The Seed of Origin

I still don't know why this is considered such a clever response.
It's a simplified analogy that comes from astrophysicists. I don't know how to make it much simpler for you.

AFAIK the "Big Crunch" hasn't been ruled out completely yet (https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2759-universe-might-yet-collapse-in-big-crunch/). If that happens then there will be a new Big Bang and since there is no time before the big bang, this current universe can't exist. Right?
In addition to what Cosmic Yak pointed out, that article (not journal publication) is nearly twenty years old.
 
Of course not. You prefer to hope that nobody clicks on the link to the post that you quoted. :rolleyes:

I quoted that post, with the link, several times. No-one has said I've misinterpreted you. If I have, I would suggest actually explaining what you meant, rather than this pointless snark, might be a better approach.

You can roll your eyes all you want- it won't make a valid argument.

One more point about my response to that article: I did not question its validity. What I did question was the fact that it did not have any connection to the point you were trying to make. You tried to use it as evidence that a Big Crunch would inevitably be followed by another Big Bang. The article makes no mention of any such thing. Highlighting your intellectual dishonesty is, again, nowhere near 'going full nuclear'.
 
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Your method is attempted ridicule but you are not the only one.

You made another post, where is the silencing part? :confused:

Anybody who fails to heartily and unquestioningly endorse current scientific dogma is a heretic in the eyes of many in this forum.

Anybody who tries to ridicule the scientific method by constant argument from ignorance is considered an annoying, obnoxious contrarian in the eyes of many in this forum.

FTFY
 
Guess it's time for Psion to show us the article that now concludes that an all powerful, universe creating entity is possible.
 
Just to emphasize the "queerer than we can suppose" nature of the universe, and attempt to deflate another common misapprehension regarding expansion cosmology, I'd just like to point out one of the weirder implications of the WMAP CMB map.

The common conception is of an infinite expanse of space and time, into which our universe suddenly appears compressed into a singularity, and expanding into nothingness. But the current best data points to an infinite, topologically flat universe. So while everything currently within our cosmic horizon was once compressed into an unimaginably dense and hot point, the universe itself was still infinite. An infinite expanse of unimaginable heat and density.

Delightfully weird.
 
Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Something from nothing doesn't need to be an item on the table but thinking everything came from almost nothing is essentially the same thing - magical thinking rather than physics..

Nope... There is no current non-religion based "creation of the universe" theory (lambda-CDM cosmology) that posits an "everything from nothing" scenario.

Are there any which posit "everything from almost nothing?"
 
Are there any which posit "everything from almost nothing?"

Indeed. It was my understanding that it was religion which claimed something came from nothing- that god waved his mighty hand, and suddenly everything existed.

Straw man. Science doesn't make any any such claim.

Some theists claim that all their religions argue Ex nihilo nihil fit (nothing comes from nothing) and that the god/s created the universe as we see it now from other matter/chaos already in existence - Creatio ex materia. For example...

In Greek myth traditions the ultimate origin of the universe was Okeanos, a river that circles the Earth (they understood right from the outset that the Earth is a globe). Okeanos, it is said, always existed. (Okeanos is the root of the English word "ocean").

In the Babylonian creation myth, Enuma Elish is the pre-existent chaos. It is made from fresh-water (Apsu) and salt-water (Tiamat). From Tiamat the god Marduk created Heaven and Earth.

The Sumerian creation myth, there is a pre-existing "cosmic ocean", which is personified as the goddess Nammu - "she who birthed the Heavens and the Lands".

In the Egyptian creation myths the world was created by the birth of the "primeval hill" (in some versions a "primeval lotus flower", and in some versions "a celestial cow") from a pre-creation chaos/ocean, associated with darkness and identified with the god Nun.

However, Judaism (and therefore Christianity) has the creation philosophy of Creatio ex nihilo the idea that matter is not eternal but was created by God (who is considered to be the "First Cause") at the initial cosmic moment. Modern adherents try to claim this was never the case, but some passages from the goat herders' scribbles give them away...

2 Maccabees 7:28: I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed.


The Islamic creation myth is similar to Judeo/Christian myths. God is regarded as the First Cause and absolute Creator, and that he created the world from nothing and not from pre-existing matter.

Those late two are clear posits of Creatio ex nihilo, the creation of something from nothing.

