Answers: getting serious
Hi,
Here are a couple of answers.
To CurtC:
The report says:
"
At some time between 10:10 and 10:15, a military aide told the Vice President and others that the aircraft was 80 miles out. Vice President Cheney was asked for authority to engage the aircraft.218 His reaction was described by Scooter Libby as quick and decisive, “in about the time it takes a batter to decide to swing.” The Vice President authorized fighter aircraft to engage the inbound plane. He told us he based this authorization on his earlier conversation with the President.The military aide returned a few minutes later, probably between 10:12 and 10:18, and said the aircraft was 60 miles out. He again asked for authorization to engage.The Vice President again said yes.219"
At 10h10, the plane was down, 130 miles away from Washington.
So, if the order concerned UA93, there was a information problem. The report says they were relying on a "projected path". But they don't have any evidence supporting it (exept a Tim Grovack interview, which is probably bogus).
"
I'm sorry, I don't understand how you got from the fact that the plane was already down, to the conclusion that the shoot-down order could not have been related to UA93. Want to try again?"
I'm not saying Cheney
never gave an order to take out 93, i'm saying the above account is false when it states the order Cheney confirmed concerned 93.
In my view, it is the official account that looks like the Mineta's account, and not Mineta's that looks like the official one. Why? because the official account just doesn't fit.
I do not exclude though that an order wasgiven later to scramble fighters to shoot 93 down.
but it's 77 we're talking about here.
Thx for the tip with the URLs
___________________
To Maccy
I don't think anybody who has serious doubts about the official version should shut up.
My timeline is based, to start with, on the fact that the official one is not backed up by any documentary evidence available.
1. In my view, not only did radars found F77 before 0932 (which is the official time) but they found it NORTH not WEST of Washington:
1.Why the official account saying F77 was lost until it was found by Dulles only at 0932 is false
This is taken from coopeartive research.
" According to the 9/11 Commission, the Dulles Airport terminal control facility in Washington has been looking for unidentified primary radar blips since 9:21 a.m. and now finds one. Several Dulles flight controllers “observed a primary radar target tracking eastbound at a high rate of speed” and notify Reagan Airport. FAA personnel at both Reagan and Dulles airports notify the Secret Service. The identity or aircraft type is unknown. However, other accounts place the discovery of this plane by Dulles around 9:24 a.m. , and Vice President Cheney is told radar is tracking Flight 77 at 9:27 a.m."
Ok, we have conflicting reports here: official (discovered at 0932) and others, before.
Let's read the official version: (in blue) as it's written in the report
"The Command Center kept looking for American 77. At 9:21, it advised the Dulles terminal control facility, and Dulles urged its controllers to look for primary targets. At 9:32, they found one. Several of the Dulles controllers observed a primary radar target tracking eastbound at a high rate of speed”and notified Reagan National Airport.FAA personnel at both Reagan National and Dulles airports notified the Secret Service.The aircraft’s identity or type was unknown.146"
(chap 1 page 25 of the pdf file)
If you say several controlers at Dulles only found it, eastbound, at 0932, you have to cite a source.
let's check the note?
146
"
146. John Hendershot interview (Dec. 22, 2003)."
Who is this John Hendershot and where is the interview (Dec. 22, 2003)? I looked it up on the internet. Apart from web pages citing the official report, i found a bunch of guys who lived in the 19th century, or a Califirnian citizen whitout any connection to 9/11... Maybe an undercover USSS agent...
But who is this guy?
The commission's evidence to prove Dulles only located 77 at 0932 is unsubstantiated. They have nothing else.
And now, in green, plenty of accounts saying 77 was located before 0932.
The Commission did not take them into account. Instead they rely on an unpublished interview with a guy we know nothing about.
