theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)
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Nope. Gay rights did not revolve around making up pseudoscientific theories of sex and gender and enforcing them on everyone by framing opposition to them as bigotry.
The sexual orientation equivalent would be:
- stating that the definitions of 'man' and 'woman' don't refer to biological sex but are 'somebody attracted to women/men' respectively, so that gay men are not men and lesbians are not women since their orientation doesn't align with that assigned to them at birth on the basis of their sex
- replacing sex segregated spaces with sexual orientation segregated spaces to validate everyone's sexual orientation (everyone attracted to men go to one space and everyone attracted to women go to the other, and bisexual people choose based on which way they lean from day to day)
- promoting the idea that changing one's sexual characteristics to 'match' one's sexual orientation is 'sexual orientation affirming therapy'
- claiming that one's sexual orientation is part of one's sex, so that a gay man is less male than a straight man and a lesbian less female than a straight woman, and making up pseudoscientific theories of sex being a spectrum to 'explain' homosexuality as some kind of intersex condition
- defining therapy intended to help confused gay adolescents to accept and be happy with their biological sex as 'conversion therapy' for sexual orientation
- encouraging children perceived as gay onto an early medical pathway to change their sexual characteristics to 'match' their orientation
Fortunately, none of this happened.
Carry on though, it's entertaining.
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Francesca R
Girl
Francesca R
Girl
Please post evidence of this happening. Or, stick to the facts.
If you were bullied you would probably be able to seek protection from the member agreement. But there is no evidence that anyone has broken any rules in engaging with you. So you are setting up a fake-news pretext to stop replying in this thread, to seek to avoid the real reason which is that you're not making your case as well as you wished.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
What makes you say prisons aren't sex segregated?
Is it because you think sex and gender are the same thing?
Is it because you don't think binary sex and sexual dimorphism in mammals is real?
Is it because you think sex is real, and distinct from gender, and the distinction is important, and that prisons really are gender-segregated and not sex-segregated?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Can we safely assume you now affirm "someone’s sex or gender is properly understood to be the same as their gender identity" since only redneck hillbillies would question this novel and progressive idea?
stanfr
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I don't care. I wasn't citing it to prove her transphobia, I was just citing it to show it talks about TERFs...that is all!
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I'm going to quote the Oklahoma lawsuit a little bit more because it seems to me they've summed up what the gender critical folks call "gender ideology" in just two paragraphs.
Here they are:
Here they are:
I'd be interested in hearing from you folks whether these statements strike you as demonstrable in the way that scientific claims typically are, or whether they are something else, such as statements of what people ought to believe in or value.
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stanfr
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Fair enough, I am pleased you know what it is like to be "set upon"
I think you are being a bit presumptuous in declaring why people left though.
And your last sentence verifies my point--you seem to enjoy chewing. I prefer digesting.
And it seems a bit disingenuous and hypocritical to claim you are on the side of "reality" when the reality is that laws and viewpoints are changing. And the "side" you are on just happens to coincide with the side that truly denies reality--the Trumpists and right-wing extremists. The religious fanatics and wooists.
Not saying they are wrong--they could be right for the wrong reasons--but it is an interesting correlation.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
It's wild how quickly "TERF" entered trans-activist jargon as a pejorative, and as a keyword for unnecessary bias against anyone who expresses dissent from their agenda. You'll be throwing it around yourself pretty soon, if you don't watch out!
stanfr
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That's an excellent question--I am far from an expert on the subject but I don't think the science is complete or settled enough to make definitive conclusions, but I bet a lot more of this science is gonna be done thanks to the policy debate.
stanfr
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stanfr
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I can't go through 500 pages of this thread so if you could repost that evidence I would appreciate it. Please and thank you!
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I'd be interested in their citations for that "medical consensus".
Good question. Apropos of which, y'all might be interested in an oldish essay at Quillette by philosopher Michael Robillard, this passage in particular:
https://archive.ph/4e2n0
That's largely the problem with the "philosophy" of gender ideologues - there are no objective correlates to their "definitions" for "male" and "female" - entirely subjective and therefore mostly if not entirely meaningless; useless or worse than useless. Hence the benefits of and justifications for the biological definitions which specify necessary and sufficient conditions for category membership, i.e., functional gonads of either of two types.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I am a biologist. I have worked in the biological sciences my entire life. I can assure you that the position that there are exactly two sexes and that mammals cannot change the sex their chromosomes code them to be is reality.
Law is irrelevant to this. If Texas (or wherever) can legislate that pi is exactly equal to three, then that demonstrates that one. Viewpoints may vary, but the fact that sex is binary and (in mammals) is immutable remains, irrespective of viewpoints.
