Question for Heiwa

Heiwa said:
Are you sure this is the South wall? Compare figure 8-44 (also South wall at 9.19 hrs am) in previous message. They do not look the same. Fires are at different areas, which is good. The fires moved around and were short lived = not lot of influence on structure. Look eg at floor 95/column 351 left side.

OK - the latest NYPD picture at 10.22 hrs - one hour later - is 'digitally enhanced',etc. I doubt very much that 'inward bowing' at floor 98/column 321 is 39 inch = 1 meter!!

Doubt? No, the 'inward bowing' figures are absolute nonsense.

The person - NYPD? - doing this fakery knows nothing about steel structures + bolted floors of a wall opposite the real damage (by the plane).

Plenty of false info - copyright of course + All rights reserved - floating around.
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"I doubt" is your whole statement and your whole argument.

Figures can't lie but liars can figure.
 
tsig said:
Your whole comment is false info.

"I doubt" is your whole statement and your whole argument.

Figures can't lie but liars can figure.
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I do no doubt. 1 meter inward bowing is nonsense. Maybe I should ask Nist about it so then can add to their FAQs?
 
funk de fino said:
You really didnt need to confirm your delusional stance to me

It is not the NYFD, and you are lying about what you think they could have done. Your pathetic claims of fakery have you stuck on as a troll and no better than any of the loose change teenager morons

I can handle the delusional stuff but not dishonesty. If you look at those pictures and do not see huge fires then you are not a well person.
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Why do your waste your time? Getting paid for every entry?
 
Heiwa said:
I do no doubt. 1 meter inward bowing is nonsense. Maybe I should ask Nist about it so then can add to their FAQs?
Click to expand...

I see you are a True Believer whose opinions trump reality.

No point in asking questions if you will not listen to the answers.

Whatever floats your boat.
 
Heiwa said:
Are you sure this is the South wall? Compare figure 8-44 (also South wall at 9.19 hrs am) in previous message. They do not look the same. Fires are at different areas, which is good. The fires moved around and were short lived = not lot of influence on structure. Look eg at floor 95/column 351 left side.
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:dl:

Heiwa, you numbskull: that's why I was glad you agreed that the big photo was authentic. The other is a detail of the same photo! See the blue shaded area? It's enhanced so we can better see the fire. Don't believe me? Lean real close to the big photo: same bowing, same floors, same columns. You do realize that people are reading this who know your real name, don't you? Are you proud of this insanity?

Okay, now that you fell for that trap, please tell us why you didn't comment on the video I posted? I made it for you, Anders. Here it is again. Notice that the roof does not fall before impact area, as you had claimed it did.



Oh, and before you claim that the roof paused in mid-collapse and I chose to start the video there, here's the long version, shot by Etienne Sauret: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2873871255585611926#6m54s

Can't wait for your comments!
 
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Gravy said:
:dl:

Heiwa, you numbskull: that's why I was glad you agreed that the big photo was authentic. The other is a detail of the same photo!
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They are not photos but excerpts of videos taken at 1 hr interval and then enhanced (sic) a little. I caught you. They even admit that the video photos are enhanced.

Enhance = add to value and attraction, etc. !! Joseph Goebbels style.

You are in bad company!
 
Heiwa said:
They are not photos but excerpts of videos taken at 1 hr interval and then enhanced (sic) a little. I caught you. They even admit that the video photos are enhanced.

Enhance = add to value and attraction, etc. !! Joseph Goebbels style.

You are in bad company!
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We have a Godwin!!
 
Heiwa said:
?? So they obviously thought they could handle it. Obvious!
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So if a fireman says the fires are small you will believe but if a fireman says the towers are bowing you will not believe.

Your other name Janus?
 
Miragememories said:
People will allow themselves, unwittingly or otherwise, to perform in any puppet show if they strongly believe in it's particular cause.

Some people see the hard choices ahead and choose to support the status quo and say "tough luck for those without the military might to challenge us."

The real patriots are those who refuse to be selfish puppets and view themselves as citizens of the whole world.

MM
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You consider yourself a patriot? Cowardice and ignorance are patriotic?

Amazing!
 
Heiwa said:
?? So they obviously thought they could handle it. Obvious!
Click to expand...

You know, you 'truthers' display a disarming modesty at times. There's nothing obvious about your theories. You have to be truly special to come up with them.
 
Heiwa said:
I agree with NYFD - they could easily have handled the fires.
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Are you lying, or mistaken? No one in the FDNY said they could have "handled the fires" with any amount of manpower walking up the stairs.