Science, on the other hand, tells the truth. It owns up to the fact that we don't know what caused the universe to begin, and that we will probably only ever be able to speculate about it. We are limited to trying to describe the first few moments of its existence.
 
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It's true that at the moment there is no scientific answer to how the universe came to be.

But there are things that can be ruled out. And a god such as imagined by any human religion is one of those things.
 
Nope... There is no current non-religion based "creation of the universe" theory (lambda-CDM cosmology) that posits an "everything from nothing" scenario.

Are there any which posit "everything from almost nothing?"


Straw man. Science doesn't make any any such claim.

Perhaps sharpen up on what strawman is.

My question "are there any current non-religion based "creation of the universe" theories which posit that the universe [everything] came into being, from [almost] nothing?" is not 'strawman'.
 
My question "are there any current non-religion based "creation of the universe" theories which posit that the universe [everything] came into being, from [almost] nothing?" is not 'strawman'.

No one who wants their theory to be taken seriously would use worthless quantifiers like "almost nothing" :)
 
Perhaps sharpen up on what strawman is.

My question "are there any current non-religion based "creation of the universe" theories which posit that the universe [everything] came into being, from [almost] nothing?" is not 'strawman'.

So you weren't implying that the scientific position is that the universe came into being from almost nothing. Good to know.
 
No one who wants their theory to be taken seriously would use worthless quantifiers like "almost nothing" :)

So you weren't implying that the scientific position is that the universe came into being from almost nothing. Good to know.

If the scientific position has it that everything within the known universe came from a single source smaller than anything known in the universe, then that is special pleading/magical thinking, which is why the OP.question;


Q: Is it possible that the infinitesimal super hot object preceding the Big Bang, didn't in fact contain the vastness of the matter within our universe but rather, was the event in which the energy from the blast resulted in the formation of Galaxies and everything else which we call "The Universe" from the field of inert material which already existed as 'space'?
Matter + Energy + Space = Time.

Which I further elaborated upon that my question has to do with the rather magical idea that everything we currently know to exist, all came from something supposedly containing all that matter, as it doesn't make physical sense.

It is like squeezing a single grape and expecting it to produce an ocean. There is no thing in nature which behaves in that manner, so why should we have a magical object being responsible for everything that exists, yet does not of itself have the same properties?

And suggesting that before physics, there was some moment where the rules of physics did not apply, may be a hangover from the idea of God-creator(s) who were equally capable of creating stuff out of nothing that actually existed.... Creatio ex nihilo

Why abandon physics just because there is a veil in front of the very point we need to observe in order to know for sure? Why not assume that there is a physical explanation rather than adhere to the idea that a magical physical object birthed non-magical physical objects?

My question is asking "why not have that the fabric of space already existing and being disturbed into shape and movement through a cataclysmic explosion which caused a ripple to occur in the fabric of space which in turn created a chain reaction re everything in the immediate blast zone, and beyond?

There is no straw-man arguing in such a proposition.
 
If the scientific position has it that everything within the known universe came from a single source smaller than anything known in the universe, then that is special pleading/magical thinking, which is why the OP.question;

Just because you don't understand cosmology doesn't make it special pleading or magical thinking.

Your pet theory is nothing more than the uninformed ramblings of an ignorant amateur. If at any time you actually come up with a testable model of this "field of inert material", or a physics model of a mechanism by which a "blast" could cause it to form "galaxies and everything else", be sure to let us know.
 
Just because you don't understand cosmology doesn't make it special pleading or magical thinking.

Well if you can explain how to fit the whole universe into an object so small that it hardly exists, I will accept the cosmology. Until then, the idea belongs with the 'goddidit' ideas.

It is a lovely magical idea but it isn't physics, because it is not physically possible.

Your pet theory is nothing more than the uninformed ramblings of an ignorant amateur.

Your slip into Ad hominem tells me differently. Let me know when you come up with any serious well though out critique of my theory...
 
Science, on the other hand, tells the truth. It owns up to the fact that we don't know what caused the universe to begin, and that we will probably only ever be able to speculate about it. We are limited to trying to describe the first few moments of its existence.
QFT.
 
If the scientific position has it that everything within the known universe came from a single source smaller than anything known in the universe, then that is special pleading/magical thinking, which is why the OP.question;




Which I further elaborated upon that my question has to do with the rather magical idea that everything we currently know to exist, all came from something supposedly containing all that matter, as it doesn't make physical sense.

