Responding to CTers

bignickel

Mad Mod Poet God
bignickel
Joined
Aug 14, 2002
Messages
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Location
Somewhere, USA
I've been thinking about making this thread for awhile, but R. Mackey's recent 'victory' thread got me off my butt.

I've noticed that we've had an awful lot (in both senses of the word) of CTers come in here over the last year, post their attacks on this or that WTC related business, and then get 10 pages out of any given thread (not to mention the 150 page "Christophera Show")

Is this really what we want to do from here to eternity? Is this really what we're here for? They come in, post the usual junk, and skeptics have to debate them for 10 pages, for each thread; is this really productive?

Honestly: isn't the onus for proof on them at this point? I was thinking that it at this point of time, we're done all this stuff to death, and it's time to demand something else from the CTers. Perhaps, since the burden of proof is on them, everytime they open yet another "what about this..?! And this...?!" thread, we should say:
"All the evidence points to a collapse caused by structural failure due to fire and damage weakening the buildings so much that their structural elements failed. Therefore, if it your claim that something differant happened, the burden of proof is on you to provide an alternate theory. Present it, and we will examine it."

Thoughts?
 
I'm simply amusing myself. I've known conspiracy folks all my life and find them a fascinating tribe. I know I won't change any CT minds.

Not to suck up, but I really think the JREF folks deserve a healthy pat on the back for nailing the CTs, in no uncertain terms, over and over again. This place is a cornucopia of debunkings--and you can quote me on that.

Since the mainstream media has until recently never discussed the CT universe, it's important to have accurate debunkings available. There are people who, through no fault of their own, have heard only the CT side of the story. That's not so rare. It can easily happen here in Austin, where CTs blather on the airwaves night and day. So the JREF forum is useful to them, if to no one else.

Plus, like I say, it's an interesting topic. It's fun to debate. Yatta yatta.
 
I think you make a critical oversight when you assume that the only people involved in a debate thread are the people debating.

For every CTer who refuses to be convinced, there are 10 lurkers who can be.

That's why this tripe needs to be opposed, so the people who are trying to get answers can find them.
 
Casually surveying the Truthiness Movement landscape from time to time, it seems pretty obvious to me that all this debunking has had a dramatic effect. It appears to me that the center of the movement has been rapidly retreating from the more outlandish claims and positioning itself as probably LIHOP / possibly MIHOP / definitely need a new investigation. The Pentagon and Shanksville claims are generally not taken very seriously anymore. The controlled demolition arguments are relying more and more on trying to falsify the NIST account and presenting the false dichotomy that if NIST is wrong, then it must have been a CD. The torchbearers of the movement are fighting amongst themselves and have been shown to lack credibility.

It's a movement imploding, and I give a large portion of the credit to the debunking effort.
 
The conspiracists keep bringing out the same arguments again and again. That's certainly annoying, but it also makes our job easier.

What about having a FAQ? 911myths.com is great, but I don't know if it's organized in a useful way as a reference. Imagine doing this:

CTer: "What about the holographic planes?"
JREFer: "We already answered that in the 9/11 FAQ, Section A, Part 7."
Click to expand...
I think a reference would be good if it can be organized by letters and numbers. Ten years ago, a group of anarchists put together "An Anarchist FAQ" because they tired of answering the same questions and misconceptions again and again on the Internet. Even if you don't agree with their politics, you might find the structure of such a FAQ really handy. Once it's written, everyone doesn't have to keep reinventing the wheel. It's also a handy introduction for newbies, and it catches them up more quickly to the current level of debate.

If you all would like to do something similar, maybe you could organize a basic reference-usable structure. Then someone could set up a wiki with editting access given only to demonstratedly trustworthy JREFers. Maybe you could have a small body of editors to keep it organized and integrate new contributions into the structure. One key goal should be to make it easy to dip in and find a specific answer, without having to wade through everything else. But if they want more, a reader also has everything else before them in one document.

Every few months, a list of the latest additions could be announced, to get people reading them (especially newbies) and to encourage more contributions. And when it reaches a certain point, it can be published, with sales going to support this website. Or something.