The experience and training of these officers, relative to past large high rise fires within the city or elsewhere in the world, did not lead the officers to expect a total collapse of either structure. [Needless to say, none of those past buildings had been hit by airliners.] Based on the above understanding, the Chief Officers in this category saw the operations at the World Trade Center during the first hours as strictly an attempt to evacuate occupants from below the fire floors, rescue trapped occupants from below the fire floors, and provide medical assistance to the injured. This strategy is supported by the following statement drawn from the FDNY first-person interviews:

▪ The Chief at the Incident Command Post said that they were not going to be able to put the fire out and that they were just going to be saving people. NIST NCSTAR 1-8 p. 75

In Section 5.2 of this report, it was estimated that it would take a water flow rate of approximately 4,700 l/min (1,250 gal/min) to extinguish one-half of a floor that would be burning inside one of the WTC towers. This amounted to approximately five 63.5 mm (2.5 in) diameter hoselines using nozzles with a 28.5 mm (1.125 in) tip diameter. For a full size floor on fire in one of the WTC towers, it would take approximately twice this flow rate, 9,400 l/min (2,500 gal/min), with a total of approximately 10 hoselines to extinguish the fire. This type of operation would likely involve a minimum of 15 to 20 Engine companies that would typically be able to work for periods of between 15 to 20 minutes before they would have to be relieved. This estimate for the extinguishment of a full floor fire at the WTC is based on operations under ideal conditions where the building’s fire pumps would be supplying adequate water supplies for firefighting. If a building’s fire pumps are not functioning, the fire department must rely upon its own resources. Special high-rise pumper apparatus would have to be coupled with the building’s standpipe system to provide water supply for the upper floors. NIST NCSTAR 1-8 p. 77

"We were looking at two large bodies of fires that neither of us in our 33-year careers had ever seen anything that enormous." –FDNY Chief of Safety Albert Turi –Source

"It was the most unbelievable sight I ever saw, up until that point. I had been in some very busy units during my time in the fire department. I broke in, in Engine 46 and Ladder 27 in the South Bronx when the South Bronx was burning down. I was in Rescue 3, which was extremely busy; they covered the Bronx and Harlem. And then as a lieutenant, I was in the Lower East Side when that was burning down. As a captain, I was in Chinatown. I saw some unbelievable fires in Chinatown. What I saw pales in comparison (sic) to anything else I had seen previously." –FDNY Captain Jay Jonas –Source

Robert Jones, ACE Elevator mechanic: You could see A Tower, the outside, the columns were glowing red by that time, because that had been on fire for at least a good 25 minutes by that time. B Tower, I could see tremendous structural damage to the outside of the building. We stood on the corner across the street from the towers. Source

FDNY Assistant Chief Joseph Callan: "Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby, I made a decision that the building was no longer safe. And that was based on the conditions in the lobby, large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20 foot high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking. There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower." Source

Callan: "For me to make the decision to take our firefighters out of the building with civilians still in it, that was very tough for me, but I did that because I did not think the building was safe any longer, and that was just prior to 9:30."–Source

EMS Division Chief John Peruggia: "I was in a discussion with Mr. Rotanz and I believe it was a representative from the Department of Buildings, but I'm not sure. Some engineer type person, and several of us were huddled talking in the lobby and it was brought to my attention, it was believed that the structural damage that was suffered to the towers was quite significant and they were very confident that the building's stability was compromised and they felt that the north tower was in danger of a near imminent collapse.

I grabbed EMT Zarrillo, I advised him of that information. I told him he was to proceed immediately to the command post where Chief Ganci was located. Told him where it was across the street from number 1 World Trade Center. I told him "You see Chief Ganci and Chief Ganci only. Provide him with the information that the building integrity is severely compromised and they believe the building is in danger of imminent collapse." So, he left off in that direction."

