• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jack by the hedge said:
Yet you claim Bildt got his theory from the two guys who climbed down the exposed car ramp.

So when did Bildt 'interrogate' those guys? And when did Bildt announce his 'theory'? To remind you, you have still not shown that your claim, repeated dozens of times, that Bildt told the press the visor caused the disaster within 16 hours, ever actually happened at all.
Click to expand...

Those two guys were fit young Estonian athletes. Their fellow athletes died in that disaster. One slept in the car to protect their valuable sports equipment. I am guessing they were up and about. They never once said the car ramp was open. They say they climbed down the car ramp stiffeners, like a ladder, before jumping into the sea when the vessel was on its beams - i.e. already irreversibly sinking - so how could the seawater have got in so voluminously and violently if the ramp was shut?
 
Vixen said:
You just do not get it. For a nation to deport someone, it has to go through the courts, and as agreed by the Rome Treaty (Criminal Law). Calling someone snatched off the street and onto a privately chartered plane a 'deportation' just to sound warm and cuddly demonstrates a wilful ignorance of what the issue is about.
Click to expand...

It was a deportation. They were denied asylum and deported. That's what happened. Yes, it went against Sweden's own rules on the matter but it was not them being "disappeared". What do you think being disappeared means Vixen?
 
Vixen said:
I am defined as such by my professional bodies, regardless of whom I work for.
Click to expand...

That doesn't remotely answer the question I asked.

Let's say that in your office you have a guy called Clive. Clive is a hard worker, but he's back office admin and not an accountant. The BBC runs a story where they mention Clive and call him Clive Smith, Chartered Accountant.

Would you consider it snobbery to take issue with the fact that the BBC labelled Clive a Chartered Accountant, yes or no?
 
MarkCorrigan said:
It was a deportation. They were denied asylum and deported. That's what happened. Yes, it went against Sweden's own rules on the matter but it was not them being "disappeared". What do you think being disappeared means Vixen?
Click to expand...

Oh dear. So if the CIA requested the UK extradite you to the USA without any court papers, you'd think that was 'just a deportation' when snatched whilst innocently strolling down Oxford Street and unceremoniously carted off to a private plane with no chance to speak to a lawyer, family of friends? Or is it only OK if that person is a certain demographic?

In any case, it was not legal no matter what heinous crime you might imagine such person may (or may not!) have committed.

BTW they were NOT 'denied asylum'. Their case was never heard.
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
63 died. Five survived. = 68.
Click to expand...

There were 63 civilian employees on board within the Police due to a trade union conference on the merger into a police authority in Stockholm. Five of them were rescued.
Click to expand...

Five of 'them' survived, 'them' of course referring to the '63' not an extra five. What do you think 'civilian' means?
 
MarkCorrigan said:
That doesn't remotely answer the question I asked.

Let's say that in your office you have a guy called Clive. Clive is a hard worker, but he's back office admin and not an accountant. The BBC runs a story where they mention Clive and call him Clive Smith, Chartered Accountant.

Would you consider it snobbery to take issue with the fact that the BBC labelled Clive a Chartered Accountant, yes or no?
Click to expand...

If they said 'Clive' represented accountants Ernst & Young, say, why not? It would not refer to him as an accountant specifically, would it?
 
Vixen said:
Why would they assume he had (a) gone into hiding and (b) that he was a crime suspect?
Click to expand...

There was a warrant for his arrest, yes? And he was an officer on the Estonia, yes? I don't know where you're getting the whole "gone into hiding" thing, nor what assumptions they needed to make.
 
Vixen said:
You really are not conversant with the political landscape of the time. Assassinated Prime Minister Olaf Palme was a 'friend' of Kurdish groups. There was a LOT of [recorded] illegal immigrants* coming across on the passenger ferries. Yes, when a passenger ferry with seventy -odd police bods is known to be travelling, who knows which terrorist group with a grudge is lying in wait. Especially as Palme's supporters are convinced Palme's assassination was a insider intelligence job and not a random middle-aged bloke. Whether this is fact or fantasy, it remains true that there were possible elements in the underworld looking for revenge, be it justified or misguided.

*IIRC a large number of illegal Kurds in a container truck had been intercepted earlier in the year.
Click to expand...

So now it was terrorists that sank the ferry?

What happened to the KGB ninjas and the submarines and the captain sinking it and the drug smugglers and the CIA?
 
Vixen said:
In the UK, the biggest union is Unison, who have their own building in Euston Road and their own workforce. So I just wanted to clarify whether these employees were trade union employees or police employees. People here are saying the group of 68 on the Estonia 'were not really police'.
Click to expand...