And why stop at 9/11? Why not have a FAQ for all of the conspiracies that didn't happen, and for other unsupportable claims?
 
bignickel said:
...

Is this really what we want to do from here to eternity? Is this really what we're here for? They come in, post the usual junk, and skeptics have to debate them for 10 pages, for each thread; is this really productive?

...

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I suspect, because there are no figures, that many of the woo-woos that come on a site like this want their beliefs challenged, which could be their first step on the road to recovery. There are some true believers who are evangelical in their beliefs, and it is frustrating wasting time on them. Despite of this I still think it is worth responding to evangelical believers in the hope that people sitting on the fence will read it. In practical terms a few prominent Scientologists left their religion in part because they were exposed to views on the Internet. I don't think people immediately change their mind, but they may walk away from their keyboard and eventually change their mind. Sure, there are sites that already debunk many of the subjects discussed, but a forum is much more personal. Sceptical catechism can be more effective than just putting the information out there. Tedious as it is.
 
G-K-4 said:
What about having a FAQ? 911myths.com is great, but I don't know if it's organized in a useful way as a reference.
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It isn't organised at all. :)

Okay, maybe not quite true, but I know it's rubbish right now. If it's any help, I plan to have it in a much more usable, searchable wiki-type format some time next year, maybe by the spring. (Which isn't to say similar, or even larger projects to cover everything aren't a good idea, too -- the more sites we have, the better.)
 
JREFers are not making the slightest bit of difference. There simply isn't enough of you/
 
MikeW said:
It isn't organised at all. :)

Okay, maybe not quite true, but I know it's rubbish right now. If it's any help, I plan to have it in a much more usable, searchable wiki-type format some time next year, maybe by the spring. (Which isn't to say similar, or even larger projects to cover everything aren't a good idea, too -- the more sites we have, the better.)
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Are you the guy that does 911myths? Why don't you debate?
 
Bell said:
3/4th against 1/4th? I'd say there's enough.
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But it was never more than a quarter. The truthers are still growing in numbers. More and more credible people are coming out. Even Fox news is allowing truthers to get some tv coverage and put website names out. You even have Hugo Chavez, a leader of a country demanding an international investigation. Do you think JREF is going to stop that momentum?
 
Docker said:
But it was never more than a quarter. The truthers are still growing in numbers. More and more credible people are coming out. Even Fox news is allowing truthers to get some tv coverage and put website names out. You even have Hugo Chavez, a leader of a country demanding an international investigation. Do you think JREF is going to stop that momentum?
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Do you?
 
I can understand providing information to all the lurkers out there, but do we really have to re-invent the wheel with each new 'Docker' and 'BS1234'?

I would think "This was covered in (Randi forum post link) before. And that was covered in (Randi forum post link) as well. Now, what's your alternate theory for what happened?" would be sufficient. And readers out there could check out the links, see the information, and know that the CTer still hasn't provided any alternate theories.

I think this would free up alot of time for Marky, Gravy, Abby et al to work more on side projects, instead of wasting time of stuff that's been done to death previously, typing typing typing the same answers. The magic of "Click & Paste" isn't only for CTers, you know! :)
 
Docker said:
JREFers are not making the slightest bit of difference. There simply isn't enough of you/
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If that were true (and I don't think it is), that would be Argumentum ad Populum; and not evidence to support your case.

Example:
There are more creationists than evolutionary biologists in the US. And, they are swamping science with examples of "special design". That does not mean the scientists won't eventually publish how those "designs" evolved.

Docker said:
But it was never more than a quarter. The truthers are still growing in numbers. More and more credible people are coming out. Even Fox news is allowing truthers to get some tv coverage and put website names out. You even have Hugo Chavez, a leader of a country demanding an international investigation. Do you think JREF is going to stop that momentum?
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Appeal to Authority, etc. Still not evidence to support your claim.
Example: No one stopped the momentum of the Red Scare for a while. That does not mean all those accusations of communism were accurate.

