Another Problem With Big Bang?

Really? Lets see which of these are magical?

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- singularities and then black holes, which according to the Big Bang believers are in almost every large cosmological object we see out there,

Predicted independantly of the Big Bang theory. Accepted to actually exist by basically everyone. The wealth of evidence is overwhelming.

Whether they were developed independently of Big Bang or not and whether practically everyone accepts them or not has nothing to do with whether or not they are magical. You claim a wealth of evidence but it is ALL inferred from observations that plasma cosmologists say they can explain with ordinary physics. Most people believe in God. God has about the same degree of evidence as black holes.

Also, nothing to do with the Big Bang.

Yeah, you folks keep repeating that nonsense. How curious that Big Bang cosmology requires that just about every large object in space have a black hole in it to explain observations that plasma cosmologists say ordinary physics we can reproduce here on earth can explain.

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- dark matter. Actually, a variety of different kinds of magic they call *matter*, but which have properties that lie completely outside ordinary experience and haven't been detected, only inferred,

Firstly, predicted outside of the Big Bang theory. Get your facts straight to start with. Secondly, what's your point?

Oh that's right, it has nothing to do with Big Bang cosmology even though the whole universe must now be filled with it for Big Bang cosmology to explain the observations. That you don't even see my point says much about the sad state of cosmology and astrophysics today.

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- dark energy. Can you even define what it is? Yet supposedly 76% of the universe's mass consists of it and again it is only inferred from the behavior of most distant of objects (many of which, if Arp is right, may not be all that distant afterall),

Again, how does this make it magic? Just because it doesn't make sense to you?

I asked you to define what it is. Can you?

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- inflation. Do you have any notion of what caused it ... an explanation that doesn't involve magic or some other unseen, unseeable entity?,

The answer "we don't know yet" is generally acceptable.

What? After nearly 30 years you don't know what it is yet? You just accept it. What *faith* you have.

I suggest you look up "magic" in the dictionary, because so far you've failed to present anything magical.

http://www.answers.com/topic/magic?cat=biz-fin "magic - The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural." That seems to fit nicely.

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- 11 dimensional (or is it 12?) space and strings. Even the string theorists admit that strings may never be seen,

So?

A claim by string theorists that strings may be too small to ever be seen means the claim that strings exist can not be falsified. Is that science?

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- magnetic properties that no lab on earth has ever seen and that violate established laws of physics. I covered this in one of my last few posts.

I fail to see what this has to do with the Big Bang, to be honest,

I know, that's a problem. You don't think anything is related to the big bang. Not the singularity. Not the numerous gnomes that have been introduced to explain what has happened since the big bang. Nothing. :D

but once again, our inability to understand does not make it wrong.

False. In this case, physicists (and I leave astrophysicists out of that group) do understand magnetic fields and plasmas. And what astrophysicists claim as magnetic phenomena to explain what they see are just fantasies. They have NEVER been observed or reproduced on earth in several hundred years of studying magnetic fields. Go ahead, show us ONE demonstration of reconnecting magnetic fields in a lab here on earth.

You are making a huge leap of inference

*I'm* making a huge leap of inference? ROTFLOL! Says the guy using inference to presume the existence of singularities, black holes, inflation, dark matter (in all it's flavors), dark energy and new magnetic field physics. Priceless!!!

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And I'm probably missing a few others. In fact, in this thread I've provided sources giving examples where when faced with yet another unexplained observation that didn't fit the current Big Bang kludge, the first tendency of the astrophysics and big bang cosmology community is to speculate about yet another unseen force with magical properties.

So? Are you suggesting that theories shouldn't be changed if they do not fit the observed data?

Not by introducing more magic when scientists haven't even resolved ANY of the mountain of magic they've already introduced to explain Big Bang.

Do you even understand how science is undertaken?

Do you?

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See the thread's article where a new force is invoked to salvage Dark Matter. Another of the sources proposed an object called a MECO, which ignores everything that plasma physicists have been trying to tell the big bang and astrophysics community for half a century.

Which you just assume is correct.

But I don't just assume it's correct. I can find numerous sources that validate what plasma cosmologist say about plasmas, electric currents and magnetic fields.

Until plasma cosmology can explain everything the Big Bang does, and is as successful as the Big Bang is, you don't really have a leg to stand on.

That's a rather tired canard since plasma cosmology can already explain more than Big Bang does. And without invoking spirits and without having spent billions and billions of research dollars.

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If after 30 years and many, many billions of dollars, we still haven't detected any of the primary dark matter entities that have been postulated, that should tell begin to tell us something. If we are rational. And if entities are so far away in space and time that for all intents and purposes they can't be directly seen or experimented on, then for all intent and purpose, they are indeed unfalsifiable. We might as well postulate God or gnomes are responsible.

What nonsense. There is more matter then we can observe in galaxies.

You only INFER there is more matter based on observations of motions that plasma cosmologists can explain without introducing a zoo full of magic particles, forces, interactions and events.

Some of the sources I've cited about plasma cosmology were peer reviewed in prestigious astronomical journals (of course, that was before the Big Bang priesthood started getting worried about the truth of what plasma cosmologists say).

:rolleyes:

Go ahead, roll your eyes. That doesn't change the fact that they were peer reviewed in prestigious astronomical journals. They passed peer review.

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Some of the books were written by Nobel Prize winners in the field they were writting about. Others are from peer reviewed plasma physics journals. And it would be wise to keep in mind that if the peer view process is corrupted by the use of deductive method (that's what religions and Big Bang theorists rely on), then relying only on articles in peer reviewed sources may lead you astray.

Oh noes! Y'know, you are sounding more and more like a CT nutter.

And you are sounding more and more like someone who has no rational response to the presented facts and logic. All you can do is dream up another magic particle or force to explain the next problem encountered in your theory and insist it's all true. :D

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That has been the warning of plasma cosmologists for 30 years (about the same time the mysterious Dark *Matter* has been missing). A warning that has gone unheaded. Read the quote from Alfven about reconnecting magnetic fields in one my of my last posts, and you'll get an idea of how far astray from real science the peer review process has taken Big Bang astrophysics.

There is no big conspiricy.

Well the Church in Galileo's time felt the same way ...
 
And what I said is that if you don't even know special relativity you can't possibly understand cosmology.

And, of course, what you didn't say but I'm sure you believe is if one understands relativity, one must automatically accept Big Bang?

I hate to tell you this, but Einstein rejected the notion of the singularity. In Physical Review, July 1, 1935, Einstein and Rosen stated "For these reasons writers have occasionally noted the possibility that material particles might be considered as singularities of the field. This point of view, however, we cannot accept at all. For a singularity brings so much arbitrariness into the theory that it actually nullifies its laws." And further that "Every field theory, in our opinion, must therefore adhere to the fundamental principle that singularities of the field are to be excluded." He called black holes, "Schwartzschild singularities", and wrote in a paper in the Annals of Mathematics in October 1939 that "The essential result of this investigation is a clear understanding as to why the 'Schwarzschild singularities' do not exist in physical reality."

He knew that his equations predicted a singularity at the instant of the Big Bang, but denied that a singularity actually occurred, claiming, "For large densities of field and of matter, the field equations and even the field variables which enter into them will have no real significance. One may not therefore assume the validity of the equations for very high density of field and of matter, and one may not conclude that the 'beginning of the expansion' [of the universe] must mean a singularity in the mathematical sense. All we have to realize is that the equations may not be continued over such regions.".
 
The fact that he references plasma cosmology papers which have been published in peer reviewed journals kind of refutes that point.

Not necessarily. THe papers are from decades ago before, perhaps, the Big Bang community realized the peril that plasma cosmology poses. Let's look at a more recent example:

From http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/...p?p=5648&sid=5a12cf1d691432b37d7fb85e70f768aa:

A little history may be in order. Late on July 3, 2005, the Thunderbolts Picture of the Day registered the predictions of Wal Thornhill and colleagues concerning Deep Impact, including: the high energy of impact catching NASA by surprise; an advanced flash; lack of surface water NASA scientists expected; sharply sculpted surface; loss of impactor signal due to electrical interference before impact; rearrangement of "jets" after impact. These predictions were, of course, in stark contrast to NASA expectations, and most could only appear ridiculous.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050704predictions.htm

Comet theory is in shambles. But NASA has shown no interest in the one model that would not only resolve the contradictions, but inspire unprecedented national interest in space exploration. And when you consider that the solution requires nothing more than acknowledging the obvious electric field of the Sun, how could anyone fail to see the scale of the tragedy?

Before the Galileo probe arrived at Jupiter, NASA claimed that the plumes the earlier Voyager probe had observed rising from Jupiter's moon Io were volcanoes. One individual, Wal Thornhill, disputed the claim and registered three predictions in advance:

1. the vents of the "volcanic" plumes will be much hotter than lava;

2. the plumes are the jets of cathode arcs, and they do not explode from a volcanic vent but move around and erode the periphery of dark areas (called "lava lakes" by planetary geologists);

3. the "lava lakes" themselves are merely the solid surface of Io etched electrically by cathode arcs and exposed from beneath the sulfur dioxide "snow" deposited by continuous discharge activity. Therefore, they will not reveal the expected heat of a recent lava flow.

Well, the probe arrived and its sensors were swamped by the plume temperatures, producing whiteouts on the image. So NASA scientist colored the whiteouts to make them red and yellow to mimic lave spouts. The whiteouts were all strategically located at the edges of the so-called "lava lakes," as predicted, and these dark floors of the supposed lava lakes were cold, as also predicted. And, as predicted, no volcanic vent could be found. Additionally, it was discovered that the plumes emitted ultraviolet light, a signature of electric discharge. And most astonishing, it was discovered that the plume of the "volcano" Prometheus had moved 80 kilomters since imaging by Voyager--the very thing one would expect of an electric arc, and the last thing expected of a volcano! ("Volcanos always go south for the winter, mused one plasma scientist in our group.")

