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Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

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mgidm86 said:
JoeMorgue said:
Here's one of the things we DO have to account for.

America does have a massive murder rate even if you take guns away.

If we get some kind of sane gun laws based someone is sooner or later going to go on a stabbing spree or drive a car into a crowd or something and you know, you just know the gun nuts are going to use that as "proof" that gun control doesn't do anything even if overall rates go down. You know they'll do it. You can probably already imagine the... well not arguments but the "LOL good thing he didn't have a gun hardy hardy har" trolling they will do.

This is America. You take away handguns (8029 murders), Firearms, Unspecified (4863 murders), Knives (1739 murders), Other weapons (983), Rifles (455), Clubs/Hammers (393), Shotguns (223), Narcotics (113), Fire (106), Asphyxiation (71), Strangulation (58), Poison (16), Drowning (5), and Explosives (4) we would still have 662 murders a year in America, which is still more murders than Japan, Spain, Italy, Australia, Sweden, Israel, the Netherlands, Finland, Greece, Scotland, Norway or many, many, many, many other countries have.

Americans beat each other to death with their bare hands at a murder rate greater than most countries.

We have both a gun problem AND a murder problem and the gun people WILL dishonestly try and argue that not solving the murder problem means we shouldn't try and solve the gun problem.

We need to go ahead and figure out how we are going to address that fallacious counter-argument now.


*2020 stats, last year I can find them broken down by weapon used
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I look at those numbers and I see a very clear problem with guns.

What did I quote yesterday....around 75% of all murders are with a gun? Your numbers seem to agree. I look up and I see around 13,000 murders with guns and a few thousand "other".

Sure some will find another way to kill, but I bet most of them would have never happened. Eliminating guns would demolish that number. Guns make it too easy.

I guess one problem with America is that people can see those numbers and say it isn't as big a problem as we all think it is. WTF?

ETA:
66% of gun deaths are suicides. Didn't see that on the list. That's a mighty big number.

It's easy to kill with a gun, even accidentally. How many innocent kids would be killed in a drive-by knifing?
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There is a clear correlation with poverty

But the US is an outlier when you compare to other countries with similar per capita GDP ETA: Remember the Y axis is logarithmic, so The next country with a similar income has 3.5x lower homicide rate, and the next country with a similar homicide rate has less than half the per capita (Kazakhstan with a GDP of 23850 and 4.85)




Data from OurWorldInData

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/maddison-data-gdp-per-capita-in-2011us-single-benchmark?tab=table

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-number-of-deaths-by-cause?tab=table


picture.php


I used 2015 data because there is a delay in reporting data and some later years seem to be missing for many countries
 
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mgidm86 said:
Sure some will find another way to kill, but I bet most of them would have never happened. Eliminating guns would demolish that number. Guns make it too easy.


ETA:
66% of gun deaths are suicides. Didn't see that on the list. That's a mighty big number.
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Yep. My grandmother shot her cheating husband when he was walking out on her because she had a .22 pistol handy. When she realized what she'd done, she turned the gun on herself. She was 43. My teenage aunt found them both. She never really got over it.
 
Ranb said:
I've read this claim before and no one was willing to back it up. For example, a poll that shows a majority of people supporting something like universal bkgd checks for gun sales. But then the bill people are talking about is more than bkgd checks.

It seems to me that most gun control bills are made bloated with additional requirements so that they will not pass.

Can you show me a gun control bill that has a poll which shows 60% support of the population?
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I don't know about the contents of specific bills, but a majority of Americans are proven to support much tougher gun laws. They don't pass solely because Repubs, often from rural states, always block them no matter what they say.
Universal background checks and red flag laws are widely supported by the public. An ABC News/Washington Post poll conducted in September 2019 found 89% support for universal background checks and 86% support for red flag laws.

There was broad bipartisan support, as well; mandatory background checks and red flag laws won support from at least eight in 10 Republicans and conservatives, and as many or more of all others, the poll found.

An April 2021 Quinnipiac University poll on gun laws similarly found overwhelming support for requiring background checks for all gun buyers (89%). Support was similarly high among Republicans (84%).