At least most JREFers appeal to empirical evidence.


bignickel said:
I can understand providing information to all the lurkers out there, but do we really have to re-invent the wheel with each new 'Docker' and 'BS1234'?

I would think "This was covered in (Randi forum post link) before. And that was covered in (Randi forum post link) as well. Now, what's your alternate theory for what happened?" would be sufficient. And readers out there could check out the links, see the information, and know that the CTer still hasn't provided any alternate theories.

I think this would free up alot of time for Marky, Gravy, Abby et al to work more on side projects, instead of wasting time of stuff that's been done to death previously, typing typing typing the same answers. The magic of "Click & Paste" isn't only for CTers, you know! :)
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The only problem is that the CTers are not likely to put much effort into following the links. You can lead a horse to water...
 
Anti-sophist said:
I think you make a critical oversight when you assume that the only people involved in a debate thread are the people debating.

For every CTer who refuses to be convinced, there are 10 lurkers who can be.

That's why this tripe needs to be opposed, so the people who are trying to get answers can find them.
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Well said. The average person doesn't know much about a lot of the things CTs claim to be experts in. The CT himself is almost always beyond hope but there are lots of people reading who could be swayed, both by the hardcore knowledge of the skeptics and the sidestepping of posters like Docker.
 
Docker, this is the issue where it fails. Your movement is based on numbers and momentum, Questions are encouraged, answers are not. To be part of the 'truth movement' is a 'cool' thing. What happens when the next generation thinks your a bunch of idiots and dont want to be in the cool club? Instead they jump on some other CT.

Its just another trend.
 
Docker said:
You even have Hugo Chavez, a leader of a country demanding an international investigation. Do you think JREF is going to stop that momentum?
Click to expand...


I don't generally reply to your posts but this one really stands out. Two points to make. One, that it is obvious to any first year poli sci student that Chavez will side with any kind of anti-Bush movement no matter how foolish it is. This is a common political tactic that has existed for as long as mass media has existed. Quaddafi, Khomeinei, Hussein, and Hitler are just a few examples of leaders who have done the exact same thing. Their effect...zero.

Second, a little over a year ago, the leader of Iran called for a new investigation into the Holocaust. Revisionists, sounding very much like you do in their arguments, supported this call for a "definitive" report on the Holocaust. The trouble is/was, the only people who believe there is any need for a comprehensive study is that tiny minority of wackos that support the revisionist stance (aka racists). The net effect on historical academia...zero.

The Cts would do well to learn something. No change will come from convincing the common rabble of anything (sorry if that sounds elitist but I am trying to be direct). The United States ranks behind only Turkey (among 16 major nations) in their denial of the theory of evolution, yet this has not affected the advancement of this science, simply because it is backed by the people who know and understand the science. The rejection of CT claims among academia is similar to the support of evolution, pretty much total. This will not change until you can actually put together some scientific evidence and present it in an appropriate forum (this does not include the internet in any way). CTs avoid this because, like the intelligent design fellows, they know they would be eaten alive.

I could, of course, quibble, about the numbers you present, I know of no poll that properly backs them. I won't because it might draw us into a debate about the infamous Zogby poll, and I am not sure if I am in the mood for comedy tonight.
 
hellaeon said:
Docker, this is the issue where it fails. Your movement is based on numbers and momentum, Questions are encouraged, answers are not. To be part of the 'truth movement' is a 'cool' thing. What happens when the next generation thinks your a bunch of idiots and dont want to be in the cool club? Instead they jump on some other CT.

Its just another trend.
Click to expand...

Yeah world leaders, politicians and ex CIA dudes are known for being trendy people.
 
Docker said:
Yeah world leaders, politicians and ex CIA dudes are known for being trendy people.
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Of course Bush Sr and Bush Jr are trendy. The Bush twins got them IPods!:rolleyes:

9/11 truth movement like previous conspiract theories allow politics to paint previous world events instead of facts. It makes them feel important like they have a secret knowledge.
 
firecoins said:
Of course Bush Sr and Bush Jr are trendy. The Bush twins got them IPods!:rolleyes:

9/11 truth movement like previous conspiract theories allow politics to paint previous world events instead of facts. It makes them feel important like they have a secret knowledge.
Click to expand...