I'm seriously tired of people declaring that because some people 3,000 miles away whose political position the speaker (and I) disagree with seem to espouse a position similar to mine on this issue, therefore I shoud accept that I'm wrong. Yes, it's Godwinning the thread, but would you tell vegetarians that they should abandon their position because it just happens to coincide with Hitler's position?
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Do you think there's a similar "medical consensus" about body integrity identity? That all human beings have a body identity—the number of limbs or other anatomical features the individual knows themself to have?
JihadJane
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Is it a correlation or is it just that "Trumpists" have no reason to pretend that men can be women? It would be the same if the "progressive" fad of the day was based on the assertion that trees are actually mushrooms.
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Don't know about "bigotry", but more than a few "gay rights" activists are still peddling quite "pseudoscientific theories of sex". For instance, see an otherwise sensible article at The Line by a gay man, Allan Stratton:
https://theline.substack.com/p/allan-stratton-a-call-for-nuance
He starts off well by arguing that:
But then shoots himself in the foot - repeatedly - by arguing or endorsing the view that people can actually change sex, by engaging in the same "academic redefinitions of language" that he has decried:
And he's done likewise in an article or two at Quillette:
https://archive.ph/qlJOb
Bonus reference there to "TERFS" for those keeping score ...
Maybe just sloppy usage, an inadvertent misuse. But, as Francis Bacon once cogently put it, "shoddy and inept uses of language lays siege to the intellect in wondrous ways". Truer words were never spoken ...
Moot on the "never happened", although this may be more a case of the depredations of gender ideologues than of gay activists, even if the distinction is a bit murky. But consider this case of Wikipedia - more or less a hive of scum and villainy when comes to anything to do with gender - doing precisely that:
https://voidifremoved.substack.com/p/the-quiet-erasure-of-same-sex-attraction
As Arte Johnson used to say, "Veddy interesting. But stupid". Largely the result of the fact that, as Carl Sagan argued with some justification, most of us are scientifically illiterate - being charitable.
The Atheist
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You're selling me short - there must be 1000 pages by now.
I don't know where it either and it's not in the first couple of dozen Google returnse, so these should cover it adequately:
https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...e-debate-over-transgender-inmates-karen-white
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ater-risk-sexual-assault-transgender-inmates/
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
From the latter:
So that is where you got the 'five times as much from'. What you didn't tell us was the next paragraph:
Think about it. Seven sexual assaults over four years...out of how many female prisoners and how many transwomen prisoners...?
Fact is, this is rooted in the Victorian belief that only men are capable of sex crimes. Only men were homosexuals (and thus, being a lesbian was never a criminal offence). Only men can rape. It is well known that female prisons are full of aggressive lesbians who are just as likely to impose themselves on other prisoners. As an example, a young man was recently convicted of being a sex criminal and placed on the sex offenders register, just for touching some woman's arm. These days, sexual assault can simply mean kissing someone or touching them in any way, not necessarily even flesh or a naughty bit. We saw how a senior member of the royal family had to pay £12m in compensation for supposedly 'dating' a prostitute aged 17 even though she was above age of consent in England. So it is not really a surprise that if a transwoman does it it is a 'sexual assault' whereas if the approach comes from another woman, it is laughed off as 'giving someone a sisterly hug' or 'just being friendly'.
Francesca R
Girl
It's a standard ad-hominem argument. "look at [a selected subset of] the people who think that; don't look at what they think". It avoids arguing the merits of the issue and as such is a red flag. I am sure Vladimir Putin does not think transwomen are women, and is not hurrying to bestow protections or privileges on them.
On a forum that champions critical thinking, one might suppose that there is very little time for arguing methods like this. However the truth is that folks use ad-hom when it suits them and eschew it when it doesn't.
I will concede that it is interesting though. The trans issue seems to have a unique ability to disrupt the political shorthand of give me the complete list of what my side supports and opposes and I'm sure I will be comfortable signing up to all of them. That is a "good" thing in itself because that is what issues ought to do anyway, IE be debated on their own merits. But most of the time it does not work that way, which I tend to think is societal laziness of a sort.
One could equally note that it is interesting that the side that promotes trans rights includes males who would subvert the rights and protections of females to their whim, whose remedy for those women who object is to threaten to beat, rape and kill them, and to encourage them to be hated by society and vilified and cancelled, and that they overwhelmingly direct their fire at female objectors, not male objectors in this regard. Indeed I and others have noted this over the years.
Manger Douse
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Comments Vixen?
Manger Douse
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I'll play: "Miscarriage of justice" (that a group happy to tell rape victims they need more rape are curiously silent on)
Rolfe
Adult human female
I understand that men with Gender Recognition Certificates are counted as women for the purpose of these statistics, so nobody really knows if the 3.3% is actually women or not. Moreover, if you look at individual cases of women convicted of sex offences you discover that a pretty high proportion of them have committed the offence as accomplices of male offenders - Myra Hindley-style. The lone woman committing sex offences is a pretty rare bird.
