Story on the meaning of life

If you are finished with your search for knowledge in the year 2006,
To be fair, I don't think he said he was finished with his search for knowledge. He seems genuinely interested in the way the world works, and for his own sake (not anyone else's) it seems he would continue that interest.
He has said that he's come to some conclusions about how the world works, for instance that we all die, or that the universe will come to an end. These seem to me quite safe conclusions.

Can we be absolutely certain about them? No. But that doesn't mean that we should not base any actions upon them. They are pretty solid conclusions, and unlikely to be overturned.
Now, if his philosophy naturally follows from those conclusions, then I'd say it makes sense to follow his philosophy. As an individual, because that's all we're talking about right now. Why? Well, we have a cost-benefit analysis to do. There is the possible reward for altruism (as a catch all term for all selfless acts that he is preaching against), if everything turned out ot have a point. We can view that "reward" as anything we like, it doesn't matter.
On the other hand, if you follow his advice (live for yourself, today - and honestly, that could entail keeping up social graces, paying taxes, etc. as an entirely pragmatic consideration - if it helps make your life happier), then you live the happiest life you could.

So you are left with two possible lives, one in which you are as happy as possible, one in which you are much less happy.
You are also left with two possible outcomes - one in which nothing matters, and one in which everything you did, or did not do, matters. I mean matters on some cosmic, rather than individual scale, as that's what we're talking about when refering to whether or not the universe will "end".

I would argue that based on what we know, the second outcome is so unlikely, that even though the reward might be great from a life based on the assumption that it could be true, such an investment is unwarranted. For much the same reason that I don't play the lottery. The investment might be small relative to the possible return, but the chances of getting that return are tiny.

Basically, your argument seems to follow similar lines to pascal's wager. "We may not be able to show that god exists, but we should worship him just in case." seems quite similar to, "We may not know if the universe has a point, but we should assume it does just in case." Both to me seem so unlikely that it isn't worth making that wager.


believe that science cannot ever change its opinion about the end of the universe,

Just as a quick follow up on what I just said, I don't think his point is that science can't ever change it's opinion, of course it could. But to think that is as likely as that it will expand it's knowledge but keep the general story basically the same seems to me to ignore everything we know. Yes, it could turn out that the universe will in fact not end. But it very probably will.
Here's an analogy. Imagine I'm watching a baseball game (please note I know very little about baseball). It's the bottom of the 9th inning, and the team I am supporting (call it Team A) has is up to bat with 2 outs. The score is B: 12, A: 0.
A friend I'm watching with casually says, "I'd bet you $50 that team B will win."
What do I do? Do I take him up on his offer, because, after all, anything could happen? Or do I base my decision on what I know about the game so far - that team B is a stronger team, that A is in serious trouble?
Of course Team A could win. It's not that unlikely. But it's not worth making the bet - my expected payoff is less than my investment.

The evidence that the universe will come to an end is much stronger than the evidence that team B will win the game.

Of course none of this suggests that I agree with his conclusions. As I've argued above (in other posts), I don't see how the "purpose" of the universe (or lack thereof) in any way affects me or my life.

Then I hope you've never voted. I hope you've never done any altruistic act at all, because you'd be proven to be a hypocrite, and someone who can't actually live what you preach.
Ah, hell, we're all hypocrites sometimes.

If it doesn't, a philosophy that seeks human happiness by serving the greatest good does no harm.
Well, according to his philosophy, on an individual level (for him) it does, because of the opportunity cost. He would say, "I could have been much happier, which is what I want out of life, if I'd acted as though the universe would end." He just feels that this opportunity cost outweighs the possible benefits of betting that there might be some hidden purpose after all.
 
Did this train got derailed or what?

I read the article, quite liked some parts of it, and I follow the discussion here. The discussion made for great reading on the first page (40 odd posts), than people started getting annoyed, some commetns could be almost classified as personal attacks etc.
Then it all went down to dscussing paranormal stuff etc , which was never really the point of the thread.