I never knew economics and psychology were interchangable. I am not a CT. I am a CR, a conspiracy realist. Do you think I want 911 to be a conspiracy? I'd much rather think governments were good.

I think skeptics are just head buryers. They want order.
 
Docker said:
But it was never more than a quarter. The truthers are still growing in numbers. More and more credible people are coming out. Even Fox news is allowing truthers to get some tv coverage and put website names out. You even have Hugo Chavez, a leader of a country demanding an international investigation. Do you think JREF is going to stop that momentum?
Click to expand...
Chavez is also waving around Noam Chomsky books and equating Bush to Satan at the UN. The sane world is laughing at him.

Fox was putting Troothers on around the 9/11 anniversary to laugh at them or yell at them.

The fifth anniversary raised the Truthiness Movement's profile as high as it's ever going to get. Anyone intrigued enough to find out more encounters a widespread debunking effort. JREF forum members are a small (though exemplary) part of that.

Your movement has peaked. That momentum you feel is gravitational acceleration. Don't worry, though. The movement is also falling to pieces, and according to CT logic, that means you'll have no more energy left when you land, so you don't have to worry about a hard and painful impact.
 
Docker said:
I never knew economics and psychology were interchangable. I am not a CT. I am a CR, a conspiracy realist. Do you think I want 911 to be a conspiracy?
Click to expand...
Yes.

I'd much rather think governments were good.

I think skeptics are just head buryers. They want order.
Click to expand...
No, we embrace chaos and complexity and the reality that no great and powerful Oz is in control.
 
Docker said:
JREFers are not making the slightest bit of difference. There simply isn't enough of you/
Click to expand...

it may be very self critiquing for you

but the rest of us do make a difference

I am an expert, I am the source, this is a fact, you can settle for your statement, you are one of us

how can you be wrong all of the time (lll)
 
Docker said:
I think skeptics are just head buryers. They want order.
Click to expand...
I'd say it's CTs who want order. Something shocking and brutal, like 9/11, can't have been planned by a few people from foreign parts, for no other reason than they think we deserve it. No, it must have been pulled off by the US government, using the most sophisticated equipment they could lay their hands on, all as a pretext to go to war, thousands of conspirators working in harmony, all completely loyal to the plan.

Does that really sound less like "order" than a score of fanatics catching a complacent nation completely unprepared?

Also, every conspiracy theorist at some point says "I don't believe it; I knwo* it." You're now part of the club.


*I spelled it wrong but left it like that as I find the reference to the NWO funny.
 
Docker said:
JREFers are not making the slightest bit of difference. There simply isn't enough of you/
Click to expand...

I guess that makes us the minority of people searching for the truth, and conspiracy theorists the conformist oppressors. As for making a difference I think anyone reading your evasive responses to straight questions will be an instant sceptic.
 
Docker said:
I never knew economics and psychology were interchangable. I am not a CT. I am a CR, a conspiracy realist. Do you think I want 911 to be a conspiracy? I'd much rather think governments were good.

I think skeptics are just head buryers. They want order.
Click to expand...

how can skeptics be head buryers, are not ct dolts skeptics, or claim to be skeptical of the "official story", how can you have it both ways unless you are a ct dolt, why dolt, I have found the entire truth movement to be junk, not a single thing has come out, nor anything new, just the same old stuff, I agree with the first post ( you act like a CT guy, or alex jones)


You act like a CT truther tin foil hat Alex Jones want to be, you also sound like, you are acting like, and you act like you are wrong just

But that is just my opinion, you are trying to be vague so and abrasive so you can be treated as a CT, then are you going to run back to LC and tell how you fooled the jref, who with bignickel's post show more maturity and intelligence that you or I
 
Docker said:
Not a chance. I'm sure you do a good job giving people you talk to facts and i'm sure your doing it for the right reasons. But there arent enough of you
Click to expand...

Of course there are enough of us.

Even if you are "growing in numbers" -- which I suspect is a lie -- there are still more of us.

