Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have provided links to evidence of the existence of sasquatch.

Please provide the same for the existence of the Alaskan Blue Giraffe.
This very thread contains post about the Alaskan Blue Giraffe by a poster who opinion I respect very highly. That's every bit as sound as any link you've provided.

By your rules, you now have the responsiblity to prove the non-existence of the ABG.

The Piltdown man was proven to be a hoax, and the PG film has not.

Remember? Or are you prejudiced?
No, but apparently you are. You have pretty high standards of proof about anything but your pet delusion.

(BTW: it took 41 years to prove the Piltdown man hoax. Maybe we don't have much longer to wait on Patty.)
 
Last edited:
I don't know. I sure remember seeing many depictions of hunched, brutish Neanderthals in numerous TV documentaries and evolutionary depictions, but I've heard only once or twice on recent discoveries that the original Neanderthal skeleton was an older man with physical diseases.

How about you? Is this the first you've heard of it?

Man, you're obviously not paying much attention to the state of paleoanthropology then. The brutish neanderthal went out years ago. Scientific American was running articles with reconstructions that made Neanderthals look like fairly normal humans back when I was a teenager.

So, uh, yeah, some of us have known about it for well over a decade.
 
...VERY outdated stuff snipped...
The Piltdown man was proven to be a hoax, and the PG film has not.

OK, what allowed the Piltdown skull to be proven as a fraud?

*drums rolling*

The original material was examinated by scientists not involved with the "discovery".

Regarding PGF, what is not avalaible for examination?

*drums rolling again*
Hint: The word original
*drums roll a bit more*

The ORIGINAL film!!!
TA-DAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
 
I'm sure you guys have seen this before, and sorry if it's mentioned in the rest of the thread, but there will be a repeat of a show questioning the validity of Bigfoot as a real entity on the Science Channel on January 30th. Not sure exactly what the title of the show is or what time it's on...
 
I'm sure you guys have seen this before, and sorry if it's mentioned in the rest of the thread, but there will be a repeat of a show questioning the validity of Bigfoot as a real entity on the Science Channel on January 30th. Not sure exactly what the title of the show is or what time it's on...
If the Science Channel is anything like the Discovery Channel or TLC, I wouldn't hold my breath hoping for a resolution of anything.

Although, the Discovery Channel does have me almost convinced bigfoot is real. They have him doing promos for Mythbusters and it has to be real. I'd think it was a man in a costume, but it's much better than the old Planet of the Apes costumes and we all know Hollywood is incapable of anything better than that. </sarcasm>
 
OK, let's play...

"An opportunistic species able to adapt itself to a number of different environments" and "geographic range" has little to do with overall numbers, viability in various pockets of a large overall range, or the species increase/decrease trends.

Brown bears are well known to be prolific in Alaska, yet different regions of Alaska hold very different sub-populations of bears, and this relates to both densities, size, and temperament.

Coastal areas of Alaska (Pg. 79) boast both high densities of bears as well as large average sizes of bears, and interior and arctic regions (Pg. 312) hold much lower densities and smaller bears:
...snip...

Think for a while. Species A nowdays live in areas X, Y and Z. Areas Y and Z are isolated, there are no populations of animals A living between these areas. How is this possible? Simple, species A geographic range was much broader, encompassing a continous area that contained areas X, Y and Z. Thus, the number of specimens must have been greater when the species had this larger range.

Look! The data came from a census on animal population!!! The sort of work that requires professionals to work in the field. Professionals that probably look the other way when they see a bigfoot...

Who says they are expanding? Perhaps what we are seeing is the shrinking of a formerly wide ranging species.

See? When the species had a broader range, their numbers were larger... And if it there are specimens living from Alaska to Florida, these animals must have been quite numerous. Why? Simple. Small isolated populations, without gene swapping run in to trouble very soon... So, at a certain point, North America, from Alaska to Florida was bigfoot territory. AND NOT A SINGLE SPECIMEN HAS BEEN OBTAINED!!!!