I'd like to come back to the following argument

But if things mean something *right now* to people who exist *right now*, then i'm afraid that has some ramifications to your argument that you haven't completely played out. It means that my personal "meaning" can be affected by others, and they can be affected by mine. It means there are consequences to action. If my ultimate pursuit is some vaguely defined "happiness", then I may have to strike a bargain with my neighbor to ensure that his pursuit of happiness doesn't destroy mine. After making a few of those agreements, I may find myself in an actual society in which people interact and are restrained by some basic rules. Oh... but that's what we have now! I guess we can see value in society without requiring society (or life, or the universe) to exist forever.
and later Roborama's:
My point is only this - nothing matters, okay, there we agree. But some things matter to me. Some things matter to you too. You may disagree about that right now, but if, for instance, you were tied to a chair and someone was getting ready to tear out your fingernails, I think you'd quickly agree that it mattered to you (then and there) whether they did so or not.
psp02ls, I know you addressed that issue saying that in the long run it doesn't matter:
Of course other humans can influence your life. There are consequences to actions on a day-to-day level, but ultimately there are not. There was a universe before humans and surely the universe could survive if we were made extinct? So our consequences are personal.
But wasn't one of the points of your essey, that personal consequences are really ALL that matters to us, since nothing matters in the long run?
I care about what other people do, because, as BryanLower nicely put it " I may have to strike a bargain with my neighbor to ensure that his pursuit of happiness doesn't destroy mine"

I guess I just don't understand your argument here psp02ls.

In the US billions are spent on space and on war
I won't comment on the war, but space? Thanks to the research made in that area we might once be able to leave the planet Earth, if it survives that long, and maybe even the solar system, and therefore avoid the consequences of the demise of the solar system. Research in medicine and other areas works towards prolonging our lifespan, therefore allowing us to be happy for longer.
Well that's very nice and all, but what if the whole human race decides that God really did make us and that's the point?
Well, belief in a deity of some sorts is wide spread across the world, and atheists are definitely a minority.
 
Okay. In chronological order:

Avita:

You are equating the original randomness with lack of purpose.

No, I'm just pointing out that despite somethings being able to do lots of amazing and not so amazing things, that all life sprung from randomness and hence is ultimately pointless.

but you don't seem to acknowledge that your own seeking after happiness is equally pointless under your paradigm.

No, I think I say this is the story pretty clear. Everything is pointless, but you are born and dying will happen soon enough. If everything is pointless, you may as well ensure that you are happy. That's all in the story and is still my position.

westphalia:

I think your posts are off topic a little, and I'm not interested in exchanging personal attacks. If I've ignored some important points, it's because your posts are too hostile and move into areas that I think are irrelevant.

Ian:

I'm not getting involved in discussions of parapsychology. If you have access to PA proceedings, then you can read some of my work. After acting as programme chair last year, I can say that the state of modern parapsychology is poor, no matter what anyone says.

Moving on

Roboramma:

Basically, your argument seems to follow similar lines to pascal's wager. "We may not be able to show that god exists, but we should worship him just in case." seems quite similar to, "We may not know if the universe has a point, but we should assume it does just in case." Both to me seem so unlikely that it isn't worth making that wager.

I like that. I agree too. You seem to have got my position. I was reading an article about the big bang today and the commentary at the end was interesting. One researcher claimed that nothing was really known about the big bang and it may well be replaced by better theories. Another person argued that the big bang is a very good theory, but it will be refined. This is where I stand. The nitty gritty details will be improved but that the main ideas will stay (again I did say this in my story!).

Welcome Joller

But wasn't one of the points of your essay, that personal consequences are really ALL that matters to us, since nothing matters in the long run?
I care about what other people do, because, as BryanLower nicely put it " I may have to strike a bargain with my neighbor to ensure that his pursuit of happiness doesn't destroy mine"

Yes, and I do say that you may want to participate in the world with other people. Be a rock star or a scientist, I think I say. You may have to strike a bargain with your neighbour. You have to breathe oxygen to live. Just be happy and don't let people dictate to you, as much as you can.

In the US billions are spent on space and on war
This is merely an illustration. If a country has billions and billions of dollars, that money has come from its people. How to spend that money? I would not like to tell starving people in Africa that I chose to send a shuttle into space rather than feed them (not wanting to get into economics) but there are finite resources in the world and children dying of starvation. I don't care how the money is spent, anymore, but if you are a humanitarian, maybe that irks you.

I would just like to add.

I don't expect anybody to agree with me. The message of my story is a hard one to agree with. To be told you are not important and that every thing that is important to you is pointless; these are hard things to accept. Is ignorance bliss? Is not knowing or striving for something, better? I don't know, but I know which one I choose. I choose to see the implications of evolution and cosmology. What will I do with that? I will try and be happy for the rest of my life. I will mostly be irreverent to everything else. And then I will die.

By all means argue around the point and I'm happy to participate, but I honestly don't think that anything will persuade me of a better alternative.
 
I'm not getting involved in discussions of parapsychology. If you have access to PA proceedings, then you can read some of my work. After acting as programme chair last year, I can say that the state of modern parapsychology is poor, no matter what anyone says.