There was less broad support for other gun control measures. The 2019 ABC News/Washington Post poll found that six in 10 support banning high-capacity ammunition clips and 56% support banning the sale of assault weapons. Support for an assault weapons ban varied greatly along political lines, with 81% of Democrats, 55% of independents and 33% of Republicans in favor.

Additionally, the poll found that 52% support a mandatory buyback program in which the government would require owners to turn in their assault weapons in exchange for payment. The 2021 Quinnipiac University poll was similarly divided on other gun control measures, with 52% support for a nationwide ban on the sale of assault weapons and 51% support for a nationwide ban on sale of high-capacity ammunition magazines that hold more than 10 bullets.
Click to expand...
https://abcnews.go.com/US/numbers-show-americans-opinions-gun-control-measures/story?id=84995468
https://poll.qu.edu/Poll-Release?releaseid=3809
 
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TheGoldcountry said:
Ted Cruz isn't an idiot. He's a scumbag who's willing to spread lies for popularity. I'd call that sociopathic.
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I'd say he's both an idiot and a scumbag; they're not mutually exclusive. You'd have go be an idiot to take your family to Cancun while the people you supposedly represent in the Senate are freezing their butts off in a blizzard and without electricity for days.
 
'Criminals like these won't follow gun laws. Well, besides the age limits because they all did end up following that law, but laws can't help because criminals don't follow them. Besides the ones they do. And the ones that make it more difficult for them because the non-criminals follow them.' - NRA probably.
 
Bob001 said:
I don't know about the contents of specific bills,
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You are saying exactly what I was talking about above. The public wants restrictions, a bill appears that may or may not apply to what they want.

A good example is an initiative (I-594) that appeared on the WA ballot. It was for universal bkgd checks. That sounds like what the "people said they wanted in the polls". Even the Secretary of State's summary of the bill sounded good.

But it was loaded down with crap that extended far beyond gun sales. This was something only the writers of the initiative thought was a good idea. The initiative passed. But bills were introduced to repeal some of the more extreme measures included in it.

Unless a person can show a bill number and a poll, I'm just going to assume that they are making up stuff, again. This is a skeptics forum after all.
 
Ranb said:
You are saying exactly what I was talking about above. The public wants restrictions, a bill appears that may or may not apply to what they want.

A good example is an initiative (I-594) that appeared on the WA ballot. It was for universal bkgd checks. That sounds like what the "people said they wanted in the polls". Even the Secretary of State's summary of the bill sounded good.

But it was loaded down with crap that extended far beyond gun sales. This was something only the writers of the initiative thought was a good idea. The initiative passed. But bills were introduced to repeal some of the more extreme measures included in it.

Unless a person can show a bill number and a poll, I'm just going to assume that they are making up stuff, again. This is a skeptics forum after all.
Click to expand...


But what are you calling crap? The bill passed, after all. Maybe the public liked all of it. Maybe the people trying to overturn "extreme measures" were really right-wing Repubs paid off by the gun industry.

Maybe proposals like that should be treated as referendums, without a role for the legislature at all.
 
Garrison said:
So once you turn all the schools into fortified bunkers what will be the Republicans plan when this dismally fails to save children in the next mass shooting? Replace all the school buses with APCs when some lunatic hoses one down with automatic rifle fire? Demolish any surrounding building taller than the school in case of a sniper? have teachers wear full SWAT gear when going to and from the car park? If one of these ******** can't get into the school they will target a playground or a school sporting event. This miserable insistence on lying about the content of the 2nd Amendment and refusal to entertain the idea that just maybe making people wait a couple of days to get their shiny new toy while the dealer makes sure they aren't a felon or a domestic abuser or otherwise raising a huge red flag, is beyond disgusting.
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This is really important. No matter how much you harden the target, you can't prevent an attack on crowds outside the target. School buses unload 50 kids at a time outside the school. I'm surprised that there has never been an attack on the hundreds of people waiting in multiple lines to pass through the security check at a busy airport. A downtown NYC subway stop might have hundreds of people waiting for trains during rush hour. The only rational solution is to restrict firearms. And ammunition, which nobody seems to be talking about. If cartridges were heavily taxed and hard to find, an empty AR15 wouldn't be much of a threat.
 