Of course, Wal was working with a theme first noted by astrophysicist Thomas Gold, later to be substantiated by Anthony Peratt and Alex Dessler--that the plumes were electric discharge. While I do not mention names of scientists I'm in contact with, now that Gold has passed on I can tell you I had some extremely interesting conversations with him in 2001, just ahead of an international conference we sponsored in Laughlin, Nevada. He told me that, after his article suggesting the Io plumes were electric discharge, Science magazine had published a critique of his argument by Shoemaker and others. The critics argued that the temperatures (as measured from Hawaii, where there would be no possibility of suffient resolution) did not detect the heat required of electric discharge! Gold had written a rejoinder to point out the obvious, but Science refused to publish it.

I found it very interesting that, once the Galileo probe arrived at Jupiter and detected literally everything expected of electric discharge, no one at NASA felt any obligation to reconsider the possibility first noted by the esteemed astrophysicist many years earlier. Even today, there is no mention of electric discharge. This is one of hundreds of reasons that I find deliberate efforts to obstruct the flow of significant information so offensive."

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/bol.htm "In 2002 two young Spanish astronomers discovered that the luminous filament between the two galaxies contains two quasar-like objects with even higher redshifts. The Astrophysical Journal and Nature refused to publish this observation, and it was finally published in Astronomy and Astrophysics, a peer-reviewed but less ‘prestigious’ journal. Furthermore, requests to make follow-up observations with the Chandra x-ray satellite and the southern Very Large Telescope were turned down by the allocation committees."

So what has happened is that those who advocate plasma cosmology and plasma related explanations of observed phenomena are no longer even trying astrophysical publications but instead are publishing their work in journals related to plasma and electromagnetic phenomena.
 
Originally Posted by BeAChooser
Second, read the *peer reviewed* paper I linked and quoted regarding observations investigating whether the light from the object has the appearance of having come through the dust that would surely have been encountered in the core region of that type of galaxy. They concluded it had not. Now would you like to post a *peer reviewed* paper to challenge that data based conclusion?

I am no an astronomer, so I will not make a guess.

I'm not asking you to make a guess. I'm asking you to provide a peer reviewed paper challenging the data and conclusions set forth in a peer reviewed paper before simply dismissing what is concluded, as you have done.
 
Considering that a sustained fusion reaction requires extremely high temperatures and pressures, recreating those on the surface of the Earth is something of a problem.

In the interior of stars, not so much.

It's not a problem of not reaching sufficiently high temperature and pressure. Both sun-like temperatures and pressures have been achieved here on earth in fusion experiments. The problem is one of keeping the plasma stable long enough for fusions to occur in sufficient numbers. In 50 years they've not been able to overcome this problem despite uncounted billions spent in research. Some plasma cosmologists and plasma physicists now say the problem is inherent to plasma and thus even the pressure and PRESUMED temperature of the core will not help. We have tried all manner of techniques to make the plasma's stable. Yet, we just ASSUME they are in the interior of the sun. Why?

Meanwhile, we just disregard the fact that in order to even begin to see the solar phenomena that we can see, the standard model proponents have to invent new magnetic physics that have never been seen or reproduced on earth and that experts in plasmas and magnetic fields say are fantasy.
 
BeAChooser, you are absolutely right: I am ignoring just about everything you say! Why? Because I'm not interested in debating you!

There you go folks. This is the response that plasma cosmologists have gotten for nearly 30 years from the Big Bang community.

The correctness of theories is not settled through rhetoric, but through evidence.

I've provided plenty of evidence. You just don't want to discuss it, so you ignore it. Because you know where discussing it would lead.
 
You are only quoting from places like space.com and similar, never from actual papers, so you are getting only strawmen and poorly worded results.

Astrophysicists are not claiming the jets of matter and radiation seen coming from regions they claim contain black holes are coming from the black hole itself. The classic theory of black holes is that nothing escapes the event horizon. What they are claiming is that falling matter is heating up to high temperatures and emitting radiation and charged matter that create magnetic fields.
That's what I said.

As the above link notes "Black hole jets are one of the great paradoxes in astronomy," said Rita Sambruna of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. "How is it that black holes, so efficient at pulling matter in, can also accelerate matter away at near light speed? We still don't know how these jets form, but at least we now have a solid idea about what they're made of."
Another thing is that sensible researches recognise they don't understand everything perfectly, while you seem to imply plasma cosmology is a complete, finished theory, that already explains everything. Wrong. If you quote from this kind of website you are always going to get overhyped claims, making the result that has been obtained seem more of a breakthrough than what it actually is. Also, when they say that we still don't know how these jets form it is because they are held to a very high standard. Until the theory is completely refined and has been verified observationally they are not sure and say so.

"It's a bit of a challenge to understand how this black hole got enough mass to reach its size."

How does plasma cosmology explain this precise object? You are always claiming it explains everything, but have provided no hard data. We don't exactly know how these supermassive black holes form, but we know they are there.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/v4641_microquasar_000114.html "The dramatic tantrum last fall from an often-overlooked star has betrayed the existence of the nearest black hole yet discovered in the Milky Way -- one that should be put in a class all its own
[...]
But plasma cosmologists don't have problems with observations like these. They fit right into the model that they developed decades ago.
Then provide some link where they explain this object. If mainstream researcehs can't explain all of its features and plasma cosmology can, you could easily get a paper published just describing this particular object.

Where have these astronomers been? Plasma physicists demonstrated in the laboratory with plasma focus devices and computer models decades ago that black holes weren't necessary to create these jets. See what I mean about the Big Bang astrophysics community being blind to anything that doesn't involve gravity, folks?
This is ridiculous. Everyone knows from a long time ago that neutron stars and similar objects create jets (have you heard the term pulsar?) Nobody doubted this. This is again a case of reading an overhyped news source. Probably the research described perfected some computations and gave better quantitative predictions, but the idea wasn't new for anyone.

Saying that neutron stars can generate jets is not the same as saying all jets can be generated by neutron stars, though.

[snip descrption of magnetic fields with no formulas and in layman's terms]

Alfven would be spinning and twisting in his grave at this description of plasma, magnetic fields and their behavior.

You haven't shown were they modify any laws of electromagnetism. Do it or withdraw your claim.

"Plasma takes weak strands of magnetic field along for the ride"? "Plasma tends to stick to field lines, effectively forming strings of plasma." That is utter nonsense.
On the contrary it is a theorem in ideal magnetohydrodynamics that all fluid elements initially located on a magnetic field line will still be located on that line after an arbitray motion. This is a simple result of plasma physics and doesn't require general relativity, curved spaces or any change to Maxwell's equations.

If you didn't know this most simple of results, then you clearly don't know anything about plasma physics, because this is in every textbook.

I'm tired of all these examples, because they are pointless. They just show that there is still work to be done, not that there is anything wrong with what we have. With the last claim that particles sticking to field lines is 'utter nonsense' you have lost what little credibility you had. If you want to be taken seriously again, please provide evidence for any of your claims
  • Plasma cosmology can explain all the details of objects that are still not fully modeled in general relativity.
  • Plasma cosmologists are being repressed and barred from publishing (this is trivially false, as Wollery pointed out, because you have cited papers in journals).
  • Mainstream physicists violate Maxwell's equations (you need a link to a paper that does that, it is not enough with a series of analogies for laymen).

So once again, we have another magical gnome to add to all the others. :)

The moment of the singularity cannot be described with current physics. This was my starting point, so stop suggesting you have made us fall in some clever trap.

The moment of the singularity is not part of the Big Bang. But I thought Cuddles claimed that anything after that moment wasn't part of the theory. Perhaps you two should consult one another. :)
This doesn't make sense. Cuddles said the same as I did, that the fact that the universe is expanding is based on observations and implies that the universe was smaller in the past.

If the electric model for stars is correct (and it seems to be the only one that actually explains the observations), stars will be charged bodies.
Well, they are not, so the premise for all that follows is already wrong. If stars were charged bodies, we would know.

But according to what I've read, physicists do not expect that black holes with a significant electric charge will be formed in nature because the electromagnetic repulsion would be about 40 orders of magnitude greater than the gravitational attraction. That makes sense.
Black holes can have charge. Charged black holes are called Reisser-Nördstrom black holes. The typical condition is that GM^2 > Q^2, with Q the electric charge. We would identify stars with such charge
 
The mathematics behind general relativity do clearly define what a "straight line" means. For example, on the surface of the earth, a straight line between two points is a geodesic (it follows the curve of the earth). Thus a triangle - which is made by connecting three straight line segments - can have interior angles that sum to greater 180 degrees. Each line segment is perfectly straight, on the curved surface of the sphere. Change the geometry and you get different straight lines.

Pay careful attention to my first sentence. This is what mathematics says, i.e., this is just good ol'-fashioned geometry of curved spaces. Relativity could be completely bunk (which it is not, by the way), and this would still be true.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
Seems to me that Relativity has rewritten the rules to suit it’s own purposes. Relativity makes the rules, makes predictions based on it’s own rules, then observers and analyses according to it’s own rules. Why am I not surprised that it’s conclusions confirm it’s own predictions? Very easy to be right when you’re your own judge and jury. Sorry to have to say this, but this seems very similar to what theists and general woo believers do.

As I’ve said earlier, just because mathematics says something is possible in abstract theory, it doesn’t mean it’s actually possible in reality. Guess I will never accept anything that is based predominately on mathematics, unless it is backed up by a healthy dose of common sense.

I used to regularly debate with theists, but for the most part have given it up as being a waste of time for both of us. Perhaps it is the same with Relativity. I would be a zillion times more likely to accept Relativity than a God, but unfortunately Relativity is founded on too many things that I cannot accept. It seems you have to accept these things before you can use them to confirm them. I guess I can keep my head in the sand, and you can keep yours in the clouds. :D

I might not agree with it but I find all this stuff fascinating and have followed this thread with interest. You may be able to criticize BeAChooser for his quality, but you can't fault his quantity.

Cheers and thanks
 
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http://www.bigbangneverhappened.org/p25.htm

"Dr. Wright is Wrong-- a reply to Ned Wright's "Errors in The Big Bang Never Happened"

I'll take a look at this later. Please quote only some passages and provide links for the rest. Nobody wants to read kilometric posts.

Yllanes said:
And what I said is that if you don't even know special relativity you can't possibly understand cosmology.
And, of course, what you didn't say but I'm sure you believe is if one understands relativity, one must automatically accept Big Bang?

I said that to reject standard cosmology you must first understand it. To do this you need to understand at least the basics of relativity, which you don't apparently. If we add that you don't know about plasmas, which we get from your latest posts, then you don't understand plasma cosmology either.

I hate to tell you this, but Einstein rejected the notion of the singularity.
So what? He was uncomfortable with singularities and he was uncomfortable with quantum mechanics.

He knew that his equations predicted a singularity at the instant of the Big Bang, but denied that a singularity actually occurred, claiming, "For large densities of field and of matter, the field equations and even the field variables which enter into them will have no real significance. One may not therefore assume the validity of the equations for very high density of field and of matter, and one may not conclude that the 'beginning of the expansion' [of the universe] must mean a singularity in the mathematical sense. All we have to realize is that the equations may not be continued over such regions.".

This agrees with what I said. Our equations fail at the singularity (this is why it's called a singularity), so maybe better equations would remove it. But this doesn't mean our equations are wrong outside.

The problem is one of keeping the plasma stable long enough for fusions to occur in sufficient numbers. In 50 years they've not been able to overcome this problem despite uncounted billions spent in research. Some plasma cosmologists and plasma physicists now say the problem is inherent to plasma and thus even the pressure and PRESUMED temperature of the core will not help. We have tried all manner of techniques to make the plasma's stable. Yet, we just ASSUME they are in the interior of the sun. Why?

Compare the size of the sun and the conditions inside with a tokamak or stellerator of 1 m radius. The confinement in the tokamak is magnetic, the confinement in the Sun is gravitational.

Meanwhile, we just disregard the fact that in order to even begin to see the solar phenomena that we can see, the standard model proponents have to invent new magnetic physics that have never been seen or reproduced on earth and that experts in plasmas and magnetic fields say are fantasy.

Again the same unsubstantiated claim. I'm getting tired of it.
 
Seems to me that Relativity has rewritten the rules to suit it’s own purposes. Relativity makes the rules, makes predictions based on it’s own rules, then observers and analyses according to it’s own rules. Why am I not surprised that it’s conclusions confirm it’s own predictions? Very easy to be right when you’re your own judge and jury. Sorry to have to say this, but this seems very similar to what theists and general woo believers do.

As I’ve said earlier, just because mathematics says something is possible in abstract theory, it doesn’t mean it’s actually possible in reality. Guess I will never accept anything that is based predominately on mathematics, unless it is backed up by a healthy dose of common sense.

How do you explain the expansion of the Universe, the bending of light by gravity, the slowing of clocks on orbital satellite and the orbit of Mercury with common sense?
More to the point, how do you explain the above with ordinary Newtonian mechanics?
 
I'm not asking you to make a guess. I'm asking you to provide a peer reviewed paper challenging the data and conclusions set forth in a peer reviewed paper before simply dismissing what is concluded, as you have done.

I've done nothing of the sort. I've specifically stated you should not jump to conclusions, which is exactly what you have done, by claiming "the big bang theory is dead".

Personally, I will wait to see what others have to say about it.
 
Whether they were developed independently of Big Bang or not and whether practically everyone accepts them or not has nothing to do with whether or not they are magical. You claim a wealth of evidence but it is ALL inferred from observations that plasma cosmologists say they can explain with ordinary physics. Most people believe in God. God has about the same degree of evidence as black holes.

What utter rubbish.

Yeah, you folks keep repeating that nonsense. How curious that Big Bang cosmology requires that just about every large object in space have a black hole in it to explain observations that plasma cosmologists say ordinary physics we can reproduce here on earth can explain.

Really? It can explain everything? If that were so, why can't you provide 4 simple numbers?

Oh that's right, it has nothing to do with Big Bang cosmology even though the whole universe must now be filled with it for Big Bang cosmology to explain the observations. That you don't even see my point says much about the sad state of cosmology and astrophysics today.

You are full of utter bollocks. Inferring things doesn't make it magical. As a geneticist, this is like saying that by inferring the function of a gene by looking at what happens when the gene doesn't function is akin to ascribing a magical explanation. Go get an education.

I asked you to define what it is. Can you?

Since I'm not an astrophysicist, I wouldn't even bother to try.

What? After nearly 30 years you don't know what it is yet? You just accept it. What *faith* you have.

Oh yes, I forgot that something has to be fully explained to be accurate! What law of gravity are we using, now? I must have missed where we explained what gravity was. :rolleyes:

http://www.answers.com/topic/magic?cat=biz-fin "magic - The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural." That seems to fit nicely.

Nice rhetoric. Luckily, it's a load of rubbish. Just because we cannot detect it does not make it magic. Stop the rhetoric bollocks, provide the 4 numbers asked of you, or go away.

A claim by string theorists that strings may be too small to ever be seen means the claim that strings exist can not be falsified. Is that science?

Since string theory is not the big bang theory, I fail to see what this has to do with anything.

I know, that's a problem. You don't think anything is related to the big bang. Not the singularity. Not the numerous gnomes that have been introduced to explain what has happened since the big bang. Nothing. :D

Nice rhetoric. Have any actual data? 4 simple numbers.

False. In this case, physicists (and I leave astrophysicists out of that group) do understand magnetic fields and plasmas. And what astrophysicists claim as magnetic phenomena to explain what they see are just fantasies. They have NEVER been observed or reproduced on earth in several hundred years of studying magnetic fields. Go ahead, show us ONE demonstration of reconnecting magnetic fields in a lab here on earth.

You need to brush up on your logic.

*I'm* making a huge leap of inference? ROTFLOL! Says the guy using inference to presume the existence of singularities, black holes, inflation, dark matter (in all it's flavors), dark energy and new magnetic field physics. Priceless!!!

Boy, you really enjoy proving my point (and using useless rhetoric). These things are inferred from observational data and current theories. If new theories arise which explain all the observational data (remember that stuff? Data? Like numbers?), it will replace the big bang theory. So far, none has, so the inferences stand.

By what basis do you presume that everything in the universe can be nicely detected by our current level of technology?

Not by introducing more magic when scientists haven't even resolved ANY of the mountain of magic they've already introduced to explain Big Bang.

Once again, being unable to detect it does not make it magic. How's that quest for an explanation of gravity going?


Given that I "perform science" every day, and I am qualified to do so, I think it's pretty safe to say I do.

But I don't just assume it's correct. I can find numerous sources that validate what plasma cosmologist say about plasmas, electric currents and magnetic fields.

And yet you cannot provide 4 simple numbers?

That's a rather tired canard since plasma cosmology can already explain more than Big Bang does. And without invoking spirits and without having spent billions and billions of research dollars.

Oh really? Where are the peer reviewed articles which make predicitions which can be varified?

Oh, that's right, I forgot. It's all a big conspiricy to keep those papers out of journals. :rolleyes:

You only INFER there is more matter based on observations of motions that plasma cosmologists can explain without introducing a zoo full of magic particles, forces, interactions and events.

Really? Present those predictions. The predictions which can be experimentally verified. An explanation is not enough, prediction is the key.

Go ahead, roll your eyes. That doesn't change the fact that they were peer reviewed in prestigious astronomical journals. They passed peer review.

I was rolling my eyes at your conspiricy theory ramblings, actually.

And you are sounding more and more like someone who has no rational response to the presented facts and logic. All you can do is dream up another magic particle or force to explain the next problem encountered in your theory and insist it's all true. :D

I did nothing of the sort. Not to mention that "you" are assuming these particles can't exist. Any luck finding those gravity explanations yet?

Well the Church in Galileo's time felt the same way ...

:rolleyes:
 
Dark Matter doesn't exist. Its a bullpies theory designed to explain the 90-99% discrepancy between reality and prediction.

When the predictions don't match the measurements by a factor of 10-100, what is it you do?

[ ]You dismiss the theory
[X]You keep using the theory, but correct for the factor 10-100 discrepancy
[ ]You dismiss the measurements


I like plasma cosmology, btw.
 
Dark Matter doesn't exist.

Because you say so?

Its a bullpies theory designed to explain the 90-99% discrepancy between reality and prediction.

When the predictions don't match the measurements by a factor of 10-100, what is it you do?

[ ]You dismiss the theory
[X]You keep using the theory, but correct for the factor 10-100 discrepancy
[ ]You dismiss the measurements


I like plasma cosmology, btw.

And it has been experimentally verified. Also, Dark Matter comes from very very robust theories.
 
Again, like in the other cases discussed, pi mesons were predicted based on the absence of something they could study here on earth. And again it took only about a decade to confirm their existence despite a World War on and a case of mistaken identity along the way.

http://www.ifi.unicamp.br/~ghtc/meson-e.htm "It was in 1947 that the existence of the pi meson was established. ... snip ... In 1935, the Japanese theoretical physicist Hideki Yukawa proposed an explanation of nuclear forces. He suggested the existence of a new particle, with a mass about 200 times larger than that of the electron. ... snip ... This particle received the name "meson" (from the Greek "mesos" = intermediate) because its mass was intermediate between those of the electron and of the proton. ... snip ... In 1937-38, Carl D. Anderson and Seth H. Neddermeyer found in the cosmic radiation, that continually reaches the ground, signs of something that looked like Yukawa's meson: it has the expected mass and disintegrated as Yukawa's particle was expected to disintegrate. For ten years, it seemed that everything fit in the scheme, and that there was a nice theory on the constitution of matter. In 1947, however, this peace was shaken. It became clear that the meson of Anderson and Neddermeyer did not behave as predicted by Yukawa's theory. ... snip ... That is where Lattes' group comes in. In 1946, a research group in Bristol, England, ... snip ... analyzed some emulsions of a new kind ... snip ... after a few days of detailed study, they found two special tracks of mesons that gradually reduced their speed in the emulsion, and finally stopped. At the end of those tracks, they observed that a new meson appeared. ... snip ... One of the mesons was about 30% or 40% heavier than the other one. The heavier meson was able to disintegrate and to produce the lighter meson. The second particle was the one that was already known from the studies of Anderson and Neddermeyer. To distinguish it from the other one, it was called "mu meson" (nowadays, it is called "muon"). The primary meson, on the other side, was something new, unknown. It was called "pi meson", and its identification was announced in October 1947. Later tests showed that it strongly interacted with nuclei and that its characteristic properties were those required by Yukawa's theory. The particles that hold the nucleus together had been found."
Well, I shall have to dig out Helge Kragh's book and read the stuff again. You are quoting a post facto sources. According to Kragh, there was not a consensus about the missing energy and many in the community considered Yukawa's math to be just plain wrong.

many authors like the 'march of science' perspective and forget the fact that it was very contentitious at the time.
Perhaps, but they sure use the Big Bang to justify the Big Toys.
So what?

Supersymetry was not developed to support the BBE theory despite your consipracy theory claims.
I think it's fear of the weapons developed with those big toys that lead to big defense budgets. :)

No , that is foolish. lets us see, halliburton makes billions and billions of dollars by doing things that used to be done by soldiers. That is not fear of the big weapons.

The Manhattan projecy ate up appoxiamately 5% of the whole spending of WWII. And was seperate from the developement of 'cloud chambers' and colliders.

A lot of the US miltary spending is consumed in profits for the manufacturers. But please ignore the truth and facts.

Most cosmologists haven't got a research budget. So you are really appearing quite histrionic at times, not your intent, I am sure.
 
No, I'm drawing this conclusion based on data and logic.
And your assertions that it is the truth makes you appear to be a faith based believer rather than a sceptic. You hold your ideas to a seprate standard of evidence and proof.
Good, I'm glad we agree on that. Do you think Arp and Plasma Cosmologists will be invited to the round table? If so, maybe this will be the crack in the door they need. If not, that will say something too.
You are so silly, you think they don't know who Arp is? You think they don't sit with him at the conferences, you really think they don't read his papers?

What a goof!
And simply rejected by the Big Bang community with handwaving and excuses. Now they will have no excuses. It will be interesting to see what happens.
that is where you are just spinning your fable of the Oppressed Scientist and the Voice in the Wilderness. taken in by a fable.
Oh boy. The Big Bang community gets to adjust their interpretation of the data and model AGAIN. Any bets on how old the new universe will be, how old the new oldest stars will be, how much the quantities of Dark Matter and Dark Energy will be adjusted, and how many new magic particles, forces, interactions will be needed? :D

That is the way of science you sill man, you should really read more on the history of the way science actualy develops. It is not the march of progress, it is the brownian motion and a constrained system of evidence.

Your theory is rather quaint and monotheistic.

That is the way science is, even Feynman was questioned and doubted in his time.
 
First, they don't mention plasma ... seems everything is neutral "gas" to these folks. ;)

Second, they say "Enhanced stretches of the HST image show a debatable 'luminous bridge' between NGC 4319 and Mrk205"

I'll certainly agree it's debatable but perhaps it would help if they processed the image in a different way. Here's what others were able to get out of the Hubble images with better processing:

http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/galaxies/hhn4319a.jpg

http://www.haltonarp.com/articles/rebuttals/illustrations/mk205a-neg.jpg

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/controversies/Arp_controversy.htm (see the CCD image by David Strange)
So they are discussing it and investigating it, which was my point. Your arm waving about the lack of attention your beloved object of affection recieves is refuted.
Some of those shows a more defined bridge. And make me doubt the claim of the author that there are similar "gas" features around the galaxy and quasar. But it is debatable.
Your doubt is not proof, you have demonstrated a very strong and persistent bias toward a lack of critical thought towards your own beliefs.
Third, there seems to be some confusion in that source. First it states that "In time, many quasars were found to lie in galaxies with exactly the same redshift, providing powerful evidence that quasars are an event that occurs in the nucleus of galaxies." Then it states "Today the redshift controversy has almost faded from view. Only a few astronomers still think there is reasonable evidence for noncosmological redshifts". Those seem to be contradictory statements.
Ah, that is the sign you don't understand science and are seraching for what looks like a more faith based approach. Did you know that Bohr and others, including Gell-Mann ( a true meglomaniac) often held that a thing might or might not be true?

Do you really know what science is about?
Yes, that's an interesting case. That's why I mentioned it earlier.



I'm not saying it's been totally squelched, just that there's a certain ... shall we say ... .disinterest on the part of the mainstream astronomical community. For one thing, they choose to treat each case as individual rather than look at the likelihood that all are just optical illusions.
Again, that is not what even a cursory look will show, it is an area of interest and it is being studied, even by people whose web sites you don't read.
And what does it say? That "A few hundred million years ago the galaxy NGC 7320C (just outside the left-hand edge of the Hubble image) passed through the group from behind (as seen from Earth). It collided with the galaxies in the group, ripping out gas and stars to form a long tidal tail as it flew by. ... snip ... Their observations revealed that all but one of the galaxies are receding from Earth at about the same velocity (~6000 km/s). The discordant galaxy (NGC 7320 seen in the bottom of the Hubble image) is receding much less rapidly (~800 km/s). Some astronomers saw this as evidence that redshift is unrelated to distance, opposing the idea that the Universe is expanding. However, today there is general agreement that NGC 7320 is merely a foreground galaxy, 35 million light years away, projected onto the more distant (270 million light years) compact group by chance. ... A few hundred million years ago the galaxy NGC 7320C (just outside the left-hand edge of the Hubble image) passed through the group from behind (as seen from Earth). It collided with the galaxies in the group, ripping out gas and stars to form a long tidal tail as it flew by."

Now let's see, what did they leave out of the above description? That there is ALSO a tail coming out of NGC 7320 (the one that's supposedly 8 times closer than the others)
And you OBVIOUSLY didn't read why the author chose to make that choice.

More clinging to what looks like a faith based appraoch and fanaticism on your part.

that sweeps around in an arc directly towards NGC 7320C. The one out of NGC 7319 is only in the general direction of NGC 7320. You can see an image of this here: http://www.electric-cosmos.org/arp.htm . If an encounter with NGC 7320C is what caused the tail of NGC 7319 to point in its general direction, what caused the tail that's clearly coming off NGC 7320 which is supposedly many times closer? They and other sources dismiss this as a chance alignment (and maybe it is) ... but it must be a *really* chance alignment since now we have NGC 7320 sitting exactly on a tail that sweeps directly into NGC 7320C. But like always, they threat the alignment in isolation from all the other "chance alignments" Arp noted. Looked at probabilistically, that's not a reasonable thing to do. Sure, some of them may be chance alignments. But all of them?
You are starting to get fanatic again, even a cursory search of 'seyfert quasar' will show that there is lot of discussion going on, even in the mundane spotlight of APOD.

wave those arms faster, it is supposed to be hot here again.
And again we have an article that talks about "gas" and never mentions plasma. :)
Fanatic.
You might find this source of interest (another chance alignment?):

http://www.aanda.org/index.php?option=article&access=doi&doi=10.1051/0004-6361:20034260
"The field surrounding NGC*7603: Cosmological or non-cosmological redshifts? ... snip ... Abstract
We present new observations of the field surrounding the Seyfert galaxy NGC*7603, where four galaxies with different redshifts*-*NGC*7603 ( z=0.029), NGC*7603B ( z=0.057) and two fainter emission line galaxies ( z=0.245 and z=0.394)*-*are apparently connected by a narrow filament, leading to a possible case of anomalous redshift. The observations comprise broad and narrow band imaging and intermediate resolution spectroscopy of some of the objects in the field. The new data confirm the redshift of the two emission-line objects found within the filament connecting NGC*7603 and NGC*7603B, and settles their type with better accuracy. Although both objects are point-like in ground based images, using HST archive images we show that the objects have structure with a FWHM = 0.3-0.4*arcsec. The photometry in the R-band obtained during three different campaigns spread over two years does not show any signs of variability in these objects above 0.3-0.4*mag. All the above information and the relative strength and width of the main spectral lines allow us to classify these as*HII galaxies with very vigorous star formation, while the rest of the filament and NGC*7603B lack star formation. We delineate the halo of NGC*7603 out to 26.2*mag/arcsec 2 in the Sloan r*band filter and find evidence for strong internal distortions. New narrow emission line galaxies at z=0.246, 0.117 and*0.401 are also found at respectively*0.8, 1.5 and 1.7*arcmin to the West of the filament within the fainter contour of this halo. We have studied the spatial distribution of objects in the field within*1.5*arcmin of NGC*7603. We conclude that the density of*QSOs is roughly within the expected value of the limiting magnitude of our observations. However, the configuration of the four galaxies apparently connected by the filament appears highly unusual. The probability of three background galaxies of any type with apparent B-magnitudes up to*16.6, 21.1 and*22.1 (the observed magnitudes, extinction correction included) being randomly projected on the filament of the fourth galaxy (NGC*7603) is . Furthermore, the possible detection of very vigorous star formation observed in the HII*galaxies of the filament would have a low probability if they were background normal-giant galaxies; instead, the intensity of the lines is typical of dwarf HII*galaxies. Hence, a set of coincidences with a very low probability would be necessary to explain this as a fortuitous projection of background sources. Several explanations in terms of cosmological or non-cosmological redshifts are discussed."

Looks a lot like the article I linked to earlier.

Your meglomania and lack of interrest in any debate is rather dull.

Doubt is the basis of scepticism, doubt yourself first.
 
There you go folks. This is the response that plasma cosmologists have gotten for nearly 30 years from the Big Bang community.



I've provided plenty of evidence. You just don't want to discuss it, so you ignore it. Because you know where discussing it would lead.

Warning the following is meant as humor solely. If you do not have a sense of humor than please do not attempt this at home.

There you go folks. This is the response that scientific creationists have gotten for nearly 30 years from the Darwinist community.



I've provided plenty of evidence. You just don't want to discuss it, so you ignore it. Because you know where discussing it would lead.

I knew i had seen this before.

;)
 
Warning the following is meant as humor solely. If you do not have a sense of humor than please do not attempt this at home.
So now you write jest in Big Bang threads, and initiating yourself into my Zen philosophical school without bowing. I see how it is.
 
Dark Matter doesn't exist. Its a bullpies theory designed to explain the 90-99% discrepancy between reality and prediction.

When the predictions don't match the measurements by a factor of 10-100, what is it you do?

[ ]You dismiss the theory
[X]You keep using the theory, but correct for the factor 10-100 discrepancy
[ ]You dismiss the measurements


I like plasma cosmology, btw.

Actually, when (confirmed) predictions do not match with observations, you have two options: fix the theory OR add more stuff to the universe (or both!). I will demonstrate with two examples. In both cases the theory under scrutiny is Newton's gravity...

Case 1) Orbit of Uranus. Predictions with Newtonian calculations were not getting the orbit correct. Solution: add a previously-unseen planet, Neptune. Predictions were made for where this new planet should be, observations were made...and there it was!

Case 2) Orbit of Mercury. Again, predictions were not matching observations. A new proposed planet, Vulcan, was not observed, and did not give correct predictions anyway. The answer: fix how gravity works! Enter GR, which correctly described the orbit of Mercury.

In the case of dark matter, it's not so much a discrepency between theory and observation, but between observation and observations. There are multiple ways to "weigh" the universe: counting up galaxies, gravitational lensing, galaxy motions, etc etc. The discrepency is between the "counting up galaxies" approach and ALL the other approaches. I am simplifying this a bit much, of course. The easiest way to resolve this discrepency to assume that the stuff we can see (galaxies, clouds of gas, you and me...) does not make up all the mass in the universe. Hence, some of the matter must be "dark" (either dim or does not interact with light).

Cheers,
TV's Frank
 
Seems to me that Relativity has rewritten the rules to suit it’s own purposes. Relativity makes the rules, makes predictions based on it’s own rules, then observers and analyses according to it’s own rules. Why am I not surprised that it’s conclusions confirm it’s own predictions? Very easy to be right when you’re your own judge and jury. Sorry to have to say this, but this seems very similar to what theists and general woo believers do.

As I’ve said earlier, just because mathematics says something is possible in abstract theory, it doesn’t mean it’s actually possible in reality. Guess I will never accept anything that is based predominately on mathematics, unless it is backed up by a healthy dose of common sense.

I used to regularly debate with theists, but for the most part have given it up as being a waste of time for both of us. Perhaps it is the same with Relativity. I would be a zillion times more likely to accept Relativity than a God, but unfortunately Relativity is founded on too many things that I cannot accept. It seems you have to accept these things before you can use them to confirm them. I guess I can keep my head in the sand, and you can keep yours in the clouds. :D

I might not agree with it but I find all this stuff fascinating and have followed this thread with interest. You may be able to criticize BeAChooser for his quality, but you can't fault his quantity.

Cheers and thanks

Apparantly, you did not read my first sentence carefully enough. I was NOT discussing predictions of GR, I was discussing the geometry of curved spaces, developed well before Einstein came along. Unless you are disagreeing that the surface of the earth is curved, then what I have said is absolutely true (i.e., proved in the mathematical sense). You seem happy with plane Euclidean geometry, why not curved-space geometry? The surface of the earth is manifestly not a flat plane, so we should not expect the Euclidean rules of geometry to apply.

Returning to relativity, I entirely agree with you that not every mathematical construct exists in nature, or that every mathemetical development is useful in physics. But holding on to "common sense" in the face of contradicting observations is nonsense. Special relativity is the most heavily tested theory in the history of mankind!! Yes, relativity "makes its own rules and makes predictions based on those rules". That is called "a theory of physics", and is no different in principle from Newtonian mechanics. The tests of relativity, however, do not assume those rules. I do not understand what you mean here. There are many sources available on the history of testing relativity. Could you provide some examples where experimenters "assumed the rules" of relativity?

Do you use a GPS? A GPS cannot be so accurate without taking into account general and special relativity. If these theories are just tested based on "their own rules", and are just fanciful mathematics, then how come your GPS works? How is it so accurate? This is a clear example of SR and GR making predictions in the real world! If the GPS calculations did not include GR, or if GR were wrong, I think it would be obviously very quickly!

And once again, I will remind you of Galileo's experiments. Aristotle's prediction for the behavior of falling masses was based on common sense: heavier objects fall faster. Yet this is not the case in nature. Newtonian mechanics, based heavily on mathematics and NOT common sense, gives the correct prediction.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
 
Apparantly, you did not read my first sentence carefully enough. I was NOT discussing predictions of GR, I was discussing the geometry of curved spaces, developed well before Einstein came along. Unless you are disagreeing that the surface of the earth is curved, then what I have said is absolutely true (i.e., proved in the mathematical sense). You seem happy with plane Euclidean geometry, why not curved-space geometry? The surface of the earth is manifestly not a flat plane, so we should not expect the Euclidean rules of geometry to apply.

Returning to relativity, I entirely agree with you that not every mathematical construct exists in nature, or that every mathemetical development is useful in physics. But holding on to "common sense" in the face of contradicting observations is nonsense. Special relativity is the most heavily tested theory in the history of mankind!! Yes, relativity "makes its own rules and makes predictions based on those rules". That is called "a theory of physics", and is no different in principle from Newtonian mechanics. The tests of relativity, however, do not assume those rules. I do not understand what you mean here. There are many sources available on the history of testing relativity. Could you provide some examples where experimenters "assumed the rules" of relativity?

Do you use a GPS? A GPS cannot be so accurate without taking into account general and special relativity. If these theories are just tested based on "their own rules", and are just fanciful mathematics, then how come your GPS works? How is it so accurate? This is a clear example of SR and GR making predictions in the real world! If the GPS calculations did not include GR, or if GR were wrong, I think it would be obviously very quickly!

And once again, I will remind you of Galileo's experiments. Aristotle's prediction for the behavior of falling masses was based on common sense: heavier objects fall faster. Yet this is not the case in nature. Newtonian mechanics, based heavily on mathematics and NOT common sense, gives the correct prediction.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
I’m not trying to disprove anything here. I’m trying to understand why a lot of educated, clever and intelligent people are happy to accept certain things that I have trouble accepting. Of course the simple answer could be that I’m not sufficiently educated, clever or intelligent. I don’t particularly care who came up with the things or what they are called. I don’t automatically adopt other peoples acceptance of things (regardless of how educated, clever, intelligent and numerous they are) if that acceptance requires me to abandon what I perceive to be reality, actuality, factual, truth, honesty, common sense or whatever label you want to give it. If any theory or mathematical system requires that I accept that a triangle can be drawn on the surface of a sphere, then I have a problem in accepting that theory or system. My reasoning why I can’t accept that a triangle can be drown on the surface a sphere is shown below. Apparently my reasoning is wrong. I would appreciate an explanation of how and where it's wrong.
  1. A triangle consists of three straight lines.
  2. A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
  3. The shortest distance between diametrically opposed points on a sphere is the line of the diameter.
  4. A line on the surface of a sphere is a curved line.
  5. A triangle cannot therefore be drawn on the surface of a sphere.
 
I think one of the issues with the whole triangle bit is that you are using a slightly different definition of triangle than the one most mathematicians use. Here is a web page showing how to identify triangles.

I am not suggesting that your definition is wrong, but that it is merely a subset of the entire category of triangles. It's kind of like saying that all squares are rectangles, and therefor all rectangles must have sides of equal length.
 
I’m not trying to disprove anything here. I’m trying to understand why a lot of educated, clever and intelligent people are happy to accept certain things that I have trouble accepting.

A lot of people accept relativity because it makes predictions that agree with experiment. Relativity makes your GPS work correctly. Are you saying that GPS does not work correctly?

Also, I would still like an example of an experiment, used to determine the validity of relativity, that assumed relativity was right, as you claimed.


Of course the simple answer could be that I’m not sufficiently educated, clever or intelligent. I don’t particularly care who came up with the things or what they are called. I don’t automatically adopt other peoples acceptance of things (regardless of how educated, clever, intelligent and numerous they are) if that acceptance requires me to abandon what I perceive to be reality, actuality, factual, truth, honesty, common sense or whatever label you want to give it. If any theory or mathematical system requires that I accept that a triangle can be drawn on the surface of a sphere, then I have a problem in accepting that theory or system. My reasoning why I can’t accept that a triangle can be drown on the surface a sphere is shown below. Apparently my reasoning is wrong. I would appreciate an explanation of how and where it's wrong.

A triangle consists of three straight lines.

So far, so good.


A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.

Although this is only strictly true in Eulcidean geometry, we'll go with it here.



The shortest distance between diametrically opposed points on a sphere is the line of the diameter.


Here's the flaw. The line of the diameter isn't exactly on the sphere, is it? We are confining ourselves to draw lines on the two-dimensional surface of the earth. Yes, if a third dimension is available, we can make a "shortcut", but let's keep ourselves to the 2-dimensional surface, where there are no shortcuts. The shortest path between two points on the surface of a sphere is a geodesic.


A line on the surface of a sphere is a curved line.

No. The line is not curved, the surface itself is curved. A geodesic (the line you make, say, driving from one place to another) is completely straight for a given surface. It is the shortest path (on the surface) from one place to another.


A triangle cannot therefore be drawn on the surface of a sphere.

I think the problem you are having is with the notion of "straightness". I don't think it means what you think it means. For more information on the notion of straight lines, wikipedia is, as usual, your friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic
 
I think one of the issues with the whole triangle bit is that you are using a slightly different definition of triangle than the one most mathematicians use. Here is a web page showing how to identify triangles.

I am not suggesting that your definition is wrong, but that it is merely a subset of the entire category of triangles. It's kind of like saying that all squares are rectangles, and therefor all rectangles must have sides of equal length.
Thanks - I can’t see anything on the linked page that that is any different from my definition of triangles.

I don’t agree that “It's kind of like saying that all squares are rectangles” in any way. A square has all sides of equal length and an oblong has opposite sides of equal length (never all sides). Both are independently identifiable and one is never the other. I’m baffled by your claim!
 
  1. A triangle consists of three straight lines.
  2. A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
OK.
The shortest distance between diametrically opposed points on a sphere is the line of the diameter

No, because the diameter is not on the sphere. The interior and exterior of the sphere don't exist, only its surface does. The shortest path is actually an arc of a circle that has a diameter equal to the diameter of the sphere (such as a meridian, but not a parallel).

A line on the surface of a sphere is a curved line.
Yes, but with your definition of 'straight', a line can be curved and straight at the same time (this is why instead of straight lines we talk about geodesics)
 
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A lot of people accept relativity because it makes predictions that agree with experiment. Relativity makes your GPS work correctly. Are you saying that GPS does not work correctly?
So the end justifies the means? In the interest of keeping things as simple as possible, I would rather not address the GPS issue at present.

Also, I would still like an example of an experiment, used to determine the validity of relativity, that assumed relativity was right, as you claimed.
Ummmm . . . GPS?


Here's the flaw. The line of the diameter isn't exactly on the sphere, is it? We are confining ourselves to draw lines on the two-dimensional surface of the earth. Yes, if a third dimension is available, we can make a "shortcut", but let's keep ourselves to the 2-dimensional surface, where there are no shortcuts. The shortest path between two points on the surface of a sphere is a geodesic.
Not sure if it’s the “flaw” but it’s certainly the crux of my “problem”. I don’t see that it matters if the line is on the sphere, imbedded in the sphere or hovering above it. If it conforms to the shape of the sphere, it’s curved.
The royal “We” doesn’t include me. I can see no reason to confine ourselves to a 2-dimensional surface. In fact to do so is to require me to “abandon what I perceive to be reality, actuality, factual, truth, honesty, common sense or whatever label you want to give it.” I can find no evidence that existence is ever anything less than 3D. In other words, 2D is and abstract concept that cannot exist independent from the reality of 3D existence. The 3D “shortcut” is always available and I can see no reason to ever discount it.


No. The line is not curved, the surface itself is curved. A geodesic (the line you make, say, driving from one place to another) is completely straight for a given surface. It is the shortest path (on the surface) from one place to another.
So if a multitude of lines were formed in to a sphere it wouldn’t be curved? Seems as silly as Hokulele suggesting that squares can be described as oblongs.

I think the problem you are having is with the notion of "straightness". I don't think it means what you think it means. For more information on the notion of straight lines, wikipedia is, as usual, your friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic
As I have defined “A straight line is the shortest distance between two points”. In the reality of 3D existence, a direct route is always possible. An indirect route therefore is never the shortest distance.
 
2 out of 4 ain’t bad :D
No, because the diameter is not on the sphere. The interior and exterior of the sphere don't exist, only its surface does. The shortest path is actually an arc of a circle that has a diameter equal to the diameter of the sphere (such as a meridian, but not a parallel).)
I can’t agree. In the reality of 3D existence the interior and exterior of the sphere always do exist. What doesn’t exist is the 2D abstract theory that only the surface exists

Yes, but with your definition of 'straight', a line can be curved and straight at the same time (this is why instead of straight lines we talk about geodesics)
I don’t see how. To me that is what you are claiming. Could you please explain what you mean.

ETA - Yes, a line can be straight in one plane and curved in another. But this is a curved line, not a straight one.
 
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Were what you say true, ynot, then the shortest distance between two points in 3 dimensional space should be described in 4 dimensions, as "the shortcut always exists".
 
So the end justifies the means? In the interest of keeping things as simple as possible, I would rather not address the GPS issue at present.

By all means, address the GPS issue.


Ummmm . . . GPS?

GPS is not an experiment used to test relativity. Please, read my posts more carefully. I get very irked when crucial statements are ignored. There have been numerous experiments specifically designed to test relativity. Once we confirmed that relativty was correct, we could use it in applications.

So, please identify an experiment, that was used to test relativity, that assumed relativity was correct. Please.

Not sure if it’s the “flaw” but it’s certainly the crux of my “problem”. I don’t see that it matters if the line is on the sphere, imbedded in the sphere or hovering above it. If it conforms to the shape of the sphere, it’s curved.
The royal “We” doesn’t include me. I can see no reason to confine ourselves to a 2-dimensional surface. In fact to do so is to require me to “abandon what I perceive to be reality, actuality, factual, truth, honesty, common sense or whatever label you want to give it.” I can find no evidence that existence is ever anything less than 3D. In other words, 2D is and abstract concept that cannot exist independent from the reality of 3D existence. The 3D “shortcut” is always available and I can see no reason to ever discount it.



So if a multitude of lines were formed in to a sphere it wouldn’t be curved? Seems as silly as Hokulele suggesting that squares can be described as oblongs.


As I have defined “A straight line is the shortest distance between two points”. In the reality of 3D existence, a direct route is always possible. An indirect route therefore is never the shortest distance.


You have forgotten the rules of the game we are playing. You were upset that Richard Feynman drew a triangle on a sphere. Not in or through. On. I know that I can go through the earth. I know the universe if 4 dimensional (you forgot time). But we are describing how to draw lines on the surface. On. On. On. On. When we confine ourselves to draw on the surface of a sphere, we limit ourselves to 2 dimensions: latitude and longitude.

The earth: 3 dimensional.
The surface of the earth: 2 dimensional.
Lines drawn on the surface of the earth must stay on the surface, or, by definition, they are no longer drawn on the surface!

Tell me: did you read the link about geodesics before, or even after, forming your reply?

If I go through the earth to draw a triangle, then I am no longer drawing lines on the surface of the earth: I am now drawing lines on a plane that intersects the surface of the earth.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
 
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Oh, I almost forgot! BeAChooser, I'm still waiting those 4 predictions of plasma cosmology, so we can compare to observations!
 
By all means, address the GPS issue.




GPS is not an experiment used to test relativity. Please, read my posts more carefully. I get very irked when crucial statements are ignored. There have been numerous experiments specifically designed to test relativity. Once we confirmed that relativty was correct, we could use it in applications.

So, please identify an experiment, that was used to test relativity, that assumed relativity was correct. Please.




You have forgotten the rules of the game we are playing. You were upset that Richard Feynman drew a triangle on a sphere. Not in or through. On. I know that I can go through the earth. I know the universe if 4 dimensional (you forgot time). But we are describing how to draw lines on the surface. On. On. On. On. When we confine ourselves to draw on the surface of a sphere, we limit ourselves to 2 dimensions: latitude and longitude.

The earth: 3 dimensional.
The surface of the earth: 2 dimensional.
Lines drawn on the surface of the earth must stay on the surface, or, by definition, they are no longer drawn on the surface!

Tell me: did you read the link about geodesics before, or even after, forming your reply?

If I go through the earth to draw a triangle, then I am no longer drawing lines on the surface of the earth: I am now drawing lines on a plane that intersects the surface of the earth.

Cheers,
TV's Frank
Sorry but you have it wrong. I’m not upset that that Richard Feynman drew a triangle on a sphere. I cringe that he claims he can. In my opinion he can’t and he doesn’t. I don’t accept that what he draws is a triangle.

I didn’t forget time. Seems you forgot I don’t accept Relativity. I’m not sure (regardless of whether I accept Relativity or not) that I accept time as a dimension. That’s why I wrote “I can find no evidence that existence is ever anything less than 3D”. As I can’t find any evidence that existence is ever anything less than 3D, I don’t see why I should consider anything in an impossible 2D state.

I had a brief look at the link to geodesics. It’s a bit like a theist handing me a bible. You expect me to find answers from a source that I don’t accept is valid. For me, the evidence has to come from the outside in, not the inside out. The solution can’t come from the conclusion.
 
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So you did. My mistake - very sorry. What you said still doesn’t make any sense to me however.


No worries. :)

Maybe the Wiki article can better explain the relationship between squares, rectangles, and oblongs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectangle

One of the odd things about mathematicians and scientists, is that they are often very picky about definitions. As you have already seen, even a simple word such as "straight" can have connotations that are different from what you see in other types of writing. Although it is a good thing in any type of writing, being very clear is even more important in science writing. Hopefully this clears a few things up. If not, let me know.
 
You are only quoting from places like space.com and similar, never from actual papers, so you are getting only strawmen and poorly worded results.

So all my sources are just strawmen and poorly worded results? And none are peer reviewed academic papers? If you want to claim that when readers can easily see for themselves by reading this thread that's not true, I'm ok with that. :D

By the way, you aren't quoting ANYTHING ... just making claim after claim that I show to be untrue. That works for me, too.

you seem to imply plasma cosmology is a complete, finished theory, that already explains everything.

That's not what I'm saying, as I think any intelligent reader can see. How could it be a complete and finished theory when so little resources have been spent on it over the years compared to the amazing Big Bang. But in terms of explaining what is going on out there, it does seem to do a much better job already, without resorting to all manner of kludge and fantasy object.

Quote:
"It's a bit of a challenge to understand how this black hole got enough mass to reach its size."

How does plasma cosmology explain this precise object? You are always claiming it explains everything, but have provided no hard data. We don't exactly know how these supermassive black holes form, but we know they are there.

Well, first of all, plasma cosmology would argue that's not a black hole. They can explain the jets via far more mundane and provable physics ... physics they've demonstrated in the lab. Big Bang astrophysicists only INFER that the object is a black hole (which of course they've never actually seen or created) with the mass of all the stars in the Milky Way at the extreme edge of the universe. And how did they do that?

The article I cited states that "Determining a precise mass for the black hole found by Romani's team, dubbed Q0906+6930, is a bit tricky though since it's so far away. ... snip ..., The black hole, called a blazar because it spews jets of radiation in roughly the direction of Earth, sits at the center of a galaxy about 12.7 billion light-years away in the constellation Ursa Major. ... snip ... Because the blazar is so distant, there are no nearby neighbors to scan for potential gravitational effects, and much of its radiation is absorbed by gas and dust lying between it and the Earth, Romani said. "It really is too far away to do a direct orbital measurement to help determine its mass," Romani said, adding that he and his colleagues had to estimate the mass based on a quantitative method that includes measuring particle velocity and the Doppler shift of its infrared emission lines."

Based on the above description, does anyone here understand how they arrived at the mass estimate? Well, I delved further and found they used something called the "virial relation" ... which it turns out is redshift dependent and ignores what plasma cosmologists have been saying for decades about the cause of motions in things like spiral galaxies. And if the redshift measure of distance to quasars (and this object is stated to be a quasar in numerous sources) is suspect (as I've already demonstrated in this thread) then the mass claimed for the object and its distance must be suspect too.

Even more suspicious is that Zwicky first proposed the existence of "dark matter" by applying the virial theorem. If after more than 30 years, we still haven't found any proof of that substance, perhaps we should be reexamining the root theorem that was used?

Then provide some link where they explain this object.

I have. You just haven't bothered to read anything I've posted or linked. I tell you what ... use your browser. Look up plasmoids, fusion focus devices and z-pinches. Or are you too lazy?

Everyone knows from a long time ago that neutron stars and similar objects create jets (have you heard the term pulsar?)

Neutron stars? You actually believe there are stars made entirely of neutrons ... neutronium ... a substance that science here on earth suggests is completely unstable because neutrons by themselves are unstable? And you really think that stars can rotate at the sort of speeds that are claimed for pulsars and remain intact? 38,000 RPM? Really? ROTFLOL!

Plasma cosmologists have offered explanation for the observations that caused Big Bang astronomers to invent the notion of the neutron star that don't require such silliness.

Here's the more likely explanation: http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060123nebula.htm . Perhaps pulsars are electrical activity between binary stars or a plasma focus.

Here's a recent image from the Hubble Telescope of the Crab Nebula, which contains a pulsar.

m1pulsar.jpg


Notice the "knot". That might be a binary star companion or it might be part of the jet. If you look at the shape of the plasma cloud around the pulsar and the orientation of the jet, however,

sol01_07.jpg


what you see is a homopolar motor, a electrical circuit concept first developed by Faraday that plasma cosmologists have applied to explain galaxies and stars. At the center of these objects, plasma cosmologists say there is the equivalent of a plasma focus, a device that plasma physicists have created and studied extensively in labs here on earth.

In a plasma focus device a plasmoid forms and stores energy at the focus of a discharge. When the plasmoid reaches a critical energy level, it discharges its energy in a collimated jet along its axis in the form of electromagnetic radiation and neutrons. Being unstable outside a nucleus, the neutrons soon decay into protons and electrons. The electrons are held back by the electromagnetic field, and the high-speed protons are beamed away. The process can be repeated over and over at very high frequencies.

It all fits. No need for Big Bang magic.

Here's another case that suggests a plasma focus is the source of the radiation from neutron stars/pulsars. Remember pulsars supposedly start out as supernova. But what are supernova? Even the standard models explanation of that is in doubt due to the following data and the work of plasma cosmologists. You'd be wise to read the following. It shows data that only plasma cosmologists seem able to explain about supernova observations using their electric sun and z-pinch models. You'd be wise to look at it because your going to be seeing a lot more of it in the future.

http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=re6qxnz1 "24 August 2005, Supernova 1987A Decoded"

The above source also notes that "Plasma cosmologists have not ignored the pulsar, sometimes found in a supernova remnant. Healy and Peratt in “Radiation Properties of Pulsar Magnetospheres: Observation, Theory and Experiment,” concluded, “the source of the radiation energy may not be contained within the pulsar, but may instead derive either from the pulsar’s interaction with its environment or by energy delivered by an external circuit.... [O]ur results support the ‘planetary magnetosphere’ view, where the extent of the magnetosphere, not emission points on a rotating surface, determines the pulsar emission.” In other words, we do not require a hypothetical super-condensed object to form a pulsar. A normal stellar remnant undergoing periodic discharges will suffice. Plasma cosmology has the virtue of not requiring neutron stars or black holes to explain compact sources of radiation. "

Here's the peer reviewed article that is mentioned above by Healy and Peratt: http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/downloads/HealyPeratt1995.pdf. Take a look at it. It demolishes the neutron star explanation and provides another ... one consistent with the tenants of plasma cosmology.

Here's another peer reviewed paper on this subject and particular case by some different scientists ... who reach the same conclusion:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?isnumber=36024&arnumber=1707326&count=477&index=452 " "The plasma Z-pinch morphology of supernova 1987A and the implications for supernova remnants ... snip ... Supernova 1987A is the closest supernova event since the invention of the telescope. It was first seen in February 1987 in the nearby Magellanic cloud, a dwarf companion galaxy of the Milky Way, and only 169,000 light years from Earth. The Hubble images of the rings of SN 1987A are spectacular and unexpected. Conventional theory did not predict the presence of the three rings nor the pattern of bright "beads" in the equatorial ring of SN 1987A. The pattern of brightening is not explained by an expanding shock front into an earlier stellar "wind". The axial shape of SN 1987A is that of a planetary nebula. It seems that new concepts are required to explain supernovae and planetary nebulae. The new discipline of plasma cosmology provides a precise analog in the form of a Z-pinch plasma discharge. The phenomena match so accurately that the number of bright beads can be accounted for and their behavior predicted. If supernovae are a plasma discharge phenomenon, the theoretical conditions for forming neutron stars and other "super-condensed" objects is not fulfilled and plasma concepts must be introduced to explain pulsar remnants of supernovae"

I'm tired of all these examples, because they are pointless.

I'm sure you are. You tired of the examples the moment I actually started citing sources to prove you are wrong about astrophysicists upholding the laws of electromagnetism. But you go ahead and keep your head in the ground, Yllanes. :D

Mainstream physicists violate Maxwell's equations (you need a link to a paper that does that, it is not enough with a series of analogies for laymen).

Go ahead, Yllanes ... just provide a source that shows scientists demonstrating in an experiment reconnecting magnetic field lines in the manner postulated in astrophysics. That should be easy to do if doing that doesn't violate the laws of magnetism as they've been understood all the way up until the time astrophysicists started claiming magnetic lines could "reconnect".

Here's all I could find to help you out: http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/plasma/380.pdf "Introduction to Plasma Physics: ... snip ... The Sweet-Parker reconnection ansatz is undoubtedly correct. It has been simulated numerically innumerable times, and was recently confirmed experimentally in the Magnetic Reconnection Experiment (MRX) operated by Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory. 37 The problem is that Sweet-Parker reconnection takes place far too slowly to account for many reconnection processes which are thought to take place in the solar system. For instance, in solar flares S ? 10^^8, VA ? 100 kms^^?1, and L ? 10^^4 km. According to the Sweet-Parker model, magnetic energy is released to the plasma via reconnection on a typical time-scale of a few tens of days. In reality, the energy is released in a few minutes to an hour. Clearly, we can only hope to account for solar flares using a reconnection mechanism which operates far faster than the Sweet-Parker mechanism. One, admittedly rather controversial, resolution of this problem was suggested by Petschek. ... snip ... It must be pointed out that the Petschek model is very controversial. Many physicists think that it is completely wrong, and that the maximum rate of magnetic reconnection allowed by MHD is that predicted by the Sweet-Parker model. In particular, Biskamp wrote an influential and widely quoted paper reporting the results of a numerical experiment which appeared to disprove the Petschek model. ... snip ... Probably the most powerful argument against the validity of the Petschek model is the fact that, more than 30 years after it was first proposed, nobody has ever managed to simulate Petschek reconnection numerically (except by artificially increasing the resistivity in the reconnecting region—which is not a legitimate approach)."

30 years and still no demonstration of the reconnecting magnetic lines with the characteristics claimed to explain astronomical observations! Well I guess we should expect so much. Afterall, they've been looking for Dark Matter for more than 30 years too. But in that case, I guess that's not a "powerful argument" against their existence? ROTFLOL!

Here's another even later source on the above case which again proves your understanding of this subject is wrong and that I am right. Classical electromagnetism does not allow for the magnetic reconnection claimed by astrophysicists to be occurring in the sun and other stellar objects (like imagined black holes):

http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/archives/19990327/bob1.asp "Although suspecting that reconnection plays a leading role in the solar drama, theorists have struggled for decades to explain how. Plasmas, especially on the sun, are wispy gases, but the magnetic fields threading through them make them behave as if they were viscous fluids, flowing and intermingling slowly. According to the classical theory of plasmas, magnetic field lines cannot reconnect or, at best, can do so only at a stately pace because of this viscosity. This model is obviously incomplete because it would require millions of years for solar flares to release the energy they expel in minutes or hours. ... snip ... The results of the Princeton experiments don't quite match any of the theories of reconnection advanced so far, Yamada explains. As described in the April 13, 1998 PHYSICAL REVIEW LETTERS, he and his colleagues see reconnection taking place at a pace much faster than classical theory would allow but still only a hundredth of the rate required to explain solar flares. Also, within the turmoil of the spheromaks' collision, they see no evidence of shock waves. Uncertain how to explain their findings, the Princeton researchers suggest that they may have discovered a new phenomenon that none of the previous theories included. It's a turbulence in the plasma that would increase interactions between plasma particles and thereby promote reconnections."

Now the first source indicated that the experiments confirm that reconnection occurs at the stately pace allowed by classical theory. The second source says this too. But when the second source states "This model is obviously incomplete because it would require millions of years for solar flares to release the energy they expel in minutes or hours", perhaps they are mistaken because they simply ignore what plasma cosmologists and electric sun theorists have been trying to tell them is the source of solar flare energy for decades. And that model doesn't require magnetic reconnection. It's already been demonstrated in the laboratory many times.

Quote:
The moment of the singularity is not part of the Big Bang. But I thought Cuddles claimed that anything after that moment wasn't part of the theory. Perhaps you two should consult one another.

This doesn't make sense. Cuddles said the same as I did, that the fact that the universe is expanding is based on observations and implies that the universe was smaller in the past.

You said "he existence of a singularity is not important to the Big Bang model". Cuddles said "Dark matter is not the big bang. Dark energy is not the big bang. Rotational curves are not the big bang. Nothing you have said has any bearing whatsoever on the big bang." What's that leave? :D

Quote:
If the electric model for stars is correct (and it seems to be the only one that actually explains the observations), stars will be charged bodies.

Well, they are not, so the premise for all that follows is already wrong. If stars were charged bodies, we would know.

By all means, prove that. Provide a source describing the experiment that determined the sun is electrically neutral. That it's charge has been measured. That we know this, as you claimed. I bet you can't. You are just making things up or regurgitating the ASSUMPTIONS of astrophysicists.

Black holes can have charge. Charged black holes are called Reisser-Nördstrom black holes.

A Reissner-Nordström black hole has ZERO angular momentum ... in other words it doesn't spin ... it doesn't rotate ... as is assumed in all of the cases of stellar black holes we've been discussing. Sorry, that just doesn't apply. So my challenge to you remains. If the electric sun people are right and stars are charged bodies, how could they produce the black holes that Big Bang astronomers claim are everywhere *out there*? It's a paradox. Maybe we should actually do an experiment to see if the sun is charged. The results could falsify black holes, as employed by astrophysicists. :)
 
To do this you need to understand at least the basics of relativity, which you don't apparently.

You don't know what I know about relativity. I haven't said anything one way or the other about it. Because that's not the focus on this thread. But I have proven that the father of relativity said black holes are not part of the theory and any theory that includes them is wrong. Or words to that effect.
 
I've done nothing of the sort. I've specifically stated you should not jump to conclusions, which is exactly what you have done, by claiming "the big bang theory is dead".

Personally, I will wait to see what others have to say about it.

Well I tell you what ... when others make a response in a peer reviewed journal that show the peer reviewed paper I linked is wrong, you link us to it here. Now don't forget. :D

By the way, I have one comment about your statement. The folks that have really been jumping to conclusions are the Big Bang proponents who've simply ignored what plasma experts have been trying to tell them for decades, and hastily accepted all manner of magical particle, force, energy, interaction and event in order to save Big Bang.
 
why can't you provide 4 simple numbers?

You going to start that too? I have to warn you, it's a symptom of desperation.

I'll give you the same answer I gave TV's Frank and see if you have the guts to actually respond to what I wrote in response to his demand:

*********

Originally Posted by TV's Frank
If I were to go out and measure the spatial curvature of the universe, what does plasma cosmology predict to be the answer?

Just what it is ... without the need for inflation or any other wacky, unexplainable nonsense. Now here was my challenge to Frank (and now you Taffer)... tell our readers how many different models of inflation the Big Bang priesthood has dreamed up over the years ... because one magical gnome was not enough to fit the data.

Originally Posted by TV's Frank
If I go looking for CMB anisotropies, at what multipole should I find the largest peak?

If I look for spectral index of CMB fluctuations, what does plasma cosmology say I will find?

As I responded to Frank, the latest observational data from astronomers suggests the CMB is not coming from behind galactic clusters like he and the Big Bang assume. Here was the source I cited to back that up:

http://www.physorg.com/news76314500.html "September 01, 2006, ... snip ... In a finding sure to cause controversy, scientists at The University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH) found a lack of evidence of shadows from "nearby" clusters of galaxies using new, highly accurate measurements of the cosmic microwave background. A team of UAH scientists led by Dr. Richard Lieu, a professor of physics, used data from NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) to scan the cosmic microwave background for shadows caused by 31 clusters of galaxies. "These shadows are a well-known thing that has been predicted for years," said Lieu. "This is the only direct method of determining the distance to the origin of the cosmic microwave background. Up to now, all the evidence that it originated from as far back in time as the Big Bang fireball has been circumstantial. ... snip ... If the standard Big Bang theory of the universe is accurate and the background microwave radiation came to Earth from the furthest edges of the universe, then massive X-ray emitting clusters of galaxies nearest our own Milky Way galaxy should all cast shadows on the microwave background. These findings are scheduled to be published in the Sept. 1, 2006, edition of the Astrophysical Journal. Taken together, the data shows a shadow effect about one-fourth of what was predicted - an amount roughly equal in strength to natural variations previously seen in the microwave background across the entire sky. Either it (the microwave background) isn't coming from behind the clusters, which means the Big Bang is blown away, or ... there is something else going on," said Lieu. "One possibility is to say the clusters themselves are microwave emitting sources, either from an embedded point source or from a halo of microwave-emitting material that is part of the cluster environment." "Based on all that we know about radiation sources and halos around clusters, however, you wouldn't expect to see this kind of emission. And it would be implausible to suggest that several clusters could all emit microwaves at just the right frequency and intensity to match the cosmic background radiation." And there was this little tidbit at the end of that article: "Just over a year ago Lieu and Dr. Jonathan Mittaz, a UAH research associate, published results of a study using WMAP data to look for evidence of "lensing" effects which should have been seen (but weren't) if the microwave background was a Big Bang remnant."

As I said to Frank, maybe the cosmic background radiation isn't coming from where you think? And that's what plasma cosmologists have been saying. They propose that the CMB results from local fields and currents that scatter microwave radiation from the pervasive plasma source. That's why I told Frank that if he didn't have an explanation for the above observation, his numbers might mean next to nothing. Do you have an explanation Taffer? Or you just going to beg off and say you aren't an astronomer, again? :)

Originally Posted by TV's Frank
If I go looking at the distribution of matter in the universe, what are the RMS fluctuations in 8 Mpc spheres?

As I told Frank, this question is truly hilarious when his experts are basing their numbers on a claim that 20% of the matter in the universe is invisible, non-interacting (except for gravity) and undetermined (because they can't seem to find it despite 30 years and thousands of mega-dollars trying). The model he supports assumes 5 TIMES more matter than ordinary matter (the stuff that obeys physics as we know it here on earth).

Because it is almost laughable to think a quantity based on such assumptions can be right, I asked him in return, which came first? The observations or the dark matter? And I'll add now, that if quasars are shown to not be distant objects, how will that affect the estimate for Dark Matter and Dark Energy, and the resulting numbers he's asking for above? You have an answer, Taffer? Hmmmm? :)

***********

Here's what else TV's Frank doesn't want to talk about and why he's put forth his 4 number challenge ... or should I say distraction? How about you, Taffer? You want to discuss any these in detail?

Observations now show Big Bang cosmology's claim that higher redshifts only imply farther distances is wrong. Most of what they claim to be the farthest objects in the universe may be comparatively close. Which makes some of the numbers TV's Frank thinks he knows wrong.

The age of certain stars in it (according to mainstream astrophysics theory) is considerably older than Big Bang's *number* for the age of the universe ... even assuming the redshift relationship applies to all objects out there (which it clearly doesn't) and assuming dark energy exists.

It is utterly ridiculous is the Big Bang claim that 96% of all the mass and mass-equivalent in the universe is dark matter and dark energy ... *something* which astrophysicists, after 30 years of expensive search, have completely failed to turn up. Without this immense kludge, their whole model simply collapses. Instead, when further observations suggest those entities don't exist (like the example in this thread's subject article), they immediately add new magical gnomes to the model to explain it instead of doing the logical thing and reexamining their base assumptions.

Observations of strings of galaxies make structures that according to mainstream astronomers could not possibly have formed from gravity in the time the Big Bang community says the universe has existed. Mainstream astronomers are worried ... but not TV's Frank. How about you, Taffer. You worried?

Big Bang predicts the flatness of the universe but doesn't mention all the kludges that have been necessary to make the model fit what we see ... not the least of which is *inflation* which has now been proposed in at least half a dozen flavors.

Observations show the process the Big Bang community claims for the formation of heavy elements isn't correct. How bad is their understanding of stars and how they work? They can't even explain most of the phenomena observed on the surface of the sun without resorting to claims of further magic in the way of new magnetic phenomena that Hannes Alfven and electrical engineers who understand such physics say are nothing more than fantasy ... phenomena that have never been demonstrated in an earth based lab.

**************

Maybe what you should do is attempt to address this, Taffer:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...t+element+abundance&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=13&gl=us "The Top 30 Problems with the Big Bang, April 2002"

:D

***********

Inferring things doesn't make it magical.

But inferring things that are unlike anything we've actually encountered before does make it magical. Especially when you still insist your thing exists after 30 years of unsuccessful, expensive search for it.

Quote:
I asked you to define what it is. Can you?

Since I'm not an astrophysicist, I wouldn't even bother to try.

I didn't think you'd be able to. ROTFLOL!

What law of gravity are we using, now? I must have missed where we explained what gravity was.

But you can experiment with the gravity forces acting between ordinary matter here on earth. Can you do that with dark matter? Hmmmmmm?

Since string theory is not the big bang theory, I fail to see what this has to do with anything.

I guess you are unaware that string theory is being called on to explain inflation. Oh let me guess, you don't think inflation is part of the Big Bang theory either. Right? ;)

By what basis do you presume that everything in the universe can be nicely detected by our current level of technology?

So you are going to fall back on claiming we haven't the technology to detect these dozen or so magic gnomes Big Bang cosmologists have created? So can the Pope use that same logic ... that you haven't the technology to detect God?

Quote:
Do you?

Given that I "perform science" every day, and I am qualified to do so, I think it's pretty safe to say I do.

Well that's a nice CLAIM.

And yet you cannot provide 4 simple numbers?

You not going to debate me either, if I don't give you 4 numbers? ROTFLOL!

Where are the peer reviewed articles which make predicitions which can be varified?

I suggest you reread this thread. You'll find a lot of peer reviewed articles cited and predictions given. But you have to read them and there's your problem. You won't. Because you haven't so far. And that's my prediction.
 

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