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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen said:
Your ludicrous claim 'who do you think you are discussing the Estonia accident when only persons whom I [yourself] deem worthy of discussing it should be allowed to'. You seem to hold yourself as a yardstick but when did you start thinking I should be in any way the same as you?
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No, that's not the Appeal to Authority fallacy.
 
Vixen said:
If you recall, the recommendations in the public inquiry into The Herald of Free Enterprise was that a 'gate' be provided to cover the car deck door as a safety feature. This is what the bow visor is in working practice.
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No, that is not what the bow visor is.

Herald of Free Enterprise had two horizontal opening clamshell doors, one to port and one to starboard. Estonia had a vertical pivoting visor.
Their construction and operation was completely different.
Recommendations from the enquiry made no difference to the construction of the Estonia, it was built and in operation for 7 years before the HOFE sank.

Thanks for your opinion on the EPIRB's. The JAIC however does not back you up.
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From the report

The EPIRB beacons along with some liferafts and lifejackets were found on 2 October 1994 by two Estonian fishing vessels in the vicinity of Dirhami on the north coast of Estonia. The beacons were switched off when found.
On 28 December 1994 the condition of the above EPIRBs was tested by the Finnish experts. The radio beacons proved to be in full working order when switched on.
On 24 January 1995 both EPIRBs were activated on board the Estonian icebreaker TARMO, when they worked without interval for four hours. According to the Russian COSPAS Mission control centre, whose area of responsibility includes the Estonian waters, the radio beacons were transmitting the signal in the normal way throughout the test period.
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Bjorkman would more likely claim Shakespeare said "Some are born... and... have... thrust upon them" which proves some Elizabethan babies were jet-propelled.

Then Vixen would ask how dare we contradict Shakespeare who was certainly in a better position to know whether or not rocket prams were popular in London around the turn of the 17th century than any of us are.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
But the problem is he is selectively quoting Aftonbladet.

To take the hilighted above, I'm sure you know the following quote:



Now let's say that Bjorkman instead rendered the quote as thus:



Then you went and quoted the second of the above to us. Would you really be quoting Shakespeare, or would you instead be quoting Bjorkman?
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The digital library Aftonbladet only cites highlights, also. As I do not speak Estonian or Swedish, I think it was jolly useful that Bjorkman made these articles available.
 
Vixen said:
Er, they built houses. They were master builders. In order to clear a patch of land to lay the foundations, they would invariably have to dynamite any underlying granite. Wells in remote countryside, popular for summer cottages where there is no mainline pipe, also needed to be dug out.

I have no idea what brand they used. I expect it was an assortment and I daresay they used dynamite proper.
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Why would they use dynamite? Are you sure the builders did it and not a company specialising in explosives?

How do you dig a well with dynamite?
 
Vixen said:
Your ludicrous claim 'who do you think you are discussing the Estonia accident when only persons whom I [yourself] deem worthy of discussing it should be allowed to'. You seem to hold yourself as a yardstick but when did you start thinking I should be in any way the same as you?
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That...that is not the Argument from Authority fallacy, nor is it remotely like what I've claimed.

Do you really think that's what the fallacy is? That's adorable.
 
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Vixen said:
Er, they built houses. They were master builders. In order to clear a patch of land to lay the foundations, they would invariably have to dynamite any underlying granite. Wells in remote countryside, popular for summer cottages where there is no mainline pipe, also needed to be dug out.

I have no idea what brand they used. I expect it was an assortment and I daresay they used dynamite proper.
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Why do you think dynamite has anything to do with the Estonia?
Last time you were here you ware saying it was Composition B that was used.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Why would they use dynamite? Are you sure the builders did it and not a company specialising in explosives?

How do you dig a well with dynamite?
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I suspect that Vixen's relative knew exactly as much about construction practices as Vixen does.

ETA: re the well - you blast a whacking great hole in the ground and then just fill back in the parts you don't need.
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
Merchant navy crews are not trained to control flooding in such a way. There aren't enough of them, they don't have the resources to attempt it and a merchant ship is not built like a warship.

By the time the water was up to their knees everyone would have known there was a major problem and they should have been abandoning ship.

How do you know they hadn't informed the bridge?
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Because it is not mentioned at all in the JAIC Report.

With an authoritarian captain as Andresson was said to be, it would not surprise me if the engineers would attempt to rectify a 'situation' without first asking permission as they were supposed to (Russian style leadership). This is the problem with authoritarian regimes, either a 'not my job; mentality arises because they are not allowed to use their own initiative or staff are too afraid to ask permission because of the stern attitude. The Sandhurst Army Leadership model allows your team to take initiative when appropriate.

So when Sillaste said he was down there in the swimming pool/passenger toilets fixing it at 0100 and then made his way to the Engine Control Room, I did wonder why he would do that unless there was an issue. In the Linde interview, Linde was asked several times whether he saw Sillaste 'at the bow ramp', which seems to indicate someone reported seeing him there.
 
Vixen said:
...As I don't frequent hardware outlets much I wouldn't know one brand from another...
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Vixen said:
Er, because close relatives of mine were builders. They used this stuff.
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Vixen said:
...I have no idea what brand they used. I expect it was an assortment and I daresay they used dynamite proper.
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By your own admission then, you haven't got the faintest idea what you're talking about, have you?
 
Vixen said:
Sweden admitted it.
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No, they didn't.

Please though, quote where Sweden admitted to disappearing them. I could do with a laugh.

ETA: Oh look, you dishonestly deleted your message yet again. What a noble paragon of honesty you are Vixen. Not at all cowardly.
 
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Steve said:
I suspect that Vixen's relative knew exactly as much about construction practices as Vixen does.

ETA: re the well - you blast a whacking great hole in the ground and then just fill back in the parts you don't need.
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"Bad news, folks. The land where you want us to build your house has granite underlying it."

"Granite? Oh, no!"

"That's right. Strong secure bedrock. The last thing you want underneath your building. But don't worry! We've got some dynamite that we keep inside bottles of flammable gas; that'll get rid of the granite with no trouble."

"Oh, thank goodness you're master builders!"
 
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