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Bob001 said:
But what are you calling crap? The bill passed, after all. Maybe the public liked all of it. Maybe the people trying to overturn "extreme measures" were really right-wing Repubs paid off by the gun industry.

Maybe proposals like that should be treated as referendums, without a role for the legislature at all.
Click to expand...

I was calling I-594 crap. Do you really think it is a good idea that you need a bkgd check prior to living in an apartment with a gun owner? That is the kind of crap I was talking about.

Based on my lobbying efforts, the gun industry and the NRA do not give a damn about about gun bills in WA. Try again.
 
Oh, good. I was worried that this thread wouldn't include information on Washington gun laws. My world will be incomplete unless it also includes extensive information about silencers.
 
Ranb said:
I was calling I-594 crap. Do you really think it is a good idea that you need a bkgd check prior to living in an apartment with a gun owner? That is the kind of crap I was talking about.
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Yes. Yes I do.

How do I know that they're not going to be the next Stephen Paddock? Trust and hope for the best? Not a ******* chance!

I would not move into an apartment with someone I don't know if I knew they had guns that were not locked away in a gun safe. But then, I live in a country where....

- the possession and use of arms is a privilege not a right.
- you must have a licence for which you must pass a safety exam to own firearms.
- your health practitioner is informed by Police that you have been issued with a firearms licence.
- it is illegal to own or be in possession of a handgun.
- it is illegal to own or be in possession of a military style semi-automatic like an AR15 or similar.
- the use of any firearm for personal protection is illegal.
- your firearms and ammunition storage facilities are inspected by a member of the Police to ensure compliance with the requirements for the secure storage of firearms and ammunition

.....and most importantly

- you have to show that you are a fit and proper person before you can own a firearm. Failing any of the following criteria will result in non-issuance or revocation of your firearms licence.

Fit and proper person to possess firearm or airgun

(1) For the purposes of this Act, a member of the Police may find a person is not a fit and proper person to be in possession of a firearm or an airgun if the member of the Police is satisfied that 1 or more of the following circumstances exist:

(a) the person is charged with or has been convicted of an offence in New Zealand or overseas that is punishable by a term of imprisonment (including, but not limited to, an offence involving violence, drugs, or alcohol):

(b) the person is charged with or has been convicted of an offence under this Act:

(c) the person is charged with or has been convicted of an offence against—
(i) section 231A of the Crimes Act 1961; or
(ii) the Game Animal Council Act 2013; or
(iii) the Wildlife Act 1953; or
(iv)the Wild Animal Control Act 1977:​

(d) the person has, or has had at any time, a temporary protection order made against them under—
(i) section 79 of the Family Violence Act 2018; or
(ii) section 14 of the Domestic Violence Act 1995:

(e) the person has inflicted, or is inflicting, family violence against another person and that other person has grounds under the Family Violence Act 2018 to apply for a protection order in respect of that violence:

(f) the person has, or has had at any time, a restraining order made against them under the Harassment Act 1997:

(g) the person has engaged in any conduct involving non-compliance with any requirements of—
(i) this Act; or
(ii) any regulations made under this Act; or
(iii) any conditions to which a permit, licence, or endorsement previously issued to the person under this Act was subject​

(h) the person shows, or has recently shown, symptoms of a mental or physical illness or injury that may adversely affect their ability to safely possess firearms:

(i) the person abuses alcohol, or is dependent on alcohol, to an extent that affects detrimentally their judgement or behaviour:

(j) the person uses drugs (illegal or legal) in a way that affects detrimentally their judgement or behaviour:

(k) the person is a member of, or has close affiliations with, a gang or an organised criminal group:

(l) the person has shown patterns of behaviour demonstrating a tendency to exhibit, encourage, or promote violence, hatred, or extremism:

(m) the person has been assessed as a risk to national security:​

Many of these are new laws that were passed in the wake of the 2019 Christchurch Mosque shootings. These additions had overwhelming public support (94%) and passed through our 120 seat parliament 119-1.
 
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