If the state of modern parapsychology is poor, then it ought to be vastly improved. However I fail to see what this has to do with anything whatsoever. It certainly has nothing to do with anything that I have said. And I have absolutely no desire to discuss parapsychoilogy either. Hell I don't even have any desire to discuss the paranormal. Certainly not with people on this board anyway. There's absolutely nothing to discuss.
 
Because no one has ever - ever - been able to prove a single instance of legitimate paranormal phenomena. Ever. For centuries. Why would someone under the age of 100 waste a moment's time on it?

I can understand a child being interested in it, and inquiring into it, but by the time one chooses a college path, one should be able to distinguish between fantasy and science.

I can think of a number of reasons for studying such things, but primary among them would be psp02ls stated reason - to better understand the world we live in. Do you object to Randi's challenge? Do you find SCICOP* a childish group, unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality?

*SCICOP - Scientific committee for the investigation of the paranormal
 
Does 26 years of research and experience mean you are 26 years old? Because you look much older than that.
 
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I know that I'm late to the party here, but thanks to the bump, I got to read this thread for the first time. I found it extremely interesting, and the discussion has been very enlightening.

My personal philosophy is that even knowing that I will die one day and cease to exist forever, I still feel a need to contribute to society before I die. I want to make the world a better place for myself and others while I live, and make the world a better place for my children, their children, their children, etc, as others have done for me. Yes, of course I want to be happy, but I also want others to be happy, and not for the sole purpose of feeding my own ego. All of this knowing that one day the universe will end. Why should I care? Why should my children and grand children care that the universe may end in billions of years and it will ultimately be for nothing? Not everything in our lives needs to have a grand and ultimate purpose to the universe. Just because my actions don't mean anything in a billion years does not mean they can not be important in the next 60, 100, 1000 years. If I can do one thing that positively affects society as a whole, even after I'm gone, then my life did mean something.

Having said that, I found this quote to be very sad:
There is an email service, which will forward you an email after a set time period. I sent myself an email to be delivered 10 years in the future which states "I hope you still think what you did when you wrote your story". I read it and think about it constantly, because these are the questions I am interested in.
I am around your age.. 32. I laugh at some of the ideas I had when I was 22, much like at that time I laughed at the ideas I had when I was 12. If my thoughts and philosophies haven't evolved even more by the time I'm 42, that is a pretty terrible thought.
 
It seems to me that the essay and posts are the work of someone who has not yet got to grips with what he wants/needs/feels in his heart of hearts.

The essay itself, while mildly entertaining, is quite wordy and rambling. To be perfectly frank, it is the type of stuff that ex-Moonies and some ex-Fundies have spouted ad nauseum after seeing the errors of their christian ways for the first time.

psp, you are possibly still a little lost after discarding parapschology, but trying to convince people that your somewhat skewed version of the only meaning of life is correct isn't actually going to help you in the long run.

Age 30 and the years immediately after that are often the years when we solidify opinions, so I feel that maybe you should be more open to other possibilites in life - real things like the reciprocated love of your own child, the enormous feeling of personal satisfaction in giving life to the helpless, or simply being there for someone else when needed. Are you a parent? I suspect not, and I know from personal experience that many of life's truths suddenly become redundant the day you become a dad.

I am certainly on your wavelength in the life enjoyment category, life is all about having fun, but that attitude is so much more simply summed up in the immortal of ob Marley (& Bobby McFerrin) "Don't Worry, Be Happy"

In about 2000 fewer words.
 
I just got back from holiday and thought I'd respond to the last couple of comments.

Personally, I don't really like the patronising tones that abound by people who take themselves far too seriously. If you think your life is meaningful and important, fine. If you think that you are god made, the pinnacle of life in the universe, fine. But I have laid out my argument as clearly and concisely as I can, not for other people, but for myself. It was written at time of transition, when I believed in a purpose for me. The I suddenly realised that the implications of science are overwhelming. Evolution and cosmology really do put us in our place. If you disagree with anything I say, fine. I've shown my story to lots of people, many of whom have totally agreed with every word (albeit highlighting the fact that it is a little depressing), but as I've said earlier in this discussion, I don't expect people to agree and some don't.

I do have to respond to the Athiest though:

so I feel that maybe you should be more open to other possibilities in life - real things like the reciprocated love of your own child, the enormous feeling of personal satisfaction in giving life to the helpless, or simply being there for someone else when needed. Are you a parent? I know from personal experience that many of life's truths suddenly become redundant the day you become a dad.