And I don't mean just JREF posters. I mean people with enough sense to tell your b**ls**t from shinola.

Who in the world is going to believe you, for example, when you spend page after page refusing to answer 3 simple questions I put to you? Anyone and everyone who reads that thread will immediately see that you are simply ignoring 3 points which toss your theory into a cocked hat once and for all.

If you think you're a force to be reckoned with, you're deluding yourself. Which isn't surprising because only someone able to do that, in spades, could believe the nonsense you're peddling.
 
Docker said:
I think skeptics are just head buryers.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Is that why, Mr. I Hate Head Buryers, you have refused, page after page after page, to answer my simple questions on your "Look at this collapse" thread, when everybody and his grandmother can see that you're burying your head?

Why do you ignore my questions, post after post after post?

Do you think no one sees this?

It's you who believes that everyone is as gullible as you are.

Fortunately, very few people actually are.
 
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Docker said:
But it was never more than a quarter. The truthers are still growing in numbers. More and more credible people are coming out. Even Fox news is allowing truthers to get some tv coverage and put website names out. You even have Hugo Chavez, a leader of a country demanding an international investigation. Do you think JREF is going to stop that momentum?
Click to expand...


.00067 percent of all engineers in the united states are troofers, or nut cases for 9/11 lies,

looks like 90 percent of high school dropouts believe anything they can find on the internet, your lemmings for CT on 9/11

Fox news called them idiots, doltish, worthless

Hugo Chavez, nut case, CTs are nut cases, who think Hugo Chavez is their hero,

Now if Hugo would give me some free fuel I can be bought, and I will march with the CT movement, yes that is me throwing up on Alex Jones, but I am marching, oops, I can help these guys

Hugo Chavez = CT nutcase = AlexJones = Docker ? what do you think

Hugo wants investigate nut job theories, OBL wants Kerry, what is new

Yes the nut cases could take over, it will not be the first time idiots have screwed up everything, NAZIs, and the CT guys act the part, (NAZI burned books, CT guys fail to use real science and research, they use hearsay, just comments, no facts; like NAZIs burning books)

Are you a CT NAZI spy? only a CT NAZI would use credible and Hugo in the same posting! (proof of your true LC nature)
 
Very good points, bignickel, Jack, GK4 and others.

I think it would very useful to develop either an FAQ or to keep track of threads where the same old CTs have been thoroughly debunked and then point to those rather than rehashing the same things over and over again.

That said, it is also sometimes very useful to engage directly with the newest (or most recently recycled) johnny come lately tinhatter, by repeating the facts and evidence in detail and taking on their stupid claims yet again.

But, I would also add - and I think this is just as important as the points above - I think that JREFers collectively should not allow idiots like Docker, for instance, to disrupt every thread on the forum with nonsense. For instance, he (or one of his cohorts) posts something stupid and unrelated to the topic in the middle of a rational discussion about topic X, someone responds to his stupid post, he responds with another stupid post while changing the subject entirely to topic Y, someone else responds because it's just so tempting, and before you know it, it's just another BS thread of the same crap over and over again in which people like Docker and BS1234 and their other incarnations and predecessors continuously post nonsense, ignore facts and reality, never read a thing, and turn nearly every thread about a specific topic into just another flamefest of a hundred topics as they bob and weave and act like morons.

I think that we, collectively, should make an effort not to allow them to disrupt numerous threads using these juvenile tactics.

In my view, when the nutjobs attempt to derail a thread that has nothing to do with whatever their latest attempted derail is, it would make sense to either ignore the attempted derail or, better, to post something to the effect of "this particular thread is about X. There are numerous threads to discuss your points Y, Z, A, B, C here:..." and then for the rest of the participants in the thread to ignore the derailer's further attempts to derail by either ignoring the further attempts to derail or by responding only to the effect that there are threads here, here and here, to discuss this topic, as noted above, etc.

I grow weary of seeing so many threads about good topics get turned into just another blah blah blah blah tinhatter-throwing-every-stupid-long debunked-nonsensical-theory-and-nonsensical-post-at-the-wall kind of thread.