The same is true of the entire northern Pacific Rim. It is a sopping wet, acidic environment.

First of all, the soil of forest is acid. But fossils, FYI, are not "formed" or preserved in soil, but in SEDIMENTS. And this is a completely different story. It includes river and lake beds, peat (that BTW is a very acid environment, but still very good to preserve organic matter), caves, etc. And there are a lot of fossil sites of the right ages scattered across bigfoot's alleged distribution (at the present and at the past). Oh, with fossils of bears, also...

Now lets first take a look at some information on Gigantopithecus.

From http://www.uiowa.edu/~nathist/Site/gigantochinamap.html comes the following:
Early in his Gigantopithecus investigations, Ciochon noticed similarities between the giant ape and the bamboo-eating giant panda. Both animals have thick mandibles, pitted teeth, and unusually high occurences of tooth decay. Ciochon knew that large herbivores tend to favor one type of plant, so he hypothesized that Giganto fed mainly on the plentiful bamboo of Southeast Asia.

So, bigfeet eat bamboo? Bamboo are common in bigfeet habitats? The forests from Asia, rich in bamboo, where gigantopithecus lived, are similar to those were bigfeet are supposed to live in North America? And the types of vegetations they had to live within in order to expand their habitats from South Asia tropical and subtropical climates to PNW´s cold climate?

Check the map at http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/gbigmap.html

Are they the same climate and vegetation zones of the alleged bigfeet habitats? Not now, not 6 my ago.

A cave near the top of the rounded limestone tower at Liucheng, China has yielded three Gigantopithecus jawbones and nearly a thousand teeth.

See? A critter that lived at a tropical rainforest -with acid soils- had its remains fossilized. In a cave. As some say should not happen to bigfeet. And the critter in question is the very same critter that they take as the prime candidate for being the mythical beast.

From http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/giganto.html:
Based on the fossils, Gigantopithecus is now placed among the Asian apes, a descendant, along with the orangutan, of the earlier ape ancestor Sivapithecus, best known from an 8-million-year-old skull discovered in Pakistan. Its size and ape affiliation suggest Gigantopithecus was a ground-dwelling, fist-walking creature.

Fist-walking. Bigfeet are fist-walkers?

An outstanding characteristic of giant herbivores is their extreme slowness. They have no particular need of speed: their size and thick skins protect them from predators, and of course their feeding habits require no more of them than that they move from place to place as they systematically denude the landscape of vegetation. Furthermore, they are usually stuffed full of bulky food to digest, which tends to produce inertia. Gigantopithecus probably followed this pattern.

So, bigfeet are described as slow creatures? Patty was moving as decribed? Do you have any doubt that such a slumbering giant would be a piece of cake to track? Note thatwe are not talking about a short-time charge, but about a creature moving along its territory.

Now, compare the facial reconstitutions of Gigantopithecus with Patty's stills. What Patty has that Gigantopithecus does not? A nose.

Gigantopithecus appeared in the fossil record about 6.3 million years ago and thrived in Southeast Asia for five and half million years. Early humans, Homo erectus, spread into Giganto's territory about 800,000 years ago. Within half a million years of the arrival of these early humans, Giganto had gone extinct.

The key word is extinct.

Bottomline - bigfeet are not Gigantopithecus that survived extinction.
 
...Species A nowdays live in areas X, Y and Z. Areas Y and Z are isolated, there are no populations of animals A living between these areas. How is this possible? Simple, species A geographic range was much broader, encompassing a continous area that contained areas X, Y and Z. Thus, the number of specimens must have been greater when the species had this larger range.....

My point exactly.

Thank you.

...Look! The data came from a census on animal population!!! The sort of work that requires professionals to work in the field. Professionals that probably look the other way when they see a bigfoot...

Or professionals who simply have not seen the rare remnants of the sasquatch population.