??? Give us a clue?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
https://archive.ph/d56gf
ETA: Back to the drawing board.
ETA2: https://www.scribd.com/article/592485940/Age-Of-Uncertainty
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
You're allowed to post short excerpts of copyrighted material. Have you not even paid for a subscription yourself?
Also, if the article in question cites publicly-available data, you can just cite the data itself from its original source, and summarize the article's argument in your own words.
It's not rocket surgery. Quit the passive-aggressive complaints and get on with whatever substantive argument you're trying to make.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Just looking at this article on the same site:
'Nick was at his third birthday party when he realised he was a boy in a girl’s body. “I had a butterfly cake. I vividly remember looking at the cake and thinking, ‘I don’t like the look of this. It’s all pink and girlie.”'
'Nick was at his third birthday party when he realised he was a boy in a girl’s body. “I had a butterfly cake. I vividly remember looking at the cake and thinking, ‘I don’t like the look of this. It’s all pink and girlie.”'
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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Not liking girlie things doesn't make you a boy. Tomboys are still girls.
“I’d do anything to be a boy,” he says. “I get injections to be a boy, but I hate injections. I’m going to go this far just to be me. Some people think that being LGBTQ+ is a choice, that one day we wake up and say, ‘I think I’m trans, I think I’m a boy and I’m just going to become a boy.’ They think one day people can just decide they are this or that. But it’s a feeling you feel deep down, that this is what I am. It is not a choice.”
This is sad for multiple reasons. First off, this person will never actually be a boy. Second, the pain of the injections will never, ever stop unless they detransition, but even more importantly, the pain of the injections is the least of the medical problems they will face. The other side effects, which haven't kicked in yet but will, are going to be far, far worse. And lastly, while their feelings may not be a choice, medical intervention very much is. And it doesn't sound like this person has a clue about the ramifications of that intervention.
Now, is medical transition right for this person? Maybe, I don't know, and from the outside I don't think we can know. But even if it is, they still don't seem to have any clue about what it really entails. Or if they do, then the author has failed to capture those difficulties in their profile, which may lead other people who are considering transition to think it's simpler than it really is.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
"They think one day people can just decide they are this or that. But it’s a feeling you feel deep down, that this is what I am. It is not a choice."
I still think Body Integrity Identity Disorder is the closest and most instructive parallel.
I still think Body Integrity Identity Disorder is the closest and most instructive parallel.
“I’d do anything to be a boy,” he says. “I get injections to be a boy, but I hate injections. I’m going to go this far just to be me. Some people think that being LGBTQ+ is a choice, that one day we wake up and say, ‘I think I’m trans, I think I’m a boy and I’m just going to become a boy.’ They think one day people can just decide they are this or that. But it’s a feeling you feel deep down, that this is what I am. It is not a choice.”
Also because children do not talk like that off their own bat. Somebody else suggested those words. And up until around 5 - 6 years old, a high percentage of children think that stereotypes are what determine whether a child is a boy or a girl (e.g. a boy who puts on a dress turns into a girl). It's up to adults to help educate them out of this, not reinforce stereotypical thinking.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I remember in primary school the class being asked how you tell the difference between a boy and a girl. Proudly, I put up my hand and said, boys have short hair. Everybody laughed at me, including the teacher.
I had genuinely believed there was a difference in the way boys' hair grew that it could be cut like that, and it couldn't be cut like that in a girl. It was explained to me with some humour that this was incorrect.
I have no idea what the right answer was, given that we'd have been about seven. Maybe I missed some actual sex education through being so embarrassed at my mistake.
I had genuinely believed there was a difference in the way boys' hair grew that it could be cut like that, and it couldn't be cut like that in a girl. It was explained to me with some humour that this was incorrect.
I have no idea what the right answer was, given that we'd have been about seven. Maybe I missed some actual sex education through being so embarrassed at my mistake.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
An age-appropriate circumlocutory answer may've been that the boys have access to urinals.
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
An age-appropriate circumlocutory answer may've been that the boys have access to urinals.
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Right now, today? Sure. But I have no idea what the right answer would have been in the late 1970s, when I was second grade. "Boys have penises and girls don't" was almost certainly not it, though.
The Atheist
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That smacks of exactly the same nonsense christian babble when they say how their little child loves Jesus so much.
They only ever heard of Jesus because the idiot parents ram it down their throat, and I do not buy for a second that children that age even think of gender.
When my son went to kindergarten almost all the kids thought he was a girl because he had long hair.
There might be something in all that, though. He still has long hair and an awful lot of girls stay the night with him, so I suspect he's not just transgender, but a massive dyke with it.
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