Conspiracy Files - The Oklahoma Bomb

Brian Pears

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Brian Pears
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Next week's Conspiracy Files programme on BBC2 (4th March) concerns the Oklahoma Bomb and the ideas that McVeigh didn't act alone and the government are covering up the conspiracy/the government let it happen/the government encouraged it to happen etc. I must admit to knowing very little about this case and this particular bunch of CTs - they aren't particularly well known in the UK. Can anyone recommend a decent website about the bombing - it's hard to find anything sensible amid the dross.
 
Next week's Conspiracy Files programme on BBC2 (4th March) concerns the Oklahoma Bomb and the ideas that McVeigh didn't act alone and the government are covering up the conspiracy/the government let it happen/the government encouraged it to happen etc.
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And the guv let it happen/made it happen in order to.....what?

Bomb Bosnia?
 
Try Court TV, they have unedited trial transcripts. Here's the link:
http://www.courttv.com/archive/casefiles/oklahoma/

I think alot of the CT woo from this case comes from the fact that the folks that rented McVeigh the van he used in the bombing said there was another man, (not Terry Nichols) with him. This figure became known as "John Doe 2" and was never found, if he ever existed at all.
 
Howdy, Brian.

I don't know of a debunking site pear se. ;)

We've had some discussions here, but only touched tangentially on the "acting alone" aspect.

JREFer Z on Tim McVeigh's capabilities

Gravy on CT claims of additional bombs found in the Murrah building

Gravy on CT claims that Federal BATF agents weren't in the building because they'd been "tipped off" about the bombing

Gravy's OKC bomb quiz for Docker (pdoherty76)


Ah, pdoherty76. Here's a quote of his from the above thread:
You admit your not an engineer, yet you constantly cite a body of experts when you defend the collapse of wtc.
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I miss the little sock puppet. Sniff, sniff.


Other links (several are PDF documents)

Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee of the House International Relations Committee: Oklahoma City Bombing: Was There A Foreign Connection?

Findings from above report:

1) The FBI was not justified in calling off any further investigation into John Doe Two.

2) The FBI did not thoroughly investigate the potential involvement of Andreas Strassmeir and Hussain al-Hussaini, et. al. despite evidence showing they may have played a role.

3) Authorities erred in allowing Timothy McVeigh to move forward the time of his execution while major questions remained about whether others were involved in the crime.

4) The DoJ has not seriously examined new information uncovered by this subcommittee. Specifically: phone records from Ramzi Yousef to a friend of Nichols’ in-laws as well as the name Samir Khalil appearing on an unindicted coconspirators World Trade Center bombing list.

5) Whether or not there was a foreign connection to the bombing is inconclusive. Questions remain unanswered and mysteries remain unresolved.
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The Daily Oklahoman and News9 coverage: 9:02 April 19th

OKC Bombing Court TV Coverage (includes transcripts) 1998

Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building Bombing, April 19, 1995: Final Report. July 1996.

Oklahoma City bombing after action report

Analysis of Blast Damage to the Murrah Building

Blast Loading and Response of Murrah Building

Using Forensic Engineering Techniques to Obtain Data From the Oklahoma City Bombing

Investigation of Physical Injuries Directly Associated with the Oklahoma City Bombing.

Critical Information Flows in the Alfred P. Murrah Building Bombing: A Case Study. (2002)

Media Interaction With the Public in Emergency Situations: Four Case Studies.

Oklahoma City Bombing: Immediate Response Authority and Other Military Assistance to Civil Authority (MACA, July 1997)
 
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Gravy said:
Howdy, Brian.

I don't know of a debunking site pear se. ;)
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Right, that's it. I thought your knowledge of 9/11 was born out of a personal interest given you're a NYC resident yourself. But now this. You're clearly not human. I call shill. Obviously you're a team of disinfo agents working 24/7 with the aid of a series of super-computers.

You're not fooling anyone, Gravy.