And, as I have already exhaustively pointed out in the case of Southeast Alaska, the state biologists aren't in the field as much as you are desperately trying to portray.

...When the species had a broader range, their numbers were larger... And if it there are specimens living from Alaska to Florida, these animals must have been quite numerous....

Not necessarily. They were at least numerous enough to have a range that spanned the continent.

And we don't know when that was, or when the population began it's decline, but we can be relatively certain that the population is very low in most areas of the continent outside of the PNW by the number of sighting and footprint reports.

...AND NOT A SINGLE SPECIMEN HAS BEEN OBTAINED...

Let's be clear:

Not a single carcass has been confirmed to have been obtained. There are hair and feces samples which have defied identification.

...And there are a lot of fossil sites of the right ages scattered across bigfoot's alleged distribution (at the present and at the past). Oh, with fossils of bears, also...

I know of caves on Prince of Wales Island which have yielded bear fossils, but that is all.

Can you cite other fossil sites in the Pacific Northwest please?

Early in his Gigantopithecus investigations, Ciochon noticed similarities between the giant ape and the bamboo-eating giant panda. Both animals have thick mandibles, pitted teeth, and unusually high occurences of tooth decay. Ciochon knew that large herbivores tend to favor one type of plant, so he hypothesized that Giganto fed mainly on the plentiful bamboo of Southeast Asia.

So, bigfeet eat bamboo? Bamboo are common in bigfeet habitats?

No, and no.

Pandas are the only known large bear to specialize it's diet as it does, and that is the primary reason it is in danger of extinction.

Brown bears are also well known as having thick mandibles, pitted teeth, and a very high occurence of tooth decay, and their diet is not limited like the pandas.

...The forests from Asia, rich in bamboo, where gigantopithecus lived, are similar to those were bigfeet are supposed to live in North America?...

In climate, yes; very much so.

...And the types of vegetations they had to live within in order to expand their habitats from South Asia tropical and subtropical climates to PNW´s cold climate?...

With the exception of bamboo, yes; very similar.

Hubei Province, where gigantopithecus fossils were found, is at 33 degrees north latitude, well within the temperate zone:

...The north temperate zone extends from the Tropic of Cancer at about 23.5 degrees north latitude to the Arctic Circle at about 66.5 degrees north latitude.....

A cave near the top of the rounded limestone tower at Liucheng, China has yielded three Gigantopithecus jawbones and nearly a thousand teeth.
See? A critter that lived at a tropical rainforest -with acid soils- had its remains fossilized. In a cave. As some say should not happen to bigfeet. And the critter in question is the very same critter that they take as the prime candidate for being the mythical beast.

With the exception of Kushtaka Cave on Prince of Wales Island, can you name some caves in the PNW where archeological digs have occurred?

Do you know what the word "kushtaka" means?

Based on the fossils, Gigantopithecus is now placed among the Asian apes, a descendant, along with the orangutan, of the earlier ape ancestor Sivapithecus, best known from an 8-million-year-old skull discovered in Pakistan. Its size and ape affiliation suggest Gigantopithecus was a ground-dwelling, fist-walking creature.
Fist-walking. Bigfeet are fist-walkers?

No, they are not.

Can you provide some insight as to why it was theorized that gigantopithecus was a fistwalker? What evidence supports that allegation, since all that was found were teeth and a mandible?

An outstanding characteristic of giant herbivores is their extreme slowness. They have no particular need of speed: their size and thick skins protect them from predators, and of course their feeding habits require no more of them than that they move from place to place as they systematically denude the landscape of vegetation. Furthermore, they are usually stuffed full of bulky food to digest, which tends to produce inertia. Gigantopithecus probably followed this pattern.
So, bigfeet are described as slow creatures?

No, but they are described as being omnivores, not herbivores.

I can also attest that moose, the world's largest deer, or bison, North America's largest land animal, (herbivores, both) can not be described with the words "extreme slowness".

...Do you have any doubt that such a slumbering giant would be a piece of cake to track?...