It is like squeezing a single grape and expecting it to produce an ocean. There is no thing in nature which behaves in that manner, so why should we have a magical object being responsible for everything that exists, yet does not of itself have the same properties?

And suggesting that before physics, there was some moment where the rules of physics did not apply, may be a hangover from the idea of God-creator(s) who were equally capable of creating stuff out of nothing that actually existed.... Creatio ex nihilo

Why abandon physics just because there is a veil in front of the very point we need to observe in order to know for sure? Why not assume that there is a physical explanation rather than adhere to the idea that a magical physical object birthed non-magical physical objects?

My question is asking "why not have that the fabric of space already existing and being disturbed into shape and movement through a cataclysmic explosion which caused a ripple to occur in the fabric of space which in turn created a chain reaction re everything in the immediate blast zone, and beyond?

There is no straw-man arguing in such a proposition.

Lots of words where you could have just written: I don't understand even basic physics but I want my silly "The universe is sending me messages" to be true so I will lash out at Physics and Astrophysics at any given opportunity.
 
Well if you can explain how to fit the whole universe into an object so small that it hardly exists, I will accept the cosmology. Until then, the idea belongs with the 'goddidit' ideas.

It is a lovely magical idea but it isn't physics, because it is not physically possible.

Have you contacted NASA to tell them they're wrong?
How about any of the world's cosmologists or astrophysicists? Been in touch with any of them?

If you have the proof that they are wrong, why are you hiding in an obscure corner of the internet? Get out there and shake the world!
 
Well if you can explain how to fit the whole universe into an object so small that it hardly exists, I will accept the cosmology. Until then, the idea belongs with the 'goddidit' ideas.

It is a lovely magical idea but it isn't physics, because it is not physically possible.
And yet every physicist accepts it. What were your qualifications in physics, again?

Matter isn't actually solid in the way we think of it.

Your slip into Ad hominem tells me differently.
Pointing out that you are ignorant, uninformed, and an amateur regarding physics is a statement of fact, not an ad hominem. Just because you don't like to have your total lack of qualifications pointed out doesn't make the act a personal attack.

Let me know when you come up with any serious well though out critique of my theory...
You don't have a theory.

A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that has been repeatedly tested and corroborated in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment. In circumstances not amenable to experimental testing, theories are evaluated through principles of abductive reasoning. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge.

Does your "theory" meet any of those definitions?
 
What is different about an infinitesimal mysterious object and 'godidit'?

You've been told multiple times. And there would be no mystery for you if you just started reading.

At it's core it's really simple: We expect the small dense scenario because we understand how matter and energy work.
 
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The former is based on repeatable observations and has explanatory power,

Human observations and explanations. Hardly a 'powerful explanation' given our position within it...and as we can honestly admit - the explanation doesn't include what the object was or why it was there and how it could contain the whole of the material universe within it...or why we should believe the explanations of the observations are true.

To believe that explanation is true, is to believe in magical thinking - there are better ways to explain it than the one way which has become popular to the human imagination which does not want to believe that godidit but is happy to accept some other magical explanation
 
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Human observations and explanations.

Can you point to anything in science that isn't a human observation and explanation?

Seriously, is there any other kind? Keep in mind that human observations and explanations have given you the device you're currently using to instantaneously communicate your contempt of science with people all around the world.
 
Human observations and explanations. Hardly a 'powerful explanation' given our position within it...and as we can honestly admit - the explanation doesn't include what the object was or why it was there and how it could contain the whole of the material universe within it...or why we should believe the explanations of the observations are true.

Only if you ignore the enormous amount of research that contains the data and explanations to show the Big Bang is a plausible and evidence theory for the beginning of the universe.
It points to the weakness of your stance that the only way to maintain it is to pretend that science hasn't addressed these concerns.

To believe that explanation is true, is to believe in magical thinking - there are better ways to explain it than the one way which has become popular to the human imagination which does not want to believe that godidit but is happy to accept some other magical explanation


No, it's not. Magical thinking relies on supernatural powers and entities for it to work. The BB Theory does not. That you equate the two again demonstrates your deep ignorance of the work that has gone into supporting the BB Theory.
 
To believe that explanation is true, is to believe in magical thinking - there are better ways to explain it than the one way which has become popular to the human imagination which does not want to believe that godidit but is happy to accept some other magical explanation

The definition of magic is something that contradicts the observed laws of physics. The Big Bang does not contradict the observed laws of physics, in fact it was deduced from them. So you are, once again, about as wrong as it is possible to be.
 