You sound almost religious. Real things like the reciprocated love of your own child eh? Well I'm not down on love, but whether that gives my life meaning or reality, hmm I'm not convinced. And when I do become a parent, I know that it will change the practicalities of life, but it can't change the facts of the universe.

That being said, be happy, don't worry is a good way to live. But since I'm not one for believing things without evidence, it's nice to back it up with science.

:)
 
It's been a while since I last posted anything to this thread, but I thought I would update it with a link to my atheism and science blog (where I am posting my thoughts and continued opinions about the meaning of life and the universe). I'm sure some people might find my two new posts interesting. The first is a short discussion atheism and the second outlines why I gave up parapsychology.

It can be found at http://everythingispointless.blogspot.com/
 
Well, I was reading this thread when it started. I kept lurking because people were saying everything I thought of (including Pascal wager’s). It was kind of weird to see atheists and agnostics fighting the same fight of believers (actually, only one) for a while, until their differences made they argue with each other.

Now that thread is back I would like to say/ask a few things:

psp02ls: let’s say I am only happy if I enslave 2 billion people and kill another 1 billion. Since everything is pointless, there should be nothing wrong with it, right? Of course, they would have the right to defend themselves (for the sake of their happiness), but I would not have to care about it. Neither would you. Is that what you believe right now? Furthermore, I could manage to explode the whole world after I died – since, afterall, we are all going to die and everything is pointless. The same argument is valid for everything: rape, torture, corruption, petty theft, infidelity, etc. So, ultimately, you mean that if there is no god, there is no morality, or that morality does not matter? I am eager to read your answer.

In my POV, my happiness is directly related to my family, my job and the discoveries of science (I am a very curious guy) even if we are all going to die. For that, I need a stable and peaceful place to live. And I care if someone is tortured to death (especially children) even if I cannot do anything about it. Do you? If so, why?
 
Hi chracatoa.

The simple answer to your questions is everything is pointless. It is an unequivocal conclusion (and since you've read my postings etc you'll understand why I've come to that conclusion).

And I care if someone is tortured to death (especially children) even if I cannot do anything about it. Do you? If so, why?

So my answer would be no. It's funny actually because my partner is actually a doctor looking after sick children. I often find it very odd that she gives up her time (which equates to life) to go and help people, at the expense of her own happiness. To put it another way, she doesn't want to be a responsible hardworking doctor, but she does it because that's what is expected of her.

My own position is do what makes you happy. If you don't want to be a doctor and spend your life helping people then don't. But, here is the part people seem to miss slightly, if you want to help people, go and do it. Realise that I am not in charge of your life. You are in charge of it. We are each, alone inside our own heads. The product of chance events and evolution. There is no god and no salvation. Morality is made up.

An alien could potentially land today and kill every human on the planet. It's quite an old plot line now, but essentially it is possible (although admittedly unlikely). An asteroid could fly out of the sky, and vaporize the entire planet (if it was large enough). One day, sure enough, you and your descendants will be gone.

So try and be happy in whatever makes you happy. I for one am becoming an ever more impassioned atheist - and here is the important part - if only to stop people dictating their will or beliefs onto me. Since it is all make-believe I will state now that I'm really not that interested in the memes of others. My motivations are to try and change my position for the better of my life. If I help others along the way, that's good. But it has never been my primary aim.

Phew.
 
Good article, but the dinosaurs are way overrated imo. Also when you say "As species got cleverer, they got more social", I think it's the otherway round.
 
Good article...[a]lthough the part about The Space Whale onwards was a bit weird..

Thanks. I guess that's my own fault for getting carried away with the metaphor!

If anyone's interested, Randi's just added his own two cents.

Q. Why, given that there is no god, do you do what you do?

A. “Because I care, and there are probably many hundreds of generations yet to come…”

You can read more here
 
Hi chracatoa.
The simple answer to your questions is everything is pointless. It is an unequivocal conclusion (and since you've read my postings etc you'll understand why I've come to that conclusion).
So my answer would be no. It's funny actually because my partner is actually a doctor looking after sick children. I often find it very odd that she gives up her time (which equates to life) to go and help people, at the expense of her own happiness. To put it another way, she doesn't want to be a responsible hardworking doctor, but she does it because that's what is expected of her.

So you are saying that if there is no God, if everything is ultimately pointless, we do not need morality. Or laws. Or anything. Is that correct? If you are an atheist there is no morality?

I think that your error is overestimating the "ultimately" part. Things exist now and I think we should care about them.

BTW, do you plan to have kids? If so, if you want their happiness you would have to work for a safer, better world, even if ultimately everything is pointless.
 

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