Do you have any experience tracking animals, slow or fast?

I do. Lots. And I'm still not very good at it.

It's a lost art, and few today are very good at it.

I know no scientist at all who has any skill at it.

...Now, compare the facial reconstitutions of Gigantopithecus with Patty's stills. What Patty has that Gigantopithecus does not? A nose....

The gigantopithecus facial reconstructions were created without any evidence whatsoever regarding the nose.

Gigantopithecus appeared in the fossil record about 6.3 million years ago and thrived in Southeast Asia for five and half million years. Early humans, Homo erectus, spread into Giganto's territory about 800,000 years ago. Within half a million years of the arrival of these early humans, Giganto had gone extinct.
The key word is extinct.

And that key word is based on an assumption.

6.3 million minus 5.5 million equals 800,000 years.

That means that no recognized fossil record younger than 800,000 years of age has been found.

Period.

...Bottomline - bigfeet are not Gigantopithecus that survived extinction.

That is your opinion.

The facts are these:

* Thousands of people today claim they see bipedal apes in North America that are commonly described as 8' tall or more, and those sightings are most common in the Pacific Northwest region of the continent

* Hundreds of footprints supporting that eyewitness testimony have also been found

* A film of such a creature has been shot, and despite many attempts to establish it's validity/invalidity, it has still not been proven a hoax

* There is fossil record of a huge ape in China, which is a Pacific Rim nation, and estimates of it's size are very close to the reported size of the bipedal apes seen in North America

That is more evidence supporting the existence of these creatures than you can produce which indicates that they don't or can't exist.

Sorry, but thems are the facts.
 
* Thousands of people today claim they see bipedal apes in North America that are commonly described as 8' tall or more, and those sightings are most common in the Pacific Northwest region of the continent

* Hundreds of footprints supporting that eyewitness testimony have also been found

* A film of such a creature has been shot, and despite many attempts to establish it's validity/invalidity, it has still not been proven a hoax

* There is fossil record of a huge ape in China, which is a Pacific Rim nation, and estimates of it's size are very close to the reported size of the bipedal apes seen in North America

That is more evidence supporting the existence of these creatures than you can produce which indicates that they don't or can't exist.

Sorry, but thems are the facts.
Your evidence is equally valid in the support of alien shapeshifters.. Why don't you go swap stories with Beckjord..
 
Your evidence is equally valid in the support of alien shapeshifters....

No, it is not.

* The vast majority of witness reports make no mention of shapeshifting or ufo association

* The footprint record also has no association with shapeshifting or ufo's

* The PG film clearly shows an animal, not an extraterrestrial being

* The fossil record has been determined to be of an ape, not an alien

...Why don't you go swap stories with Beckjord...

Mr. Beckjord has demonstrated very bizarre, aggressive, and angry words and behavior. I think he's a very troubled man, and I disagree strongly with his theories. I have no desire to interact with him at all.

I would very much like to discuss this matter with scientists, but there doesn't seem to be any of them around here.

They are tough folks to find.
 
No, it is not.

...snip...

A quick question:

Suppose PGF shows a real bigfoot.

How could you prove bigfeet are not alien critters?
How could you prove bigfeet are actually primates?

*hint* *hint*
The evidence you need to prove its not an alien critter is the same that you need to scientifically describe it as a species.

The evidence that so far has not be presented.

Tomorrow, with a bit more of free time I'll answer your other post. Actually your questions have already been answered in the other bigfoot thread.
 
A quick question:

Suppose PGF shows a real bigfoot.

How could you prove bigfeet are not alien critters?.....

I believe the PGF shows a real bigfoot. That is what has been claimed by both men who where there at the filming, and there has been no proof that they were wrong.

The film clearly shows a creature with both human and ape qualities. Assuming it is from outer space is a stretch of the imagination, there is no evidence to support that assumption, and lots of evidence to indicate that it is what it appears to be.