Human observations and explanations. Hardly a 'powerful explanation' given our position within it...and as we can honestly admit - the explanation doesn't include what the object was or why it was there and how it could contain the whole of the material universe within it...or why we should believe the explanations of the observations are true.

To believe that explanation is true, is to believe in magical thinking - there are better ways to explain it than the one way which has become popular to the human imagination which does not want to believe that godidit but is happy to accept some other magical explanation

Only if you ignore the enormous amount of research that contains the data and explanations to show the Big Bang is a plausible and evidence theory for the beginning of the universe.
It points to the weakness of your stance that the only way to maintain it is to pretend that science hasn't addressed these concerns.

No, it's not. Magical thinking relies on supernatural powers and entities for it to work. The BB Theory does not. That you equate the two again demonstrates your deep ignorance of the work that has gone into supporting the BB Theory.

Indeed!

Some people (probably incorrectly) think that the Big Bang came from nothing, and they do not like this idea because they cannot conceive of how this might have happened. The facts are that we don't know that it did because we cannot know what the condition of the Universe was at T=0. However, we do have a very good idea of what it's condition was shortly afterwards..... very shortly afterwards.

At T≈10-32 seconds, the universe was smaller than the Planck distance of 10-35 metres and was at a temperature that was the equivalent of 1027 Kelvin. AIUI (others will correct me if I am wrong) the decay of the inflation field resulted in the Standard Model of particles - 12 fermions consisting of 6 quarks (up, down, charm, strange, top and bottom) and 6 Leptons (electron, electron neutrino, muon, muon neutrino, Tau, Tau neutrino) and 4 Bosons (gluon, photon, W and Z).

By T≈10-11 seconds, the universe had expanded and cooled to energy densities such that we can duplicate them by smashing atoms together in particle accelerators such as those at CERN, Fermilab and Brookhaven. The four fundamental forces (strong force, weak force, electromagnetic force, and gravitational force) which had initially been a single force, had separated.

By T≈10-12 seconds the Higgs field condensed out and the elementary particles, which before then had been massless and were travelling at C, began to interact with the Higgs Field, and it was this interaction that gave them mass.

So, how do we know all this? We know because it has been tested and tested and tested in particle acceleartors all over the world, over and over again, and observations made by scientific instruments have yielded results that have been repeated, and repeated over and over again. Even when they have yielded new discoveries and never before seen results, those results have not conflicted with previous results, they have added to our knowledge and often confirmed long held theories. That's what happened when the Higgs Boson was finally discovered in 2012... it confirmed a theory that had been first proposed almost 50 years earlier in 1964!!!

This is not "magical thinking". This is the rigorously tested, repeatable, falsifiable and observed scientific evidence we have that the universe began according to the ΛCDM model. Its the best evidence we have.

Now, what is the evidence for goddidit? Well, its nothing more than the 2000 year-old fantastical scribblings of a few itinerant goat herders with vivid imaginations - not testable, not observable, not falsifiable! The very definition of magical thinking.
 
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This is not "magical thinking". This is the rigorously tested, repeatable, falsifiable and observed scientific evidence we have that the universe began according to the ΛCDM model. Its the best evidence we have.

The evidence is not being questioned. What is being questioned has to do with the interpretation of the evidence, which leads to the magical notions of an infinitesimal object existing which contains everything which exists, and spews that into itself and in doing so, expands and becomes the universe we currently observe.

It is all very well to honestly state that we don't know where such an object came from, but is it honest to claim that such an object actually ever existed and did what the theories claim, when there are other ways in which to interpret the evidence which do not require such magical notions by way of explaining/interpreting the evidence?
 
The evidence is not being questioned. What is being questioned has to do with the interpretation of the evidence, which leads to the magical notions of an infinitesimal object existing which contains everything which exists, and spews that into itself and in doing so, expands and becomes the universe we currently observe.

It is all very well to honestly state that we don't know where such an object came from, but is it honest to claim that such an object actually ever existed and did what the theories claim, when there are other ways in which to interpret the evidence which do not require such magical notions by way of explaining/interpreting the evidence?

I WANT THOSE EGGHEADS TO LEAVE ROOM FOR A GOD OF THE GAPS, WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...:)
 

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