2. According to other sources: F77 was located before 0932:
- 9:24 a.m.): By Some Accounts, FAA Notifies NORAD Flight 77 Is Hijacked and Washington-Bound; 9/11 Commission Claims This Never Happens
Shortly after 9/11, NORAD reported that the FAA notified them at this time that Flight 77 “may” have been hijacked and that it appears headed toward Washington. [North American Aerospace Defense Command, 9/18/2001; Associated Press, 8/19/2002; CNN, 9/17/2001; Washington Post, 9/12/2001; Guardian, 10/17/2001] Apparently, flight controllers at Dulles International Airport discover a plane heading at high speed toward Washington; an alert is sounded within moments that the plane appears to be headed toward the White House. [Washington Post, 11/3/2001] In 2003, the FAA supported this account, but claimed that they had informally notified NORAD earlier. “NORAD logs indicate that the FAA made formal notification about American Flight 77 at 9:24 a.m. (see (9:24 a.m.) September 11, 2001), but information about the flight was conveyed continuously during the phone bridges before the formal notification.” [Federal Aviation Administration, 5/22/2003] Yet in 2004, the 9/11 Commission claims that both NORAD and the FAA are wrong. The 9/11 Commission explains that the notification NEADS received at 9:24 a.m. was the incorrect information that Flight 11 had not hit the WTC and was headed south for Washington, D.C. Thus, according to the 9/11 Commission, NORAD is never notified by the FAA about the hijacking of Flight 77, but accidentally learns about it at 9:34 a.m. (see 9:34 a.m. September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004]________________
My real point is many radars saw F77 inbound to Washington from the North-east. It flew along the White House, and later did a sharp descending turn to hit the Pentagon.
However, the exact F77 flightpath remains very controversial, so let's not elaborate too much on this now
_________________
Finally, why do i think happened? Well, i think Cheney lied about when he got to the PEOC. he lied to cover the fact he monitored the incoming F77. How did he do it? hard to say. All I know is the USSS has in theory the technical means to do it. Check that cooperative research timeline post:
(September 2000 and after): Secret Service Has Air Surveillance Capabilities
It is reported that the US Secret Service is using an “air surveillance system” called Tigerwall. This serves to “ensure enhanced physical security at a high-value asset location by providing early warning of airborne threats.”
Tigerwall “provides the Secret Service with a geographic display of aircraft activity and provides security personnel long-range camera systems to classify and identify aircraft. Sensor data from several sources are fused to provide a unified sensor display.” [US Department of Defense, 2000; US Department of the Navy, 9/2000, pp. 28] Among its responsibilities, the Secret Service protects America’s highest elected officials, including the president and vice president, and also provides security for the White House Complex. [US Congress, 5/1/2003] Its largest field office with over 200 employees is in New York, in Building 7 of the World Trade Center. [Tech TV, 7/23/2002]
Whether the Secret Service, in New York or Washington, will make use of Tigerwall on 9/11 is unknown. The Secret Service appears to have other air surveillance capabilities. Counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke will describe that on 9/11, the Secret Service had “a system that allowed them to see what FAA’s radar was seeing.” [Clarke, 2004, pp. 7]
Barbara Riggs, a future deputy director of the Secret Service who is in its Washington, DC headquarters on 9/11, will describe the Secret Service “monitoring radar” during the attacks. [PCCW Newsletter, 3/2006; Star-Gazette (Elmira), 6/5/2006] Furthermore, since 1974 the Secret Service operations center has possessed a special communications line from the control tower of Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport. This hotline allows air traffic controllers monitoring local radar to inform agents at the White House of any planes that are off course or appear to be on a “threatening vector.” [Time, 9/26/1994]
cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=tigerwall&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go
___________________________
So not only the official account is fuzzy (Dulles in fact located inbound 77 before 0932) but i think there are serious chances USSS was actually monitoring F77 as it flew above Washington on its way to the Pentagon.
Now, what kinf of weapons could they use that day to shoot or stand down?
I think there were no fighters around (even tough with real willingness to do something they may have intercepted F77).
However it is known USSS also has anti-aircraft capabilities. (FM-92 Stingers) Since the 1994 crash, the P56 airspace was defended. The Pentagon may not have had defenses. The White House had some.
So I made a scenario includng all my findings. I'll post it if you find major flaws in what i've just exposed.
Thanks very much for reading.