I don't know how one would go about proving it, and I'm not interested in considering it. I would prefer to leave those who need the proof to get it themselves.

...How could you prove bigfeet are actually primates?...

It can't be proven from the film. The creature would have to be captured or killed and a postmortem examination performed.

However, the creature on the film is clearly not in a mammalian family other than primates.

Like it has been said:

It's either an uncatalogued animal, or it's a man in a suit.

I don't believe it was a man in a suit.
 
I would very much like to discuss this matter with scientists, but there doesn't seem to be any of them around here.

They are tough folks to find.
There we have it. Proof positive that scientists are going extinct.
 
No, it is not.

* The vast majority of witness reports make no mention of shapeshifting or ufo association

* The footprint record also has no association with shapeshifting or ufo's

* The PG film clearly shows an animal, not an extraterrestrial being

* The fossil record has been determined to be of an ape, not an alien

The vast majority of witnesses make no mention of Gigantopithecus, either.

The footprint record has no association with Gigantopithecus, either. Although, now I'm curious--what exactly would a footprint record associated with shapeshifting look like? I can't say I'm familiar enough with shapeshifter feet to scoff at the comparison. Do they only wear Nikes or something?

And you of course know what an extraterrestrial being would look like and thus can compare the two? Otherwise, on what grounds do you base the belief that aliens don't look like sasquatch?

The fossil record does indeed contains apes. However, as no Bigfoot specimen has ever been found to compare to the fossil record, what bearing does that have? We have no conclusively proof whatsoever that links Bigfoot to any fossil, unless you're sitting on a pile of Bigfoot teeth and haven't seen fit to mention it. It would be one thing if we could say conclusively that Bigfoot is related to this fossil here, and thus likely not an alien, but as it is, any comparison of Bigfoot to the fossil record is as purely speculative as those recreations of Gigantopithecus you were complaining about.
 
The vast majority of witnesses make no mention of Gigantopithecus, either.....

That's correct. The witnesses usually simply call it a huge ape, or a huge hairy man.

And gigantopithecus was a huge ape.

Period.

...The footprint record has no association with Gigantopithecus, either...

Correct.

...And you of course know what an extraterrestrial being would look like and thus can compare the two? Otherwise, on what grounds do you base the belief that aliens don't look like sasquatch?...

I don't have any idea what extraterrestrial beings would look like. Would you?

I just doubt they look like huge, bipedal apes. Call it the skeptic in me.

...The fossil record does indeed contains apes. However, as no Bigfoot specimen has ever been found to compare to the fossil record, what bearing does that have?...

Simply this:

That at least 800,000 years ago a huge ape lived in the Asian side of the Pacific,

and

that today people there as well as the North American PNW, as well as South Asia, etc., claim to see huge, bipedal apes.
 
The PG film clearly shows an animal, not an extraterrestrial being.

Ah hah! Can you back up this well defined claim, Huntster? The animal part, I mean.


* Thousands of people today claim they see bipedal apes in North America that are commonly described as 8' tall or more, and those sightings are most common in the Pacific Northwest region of the continent

* Hundreds of footprints supporting that eyewitness testimony have also been found

* A film of such a creature has been shot, and despite many attempts to establish it's validity/invalidity, it has still not been proven a hoax

Patty is nowhere near 8' tall or more.....
There is no film of "such a creature".....
Patty is no taller than your average person.....
Prominent primate experts say Patty walks like a man....

There is no reason for Patty to have feet much bigger than a human since she was not much heavier than many humans.
 
I don't have any idea what extraterrestrial beings would look like. Would you?

Then on what basis do you claim with such authority that the PGF does not depict one? For somebody who doesn't know what an alien looks like, you're real clear on the PGF not being one. Or a shapeshifter, either!

S'neat trick.

My point, which I suppose may be too subtle, is that--if I may paraphrase an old line--you and I BOTH don't believe this is any number of silly things, like aliens and shapeshifters. I just happen to believe in one less silly thing than you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom