Loose Change - Part II

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.....What is it w/ these people and movies? Does everything have to be in movie form to be admissable as evidence?

I have noticed that too, Wildcat; it seems that virtually every thread is some type of video, usually "proving" a particular POV.

My hypothesis is that many of who we are talking to over there are fairly young (20-somethings) who have grown up and with video and computer/internet all of their lives. To them, what is on tape and played over the net IS REALITY--and they accept it as same. I won't say all of us here are old fogeys, but most of us have been known to read a book or to or search for solid and verifiable sources, with the math and science to back it up.

And that, IMHO, is very scary for the future. Very scary indeed.
 
I have noticed that too, Wildcat; it seems that virtually every thread is some type of video, usually "proving" a particular POV.

My hypothesis is that many of who we are talking to over there are fairly young (20-somethings) who have grown up and with video and computer/internet all of their lives. To them, what is on tape and played over the net IS REALITY--and they accept it as same. I won't say all of us here are old fogeys, but most of us have been known to read a book or to or search for solid and verifiable sources, with the math and science to back it up.

And that, IMHO, is very scary for the future. Very scary indeed.
Don't worry. I was young and stupid once, too--and not terribly long ago.
 
I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here.

Here is the challenge should you accept:

a) Visit UniversalSeed.org
b) Watch all documentaries and get informed
c) Form an opinion
d) Respond and THEN debunk the claims

Practice tollerance. Character assasination attempts help no one. I am looking for informed, honest, researched discussion. I have looked at all the information put forth advocating the official story. If you have smoking guns I will be willing to listen to you AFTER you watch the documentaries/films.

UniversalSeed.org, for all your truth needs. If you're not appalled, you're not paying attention. Wilfull ignorance and childish naivity is like blood to the coyotes, we can smell/taste the ignorance.


Dear CHUCKSHEEN,

Thank you for your submission of _STOCK PHRASES_ and _CHEST BEATING COMMENTARY_.

We regret that we must refuse your sumbission for now as it:

( ) Does not suit our present needs
( ) Clashes with the decor
( ) Is not OCEA certified
(*) We already have ample supply of _STOCK PHRASES & CHEST BEATING COMMENTARY_

Please note that if 'ample supply' is checked, we request that you do not resubmit your submission, as in many cases a little of these things goes a long way.

Thank you for your continued interest,

The Management
 
I have noticed that too, Wildcat; it seems that virtually every thread is some type of video, usually "proving" a particular POV.

My hypothesis is that many of who we are talking to over there are fairly young (20-somethings) who have grown up and with video and computer/internet all of their lives. To them, what is on tape and played over the net IS REALITY--and they accept it as same. I won't say all of us here are old fogeys, but most of us have been known to read a book or to or search for solid and verifiable sources, with the math and science to back it up.

And that, IMHO, is very scary for the future. Very scary indeed.

Chucksheen's: "Here is the challenge should you accept" did sound alot like "Mission Impossible".
 
I challenge any rational, reasonable, critical thinker here...[typical CT stupidity that proves he doesn't know the meaning of rational, reasonable, or critical...or thinker for that matter]

Welcome, chucksheen. Assuming that you're the real Chuck Sheen (and not just one of those lonely little boys who wishes he were), are you still dating whores?

(I know I know, ad hom, ad hom...)
 
Welcome, chucksheen. Assuming that you're the real Chuck Sheen (and not just one of those lonely little boys who wishes he were), are you still dating whores?

(I know I know, ad hom, ad hom...)
Oh, leave him alone! He's only little - go pick on somebody your own size...

Anyway, welcome Chuck. In response to your challenge, how about you reading through every single post on this thread, then giving us your opinion?
 

According to these CT nuts, there seems to have been an inordinate number of flashes of light that day (on the second plane, on helicopters, before and during the collapse). Wouldn't it be possible that it was because this was early in the morning and the sun was still low when these pictures were taken (thus these flashes could be simply light reflections on metal) ? Why jump to the conclusion that these were explosions?

100% proof? Give me a break.
 
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I'll admit I forgot that the sigs could be turned off. If I get more requests I'll reconsider what I've done. Here's why I posted the link in my sig:

Visibility: I've made 716 posts. If anyone, from here or via any search engine, goes to any post of mine, they'll see the links in my sig.

Flexibility: I've already revised the document twice, and plan to do so weekly.

Great ressource, Gravy. Once again, you are our saviour.

Didn't expect to find some of my own posts in there. Thanks!
 
More from the wacky world

If that wasn't enough to get your attention, the site also features a prominent, highlighted link to Jesse MacBeth.

FWIW, I started your challenge. Viewed Pentagon Strike, Thermite Experiments, South Tower Collapse, and of course, have already seen Loose Change.

Nothing new in any of these.

Not an auspicious debut, chuck.

What amuses and frightens me at the same time about these conspiracy theories is that they all seem to wind down to the same basic idea, in the end: rehashing the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion." In the end, they all blame the same target: Satan's tools, the evil Jews.

If there hadn't been so much genocidal slaughter over the centuries because of this idiotic theory -- more survivable than cockroaches after a nuclear war -- it would be funny.

And if there really was a "Jewish conspiracy," I'd be earning a LOT more money.
 
So that's three JREF bans in one day at LC? Does anyone have any idea why? Did group 2 forget to stay after class?

Four. I was also suspended. No idea why.
 
Thanks for the welcome and more on 9/11 mania

Excellent post, Kiwiwriter. And welcome to the forum!

And your warm words.

I also applaud your use of Mr. Peabody as your avatar. He was always one of my favorite cartoon characters.

Back in my misspent days as a Navy radio broadcaster, I did Bullwinkle the Moose on radio spots, but we had a guy who did him better, so we did a spot in which Bullwinkle (him) pulls Marvin the Martian (me) out of that hat.

The conspiracy theories about 9/11 irritate me on so many levels. Not only because of my intense dislike of such nonsense, but because I'm on Newark's Emergency Operations and Homeland Security Committees. On 9/11, I wrote the press releases and statements from the city to our residents from our command center. All the federal, state, county, and city agencies were there, activated.

I can assure you...they were taken by complete surprise, too.

Another one that irritates me is the story that 4,000 Jews were "warned to leave" New York and the World Trade Center. Those obviously did not include my brother, my wife, my best friend's wife, the executive director of the Port Authority (Neil Levin); and the executive secretary of the PA, who was a high school classmate, Daniel Bergstein. The latter two died in the North Tower.

It never ceases to amaze me that people can understand extremely complicated conspiracy theories, heavily dependent on "dangerous speculation," but can't accept or understand simple answers. I often wonder if the conspiracy theory precedes the event or the other way around.
 
1984 meets 9/11

Well that's double-plus ungood!

Obviously, you don't "bellyfeel Ingsoc."

I'm amused that the authors of a conspiracy theory DVD that questions the government would ban commentary on their own words. But I've noticed a similar thing in Holocaust denial...they will tolerate no criticism of Adolf Hitler, no matter how mild.

"Loose Change is double-plus goodful duckspeak!" :D
 
Obviously, you don't "bellyfeel Ingsoc."

I'm amused that the authors of a conspiracy theory DVD that questions the government would ban commentary on their own words. But I've noticed a similar thing in Holocaust denial...they will tolerate no criticism of Adolf Hitler, no matter how mild.

"Loose Change is double-plus goodful duckspeak!" :D

Loose change forum rectify. Milliplentyfy skeptic thoughtcrime. Rectify. Skeptic unperson. Minitrue forum plusgood Goodthink. Dylan Avery doubleplusgood!
 
The conspiracy theories about 9/11 irritate me on so many levels. Not only because of my intense dislike of such nonsense, but because I'm on Newark's Emergency Operations and Homeland Security Committees. On 9/11, I wrote the press releases and statements from the city to our residents from our command center. All the federal, state, county, and city agencies were there, activated.

I can assure you...they were taken by complete surprise, too.

Another one that irritates me is the story that 4,000 Jews were "warned to leave" New York and the World Trade Center. Those obviously did not include my brother, my wife, my best friend's wife, the executive director of the Port Authority (Neil Levin); and the executive secretary of the PA, who was a high school classmate, Daniel Bergstein. The latter two died in the North Tower.

It never ceases to amaze me that people can understand extremely complicated conspiracy theories, heavily dependent on "dangerous speculation," but can't accept or understand simple answers. I often wonder if the conspiracy theory precedes the event or the other way around.
Welcome, Kiwiwriter. Your insights are very much appreciated here.
 
Hi I am new here and was looking around a little bit and realized something I wanted information on. The 911 CT seems to be the biggest going right now, and the movement seems to be growing if you believe the Zogby poll.

So my question is if it is so easy to attack this movement and prove it wrong, why has James Randi himself not written anything that directly attacks and debunks the supposed holes that the CT'rs claim? It seems to me this would be better publicity and recognition for him than hunting silly psychics and dog intuitions?

If he does have attacked it could someone point me to his research?

Thanks
 
Hi I am new here and was looking around a little bit and realized something I wanted information on. The 911 CT seems to be the biggest going right now, and the movement seems to be growing if you believe the Zogby poll.

So my question is if it is so easy to attack this movement and prove it wrong, why has James Randi himself not written anything that directly attacks and debunks the supposed holes that the CT'rs claim? It seems to me this would be better publicity and recognition for him than hunting silly psychics and dog intuitions?

If he does have attacked it could someone point me to his research?

Thanks
How 'bout his email address: randi@randi.org
 
Hi I am new here and was looking around a little bit and realized something I wanted information on. The 911 CT seems to be the biggest going right now, and the movement seems to be growing if you believe the Zogby poll.

So my question is if it is so easy to attack this movement and prove it wrong, why has James Randi himself not written anything that directly attacks and debunks the supposed holes that the CT'rs claim? It seems to me this would be better publicity and recognition for him than hunting silly psychics and dog intuitions?

If he does have attacked it could someone point me to his research?

Thanks
Welcome!
Couple of questions:

1) Why should we believe the Zogby poll, which was written by the leaders of 911truth.org?

2) Have you asked Mr. Randi?
 
My 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 cents.....

I ran across this site, and had to comment

Forget for a moment the “conspiracy theory.” I always like to take it a step at a time. Let’s pretend we’re on CSI. (I think I’ve seen one episode.) Our first is task to determine: “What happened?” It’s not yet our job to determine “Who did it?” or “How many were involved?” or “How much did they spend?” or “Why did they do it?” These questions would be premature at this point.

Also, let’s keep it simple. I like to use the following rule:
If I can’t verify a piece of information, I throw it out. (For example, this witness said, this video is missing, I see missile launchers, etc. Yes, some or allot of this stuff is laughable.)
Let’s start with things that are incontrovertible. (At least as close to incontrovertible as one can get.)

A little physics.

An object falling to earth falls with a specific amount of force:
The mass of the object multiplied by the acceleration due to gravity.

Mass x Acceleration = Force.

Think of this force as money in a bank account. You only have a specific amount that you can spend. No more.

It takes force to accelerate any object. Even a falling object.

When an object falls to earth, all of its potential energy is converted into kinetic energy. Its force (M x A = F) is used-up (spent) to accomplish this acceleration. This is called free-fall. If any solid object is situated below this falling object, some of this “free-fall” force will be absorbed (used) (spent). The fact that steel beams are flying outwards, means that the force of the falling floors is being absorbed. The force is being used to accelerate the steel beams away from the tower. It doesn’t matter how fast they are flying, or at what angle, straight out or not, etc… Just the fact that steel beams landed hundreds of feet from the tower, shows that force (from the falling floors) was used (spent). Force was also used to cut up the vertical steel beams. All of the structural steel was cut into pieces no larger than 30 feet long. Remember, we’re talking about steel below the point of impact, which wasn’t subject to fire, and so was still structurally sound. Also, all of the concrete was turned into powder. This like-wise took force.

What we end up with, is an equation that doesn’t balance.

(The force of the falling floors) = (free falling floors) + (steel beams cut into pieces) + (steel beams thrown away from building) + (pulverized and powdered concrete)

The falling floors do not have enough force to accomplish all of these things. We know this just from watching the video, because, as stated, the top floors fall at almost free-fall speed. (Not quite, but only a few seconds more. This is judged by comparing the falling tower with the falling debris.)

Not only do the falling floors not have enough power to accomplish these four things, they don’t even have enough power to accomplish each of the last two (throwing beams, pulverizing concrete) individually. It doesn’t even matter if the steel at the top of the towers was turned into melted butter. The vertical beams at the middle and bottom of the tower would be intact. (No fire, no plane impact) (I’ve included a picture of the tower being built. Judge for yourself how much vertical steel went into its construction. Notice in particular the vertical beams in the center section. These were omitted/ignored in the NIST report.)

As an experiment, take a high-rise building, and drop it on a bunch of concrete. (Yes I know, we can’t actually perform this experiment.) But I bet you would agree, the concrete would not turn to a fine powder. It would take more force than the mass of the building during free fall can supply.

As I said, the equation is way out of balance. If you add up the cost of:
1.) accelerating the top floors to free-fall speed
2.) cutting beams into pieces
3.) throwing beams out away from the building
4.) pulverizing the concrete (and everything else) to powder.
… You have a total that was more than we had in our bank account.

The next step then, would be to find out where this extra force came from. Explosives are the only plausible explanation that I can come up with. This also would solve the problem that the building collapsed symmetrically in its own foot-print. This has NEVER happened spontaneously, from a fire, or earthquake, or hurricane, or plane crash. But we have seen it occur hundreds of times from controlled demolitions. (Explosives inside the building at predetermined locations, exploded in a predetermined sequence.)

Thanks for your time.

Please excuse the excessive use of alliteration.
 

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I don't think this is quite Randi's field. Anyway I can't quite see what the 9/11 "truth" movement needs with another series of questions they can't answer.
 
I ran across this site, and had to comment

Forget for a moment the “conspiracy theory.” I always like to take it a step at a time. Let’s pretend we’re on CSI. (I think I’ve seen one episode.) Our first is task to determine: “What happened?” It’s not yet our job to determine “Who did it?” or “How many were involved?” or “How much did they spend?” or “Why did they do it?” These questions would be premature at this point.

Also, let’s keep it simple. I like to use the following rule:
If I can’t verify a piece of information, I throw it out. (For example, this witness said, this video is missing, I see missile launchers, etc. Yes, some or allot of this stuff is laughable.)
Let’s start with things that are incontrovertible. (At least as close to incontrovertible as one can get.)

A little physics.

An object falling to earth falls with a specific amount of force:
The mass of the object multiplied by the acceleration due to gravity.

Mass x Acceleration = Force.

Think of this force as money in a bank account. You only have a specific amount that you can spend. No more.

It takes force to accelerate any object. Even a falling object.

When an object falls to earth, all of its potential energy is converted into kinetic energy. Its force (M x A = F) is used-up (spent) to accomplish this acceleration. This is called free-fall. If any solid object is situated below this falling object, some of this “free-fall” force will be absorbed (used) (spent). The fact that steel beams are flying outwards, means that the force of the falling floors is being absorbed. The force is being used to accelerate the steel beams away from the tower. It doesn’t matter how fast they are flying, or at what angle, straight out or not, etc… Just the fact that steel beams landed hundreds of feet from the tower, shows that force (from the falling floors) was used (spent). Force was also used to cut up the vertical steel beams. All of the structural steel was cut into pieces no larger than 30 feet long. Remember, we’re talking about steel below the point of impact, which wasn’t subject to fire, and so was still structurally sound. Also, all of the concrete was turned into powder. This like-wise took force.

What we end up with, is an equation that doesn’t balance.

(The force of the falling floors) = (free falling floors) + (steel beams cut into pieces) + (steel beams thrown away from building) + (pulverized and powdered concrete)

The falling floors do not have enough force to accomplish all of these things. We know this just from watching the video, because, as stated, the top floors fall at almost free-fall speed. (Not quite, but only a few seconds more. This is judged by comparing the falling tower with the falling debris.)

Not only do the falling floors not have enough power to accomplish these four things, they don’t even have enough power to accomplish each of the last two (throwing beams, pulverizing concrete) individually. It doesn’t even matter if the steel at the top of the towers was turned into melted butter. The vertical beams at the middle and bottom of the tower would be intact. (No fire, no plane impact) (I’ve included a picture of the tower being built. Judge for yourself how much vertical steel went into its construction. Notice in particular the vertical beams in the center section. These were omitted/ignored in the NIST report.)

As an experiment, take a high-rise building, and drop it on a bunch of concrete. (Yes I know, we can’t actually perform this experiment.) But I bet you would agree, the concrete would not turn to a fine powder. It would take more force than the mass of the building during free fall can supply.

As I said, the equation is way out of balance. If you add up the cost of:
1.) accelerating the top floors to free-fall speed
2.) cutting beams into pieces
3.) throwing beams out away from the building
4.) pulverizing the concrete (and everything else) to powder.
… You have a total that was more than we had in our bank account.

The next step then, would be to find out where this extra force came from. Explosives are the only plausible explanation that I can come up with. This also would solve the problem that the building collapsed symmetrically in its own foot-print. This has NEVER happened spontaneously, from a fire, or earthquake, or hurricane, or plane crash. But we have seen it occur hundreds of times from controlled demolitions. (Explosives inside the building at predetermined locations, exploded in a predetermined sequence.)

Thanks for your time.

Please excuse the excessive use of alliteration.

Since you know the "equations don't balance," please present your math.
 
the top floors fall at almost free-fall speed. (Not quite, but only a few seconds more.

Welcome Mutton-Head, I'm sure we all (especially the non-physics-experts) appreciate your detailed and hyperlink-free explanation. You have mixed up the concepts of force and energy pretty badly, but your point still works for me.

The above quote does not however. A 'few seconds' means a lot in freefall calculations. In this thread is has already been shown that the acceleration of the towers was only about 60-70% of freefall acceleration, even when using timings supplied by CT advocates. This means at least 30% of the potential energy of the tower was available for the destructive process you describe. That's A LOT.
 
Also, present your evidence that it "fell within it's own footprint", especially since your earlier statements contended that pieces of steel were thrown "hundreds of yards from the building". Also in light of the fact that buildings over a huge area were damaged by the fall, and photos of the aftermath clearly show debris shtrewn for a wide area outside the footprint.
 
All of the structural steel was cut into pieces no larger than 30 feet long.
It wasn't "cut". The towers were built up in sections (look at your picture again). You didn't think they used 415-meter lengths of steel, did you?

We know this just from watching the video, because, as stated, the top floors fall at almost free-fall speed. (Not quite, but only a few seconds more. This is judged by comparing the falling tower with the falling debris.)
You seem to have a fairly good grasp of physics, but you need to hunker down and follow through. Since time is squared when you're dealing with acceleration, a few seconds ends up making a monumental difference, especially when you're dealing with masses as large as the WTC. Before you go any further, see if you can work out the ratio between energies of a mass falling 415 meters in 9.2 sec (time at free-fall) and one falling 415 meters in 14 sec (time at actual acceleration). The difference, you'll find, is quite large--sufficient to account for "lost" energy.

Another illustration to chew on: an object dropped from twice the height of the WTC would hit the ground only about 4 seconds after an object dropped from the top of the WTC.

As an experiment, take a high-rise building, and drop it on a bunch of concrete. (Yes I know, we can’t actually perform this experiment.) But I bet you would agree, the concrete would not turn to a fine powder. It would take more force than the mass of the building during free fall can supply.
Drop it from how high? If I drop it from a plane, not only would it be obliterated into a fine powder, but also it would cause a massive earthquake, levelling other surrounding structures.
 
The fact that steel beams are flying outwards, means that the force of the falling floors is being absorbed. The force is being used to accelerate the steel beams away from the tower. It doesn’t matter how fast they are flying, or at what angle, straight out or not, etc… Just the fact that steel beams landed hundreds of feet from the tower, shows that force (from the falling floors) was used (spent).
Your analysis confuses force and energy, but I can figure out what you mean. I agree that some of the energy of the collapsing tower would be used to pulverize the concrete and to fling those beams outwards.

But you can also see that the avalanche of collapse falls slower than the debris that's free-falling, right? For your analysis to be taken seriously, you need to actually do the math and show how much energy pulverizing the concrete, and flinging out beams takes, then show that the amount the building is slowed is not consistent with that. If you can't do that, you're just spouting hot air.
 
Welcome Mutton-Head, I'm sure we all (especially the non-physics-experts) appreciate your detailed and hyperlink-free explanation. You have mixed up the concepts of force and energy pretty badly, but your point still works for me.

The above quote does not however. A 'few seconds' means a lot in freefall calculations. In this thread is has already been shown that the acceleration of the towers was only about 60-70% of freefall acceleration, even when using timings supplied by CT advocates. This means at least 30% of the potential energy of the tower was available for the destructive process you describe. That's A LOT.
Aw man, Shrinker already supplied you with the answer, Mutton-Head. Anyway, I suggest you still crank through the calculations on your own--it's mind-boggling when you realize the magnitude of the dynamics involved in the collapses. Don't go looking for a pre-conceived answer, though. Be honest with your variables and constants.
 
I'll admit I forgot that the sigs could be turned off.
Not only can sigs be turned off, but to me, that's the only way to read these forums. Avatars too. It's just clutter that's not needed.

You can also turn off sigs and avatars at the LC forum, which is almost a necessity over there. I've also used the Adblock extension in Firefox to block all their damn smileys, which makes reading that forum much more tolerable.

By the way, I have not been banned from the LC Forum. I was suspended a couple of weeks ago because I questioned TheQuest's opinions on depleted uranium, then by the help of dubfan the suspension was rescinded, and so far I'm still posting.
 
