Loose Change

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Gosh, I'll try parsing this attempt at "English:"
geggy said:
Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?
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geg, my sweet, you're the last person I know to be going on about evidence. Nevertheless, we know that people frequently use simile and allusion when communicating. "Sounds like," "feels like," "smells like," and any number of similar descriptive short cuts are simple devices that happen to be effective. Doesn't mean that if something "tastes like" chicken it is chicken.

You, nor any of your cult brothers, have presented evidence there were bombs at the WTC. Evidence. Not what a video "looks like."

Now off with you to the next session with your "wife." And be sure to carry your cell phone.
 
geggy said:
There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, very much like that one.
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there is no stupid questions, just stupid people

geggy said:
Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?
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did you hear that? thats my head exploding from this grammatical nightmare. it wasn't a controlled demoltion, my brain was built to sustain the impact of bad grammar, i'm actually surprised it didnt explode as soon as i read this but after an hour or so there was a catastrophic collapse. The blood shooting out of my ears is not from squibs, its from cerebral pancaking.
 
The LC forum mods seem to have backed off a bit if anyone wants in. Maybe because they've gotten more traffic--harder to police--or maybe because they've been getting bad "press" about their heavy-handedness. They have a dedicated SKEPTICS Forum, which I'm mostly sticking to for the time being.

Anyway, it's much easier to sharpen your teeth over there than it is here, where we only get to fight over scraps like geggy.
 
kookbreaker said:
Interesting, suddenly 'Terrorcell' has become a tiny, weak, voice of reason in that thread. The moderators, meanwhile, are still playing their usual stupid games.
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OMFG I do believe you're right -- I think I see what might be a glimmer of reason starting to flicker over there.
 
As for trained emergency personnel not being like the rest of us, it's worth looking into the interviews and testimony of EMT Patricia Ondrovic. She was outside her ambulance on Vesey street near WTC 6 when the south tower collapsed. Just before that collapse, a supervisor announced that there might be an incoming plane. This was a big surprise to her, since she had thought the damage to the towers was caused by bombs. Here are some of the things she remembers as she ran for her life:

–She tried to enter the lobby of WTC 6 but was told by security to get away. She saw a series of at least six flashes go off along the ceiling of the WTC 6 lobby, accompanied by popping noises.

–She believed that those flashes were demolitions explosives going off.

–She ran north and west as at least three parked cars exploded around her, one of them setting her coat on fire.

-While in North Park she believed she saw an airplane explode in a fireball over New Jersey.

– She hooked up with another ambulance about 15 blocks north and told the driver to take them out of the city, to drive to Westchester.

– A supervisor stopped the ambulance and told it to turn back and go towards the WTC. She tried to refuse.

–She had a panic attack and was having trouble breatihing from all the dust she had inhaled, and was treated in the back of the ambulance, then taken to St. Vincent's Medical Center.

–It wasn't until a week later that she learned it was the collapse of the south tower she had been running from. She had thought it was a bomb.

That's what terror can do, even to someone who deals with life-and-death emergencies on a daily basis.
 
Huntsman said:
Oddly enough, it's most damaging if dispersed in an aerosol mist and ignited, producing what's known as a Fuel-Air Explosive (FAE).

Not sure if you're familiar with explosive ratings, but they each are associated with an RF value. The RF value is a comparison of their relative explosive force. By definition, TNT has an RF of 1. Black powder is something like .5 (so 2 lbs of black powder is equivalent to 1 pound of TNT). C-4 checks in about 1.3 or 1.4 (can't recall which).

FAE's rated with an RF value clock in around 5. Both Jet Fuel and Gasoline can highly explosive, in the right conditions.
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I don't know the first thing about physics, let alone the RF scale. But I wonder if the impact of the planes into the WTC created a vapor explosion - if it did, was it considered in the NIST report? I suppose not, actually, given how long the towers remained standing.
 
Polaris said:
I don't know the first thing about physics, let alone the RF scale. But I wonder if the impact of the planes into the WTC created a vapor explosion - if it did, was it considered in the NIST report? I suppose not, actually, given how long the towers remained standing.
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Well, there's the question of what caused the explosion in the freight elevator shaft that also tore up the north tower lobby and created a soot cloud. Witnesses dozens of floors below the impact site reported smelling kerosene (commercial jet fuel is basically kerosene). It seems likely that liquid fuel poured down the elevator shaft and its vapors ignited. There's also the possiblilty the the fireball from the initial impact traveled down the shaft, but I don't know how likely it is that it would make it that far down.
 
Gravy said:
As for trained emergency personnel not being like the rest of us, it's worth looking into the interviews and testimony of EMT Patricia Ondrovic. She was outside her ambulance on Vesey street near WTC 6 when the south tower collapsed. Just before that collapse, a supervisor announced that there might be an incoming plane. This was a big surprise to her, since she had thought the damage to the towers was caused by bombs. Here are some of the things she remembers as she ran for her life:

–She tried to enter the lobby of WTC 6 but was told by security to get away. She saw a series of at least six flashes go off along the ceiling of the WTC 6 lobby, accompanied by popping noises.

–She believed that those flashes were demolitions explosives going off.

–She ran north and west as at least three parked cars exploded around her, one of them setting her coat on fire.

-While in North Park she believed she saw an airplane explode in a fireball over New Jersey.

– She hooked up with another ambulance about 15 blocks north and told the driver to take them out of the city, to drive to Westchester.

– A supervisor stopped the ambulance and told it to turn back and go towards the WTC. She tried to refuse.

–She had a panic attack and was having trouble breatihing from all the dust she had inhaled, and was treated in the back of the ambulance, then taken to St. Vincent's Medical Center.

–It wasn't until a week later that she learned it was the collapse of the south tower she had been running from. She had thought it was a bomb.

That's what terror can do, even to someone who deals with life-and-death emergencies on a daily basis.
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What an impressive story. Poor woman, I can't imagine what she lived through.

That's what sickens me about the CTs, they have no regards for these people who lived first hand the terror. They say they do, that they're just after the "Truth", but the truth is that these attacks exactly did what they were designed to do: terrorise people and create chaos. To this day, thanks to the CTs, the chaos continues.
 
chipmunk stew said:
Anyway, it's much easier to sharpen your teeth over there than it is here, where we only get to fight over scraps like geggy.
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I don't think I'd be able to keep my cool with that crowd. I can barely restrain myself from yelling at geggy as it is. At least geggy is kind of funny, in his own gung-ho absurdity. But posters at LC like Terrorcell and Jenabell are just simply viscious and mean.
 
Gravy said:
Well, there's the question of what caused the explosion in the freight elevator shaft that also tore up the north tower lobby and created a soot cloud. Witnesses dozens of floors below the impact site reported smelling kerosene (commercial jet fuel is basically kerosene). It seems likely that liquid fuel poured down the elevator shaft and its vapors ignited. There's also the possiblilty the the fireball from the initial impact traveled down the shaft, but I don't know how likely it is that it would make it that far down.
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Forgot about that. It makes sense though - if the jet fuel was vaporized in the shafts, and ignited, based on the previous post's claim that vaporized jet fuel is 5 times as explosive as TNT, then it would certainly explain the lobby damage. That's interesting - is it at all unreasonable to suggest that a fuel/air explosion was caused in the elevator shafts? I mean, if there ever was a day when the "impossible" could happen...
 
geggy said:
Shock and psychological disturbance
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There's no such thing as selective memory loss, geggy, except in movies.

They're trained and expected to remain calm and in control during panicky situations.
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Which doesn't preclude non-firefighters remaining calm and remembering everything perfectly, according to your own theory.

As long as the government wants it to last...
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So.... it's NOT the shock that causes the amnesia, but the GOVERNMENT ?

Are you insane ?

I mean, remember what I said about the repetive images of planes crashing/towers falling being shown on tv all over nyc during the aftermath of the attacks?
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You give the "shock" too much credit. The fact that you didn't mention it until you were cornered by everyone here shows how dishonest you are when arguing.

Like me, people are waking up to the fact that sept 11 was an inside job. It's a no brainer once amnesia start to wear off.
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And, for some reason, non-americans ALSO have amnesia ?

They've done a very sloppy job trying to cover it up, like the way they couldn't.
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If they're sloppy, then they couldn't have possibly pulled it off in the first place, but you've never answered that particular argument.

hide the fact there were no WMD's in Iraq...the only problem is that the mainstream media refuses to touch it (sept 11).
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What does that have to do with anything ?

Blocking out their memories. Do you expect people to remember they were experiencing amnesia? That's the beauty of it.
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You mean it's tremendously convenient to your theory because it's non-falsifiable.

It's in human nature to freak out during a terror attack as extraodinary as sept 11 unless you were trained like firefighters to remain calm and in control during these catastrophic situation.
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It's also in human nature to, dig this, remember shocking experiences even more than non-shocking ones, as a survival trait.

Bobkark...you remind me of luke skywalker when he found out he was the son of darth vader. Do you remember his reaction?
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Oooohhh... yeah. Like that fictional character in a fiction movie. That's a powerful argument, indeed.
 
Gravy said:
Well, there's the question of what caused the explosion in the freight elevator shaft that also tore up the north tower lobby and created a soot cloud. Witnesses dozens of floors below the impact site reported smelling kerosene (commercial jet fuel is basically kerosene). It seems likely that liquid fuel poured down the elevator shaft and its vapors ignited. There's also the possiblilty the the fireball from the initial impact traveled down the shaft, but I don't know how likely it is that it would make it that far down.
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I read the full 9/11 commission report. If I remember correctly, it said the initial blast traveled down the shafts and blew the doors off on the sixth level basement and injured people who were in the vicinity.
 
Regnad Kcin said:
And yet they continue on, disputing him, disagreeing with him, and all... without providing any proof!
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I especially like this little gem:

Sun Zoo said:
Building 7 fell UNIFORMLY at absolutely the rate of free fall or just SLIGHTLY more than absolute free fall in a complete vacuum.

Impossible, unless it was brought down by explosives. End of story.

Don't make it any more complicated than it needs to be.
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Emphasis mine.

MORE than absolute free fall in a complete vacuum ? How could he calculate that ?

How would explosives ACCELERATE the falling debris to that speed ? Again, never adressed. Just assumed. Sheesh.
 
SezMe said:
I read the full 9/11 commission report. If I remember correctly, it said the initial blast traveled down the shafts and blew the doors off on the sixth level basement and injured people who were in the vicinity.
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It would have been following the law of gravity, and it would have simply found the point of least resistance. Must have been one hell of a blast - much bigger than what Loose Change glibly brushes off.
 
aggle-rithm said:
geggy:

Most people remember traumatic events with far greater clarity than the more mundane occurances. It's a survival mechanism that helps us keep potential dangers at the front of our minds, but unfortunately it's also the cause of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
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Damn! Beat me to it.

RayG said:
Doubtful, BUT, he can quote Star Wars dialog, so that makes him an expert.
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He quoted one WORD: "No".
 
A request for geggy

Hi geggy. The agent assigned to watch you has asked that I pass along a request to you: The next time you feel the urge to "master your own domain," if you get my drift, please pull a sheet over yourself. The poor girl couldn't stop giggling and we had to give her the afternoon off.

Oh, and she suggests re-inflating your "wife."
 
geggy said:
Also there are numerous reports from firefighters that they heard something exploding inside the building. I'd have my doubts and would believe it was due to the haziness of their memories if there were as little as one or two reports of those who heard the explosions but that's not the case, there are basically too many of them. Every one of the statements are almost in unision of what they had heard.
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How can you ignore so casually ALL the evidence that shows that you're wrong and then accept ANY indication that you may be right ?

You need help, man. Speak to your psycho therapist wife. Then again, if she's the one that fed you that kind of hogwash, you might want to get a REAL psi to help you.
 
geggy said:
Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?
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...th... that wasn't even a sentence!

geggy said:
There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, very much like that one.
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Oh, I disagree. There are TONS of stupid questions.

Wanna see one ? Here you go:

geggy said:
Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?
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dubfan said:
OMFG I do believe you're right -- I think I see what might be a glimmer of reason starting to flicker over there.
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Problem is, this engineer has likely read the NIST report, but read how the Loosers have deliberately misread it. One of them pulled out the claim that "NIST metallurgical tests say the temps never got above 500 degrees.'

That claim is not true. The tests which, were only done on a small fraction of the metal columns (the ones that could be identified) were done by examining the effects on the paint. Those columns exposed to higher temps had all the paint detroyed and so could not be tested in such a matter.

Seriously, have any of the Loose Changers actually read the work that NIST did? Its not like it is hidden!
 
chipmunk stew said:
The LC forum mods seem to have backed off a bit if anyone wants in. Maybe because they've gotten more traffic--harder to police--or maybe because they've been getting bad "press" about their heavy-handedness.
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I PMd some of the moderators about my posting problems there:
Why do I get a this message when I post "The moderator team needs to review your message before it can be seen". And then I never see any of my posts.

Is this the way to handle critique? If you don't like dissenting voices just delete my account then.
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This is the responce from JFK:
Karim, Welcome to the forums.
You should have no problem posting now.

Please keep in mind, Dissent is fine as long as you keep it civil, clean and please do not spam.
We have many young people here. ( 10 and up. )
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It is a smart move for them not to ban everybody that disagree. That forum would be too crazy for any new recruits to the cult without sceptics.
 
Thoughts on thermite and molten metal

I had what is I think an original thought. CTs are always claiming that there was molten metal in the WTC debris for weeks after the collapse, suggesting to them that thermite was used. While that's not very plausible for other reasons, I think that I can show that long-lasting underground hot spots cannot be due to thermite.

The reason that underground fires can burn for so long is the lack of oxygen, right? The fires can burn only as fast as fresh air can seep in, providing a necessary part of the chemical reaction that is fire.

I just checked, and the thermite reaction does not require oxygen from the air. What happens is that the oxygen atoms in iron oxide leave the iron and bond with the aluminum molecules, which releases lots of heat. No air required. This means that if there were any thermite reactions there, they would have happened immediately, then the heat would have quickly dissipated. Molten metal days later can't be due to thermite reactions.
 
karim or dubfan, could someone try to get me (CurtC over there as well) un-suspended? I can't even PM anyone with a suspended account. I was always polite and civil.
 
Interesting thread over there:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=414

Started by a AA (?) Flight Attendant who knew Betty Ong. It is astonishing how much 9/11 conspiracy drivel she debunks in that one thread. She subscribes to the LIHOP theory (i.e., Bush Let It Happen On Purpose) -- so she's not totally dismissed as a shill. But the reluctance to accept her obvious expertise and sincerity are astounding. And she's a conspiracy theorist herself (LIHOP, WTC = controlled demo, Bush knew, etc.)!!!

The treatment she receives there is...breathtaking.
 
dubfan said:
Interesting thread over there:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=414

Started by a AA (?) Flight Attendant who knew Betty Ong. It is astonishing how much 9/11 conspiracy drivel she debunks in that one thread. She subscribes to the LIHOP theory (i.e., Bush Let It Happen On Purpose) -- so she's not totally dismissed as a shill. But the reluctance to accept her obvious expertise and sincerity are astounding. And she's a conspiracy theorist herself (LIHOP, WTC = controlled demo, Bush knew, etc.)!!!

The treatment she receives there is...breathtaking.
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Oh gawd...

Quoting "Canadian Raven" from that thread:

The only problem I have with the simplest explaination is it doesn't explain how these guys learned how to fly like JAG pilots.
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(my emphasis)

"JAG" was a cheesy TV action/drama about a former navy fighter pilot turned lawyer for the JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL 's office.

The show itself was as much a realistic portrayal of the JAG corps as "Lethal Weapon" was about police work. Every bloody week the writers of "JAG" would come up with some outrageuosly contrived excuse to put this LAWYER back into the cockpit of an F-14 that he was technically no longer qualified to fly! One week, he's shooting down terrorist cruise missles aimed at US carriers, the next he's shooting down hijacked cessnas being flown into oil rigs. It's like this LAWYER is the first jet jockey to reach coveted "Ace" status (5+ confirmed air-to-air kills) AFTER taking a desk job!

In the real world of course, there are no JAG pilots. Though there are likely members of the JAG corps who have pilot certifications, however they probably only get stick time in front of thier PC's at home.

When we're dealing with people who take ridiculously contrived hollywood fantasies as accurate depictions of the real world, is it any wonder they fall so easily for these retardedly illogical conspiracy theories?
 
dubfan said:
Interesting thread over there:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=414

Started by a AA (?) Flight Attendant who knew Betty Ong. It is astonishing how much 9/11 conspiracy drivel she debunks in that one thread. She subscribes to the LIHOP theory (i.e., Bush Let It Happen On Purpose) -- so she's not totally dismissed as a shill. But the reluctance to accept her obvious expertise and sincerity are astounding. And she's a conspiracy theorist herself (LIHOP, WTC = controlled demo, Bush knew, etc.)!!!

The treatment she receives there is...breathtaking.
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she did have a good line though
"The truth is like iodine, it only hurts when it's helping."
 
Pardalis said:
geggy, where does this "frontal lobe"/"amnesia" BS come from?
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He can't remember.

Something whith his frontal lobe hippocampus after the cognitive and emotional overload induced by him posting in this thread and receiving logically well-formulated answers ultimately grounded in evidence, expertise, and even, *shock* commonsense.
 
CurtC said:
I had what is I think an original thought. CTs are always claiming that there was molten metal in the WTC debris for weeks after the collapse, suggesting to them that thermite was used. While that's not very plausible for other reasons, I think that I can show that long-lasting underground hot spots cannot be due to thermite.

The reason that underground fires can burn for so long is the lack of oxygen, right? The fires can burn only as fast as fresh air can seep in, providing a necessary part of the chemical reaction that is fire.

I just checked, and the thermite reaction does not require oxygen from the air. What happens is that the oxygen atoms in iron oxide leave the iron and bond with the aluminum molecules, which releases lots of heat. No air required. This means that if there were any thermite reactions there, they would have happened immediately, then the heat would have quickly dissipated. Molten metal days later can't be due to thermite reactions.
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That fits in with the article I linked back on post 4039. Every time they would clear the debris, the fires would flare up again once the hot spots were exposed to more oxygen.
 
Just had a thought.

Saying that the fact that Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to go to war proves he was involved in the terrorist attack is akin to saying that thieves who looted New Orleans caused the flooding.
 
CurtC said:
I had what is I think an original thought. CTs are always claiming that there was molten metal in the WTC debris for weeks after the collapse, suggesting to them that thermite was used. While that's not very plausible for other reasons, I think that I can show that long-lasting underground hot spots cannot be due to thermite.

The reason that underground fires can burn for so long is the lack of oxygen, right? The fires can burn only as fast as fresh air can seep in, providing a necessary part of the chemical reaction that is fire.

I just checked, and the thermite reaction does not require oxygen from the air. What happens is that the oxygen atoms in iron oxide leave the iron and bond with the aluminum molecules, which releases lots of heat. No air required. This means that if there were any thermite reactions there, they would have happened immediately, then the heat would have quickly dissipated. Molten metal days later can't be due to thermite reactions.
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I think someone suggested something like this at the BAUTforum. I'm pretty sure it was in the 'Scholars for 911 truth website opens' topic. That one got pretty long as well, though.

Edit to add: Starts here with Chainsaw's post: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=37585&page=34
 
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