There, that was my $0.02 worth.
 
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beachnut said:
.
00067 percent of all engineers in the united states are troofers, or nut cases for 9/11 lies,
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Have you spoken to every engineer?

l
ooks like 90 percent of high school dropouts believe anything they can find on the internet, your lemmings for CT on 9/11
Click to expand...
Source?
Fox news called them idiots, doltish, worthless
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Shows why CTs won't come forward
Hugo Chavez, nut case, CTs are nut cases, who think Hugo Chavez is their hero,
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How many countries do you run?



Are you a CT NAZI spy? only a CT NAZI would use credible and Hugo in the same posting! (proof of your true LC nature)
Click to expand...

Erm enough said
Click to expand...
 
Docker said:
JREFers are not making the slightest bit of difference. There simply isn't enough of you/
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Oh bugger! Why didn't someone tell us this earlier?

O.K. guys - you heard him. We may as well all go home, now.

Last one out, get the lights, will you?
 
I'm going to take an unusual-for-me middle of the road position here and agree with LashL, bignickel, and the naysayers.

When CTs go trolling on non-CT threads, they should be starved, not fed.

It would be helpful to have a sticky thread where definitive 9/11 debunks are posted (perhaps admins could help with this?).

But on CT threads, I reserve the right to hound an evasive CTer to the virtual grave, just so no matter what page a searcher lands on, they'll be certain to see that these evasive liars are exactly that.

What these people are doing is not just some childish exercise. They are leveling horrendous charges of conspiracy, treason, and murder against dozens, even hundreds, of real people. They deserve to be exposed.
 
Still avoiding me, Docker?

You still won't answer my 3 little questions?

For all your bluster, you have the spine of a paperdoll.
 
LashL said:
In my view, when the nutjobs attempt to derail a thread that has nothing to do with whatever their latest attempted derail is, would be to either ignore the attempted derail or, better, to post something to the effect of "this particular thread is about X. There are numerous threads to discuss your points Y, Z, A, B, C here:..." and then for the rest of the participants in the thread to ignore their further attempts at derail by either ignoring the further attempts to derail or by responding only to the effect that there are threads here, here and here, to discuss this topic, etc.
Click to expand...

This sounds like a healthy balance. It seems Docker wants to force people into ad-hominem positions by evading any effective counterarguments. I think it should be taken on a case-by-case basis because it is possible to express the same argument with different connotations and in different contexts. For those reasons a comment or synopsis may be required with a post that has links to older threads of their nonsense.
 
Docker said:
I think skeptics are just head buryers. They want order.
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I think it's you that wants order dicker.

Unable to believe that anybody other than the US and the mighty military machine could pull off something as dreadful as 911. Unable to accept the fact that beyond the shores there is genuine hatred of the US and her allies. This hatred spilled over on 911 and produced the most horrific act of terrorism ever. Through no fault of their own innocent people paid the price, the horrific price for politicians doing exactly what you are doing. Burying their heads in the sand and pretending it isn't there.

The truth dicker is far more horrific that any of you and your fellow conspirators could ever dream up. That being a small minority of people can be radicalized so much and filled with so much hatred they will hijack four planes. They will kill all in their paths and fly them into buildings full of innocent people.

I wish you were right and I wish it was just Bush and a few nutty neocons because your option is by far the more pleasant one. It is by far the easier option. Your option means we are not hated, it means that dreadful terrorist actions carried out by hated filled extremists will never happen again.

Your simple and naive believe in the James Bond style bad guy is your undoing. It simply shows the absolute simplistic way you view this entire world. In your world everything is controlled, there is always somebody planning and covering it all up. In reality the world is full of diversity, differing opinions and unfortunately hatred.

I'd like to join you in your fairy tale with Gold Finger and his dastardly plan for world domination but unfortunately reality intervenes.
 
beachnut said:
00067 percent of all engineers in the united states are troofers, or nut cases for 9/11 lies
Click to expand...

I work in the design and construction industry. From my experience in discussing 9/11 Keebler Kookiness with structural engineers who design high rises, .00067 percent is a gross overestimate.
 
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