Good god, Vixen.

Whether these people worked for the police is irrelevant.

They were civilian administrators. They were not police officers.
How/why can you not get your head round this clear-as-day fact???
 
Vixen said:
You really are not conversant with the political landscape of the time. Assassinated Prime Minister Olaf Palme was a 'friend' of Kurdish groups. There was a LOT of [recorded] illegal immigrants* coming across on the passenger ferries. Yes, when a passenger ferry with seventy -odd police bods is known to be travelling, who knows which terrorist group with a grudge is lying in wait. Especially as Palme's supporters are convinced Palme's assassination was a insider intelligence job and not a random middle-aged bloke. Whether this is fact or fantasy, it remains true that there were possible elements in the underworld looking for revenge, be it justified or misguided.

*IIRC a large number of illegal Kurds in a container truck had been intercepted earlier in the year.
Click to expand...


LOL. Utterly pitiful. And wholly irrelevant to anything whatsoever to do with the Estonia disaster.

And your condescending first line didn't go unnoticed either.....
 
Vixen said:
Bengt Stenmark, Minister of Transport told a press conference Avo Piht had been interviewed in Turku. How do you reconcile that?
Click to expand...

There are these things called "mistakes." I know for a fact that you are quite familiar with those.

Speaking of mistakes, do you have an actual transcript of the press conference where Stenmark really said that? I'm kind of having some trust issues at the moment wrt your claims about what Swedish officials say at press conferences.

Why would the police issue an Interpol arrest warrant without satisfying themselves Piht was a survivor?
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't they? Warrants get issued for people who turn out to be dead all the time. The wheels of bureaucracy and all that.
 
Vixen said:
That just sounds like snobbery. I knew a guy who worked for UBS Investment Bank. We had a large amount of our reserve capital with UBS and periodically we'd meet to discuss its performance. He had a Physics degree from Imperial College. Investment Banker was just his job title AFAIAA.
Click to expand...


And that might very well have been because..... he was an investment banker*.

But, for example, the Head of IT at UBS London - while a fairly senior and mission-critical employee of the bank - was not an investment banker.

Do you find this concept difficult to understand, Vixen? Just as you find another similar manifestation of this concept apparently very difficult to understand: that there are people who work for police forces who are not police officers but who are civilian administrative staff?


Oh, and you'd know nothing about "snobbery", wouldn't you..... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


* And by the way, the degree subject and place of tertiary education of your contact at UBS are of limited relevance - I know plenty of senior bankers and brokers with unrelated academic backgrounds and even lower-grade academic qualifications (astonishingly, one junior banker had even been to a (former) polytechnic!!) - but it's interesting to me that you homed in on that detail as a differentiating factor....
 
Vixen said:
As I said, I am out on this topic. I don't believe you are arguing in good faith.
Click to expand...


You do realise that everyone in this thread knows full well the real reason why you're declaring "you're out" on this topic? Don't you?
 
Vixen said:
The Estonia Ferry Disaster group are authentic in trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. The second link, I believe is just a disinformation agent. These are people who deliberately weave 'conspiracy theories' to throw people of the scent and have anyone who questions the 'official version' brushed off as a CT anti-vaxxer, anti- this that and the other.
Click to expand...


Oh my word. This is beyond contempt as an attempted rationalisation. Congrats, Vixen! You've just established a new low in your contribution to the debate! :thumbsup: :D :rolleyes:
 
Vixen said:
Crew member Sillaste was the only one who had been interrogated in the presence of Supo and Säpo as of that time.

See JAIC

6.2.4 Summary of testimonies by the system engineer

The system engineer was interrogated five times.

1. 28 September 1994 in Turku by the Finnish police.


Sillaste is the ONLY one interviewed as of 28 September 1994, whilst the Three Prime Ministers were there.

The JAIC was formed later that afternoon, after the three flew to Helsinki from Turku (a 35-minute flight).


The stuff about the prime ministers chatting to other survivors in hospital is just the usual 'kissing babies' political gesture and not a proper interview. 'How are you?' 'All right?' 'Jolly good', and so on and so forth.

Learn to discern the important information from the fillers.
Click to expand...


Ah good! Vixen's educating us all in how to assess and interpret evidence!

I would usually add "Physician, heal thyself" at this point. But when it comes to Vixen's exhortation here, I can't go any further than "Quack, drink thine own snake oil".
 
Vixen said:
Google translate, soz. I think it tries to self-correct what it thinks are grammatical errors and saw Estonia as a country.
Click to expand...


Question: do you believe that using the word "soz" instead of "sorry" or "apologies" makes you feel like you haven't really had to apologise quite as much?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom