String theory and creationism tactics

becomingagodo

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Now, string theory has not been confrimed even worse it has not made any prediction that differ from other TOE's. So why is their popular string theory books and even programmes on TV about string theory.

See string theory could and proberly is completely wrong. However, I can't judge this theory because I am a layman. Which, is the problem as laypeople would read the popular books and watch the programme about string theory. How can they judge if string theory is correct when your reading a string theory book?

The problem is that string theory books inhibit critical thinking as your not a scientist, you don't understand the mathematics. Popular science books can be good like explaining Einstein's theories or looking at quantum mechanics, however when we are dealing with a theory that has not been confrimed it is bad.

Creationist write book to get the layperson to get them to believe in their theory, however string theorist are doing the same. String theory has more merit then creationism, however it has not been confrimed and you have to believe in string theory.
 
Now, string theory has not been confrimed even worse it has not made any prediction that differ from other TOE's. So why is their popular string theory books and even programmes on TV about string theory.

See string theory could and proberly is completely wrong. However, I can't judge this theory because I am a layman. Which, is the problem as laypeople would read the popular books and watch the programme about string theory. How can they judge if string theory is correct when your reading a string theory book?

The problem is that string theory books inhibit critical thinking as your not a scientist, you don't understand the mathematics. Popular science books can be good like explaining Einstein's theories or looking at quantum mechanics, however when we are dealing with a theory that has not been confrimed it is bad.

Creationist write book to get the layperson to get them to believe in their theory, however string theorist are doing the same. String theory has more merit then creationism, however it has not been confrimed and you have to believe in string theory.

Have you visited a doctor yet? This is probably treatable, you know.
 
Now, string theory has not been confrimed even worse it has not made any prediction that differ from other TOE's. So why is their popular string theory books and even programmes on TV about string theory.

Did you look and see what string theory may predict?

See string theory could and proberly is completely wrong. However, I can't judge this theory because I am a layman. Which, is the problem as laypeople would read the popular books and watch the programme about string theory. How can they judge if string theory is correct when your reading a string theory book?

I'm curious - how can you say it is probably wrong but you can't judge it? I think you just did judge it.

The problem is that string theory books inhibit critical thinking as your not a scientist, you don't understand the mathematics. Popular science books can be good like explaining Einstein's theories or looking at quantum mechanics, however when we are dealing with a theory that has not been confrimed it is bad.

How do they inhibit critical thinking? I would think they would stimulate it. You know, trying to figure out what the predictions should be and looking for evidence of them.

Creationist write book to get the layperson to get them to believe in their theory, however string theorist are doing the same. String theory has more merit then creationism, however it has not been confrimed and you have to believe in string theory.

Creationists don't have a theory.
 
Now, string theory has not been confrimed even worse it has not made any prediction that differ from other TOE's.

Well doesn't it say things like, if we could figure out this math problem here we could make some predictions.. and they're seeing if anyone can come up with some new math to figure it out?

I don't have a problem with science going through a period like that. In the end you either keep it or throw it away. But without the math being 'done', no need to quit.
 
And when somebody who speaks English and has a PhD in physics talks about its shortcomings, I'll listen.

I suggest you read a recent book titled "The Trouble With Physics" by a PhD in physics named Lee Smolin. Smolin is a long time string theorist who has grown quite disillusioned with the notion as well as the process by which it is investigated and promoted. He indicts not only String Theory but modern physics in general. In fact, he suggests that in the last 30 years or so, physicists have discovered almost nothing fundamentally new, in contrast to what they did in each 30 year period before that. He says it is a problem with the way physics is now being taught, funded and conducted.

Ironically, the same complaints he levies against those who control the physics education/research/publishing/funding community also apply to the Big Bang/astrophysics community. But he can't see that because he's an outsider and therefore just trusts that the process leading astrophysicists to gnomes like black holes and dark matter is working too. But it's not.
 
Now, string theory has not been confrimed even worse it has not made any prediction that differ from other TOE's. So why is their popular string theory books and even programmes on TV about string theory.

See string theory could and proberly is completely wrong. However, I can't judge this theory because I am a layman. Which, is the problem as laypeople would read the popular books and watch the programme about string theory. How can they judge if string theory is correct when your reading a string theory book?

The problem is that string theory books inhibit critical thinking as your not a scientist, you don't understand the mathematics. Popular science books can be good like explaining Einstein's theories or looking at quantum mechanics, however when we are dealing with a theory that has not been confrimed it is bad.

Creationist write book to get the layperson to get them to believe in their theory, however string theorist are doing the same. String theory has more merit then creationism, however it has not been confrimed and you have to believe in string theory.

String theory has its detractors in the scientific community, but I am not aware that it is not falsifiable. My admittedly limited understanding of it is that it does make testable predictions that would allow it to be falsified.

Creationism is not scientific because it either makes predictions which have been falsified, i.e. there was a worldwide flood, there should not be any transitional fossils, etc., or it simply says "god did it", which is compatible with any state of affairs because god could choose whatever methods it wants, and so, while it may be true, is useless as an explanatory model. i.e. you cannot use it to make any predictions, because by definition whatever you discover is what god did

You do make a good point that sometimes a lay person is not in a position to properly evaluate pseudo-scientific ideas from validly scientific ones, especially in areas of esoteric knowledge, like Quantum or string theory. There are many sources on the Internet that you can use to separate the wheat from the chaffe, in particular you can google "baloney detection kit", an idea spawned by Carl Sagan. Here is a list of ways to detect pseudo-science from one site that came up after such a search:
  • Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts
  • Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.
  • Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").
  • Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.
  • Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours.
  • Quantify, wherever possible.
  • If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work.
  • "Occam's razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.
  • Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, it is testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?
The last one is particularly useful. If a field is to have any scientific respectability, the best of theories must always yield to reality. If a practice has a predetermined conclusion, and is not willing to yield its conclusions in the face of disconfirming evidence, then it is, by definition, not scientific.

This is a perfect description of creationism. It is not just that its practitioners are unwilling to change their personal beliefs in the face of overwhelming disconfirming evidence, this is the entire foundation of the practice itself. Creationism entails that that facts must fit the conclusions, because the conclusions have already been revealed, its proponents believe, by the all mighty deity in their holy book.

No amount of evidence can ever change this, because no amount of evidence can change what was written in their book thousands of years ago. Fossils? DNA? Chromosome fusion? Radiometric dating? - all nonsense as far as creationism is concerned because they already HAVE their answer, its completely untethered from any amount of data. That is the exact opposite of the scientific approach, which is entirely data driven at its core.

I am not aware that the same can be said of string theory. It definitely cannot be said of any widely accepted scientific theory I am aware of.
 
Ironically, the same complaints he levies against those who control the physics education/research/publishing/funding community also apply to the Big Bang/astrophysics community. But he can't see that because he's an outsider and therefore just trusts that the process leading astrophysicists to gnomes like black holes and dark matter is working too. But it's not.

Please explain how black holes, which:

1) are well understood mathematically
2) an absolute prediction of relativity theory (which is incredibly solid) and
3) have actually been observed

is a "gnome"?
 
I suggest you read a recent book titled "The Trouble With Physics" by a PhD in physics named Lee Smolin.

You would like that book - typical. It's essentially one long rant about how more money should be given to Smolin's particular stripe of quantum gravity theory (which incidentally is probably indistinguishable from string theory to any non-expert), and how string theorists are misogynists that beat their pets (I'm not making that up, he really said that) and have no scientific vision.

Smolin is a long time string theorist who has grown quite disillusioned with the notion as well as the process by which it is investigated and promoted.

Nonsense. He wrote a few crappy papers on string theory 30 years ago.

He says it is a problem with the way physics is now being taught, funded and conducted.

Because that's the only reason he can think of that students aren't flocking to his research program.

Ironically, the same complaints he levies against those who control the physics education/research/publishing/funding community also apply to the Big Bang/astrophysics community.

The quackulence comes fully into view...

String theory has its detractors in the scientific community, but I am not aware that it is not falsifiable. My admittedly limited understanding of it is that it does make testable predictions that would allow it to be falsified.

That is correct. But there are other reasons to regard it as scientific.

Basically, science does not (and never has) proceed according to the naive version of the scientific method we were taught in grade school - formulate hypothesis, test it, modify hypothesis, etc. It just doesn't work that way, and never has. It's more like formulate hypothesis, and then cling to it with all your might for the rest of your career. When contrary evidence becomes irrefutable, modify hypothesis just enough so that it can survive, and go on clinging.

I don't know if that's the best way to do science, but it's the way it IS done, always has been, and probably always will be. People choose to work on something for reasons that are not easy to quantify, but whatever they are, they seem to be working - every year we build faster airplanes, cheaper TVs, better computers.

So maybe we should just chill out a little and let them work on what they, the experts, the ones that do this for a living, think is best. Crazy idea, huh?
 
The problem stems from the presentation of what is said to be evidence but which is really nothing more than cunning manipulation or biased interpretation of data so that it dovetails nicely with preconceptions. It has become an annoying, recurring modus operandi with evolutionists and is a serious violation of the scientific method. Add to this the illogical premises involved and the whole thing becomes nothing more than quackery dignified with the facade of academe.

Evolution fraud in current biology textbooks
Exposed as fakes decades ago, major publishers still include them
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23532


Evolution: None Dare Call it Quackery!
http://www.expertclick.com/NewsReleaseWire/default.cfm?Action=ReleaseDetail&ID=10091
 
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I seem to be unable to find anything of actual substance in this piece, apart form the humourous juxtaposition of

Don Boys, Ph.D.

and

and a Ph.D. doesn’t add credibility to a phony

The rest is just opinion and a variety of quotes. Should evolution be called quackery because Don Boys says so? That's a curious way to do things.

Further, I'd say that it's a bit misleading to claim that Haeckel's embryo pictures are a pillar of evolutionary theory.
 
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What does the theory have to do with LQG and the polyverse? Anyway, the law of conservation points to an eternal universe.The Big Bang was not a real origination of the Universe but a recombination thereof. What would Smolin say about all this?
 
Add to this the illogical premises involved and the whole thing becomes nothing more than quackery dignified with the facade of academe.

As you are clearly expert in the relevant fields, I bow to your wizdom.

I love the way you wiz up the wall.
 
The problem stems from the presentation of what is said to be evidence but which is really nothing more than cunning manipulation or biased interpretation of data so that it dovetails nicely with preconceptions.
Huh?

I take it that layer after layer of seashells that make a nice series of changing species are fabricated by magic Sky Pixie?
It has become an annoying, recurring modus operandi with evolutionists and is a serious violation of the scientific method.
Nice arms waving, no substance.
Add to this the illogical premises involved and the whole thing becomes nothing more than quackery dignified with the facade of academe.

Maybe you should work for FOX News.
Evolution fraud in current biology textbooks
Exposed as fakes decades ago, major publishers still include them
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23532


Evolution: None Dare Call it Quackery!
http://www.expertclick.com/NewsReleaseWire/default.cfm?Action=ReleaseDetail&ID=10091
 
Uh, the thing about the embyros is old hat. If some people actualy read about current theory they would now that this is a bogus red herring. Text books are often written by state committees, I wonder how scintific that is?

Um text books have a lot of errors in general.

Don Boys supports Natural Biotics
http://www.lifescienceproducts.com/main
 
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Uh, the thing about the embyros is old hat. If some people actualy read about current theory they would now that this is a bogus red herring. Text books are often written by state committees, I wonder how scintific that is?

Um text books have a lot of errors in general.

Don Boys supports Natural Biotics
http://www.lifescienceproducts.com/main


Not very scientific and very damaging to the objectivity of future adults.
 
The problem stems from the presentation of what is said to be evidence but which is really nothing more than cunning manipulation or biased interpretation of data so that it dovetails nicely with preconceptions. It has become an annoying, recurring modus operandi with evolutionists and is a serious violation of the scientific method. Add to this the illogical premises involved and the whole thing becomes nothing more than quackery dignified with the facade of academe.

Evolution fraud in current biology textbooks
Exposed as fakes decades ago, major publishers still include them
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23532


Evolution: None Dare Call it Quackery!
http://www.expertclick.com/NewsReleaseWire/default.cfm?Action=ReleaseDetail&ID=10091

:rolleyes:
 
Huh?

I take it that layer after layer of seashells that make a nice series of changing species are fabricated by magic Sky Pixie? Nice arms waving, no substance.

Obviously you have been thoroughly duped!

The geological record isn't as neatly sequential as you imagine it to be. In fact, it sometimes blatantly contradicts the neat layer by layer evolutionary requirements. When that happens, of course, then evidence is either ignored, or shelved away as a fluke since it doesn't fit in with the preconception. No intermediary forms are present for example and these claimed to be intermediary are suspect and highly questionable examples.

But even if it were as you describe, which it isn't, it still wouldn't prove evolution. Why? Well, because temporal priority and geographical propinquity or sequence of appearance do not in themselves constitute evidence of causation. Actually, that's a very basic logical fallacy called "post hoc propter hoc" which renders conclusions reached by using it as totally fallacious and makes the one using it susceptible to being considered dishonest.
Especially so when the person employing it is cognizant of it but enthusiastically and cunningly plows ahead anyway.

In view of this, the conclusions reached can only be viewed merely assumptions by objective evaluators and those who adhere strictly to the exigencies of the scientific method. Which, BTW, requires that such claims be proven via repeatable demonstrations or
experiments to prove such things are true. Where are they? There are none which makes the claims unscientific via default. Abiogenesis, for example, its very foundation has never been demonstrated in his way. In short, the very foundation on which your precious idea is based lacks basic scientific methodology support.


None of the following ever has:

1. Matter comes from nothing.
2. Non-living material can spontaneously become alive.
3. Species can change from one to another.
4. Explosions produce order.

Especially numbers two and three.

Maybe you should work for FOX News.

Really? How quaint of you to suggest that. A bit irrelevant to the subject though.

BTW

I am not against skepticism. In fact, I am applying it to your evolution idea. Neither do I believe in believing things simply because Joe Moe over there says so and because he has a Ph.D..
No, instead I believe in holding that Ph.D. to the requirements of his own profession-and if he violates those requirements then his statements are worthless regardless of his educational credentials. But this seems to be symptomatic of people who believe in these outlandish claims. Flash a Ph.D. in their direction and they believe it regardless of the lack of TRUE scientific evidence. A very sad situation indeed!

Ironically, these are the very gullibles who vehemently reject anything which is shown to contradict their ideas because a Joe Moe --um is saying it. Weird! Since that Joe Moe might very well be more true to the scientific method than the Joe Moes they place their blind faith in. Funny in a way. LOL

Actually, it constitutes fallacious reasdoning since an argument must be evaluated on its content and not on who is putting it forth. Attacking the source instead of the argument's merit might very well be taken as evidence of rebuttal insufficiency. : )

Also, my apologies to those whom I might seem to b ignoring.
I am only able to cover so much ground. But I'll try to respond to each worthy objection as I go along. : )
 
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Obviously you have been thoroughly duped!

Obviously someone has.

(1) There are no fossils out of place in the geological record. If there were any, common descent would be under question. It isn't. Even that "mind-numbingly" special Behe accepts it.

(2) Every fossil found to date is intermediary. ALL of them. Every single one.

(3) Evolution is a scientific theory. Scientific theories cannot be proven. So when you say that some twaddle or other doesn't prove evolution, you would be dead right. But the fact that evolution has occurred is not under question by the likes of Behe and Dembski. They just think that the mechanism is "special". (Of course, it's hard to tell when they are lying, unless under oath.)

(4) The "post hoc propter hoc" argument that you are attempting to expound is hamstrung by the fact that the liar that wrote it, and who you seem to be ripping off, didn't understand what he was rambling on about either.

(5) Again you claim to understand the scientific method, and you claim that it tries to prove things to be true. However, one of those claims has to be false. Either you don't understand what you are talking about and are mistaken, or you do understand and are lying. You choose.

(6) Abiogenesis is a different subject from evolution. Have you read any of the research on it? Thought not.

(7) And what about this nonsense:


1. Matter comes from nothing.
2. Non-living material can spontaneously become alive.
3. Species can change from one to another.
4. Explosions produce order.

You claim that you don't need a PhD to understand this stuff.

Honestly, rooky, why don't you just tell us the truth:-

You don't even think that you need to understand this stuff, to understand this stuff


...and you think that is a tenable position.
 
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Abiogenesis, for example, its very foundation has never been demonstrated in his way. In short, the very foundation on which your precious idea is based lacks basic scientific methodology support.


None of the following ever has:

1. Matter comes from nothing.
2. Non-living material can spontaneously become alive.
3. Species can change from one to another.
4. Explosions produce order.

Especially numbers two and three.

Evolutionary theory does not attempt to deal with origins or the universe nor origins of live. It assumes a common ancestral life form, and goes from there. For all evolutionary theory cares, aliens could have created the first cell and gotten it going, and then variation and selection pressure take over from there. So, out of the 4 options above, the only item that is relevant to evolutionary theory is 3.

You are simply wrong that speciation has not been observed, unless you are using a non-scientific definition of species. Talkorigins has a list of several specific examples of speciation:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

As for 1, I have no idea where you got the idea of matter coming from "nothing". There is no scientific theory that says matter came from "nothing". The Big Bang theory presupposes some fundamental particles and energy, not "nothing".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

As for 2, abiogenesis has not been directly observed, but what has been observed is:

1) amino acids and nucleic acids spontaneously generated from common elements of hydrogen, methane, ammonia and water vapor (Miller experiment)
2) subsequent experiments showed that ALL major organic compounds can be synthesized under similar conditions
3) hot clay, abundant on the early earth, has been shown to produce polypeptides and chains of nucleic acids spontaneously
4) laboratory experiments have created cell-like structures called protobionts that contain enzymes and perform basic chemistry typical of living systems
5) Coacervates are protobionts that self-assemble from a solution of polypeptides, nucleic acids, and polysaccharides under certain conditions. When enzymes are added, they are taken inside the coacervate and function normally

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/C/coacervate.html

So, while it is true that no complete cell has been shown to self-create from chemical reactions alone, MANY of the precursors for a primitive cell HAVE been shown to spontaneously arise from basic chemical reactions under the right conditions, and this is an area of active research.

As for 4, I have no idea what you are talking about. The Big Bang was not an "explosion", it was a rapid expansion of space-time, matter precursors and energy. Calling it an "explosion" is a misunderstanding of Big Bang theory, just like saying matter came from "nothing". The use of the term "bang" is metaphorical.

The real question is can order come from non-order given basic materials and a natural process. The answer is clearly yes, the simplest example is crystals, which form spontaneously from basic chemical materials using natural processes, under certain conditions. Crystals are clearly "ordered", and the process by which they form is clearly natural, so the answer is yes, order can come from non-order, the rest is just details of the processes, energy and precursors.


Also, my apologies to those whom I might seem to b ignoring.
I am only able to cover so much ground. But I'll try to respond to each worthy objection as I go along. : )

Take your time. BTW, I'd be interested to hear your explanation of human chromosome 2 and why it is not very strong evidence of a common ancestor between apes and humans.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

Cheers.
 
Not very scientific and very damaging to the objectivity of future adults.


Not really, look at all the foolishness that is out there, Milton Friedman and the 'free markets lead to democracy' meme, so you find one text book that has an error that the leading scientists in the field of natural selection don't happen to agree on. Text books are frequently full of errors, that does not mean that the theory of natural selection through inherited traits is without merit.

What is your beef?

Is it that there is error in a text book?

Or that you don't like the theory of evolution?
 
Obviously you have been thoroughly duped!

The geological record isn't as neatly sequential as you imagine it to be.
Yeah, so, that is well know to geologists and those who study sea shells and the shells of plankton.

What planet are you from? You are making up an arbitrary standard that doesn't exist. the strata are what they are, they are not continuous at any location. And in fact the suggested theory of punctuated equilibria would say that there would be discontinuities in the morphologies of evolving species.
In fact, it sometimes blatantly contradicts the neat layer by layer evolutionary requirements.
Who says that is a requirement?
 
Please explain how black holes, which:

1) are well understood mathematically
2) an absolute prediction of relativity theory (which is incredibly solid) and
3) have actually been observed

is a "gnome"?

Gladly. Let's take those claims in reverse order.

3) Black hole have not been "observed". They have only been *inferred* ... just like dark matter has been inferred. Mainstream astrophysicists, ignoring the explanations offered by electromagnetism, rely on the notion of black holes to explain certain observed motions, jets, and the supposed energy release from quasars. But these observations can be explained in other ways that are a lot less fantastical.

Now I already noted the existence of observations that contradict the claim that all quasars are distant objects. For example, in that case I cited, a quasar is supposed to be 93 times farther away than the galaxy according to Big Bang's redshift equates to distance assumption. Yet the observations suggest (even to some mainstream astronomers) that the quasar is on this side of the galaxy. All we get from Big Bang cosmologists is silence.

Now the energy release from quasars, if they are as remote as Big Bang claims, can supposedly only be explained by black holes. If they aren't as remote, we don't need black holes to explain the energy release. Indeed, in the source I linked above from Dr Peratt, computer simulations using known and validated physics show that the energy output of the plasmoid at the center of a proto-galaxy, if formed by not just gravity but electromagnetic effects on plasmas, is consistent with observations from such objects as Cygnus A. Peratt and Lerner would argue that quasars are z-pinches which not only can release the immense amounts of energy over the durations observed but also synchrotron radiation which is the form the energy in the jets from quasars takes.

To explain the jets using black holes, mainstream astrophysicists have had to invent yet more gnomes ... magnetic reconnection and tangled magnetic field lines. My challenge stands ... show us the laboratory experiments that prove the reality of magnetic reconnection of the type envisioned in black holes or even in solar flares and the corona of our sun. And field lines can't tangle because there is no such "thing" as a field line. A field line a notional concept, not a real entity. Magnetic fields are a continuum.

Hannes Alfven, a Nobel prize winner in physics in this field and the father of MagnetoHydroDynamics, said unequivocally that magnetic reconnection as envisioned by astrophysicists is pure woo. He said "we have witnessed at the same time an enormously voluminous formalism building up based on this obviously erroneous concept. Indeed, we have been burdened with a gigantic pseudoscience which penetrates large parts of cosmic plasma physics."

Plasma experts outside the astrophysics (and unfortunately now the fusion) community, such as Dr Peratt, as well as electrical engineers, such as Donald Scott, will tell you that the notion of magnetic field lines opening up, merging or recombining is fallacious. As Donald Scott noted in his recent book, "The Electric Sky", those propositions "result from an error (violation of Maxwell's equations) compounded by another error (the mistaken belief that the lines are real 3D entities in the first place)."

Donald Scott also wrote this in a peer reviewed article published in the IEEE Transactions On Plasma Science: http://members.cox.net/dascott3/35tps04-scott-pt2.pdf, "Real Properties of Electromagnetic Fields and Plasma in the Cosmos, Donald Scott, October 2006". "It is clear that a rigorous understanding of the real physical properties of magnetic fields in plasmas is crucial for astrophysicists and cosmologists. Incorrect pronouncements about the properties of magnetic fields and currents in plasma will be counterproductive if these conceptual errors are propagated into publications and then used as the basis of new investigations. There are some popular misconceptions. 1) Magnetic “lines of force” really exist as extant entities in 3-D space and are involved in cosmic mechanisms when they move. 2) Magnetic fields can be open ended and can release energy by “merging” or “reconnecting.” 3) Behavior of magnetic fields can be explained without any reference to the currents that produce them. 4) Cosmic plasma is infinitely conductive, so magnetic fields are “frozen into” it. ... snip ... Maxwell showed that magnetic fields are the inseparable handmaidens of electric currents and vice versa. This is as true in the cosmos as it is here on Earth. Those investigators who, for whatever reason, have not been exposed to the now well-known properties of real plasmas and electromagnetic field theory must refrain from inventing “new” mechanisms in efforts to support current-free cosmic models. “New science” should not be invoked until all of what is now known about electromagnetic fields and electric currents in space plasma has been considered. Pronouncements that are in contradiction to Maxwell’s equations ought to be openly challenged by responsible scientists and engineers."

And even with the magnetic reconnection and tangled field line gnomes to play with, mainstream astrophysicists are still struggling to explain the jets.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/blackhole_jets_040817.html from August of 2004 claims that "jets are the result of some really twisted physics ... snip ... spinning of the black hole drags space and time, which twists magnetic field lines and generates a coiled force." Then later it states "However, the specifics are controversial." and "The field is still very much up in the air".

I'll say. ;)

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2007/1947654.htm "Oldest black hole ever found, 11 June 2007, An ongoing survey of the heavens has spotted the most distant, and therefore earliest, giant black hole in the universe. The object, a quasar given the catchy name CFHQS J2329-0301 ... snip ... is about 13 billion light-years away, say the scientists. ... snip ... So how can there be any light from a black hole about 500 million times the mass of the Sun? It comes from the superheated material falling into it. ... snip ... The problem is, 13 billion years ago is just 700 million years after the Big Bang. That's generally thought to be a time before galaxies were constructed, says team member Dr John Hutchings of the National Research Council Canada's Herzberg Institute of Astrophysics. It could be that galaxies formed earlier than expected or something else entirely is going on. It's a puzzle, says Hutchings."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21348916/ "Monster black hole busts theory, Oct. 17, 2007, A stellar black hole much more massive than theory predicts is possible has astronomers puzzled. ... snip ... "We're having trouble using standard theories to explain this system because it is so massive," study team member Jerome Orosz of the University of California, San Diego, told SPACE.com. ... snip ... The team estimates the black hole's progenitor must have shed gas at a rate about 10 times less than models predicted before it exploded."

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Black_Hole_Record_Shattered_999.html "Black Hole Record Shattered ... snip ... Oct 31, 2007 ... snip ... On October 17, astronomers using NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory announced that a black hole in the galaxy M33 contains 16 times the mass of the Sun. For two weeks it was the heaviest known black hole of its type. ... snip ... But in a paper to be published on November 1, another team is announcing a stellar-mass black hole with at least 24 times the mass of the Sun, and perhaps as many as 33 solar masses. ... snip ... The discovery raises the obvious question of how this black hole got to be so big. Calculations performed on computers suggest that even the most massive stars in our Milky Way Galaxy leave behind black holes with no more than 15 or 20 solar masses."

By they way ... the mass of black holes is also INFERRED. And there's more bad news.

http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn9620-mysterious-quasar-casts-doubt-on-black-holes.html "Mysterious quasar casts doubt on black holes, 27 July 2006 ... snip ... Rudolph Schild of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Massachusetts, US, led a team that observed a quasar situated 9 billion light years from Earth. ... snip ... "The structure of the quasar is not at all what had been theorised," Schild told New Scientist. ... snip ... "I believe this is the first evidence that the whole black hole paradigm is incorrect," says Darryl Leiter of the Marwood Astrophysics Research Center in Charottesville, Virginia, US, who co-authored the study.'

http://www.physorg.com/news73057202.html "Astronomer Rudy Schild of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics (CfA) and his colleagues studied the quasar known as Q0957+561 ...snip ... Most would consider that object to be a 'black hole,' but ... snip ... 'We don't call this object a black hole because we have found evidence that it contains an internally anchored magnetic field that penetrates right through the surface of the collapsed central object, and that interacts with the quasar environment' ... snip ... "Our finding challenges the accepted view of black holes," said Leiter. "We've even proposed a new name for them - Magnetospheric Eternally Collapsing Objects, or MECOs".

You see what they did in the above case? They invented yet another gnome, MECOs, which sadly still rely on bogus magnetic field physics (anchored fields and tangled, reconnecting magnetic field lines) to explain the jets. Not one of them appears to have heard of double layers, plasmoids (z-pinches) and the research of Peratt and Lerner. Or understood what Alfven, Falthammar, and Heikkila published years ago.

Mainstream astrophysicist aren't performing science anymore ... they are inventing gnomes to explain what they otherwise can't explain in their universe where electromagnetic effects on plasmas are virtually ignored. I think Donald Scott summed their methods up best: "Fabricated Ad hoc Inventions Repeatedly Invoked in Efforts to Defend Untenable Scientific Theories (FAIRIE DUST)". All because they refuse to understand electromagnetic effects on plasma or accept the fact that space is filled with plasma, electric currents, and electric/magnetic fields created by those currents.

In most cases, the phenomena they've identified as evidence of tangled fields and magnetic reconnection is actually evidence of double layers, z-pinches and Birkeland currents ... phenomena that occur on earth, can be reproduced in labs, and modeled in computers using the known laws of physics. No gnomes needed. Black holes are NOT needed to explain the energy level or jets from quasars. Magnetic reconnection as envisioned by mainstream astrophysicists doesn't exist so it can't explain the jets from black holes (or a host of other space phenomena that mainstream astrophysicists now call on it to explain). But Peratt and the electric universe community can ... with physics they can actually demonstrate here on earth.

2) Next, let's consider your the assertion that black holes are "an absolute prediction of relativity theory (which is incredibly solid)".

I'm not saying black holes don't exist ... somewhere ... sometimes. Just that they aren't needed to explain the phenomena they are alleged to explain in countless objects. And if you need to invent even more gnomes (like magnetic reconnection) to use them to explain phenomena, and those gnomes don't exist, then you have an even bigger problem.

1) Finally, you say that black holes "are well understood mathematically".

Well perhaps you just stated the underlying problem without realizing it. ;)

Here's some good reading to that effect ...

http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=9kpgc4td

http://www.rense.com/general78/rdod.htm

***********

I found this of interest ... mainstream astrophysicists yet again calling on black holes and bogus tangled/twisted/reconnected magnetic field line gnomes:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/06/020604073033.htm "June 4, 2002, Black Hole Dynamo May Be Cosmos' Ultimate Electricity Generator ... snip ... June 3, 2002 - Researchers at the U.S. Department of Energy's Los Alamos National Laboratory believe that magnetic field lines extending a few million light years from galaxies into space may be the result of incredibly efficient energy-producing dynamos within black holes that are somewhat analogous to an electric motor. ... snip ... In other words, the black hole energy is being efficiently converted into magnetic fields. The mechanism is not yet fully understood, but Kronberg and his colleagues believe a black hole accretion disk could be acting similarly to an electric motor."

What is ironic is that Hannes Alfven proposed an electric motor model, sans the black hole because it wasn't needed, nearly 30 years ago (see http://www.electric-cosmos.org/galaxies.htm ).

The Science Daily source continues:

"The Los Alamos researchers are calculating methods by which enormous amounts of expelled magnetic energy are converted into heat - manifested in the form of a relativistic gas of cosmic rays that create radio energy that can be detected by radio telescopes such as the Very Large Array. Although the exact mechanism is still a mystery, the Los Alamos researchers believe that a sudden reconnection or fusing of the magnetic field lines creates and accelerates the cosmic rays. The researchers still don't understand why this fast magnetic field reconnection occurs. "

That's because it doesn't. Hannes Alfven, a Nobel Prize winner in the field ... the man who invented magnetohydrodynamics ... proved years ago that "magnetic field reconnection" as envisioned by astrophysicists is a fairy tale. He said anyone claiming it should be ignored ... dismissed ... because they don't know what they are talking about.
 
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In view of this, the conclusions reached can only be viewed merely assumptions by objective evaluators and those who adhere strictly to the exigencies of the scientific method. Which, BTW, requires that such claims be proven via repeatable demonstrations or
experiments to prove such things are true. Where are they? There are none which makes the claims unscientific via default. Abiogenesis, for example, its very foundation has never been demonstrated in his way. In short, the very foundation on which your precious idea is based lacks basic scientific methodology support.
That is cute assembly of words and it ignore the fact that often all people can do is look at the theory which best matches the observation. The theory of natural selection is falsifiable, it makes predictions which the evidence could contradict.

Are you sure you understand science? Astrophysics is in the same boat, yet it makes predictions that can be falsified.

Where is your beef?
None of the following ever has:

1. Matter comes from nothing.
Hmm, that is funny and probably a misstatement of something. the Big band event theory does not require that the universe came from nothing. It comes from something/nothing which is unknowable and currently beyond anything other than speculation.

Virtual particles do no come from nothing, they come from the vacuum energy.
2. Non-living material can spontaneously become alive.
That is not a claim either.
1. Do catalysts exist?
2. Is it possible to have an catalyst that catalyses anothere catalyst?
3. Is it possible to have a set of catalysts that act to help support each other?
4. Is it possible that such a set could be in a tide pool or in a pond?
5. Is it possible it could be contained in a lipid layer?
6. What are the odds, how many players are there over how much time?

Life is not theorised to have developed in a flash.
3. Species can change from one to another.
That is a matter of debate, what is a species, how do you define it?
4. Explosions produce order.
Who made that claim?
Especially numbers two and three.



Really? How quaint of you to suggest that. A bit irrelevant to the subject though.

BTW

I am not against skepticism. In fact, I am applying it to your evolution idea. Neither do I believe in believing things simply because Joe Moe over there says so and because he has a Ph.D..
No, instead I believe in holding that Ph.D. to the requirements of his own profession-and if he violates those requirements then his statements are worthless regardless of his educational credentials. But this seems to be symptomatic of people who believe in these outlandish claims. Flash a Ph.D. in their direction and they believe it regardless of the lack of TRUE scientific evidence. A very sad situation indeed!

Ironically, these are the very gullibles who vehemently reject anything which is shown to contradict their ideas because a Joe Moe --um is saying it. Weird! Since that Joe Moe might very well be more true to the scientific method than the Joe Moes they place their blind faith in. Funny in a way. LOL

Actually, it constitutes fallacious reasdoning since an argument must be evaluated on its content and not on who is putting it forth. Attacking the source instead of the argument's merit might very well be taken as evidence of rebuttal insufficiency. : )

Also, my apologies to those whom I might seem to b ignoring.
I am only able to cover so much ground. But I'll try to respond to each worthy objection as I go along. : )
 
Gladly. Let's take those claims in reverse order.

3) Black hole have not been "observed". They have only been *inferred* ... just like dark matter has been inferred. Mainstream astrophysicists, ignoring the explanations offered by electromagnetism, rely on the notion of black holes to explain certain observed motions, jets, and the supposed energy release from quasars. But these observations can be explained in other ways that are a lot less fantastical.

Ok, that is true, but it is also true that much of physics can only be inferred, particularly in particle physics. You have posted copious links, which I will look at. However, knowing how the scientific community operates, I am always suspicious when an idea has been around for decades, and is not accepted. Despite initial resistance, if a theory has the goods and agrees with experiment better than the next, it will win out. If this theory has legs, I wonder why there are only a handful of supporters. That seems very strange to me right off the bat.

Mainstream astrophysicist aren't performing science anymore ... they are inventing gnomes to explain what they otherwise can't explain in their universe where electromagnetic effects on plasmas are virtually ignored. I think Donald Scott summed their methods up best: "Fabricated Ad hoc Inventions Repeatedly Invoked in Efforts to Defend Untenable Scientific Theories (FAIRIE DUST)". All because they refuse to understand electromagnetic effects on plasma or accept the fact that space is filled with plasma, electric currents, and electric/magnetic fields created by those currents.

Another red flag. If a theory has the goods, it is not necessary to resort to name calling and ad-hom, that is a classic psuedoscience tactic. If this theory is so much better and can explain all the data, why is no one else accepting it. It is not enough to just make a broad claim that they "aren't doing science", I don't buy it. Quantum theory is about as weird as it gets, but it was nearly universally accepted in time. This theory you support has been around since the 70's and has only a handful of adherents. That has all the markings of a bad theory.

2) Next, let's consider your the assertion that black holes are "an absolute prediction of relativity theory (which is incredibly solid)".

I'm not saying black holes don't exist ... somewhere ... sometimes. Just that they aren't needed to explain the phenomena they are alleged to explain in countless objects. And if you need to invent even more gnomes (like magnetic reconnection) to use them to explain phenomena, and those gnomes don't exist, then you have an even bigger problem.

If they exist, then they are not "gnomes". Period. This sort of name calling does not give me great confidence in this theory you support. Good theories don't need this sort of childishness to convince people.

BTW, I googled "magnetic reconnection", which I will admit I had never heard of, and the very first hit was: http://mrx.pppl.gov
It looks like there are a large numbers of physicists who have experimental evidence confirming MR, contrary to your assertions that it is a "gnome".

1) Finally, you say that black holes "are well understood mathematically".

Well perhaps you just stated the underlying problem without realizing it. ;)

I am not saying that mathematics alone proves the existence of black holes, but in many cases if a phenomenon cannot be explained mathematically based on known physics models, then this is a big red flag. In any case, you admit that black holes exist, so this point is irrelevant.


Thx for the links, but I generally don't get my science from "popular" web sites, especially ones that have a big link on their page to "cures they don't want you to know about".

I said I would look at your links, and I will, but my initial observations are that this has all the classic makings of woo because:

1) Your repeated references to Hannes Alfven as a "nobel prize winner", which is simply an argument from authority. Linus Pauling won 2 nobel prizes, but later in life thought that massive doses of vitamin C would cure anything. Einstein refused to accept Quantum theory. Newton experimented with Alchemy. No lone scientist is immune to error, which is why the communal effort and the body of literature is far more important than any single person or experiment.

2) This theory has been around since the 70's and has not made any progress in convincing the scientific community. That is a huge red flag.

3) Despite your assertion and arguments from authority that magnetic reconnection is a "gnome", in a few minutes searching I found organizations actively conducting experiments and publishing papers in peer reviewed journals that demonstrate its existence. That does not give me much confidence in your other assertions.

As I said, I will look at your links, but what you have presented basically amounts to arguments from an authority, backed by a small group of "mavericks", supported by extravagant claims, and evidenced by name calling and claims that the entire astrophysical community is suffering under a grand delusion despite all the experiments they are actually performing. This looks very similar to the ID movement, just not as well funded.

I am not hopeful that this is not going to be a complete waste of my time.
 
I am not hopeful that this is not going to be a complete waste of my time.

My plasma expertise is next to nil. That is, if the layman's plasma expertise is nil, mine is just a hair above it, due to my educational background and specifically, one experiment with genuine plasma physics apparatus.

I don't know what BAC's background is, or what axe BAC has to grind, but it seems that what BAC does not know about plasma physics could fill volumes (specifically, journals on plasma and fusion physics ;) ). It's also been my (limited) experience that genuine working plasma physicists are not rabid plasma cosmologists.

Finally, and this is directed at BAC: What, exactly, do you think is going on with the education of astrophysicists, and why do you imagine they could get their degrees without having some passing knowledge of E&M? :boggled:
 
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That is cute assembly of words and it ignore the fact that often all people can do is look at the theory which best matches the observation. The theory of natural selection is falsifiable, it makes predictions which the evidence could contradict. Are you sure you understand science? Astrophysics is in the same boat, yet it makes predictions that can be falsified.

I understand the scientific method. Are you sure you do?
The not falsifiable argumernt is yours not mine.

That is not a claim either.
1. Do catalysts exist?
2. Is it possible to have an catalyst that catalyses anothere catalyst?
3. Is it possible to have a set of catalysts that act to help support each other?
4. Is it possible that such a set could be in a tide pool or in a pond?
5. Is it possible it could be contained in a lipid layer?
6. What are the odds, how many players are there over how much time? Life is not theorised to have developed in a flash.



I never said nor suggested that life came into existence in a flash or that evolutionist sugggest that it came in a flash.

As for the steps you just mentioned, I guess I choose to agree with the scientists who consider it impossible while you choose to agree with those who don't.
 
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I understand the scientific method. Are you sure you do?
The not falsifiable argumernt is yours not mine.

So how is natural selection not falsifiable?

I never said nor suggested that life came into existence in a flash or that evolutionist sugggest that it came in a flash.

As for the steps you just mentioned, I guess I choose to agree with the scientists who consider it impossible while you choose to agree with those who don't.

Except the "scientists who consider [abiogenesis] impossible" don't exist.
 
As for the steps you just mentioned, I guess I choose to agree with the scientists who consider it impossible while you choose to agree with those who don't.

In other words, you elect to believe that the probability of such an occurrence is zero.

But no reasoning is involved, just a choice of belief.

Worthless speculation in other words.

Well, gosh, I am surprised.

And the "scientists" who "consider it impossible" have Phony Doctorates is what? Spiritualism? Conjuring ghosts? Astrology?

Go on. Do tell what these "scientists" you keep referring to actually did to become "scientists" - other than forking over fifty bucks for the privilege.
 
As for the steps you just mentioned, I guess I choose to agree with the scientists who consider it impossible while you choose to agree with those who don't.

Any scientist who says anything is "impossible" is not doing science. All one is allowed to say is that under the currently understood laws of nature, there is no way for a given event to occur. That is a subtle distinction, but an important one. I would never say anything is impossible, just that it violates all known laws of science at our present understanding, and that is what anyone committed to the scientific method would say.

Also, simply choosing to agree with someone is again not science, that is just an argument from authority. The only relevant question is what is the data and what reasonable inferences can be drawn. If you say "I choose to agree with so and so" just because someone says so, that is not science.

You seem to be ignoring me, so let me post again 2 points from my previous response, first in regards to abiogenesis:

As for 2, abiogenesis has not been directly observed, but what has been observed is:

1) amino acids and nucleic acids spontaneously generated from common elements of hydrogen, methane, ammonia and water vapor (Miller experiment)
2) subsequent experiments showed that ALL major organic compounds can be synthesized under similar conditions
3) hot clay, abundant on the early earth, has been shown to produce polypeptides and chains of nucleic acids spontaneously
4) laboratory experiments have created cell-like structures called protobionts that contain enzymes and perform basic chemistry typical of living systems
5) Coacervates are protobionts that self-assemble from a solution of polypeptides, nucleic acids, and polysaccharides under certain conditions. When enzymes are added, they are taken inside the coacervate and function normally

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...oacervate.html

So, while it is true that no complete cell has been shown to self-create from chemical reactions alone, MANY of the precursors for a primitive cell HAVE been shown to spontaneously arise from basic chemical reactions under the right conditions, and this is an area of active research.

Given the progress so far, it would seem very presumptive to state categorically that some combination of coacervates, nucleic acids and chemical processes could NEVER lead to a simple cell. Of course, if one has predetermined that evidence doesn't matter it is an easy enough jump to make that it is "impossible". A jump you clearly are comfortable with.

Second: I'd be interested to hear your explanation of human chromosome 2 and why it is not very strong evidence of a common ancestor between apes and humans.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm
 
It's essentially one long rant about how more money should be given to Smolin's particular stripe of quantum gravity theory

A gross mischaracterization of the book but then you apparently skipped most of it. Here's are excerpts from several reviews of the book:

http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2006/08/lee-smolins-trouble-with-physics.html "The fourth - and in my opinion most important - part then analyzes why and how science works best, what sociological problems we face, and under which circumstances research flourishes best. It addresses the problem of groupthink in the string community, the disastrous low-risk-attitude of current funding, and the inefficiency in hiring decisions when it comes to preserving diversity. Lee points out that many of today's research strategies might have been appropriate some decades ago, but do now hinder progress. Political pressure on young as well as senior scientists has grown to become a reason for concern. He concludes in a summarizing chapter What can we do for science with a plea for open-mindedness and "intellectual freedom". Lee tells a story of a frustrating time, of waiting, but also a story of hope. It's a story told by someone who knows what he is talking about, someone who has a vision, and who doesn't get tired repeating and fighting. Fighting for science to stay scientific."

http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Physics-String-Theory-Science/dp/0618551050 " String theory—the hot topic in physics for the past 20 years—is a dead-end, says Smolin, one of the founders of Canada's Perimeter Institute of Theoretical Physics and himself a lapsed string theorist. In fact, he (and others) argue convincingly, string theory isn't even a fully formed theory—it's just a "conjecture." As Smolin reminds his readers, string theorists haven't been able to prove any of their exotic ideas, and he says there isn't much chance that they will in the foreseeable future. The discovery of "dark energy," which seems to be pushing the universe apart faster and faster, isn't explained by string theory and is proving troublesome for that theory's advocates. Smolin (The Life of the Cosmos) believes that physicists are making the mistake of searching for a theory that is "beautiful" and "elegant" instead of one that's actually backed up by experiments. He encourages physicists to investigate new alternatives and highlights several young physicists whose work he finds promising."

Of course, that sounds just like the situation now facing Big Bang.

And by the way, how many books have you written that received a 4.5 out of 5 stars from 84 customer reviews???

Here's some more favorable reviews (I'm linking them in the order they came up when I googled). They show, by the way, that you didn't really read or try to understand Smolin's book.

http://realityconditions.blogspot.com/2006/12/book-review-lee-smolin-trouble-with.html

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/01/06/053331.php

http://www.powells.com/review/2006_10_28.html

And I could go on and on and on.

Tell you what ... why don't you list some reviews that didn't like the book. Written by someone other than a string theorist. LOL!
 
I am not convinced either that string thory has proven itself, but it is alot closer then the electric universe. At the the moment we do not have anyway of detecting the strings directly. Also BAC book reviews do not prove your point neither do pretty pictures.
 
I understand the scientific method. Are you sure you do?
The not falsifiable argumernt is yours not mine.





I never said nor suggested that life came into existence in a flash or that evolutionist sugggest that it came in a flash.

Your own words.
Non-living material can spontaneously become alive.

As though that was a claim you were disputing.
As for the steps you just mentioned, I guess I choose to agree with the scientists who consider it impossible while you choose to agree with those who don't.

Fair enough , who says that abiogenesis is not possible?
 

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