Entropy, order and life

wogoga said:

Neodarwinism however seems to me a rather absurd creation theory, because it assumes that the universe was hyper-designed and super-created by a big bang in such a complex way that blind downhill processes (increasing entropy) can design and create whole ecosystems.

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Normal Dude said:

I suggest you look up the difference between a closed and open system.

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Which of the following statements are wrong within the materialist reductionist framework?

1. The obvious increase in order resp. complexity (of galaxies, planetary systems, ecosystems, civilizations) is caused by blind downhill processes (transforming less probable states into more probable states).
   
2. All downhill processes increase entropy and decrease order of the interacting systems as a whole.
   
3. The universe is a closed system, i.e. it does not interact with other systems.
   
4. The entropy of the universe is continuously increasing and its order continuously decreasing.
   
5. The order of the universe was highest (and its entropy lowest) just after its creation by a big explosion.
   
6. The increase in order on earth is only possible because it is compensated by a decrease in order on the sun.

wogoga said:

BTW, do you know that from a logical viewpoint reductionism implies, that a just hatched chick is less ordered (complex) than the just fertilized egg, because only processes which increase entropy are possible? (The open/closed-system confusion is pointless in this context.)

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We can put the just fertilized egg together with enough atmosphere of the right temperature in a big enough box and consider the whole box as a closed system. The composition of the air in the box will change during the development of the chick, but to consider this change as a decrease in order seems quite absurd to me. Because the box with the just hatched chick is considered a state resulting only from blind downhill processes affecting previous higher-order states, we must conclude:

The box with the just hatched chick is less ordered than the box with the just fertilized egg.

Cheers, Wolfgang
members.lol.li/twostone/E/deja5.html

wogoga said:

Which of the following statements are wrong within the materialist reductionist framework?

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None of them, as far as I can tell quickly. But none of them are relevant, either.

Which of the following statements are wrong within your particular philosophical framework?

1. The freezing point of water is 0 degrees C.
2. A touchdown in American football is worth 6 pts.
3. The tallest mountain on the land surface of the earth is Mt. Everest.
4. Some mammals lay eggs, but most give birth to live young
5. The state insect of Pennsylvania is the firefly.
6. The First World War started in 1914 and ended in 1918.

We can put the just fertilized egg together with enough atmosphere of the right temperature in a big enough box and consider the whole box as a closed system.

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No, we can't. In order to maintain the box at the right temperature, we will also need to provide energy. Therefore, it's not a closed system. But this is a minor point.

The composition of the air in the box will change during the development of the chick, but to consider this change as a decrease in order seems quite absurd to me.

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Whether or not it is absurd to you is more a statement of your own opinion than a fact of nature. Like it or not, there's substantial energy (and entropy) released from the chemical respiration. The conversion of chemical potential energy into (among other things) heat and motion is a decrease in order.

If you think that's not the case, then I suggest you get a tank of commercial carbon dioxide and try to extract "pure" oxygen from it. You can do it -- but it will take energy that you need to supply from somewhere. Hence the de-oxygenation of the air is not an entropy-neutrral process....

Because the box with the just hatched chick is considered a state resulting only from blind downhill processes affecting previous higher-order states, we must conclude:

The box with the just hatched chick is less ordered than the box with the just fertilized egg.

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Yup. The decrease in entropy of the chick is compensated by a greater increase in the entrropy of the surrounding environment. You've identified youself one of the sources of this entropy intcrease -- the change in the chemical composition of the atmosphere surrounding the chick.

wogoga said:

We can put the just fertilized egg together with enough atmosphere of the right temperature in a big enough box and consider the whole box as a closed system. The composition of the air in the box will change during the development of the chick, but to consider this change as a decrease in order seems quite absurd to me. Because the box with the just hatched chick is considered a state resulting only from blind downhill processes affecting previous higher-order states, we must conclude:

The box with the just hatched chick is less ordered than the box with the just fertilized egg.

Cheers, Wolfgang
members.lol.li/twostone/E/deja5.html

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You forget the source of energy that is consumed that allows for the development of chick. THis is in the form of large carbohydrate chains which get decomposed into co2 and water. Since the smaller molecules have more configurational freedom. their formation results in an increase in entropy.

wogoga said:

Which of the following statements are wrong within the materialist reductionist framework?

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Most of them - the second law of thermodynamics says that in a closed system entropy always increase or remains constant. This addition is small but crucial. Also, entropy remaining constant does not mean that nothing ever changes in the system, it means that the total entropy of the system never changes.

All bold text in the following quotes has been added by me in light of my above statement.

wogoga said:

The obvious increase in order resp. complexity (of galaxies, planetary systems, ecosystems, civilizations) is caused by blind downhill processes (transforming less probable states into more probable states).

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Be wary of "obvious" and "clear" conclusions, they are wrong more often than most people think. In this case, though, I believe your statement is correct.

wogoga said:

All downhill processes increase entropy and decrease order of the interacting systems as a whole or leaves them unaffected.

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wogoga said:

The universe is a closed system, i.e. it does not interact with other systems.

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True. I would even go so far as to say that regardless of your philosophical outlook this is true by definition since anything which "exists" is included in the "universe" (though in many belief systems the universe is not restricted to the material universe).

wogoga said:

The entropy of the universe is continuously increasing or remaining stable and its order continuously decreasing or remaining stable.

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wogoga said:

The order of the universe was highest (and its entropy lowest) just after its creation by a big explosion and for a finite, continuous length of time thereafter, possibly including the present.

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wogoga said:

The increase in order on earth is only possible because it is compensated by a decrease in order on the sun or elsewhere.

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My addition here is simply to remind you that the Earth does receive energy from other sources than the sun, though in comparatively minuscule amounts. As an example, we get tiny amounts of light from every star in the visible universe (by virtue of it being in the visible universe).

wogoga said:

Which of the following statements are wrong within the materialist reductionist framework?

1. The obvious increase in order resp. complexity (of galaxies, planetary systems, ecosystems, civilizations) is caused by blind downhill processes (transforming less probable states into more probable states).
   
2. All downhill processes increase entropy and decrease order of the interacting systems as a whole.
   
3. The universe is a closed system, i.e. it does not interact with other systems.
   
4. The entropy of the universe is continuously increasing and its order continuously decreasing.
   
5. The order of the universe was highest (and its entropy lowest) just after its creation by a big explosion.
   
6. The increase in order on earth is only possible because it is compensated by a decrease in order on the sun.

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I think the only thing you've got wrong is replacing technical terms with colloquial terms such as "order" and "explosion". Otherwise, you've nearly got it right.

Well done.

We can put the just fertilized egg together with enough atmosphere of the right temperature in a big enough box and consider the whole box as a closed system. The composition of the air in the box will change during the development of the chick, but to consider this change as a decrease in order seems quite absurd to me.

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Ah, well, that settles it. If something seems absurd to you, that's just plain wrong.

Perhaps you'd abolish quantum theory, general relativity and the oblate spheroid model of the Earth on your way out? Cheers.

Sheesh.

Because the box with the just hatched chick is considered a state resulting only from blind downhill processes affecting previous higher-order states, we must conclude:

The box with the just hatched chick is less ordered than the box with the just fertilized egg.

Cheers, Wolfgang
members.lol.li/twostone/E/deja5.html

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Have you ever considered what happens to the egg as the chick develops?

Heck, have you ever wondered why the egg is there in the first place?

Have you considered the incubation of the egg as a thermodynamic process?

No, of course you haven't.

wogoga said:

The increase in order on earth is only possible because it is compensated by a decrease in order on the sun.

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Let's stick with the term entropy, because that has a definite scientific meaning, whereas "order" does not. But you've got this wrong anyways. The sun is not affected by what happens on earth. But the earth can increase the entropy of the surrounding universe via blackbody radiation. Empty space is not empty, it has light moving through it constantly, and that light has entropy. By converting high-frequency photons into multiple low-frequency photons, we increase the entropy of the universe. And that's what earth does. It takes the high-energy photons it absorbs from the sun, and re-radiates that out as heat, but at lower frequency, with a greater number of photons, and thus with more entropy. Processes on earth which exploit that temperature differential can thus decrease entropy for some system, but still increase entropy for the universe as a whole. And what process is available to life which might do that? Well, it starts with photosynthesis. Photosynthesis only works, though, because the earth is part of a heat gradient. Without space around us into which we can dump heat, the process will break down.

We can put the just fertilized egg together with enough atmosphere of the right temperature in a big enough box and consider the whole box as a closed system. The composition of the air in the box will change during the development of the chick, but to consider this change as a decrease in order seems quite absurd to me.

Click to expand...

Eggs give off heat as they grow. This is a standard textbook thermodynamics problem, and is well understood. The decrease of entropy within the egg is only possible because the heat they give off while growing will increase the entropy of the world around them.

Because the box with the just hatched chick is considered a state resulting only from blind downhill processes affecting previous higher-order states, we must conclude:

The box with the just hatched chick is less ordered than the box with the just fertilized egg.

Click to expand...

And indeed it will be: it will be hotter, and that increase in entropy from being at a higher temperature will more than offset the decrease in entropy from the growth of the chick.

Creation just doesn't hang it...

A faither's creationist stand point is to 'claim' that a THING has created the Universe, yet ITself remained unchanged.... then they have the balls to try and argue a case using entropy?!

If THE LORD is everything - yet has recently created everything - then doesn't this sound a bit preposterous?

If IT did create stuff, IT must have diminished to a degree. How can IT be everything and then create another everything? Or even a little something to add to the already significant everything!!!!!!

Ha, ha, ha........

Ever sung the theme music from Match Of The Day...

Dumb, dumb, dee, dumb, dada, dee, dumb, dumb......

Griff....

I'm not going to respond substantively because previous posts are cogent rebuttals. Also, the science you are torturing is readily available in high-school level physics and chemistry (and perhaps biology) textbooks. You should be thoroughly ashamed of voicing such ignorance without first trying to educate yourself independently. Are you so egotistical that you believe that people who have studied the laws of energy and thermodynamics are here for your pleasure? That these people owe you their time, patience and counsel?

I myself have great trouble believing that, if there were a god, it would have designed you with a brain to waste. Your brain, regardless of its origin, is capable of so much better than this. If you are right, you will stand before your creator after you die and offer only a blank look when it asks you why, after giving you such a majestic universe to explore and a brain to explore it with, you could only type out inane messages to others who did.

Go away. Open a book. Try to understand what is around you. You'll be a much better person for it.

Clue: There are other things going on in the universe besides entropy! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless you are deaf, dumb and blind, you might notice the world displays innumerable phenomenon that generate local order, for chrissakes, without violating thermodynamics.

Learn more! In the mean time shut up.