-Gumboot
 
Actually when Roxdog from the LCF came here (I think it was him) a few phone calls to the BATF made a few facts clearer. Such as where their office was in the building (the opposite side from the explosion). If the BBC does at least that, and judging from the 9-11 episode they will, the CTers are going to have a tough time.
 
Gravy said:
3) Authorities erred in allowing Timothy McVeigh to move forward the time of his execution while major questions remained about whether others were involved in the crime.
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So now we have evidence of a government cover-up. The government executed one of the witnesses. One who knows a lot about the crime itself. This means more than most other people. He may have been the main criminal involved (hard to believe he was only one) but he now cannot answer any further questions that may come up.
 
What exactly is the motive behind the "government bombing" of this building?

I read the story on infowars.com, lol. Apparantly the Gov't is now trying to stop this from coming to light because it would blow the lid off of 9/11. Why exactly did the Gov't do this bombing then? Is it to make us comfortable with the idea that the Gov't would spy on it citizens within the US? I fail to see the motive behind this attack.
 
Gravy, most of the mipt.org links in your list appear to be outdated; clicking on them takes you to the homepage rather than to the specific document. What works for finding the documents you've cited is to select the "terrorism library" link on the homepage and then do a search for keywords in the document title e.g. "blast loading". Clicking on the document title in the search results will download the .pdf.

At least that's how it worked using Safari.
 
I'm going to play at being a CT here and speculate:

Some agents of the USG infiltrated the nutjob militia that McVeigh was a part of and actually helped him get the stuff together to make the bomb, not thinking he would go through with it or thinking they would stop him in time. They stuffed up and subsequently stifled the investigation to avoid incriminating themselves.

That's my CT for the day. FBI spooks helping a dumb militia guy turn into a mass murderer then covering their asses.
 
Show just finished, what did you people who watched it think? Some interesting points on both sides
 
I thought that the people trying to identify John Doe 2 and link him to Neo-Nazis and a possible FBI sting were stretching some pretty circumstantial evidence past breaking point. I feel the format maybe didn't give the FBI investigators time to explain in detail why they decided that John Doe 2 didn't exist - on the face of it, it sounded unlikely, but I'd like to see the detail of their decision.

I tend to agree that the idea of an FBI sting that put peoples' lives at risk was ridiculous.

I'd be surpised if any of conspiracy theory would stand up in court. I'm not sure what a grand jury would achieve.

On the whole, I thought it was a disappointing documentary because it couldn't get into the detail of what happened and why in the investigation.
 
Brainache said:
I'm going to play at being a CT here and speculate:

Some agents of the USG infiltrated the nutjob militia that McVeigh was a part of and actually helped him get the stuff together to make the bomb, not thinking he would go through with it or thinking they would stop him in time. They stuffed up and subsequently stifled the investigation to avoid incriminating themselves.

That's my CT for the day. FBI spooks helping a dumb militia guy turn into a mass murderer then covering their asses.
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Your are close.
The ATF knew there was going to be a bombing that morning at the government building. They had an informant near McVey. ATF agents were seen early that morning looking for a bomb around the building. They apparently got the information wrong from their informant. The agents gave up and went home to sleep when the bomb went off.

John Doe #2 may have been the informant. After the bombing there was an extra leg that could not be matched with any known victims.
 
MaGZ said:
Your are close.
The ATF knew there was going to be a bombing that morning at the government building. They had an informant near McVey. ATF agents were seen early that morning looking for a bomb around the building. They apparently got the information wrong from their informant. The agents gave up and went home to sleep when the bomb went off.

John Doe #2 may have been the informant. After the bombing there was an extra leg that could not be matched with any known victims.
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That's it for me. I'm not going to pretend to be a CTer anymore. When people like MaGZ start agreeing with me I know I'm wrong.
 
I was disappointed. Not in the programme, but in the CT - I hoped that here, at long last, was a real conspiracy, but as with all the others we only have an excess of hot air, with nothing which could be called evidence.

McVeigh phoned a white supremacist colony which was temporary home to some weird characters. Does that prove conspiracy? No! Does the call necessarily relate to the Oklahoma Bomb in any way? No! Does it prove anything at all? No!

In the early stages of the inquiry there was thought to be a John Doe 2, but the FBI later decided he didn't exist. So what? Eyewitnesses are unreliable. Many investigations change direction in an equally significant way as evidence accumulates and is evaluated. Does it prove conspiracy? No!

And so it goes on. Anything which McVeigh did and everyone he contacted or was involved with in any way is woven into the CT. Evidence discounted by the FBI instantly assumes great significance and is eagerly added to the mixture - and, of course, anything which deviates from their simplistic idea of how an investigation should proceed is said to be evidence of an FBI cover-up.

Just another nonsense CT I'm afraid. Well done BBC.
 
I thought that the program was disappointing. At some points they were trusting the words of a white-supremacist spiritual leader.

When watching the program, I didn't feel like I was watching a show about a conspiracy theory. There didn't seem to be any debunked because there didn't seem to be any kind of conspiracy theory. :confused:
 
MaGZ said:
Your are close.
The ATF knew there was going to be a bombing that morning at the government building. They had an informant near McVey. ATF agents were seen early that morning looking for a bomb around the building. They apparently got the information wrong from their informant. The agents gave up and went home to sleep when the bomb went off.
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If you had read my posts linked above, you would know that five of the BATF's 10 OKC employees were in the Murrah building when the bomb went off. Four others were working their regular assignments in the field. One was at home with a back injury. Two were trapped in the building for hours. Three were seriously injured.

Since you are wrong every time you make a claim, you should reevaluate how you get your information.
 
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Gravy said:
If you had read my posts linked above, you would know that five of the BATF's 10 OKC employees were in the Murrah building when the bomb went off. Four others were working their regular assignments in the field. One was at home with a back injury. Two were trapped in the building for hours. Three were seriously injured.

Since you are wrong every time you make a claim, you should reevaluate how you get your information.
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In most disasters you will find some people want to blame the survivors. It would seem that many in the CT community want the BATF agents to apologize for surviving.
 
CHF said:
And the guv let it happen/made it happen in order to.....what?
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To impose gun control legislation, and to discredit the militia movement in America.

I've read about some damning WACO evidence that was in the building, too, but can't remember the details.
 
MaGZ said:
Your are close.
The ATF knew there was going to be a bombing that morning at the government building. They had an informant near McVey. ATF agents were seen early that morning looking for a bomb around the building. They apparently got the information wrong from their informant. The agents gave up and went home to sleep when the bomb went off.

John Doe #2 may have been the informant. After the bombing there was an extra leg that could not be matched with any known victims.
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Much has been written about John Doe #2 being Jose Padilla. And that he is married to Terry Nichols's sister.

Nichols has been talking a lot from prison the past couple weeks. And a video surfaced a month or so ago, of McVeigh at a military base (Grafton) during the time the FBI lost his trail.

Do a search for "Bill Bean Timothy McVeigh".
 
skepticalcriticalguy said:
Much has been written about John Doe #2 being Jose Padilla. And that he is married to Terry Nichols's sister.

Nichols has been talking a lot from prison the past couple weeks. And a video surfaced a month or so ago, of McVeigh at a military base (Grafton) during the time the FBI lost his trail.

Do a search for "Bill Bean Timothy McVeigh".
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I did the search and found with one simple test that this story is junk!

The key to being junk is infowars.com. Simple Debuinking. Quick, effective; if infowars.com says it, it is junk. Good job.
 
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skepticalcriticalguy said:
Much has been written about John Doe #2 being Jose Padilla. And that he is married to Terry Nichols's sister.

Nichols has been talking a lot from prison the past couple weeks. And a video surfaced a month or so ago, of McVeigh at a military base (Grafton) during the time the FBI lost his trail.

Do a search for "Bill Bean Timothy McVeigh".
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Well, watch the video and listen to the interview with Bean. Interesting stuff.
 
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