The fact that steel beams are flying outwards, means that the force of the falling floors is being absorbed. The force is being used to accelerate the steel beams away from the tower.

So far so good. This means we don't need explosives...

What we end up with, is an equation that doesn’t balance.

Alarm bells start ringing.

(The force of the falling floors) = (free falling floors) + (steel beams cut into pieces) + (steel beams thrown away from building) + (pulverized and powdered concrete)

The falling floors do not have enough force to accomplish all of these things. We know this just from watching the video, because, as stated, the top floors fall at almost free-fall speed. (Not quite, but only a few seconds more. This is judged by comparing the falling tower with the falling debris.)

Not only do the falling floors not have enough power to accomplish these four things, they don’t even have enough power to accomplish each of the last two (throwing beams, pulverizing concrete) individually. It doesn’t even matter if the steel at the top of the towers was turned into melted butter. The vertical beams at the middle and bottom of the tower would be intact. (No fire, no plane impact) (I’ve included a picture of the tower being built. Judge for yourself how much vertical steel went into its construction. Notice in particular the vertical beams in the center section. These were omitted/ignored in the NIST report.)

So many pretty words, and so little actual demonstration. You, of course, DO have the actual mathematical calculations used to reach this conclusion, don't you ?

Of course you don't.

Oh, and welcome, and such.
 
If you're not with us, then you're with the enemy...

Reporting to base:

OCMARK at LC forum said:
Like I said this is NOT the UN it is loose Change and if you are NOT one of us and are NOT interested in the movement and are Here for sport....time to go hit the road they are here for sport only. That is a key word , they are NOT here for truth and are NOT here to promote Loose Change matter a fact they think the Movie is SH**...WTF....

The trolls/shills/feds will come and the F*** you will come and that is to be expected we will deal with them, but be goddamned if we are going to let members from another board that supports, promotes, and distributes a HIT PIECE on Loose Change come on this board and try to make us look like fools and argue until we are blue in the face, they hate this Movie and It's maker, they think CT are clowns and will NEVER join our Cause they believe what the Boss told them and are having a good laugh at what we post and discuss over here. We believe that the Boss has LIED to us and Killed 3,000 Civilians for crying out loud they were Americans at that.. This is NOT a Joke or a game or for sport. They @ JREF have there bi***es that come over here and "report" back to base

This is NOT the UN...if that were the case....Hell you might as well give Gravy an account on this board (LC) and have him post up his HIT PIECE in the Skeptics Forum. That should go over real well with Dylan and the Members Here

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4948&view=findpost&p=4753002

Oh, he just cracks me up! I just love having a good laugh at his expense! ROFLMAO!!!

Long live Teh BOSS!!!
 
All of the structural steel was cut into pieces no larger than 30 feet long. Remember, we’re talking about steel below the point of impact, which wasn’t subject to fire, and so was still structurally sound.
Below is a picture of one of the conspirators cutting the steel into those convenient sections. He's obviously a slacker, as he has waited until after the buildings collapsed to do his job.
 

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Reporting to base:



http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4948&view=findpost&p=4753002

Oh, he just cracks me up! I just love having a good laugh at his expense! ROFLMAO!!!

Long live Teh BOSS!!!

Pet Peeve Rant Mode On
Killed 3,000 Civilians for crying out loud they were Americans at that..

Known country
Australia 3
Bermuda 1
Britain 1
Canada 5
China 2
Dominican Republic 1
El Salvador 1
England 11
Germany 6
Israel 1
Japan 3
Mexico 10
USA 2902

Known foreign citizenship
Australian 1
Belgian 1
Brazilian 3
British 67
Chinese 2
Colombian 17
Congonese 2
Ecuadorian 3
Filipino 15
French 1
German 5
Ghanaian 2
Guyanese 3
Haitian 2
Honduran 1
Indian 1
Indonesian1
Irish 1
Israeli 2
Italian 4
Ivory Coast 1
Jamaican 16
Japanese 23
Lebanese 3
Lithuania 1
Mexican 15
Moldavian 1
Nigerian 1
Peruvian 5
Portuguese 3
Russian 1
Swedish 1
Taiwanese 1
Ukrainian 1
Uzbek 1
Venezuelan 1

from http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/COUNTRY_CITIZENSHIP.htm

9/11 affected the world, not just the US. And this brings up an additional gripe of mine. Why would it be, if the evidence points to this being a US gov't operation that _all_ of the above countries are not asking for Bush's head?
 
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