Firefighter Mike Cancel, Ladder 10:We could feel the building starting to twist above us. I called Ladder 10 three times, Ladder 10 roof to Ladder 10. There was no answer. I said we have to evacuate, the building's coming down. Again, there was no response.Source

On the 56th floor, an architect believes the building was failing structurally:
​
[FONT=arial,sans-serif] Architect Bob Shelton had his foot in a cast; he'd broken it falling off a curb two weeks ago. He heard the explosion of the first plane hitting the north tower from his 56th-floor office in the south tower. As he made his way down the stairwell, his building came under attack as well. "You could hear the building cracking. It sounded like when you have a bunch of spaghetti, and you break it in half to boil it." Shelton knew that what he was hearing was bad. "It was structural failure," Shelton says. "Once a building like that is off center, that's it."[/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]Source [/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]

Structural Engineer Al Masetti: At some point, perhaps when I was down around the 20th floor (north tower), there was a very clear and distinct radio message: "...structural instability...." It seemed obvious to me that some lightly dressed and unencumbered fireman had reached the scene of the impact, was able to evaluate what was there, and was able to report what he saw. Source

An engineer from the Department of Buildings reported that the structural damage appeared to be immense. The stability of both buildings was compromised. In particular, the engineer was worried about how long the north tower would stand. [/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn. "102 Minutes: The Untold Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers" New York: Times Books, 2004[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Roy Bell: "They said they had stretchers and wheelchairs down there, but I just wanted to get the hell out of the building," he said. "I ran into a building engineer, who told me there was only one safe exit out and that the building wasn't stable." [/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]Source

[/FONT]William Rodriguez, who led firefighters partway up the stairwells (from an account of a speech of his): The firemen made it up to the 27th floor but were exhausted from the burden of their equipment. As William had ascended the stairwell he, as well as the firemen, had heard explosions from the 20th through the 30th floor. Chunks of the building were falling down all around them and they could literally hear the creaking in the building.Source

William Rodriguez:The stairs were cracking. The sheet rock, when I went up opening the doors, was falling on top of me and on top of the firemen constantly. And the swaying of the building made it easier for that to come off. Source

B.J.B.: Water was pouring down the stairwell, and all the while the building was creaking and cracking, and it felt like it was coming apart.Source

Erik O. Ronningen : I remember how calm and orderly the descent in the stairwells was… and how smoky… accompanied occasionally with the snapping sounds of tortured pipes and walls stressed beyond endurance. Source

Sandra Gonzales: "All the way down it felt like the ground was falling out from under you. I knew the building had been severely damaged, and all the way down you could feel that it was about to collapse." Source

​
PAPD Sergeant Quentin DeMarco: While forming teams and assembling equipment to make entries into the WTC, Captain Whitaker informed the undersigned that no one is to enter the buildings, they were structurally compromised and could collapse. A short time later I observed tower 2 collapse into West St.

FDNY Firefighter Richard Banaciski: So I was kind of looking around over there, up and down West Street and looking on Vesey and I just remember there was a police officer standing there and he just started saying, it's starting to lean, it's starting to lean. I remember looking up, looking at the second building and just seeing it starting to move. I just started running back down Vesey towards the water again to where I had come from. That's -- the second building came down there.

FDNY Lieutenant Robert Bohack: With that as soon as I said that the building [north tower] made a groan like steel twisting. I didn’t have to tell those guys twice. We just started making line for West Street or the western side, the entrance we came in.

With that we ran out the front. There was, I think, a Chief’s aide sort of as a lookout saying “come on come on come on.” we stopped at the entrance as soon as he waved us on we go. We get to him. He was maybe 50 yards ahead of us, in front of us. On West Street I get to him and he says, “look at the building, Lou. The other one collapsed and this one is collapsing.” He showed me, about 20 stories up you see crack in the building. I look, “holy ****, the other buildings gone.”

PAPD Detective Edward Rapp: While I was on the phone with Stacy at the Police Desk we all of a sudden heard metal creaking. I looked up and saw the North Tower buckling from the top. It looked like the north and west sides of the building were twisting and then separating like a banana peel.

FDNY Firefighter Fernando Camacho: What happened was that as I was standing there and getting bandaged, somebody said the tower is leaning. So me and Gorman -- he had the irons. We turned around and looked, and we could see the tower leaning. As it started to lean, it just came straight down. Now we're running again.

FDNY Chief Joseph Dunne: Another ten or 15 minutes or so later, one of my guys said to me, "listen, the north tower is making noise, we're not safe here, that building is going to come down too.”
Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002

Claiborne Johnston: "It seemed we were walking down very calm, very orderly . . . and all of a sudden you felt like the ground was falling out from under you," said Claiborne Johnston, who escaped from the 64th floor of the south tower. "You knew the structure had been altered severely, and the rest of the way down you could feel that."Source

​
Jaede Barg: The lights in the staircase went out. There were cracks in the stairwell walls with exposed pipes breaking through the plaster. The building was forcefully swaying, enough to require significant balancing. I recall the incredible sound of twisting metal with each sway of the building.–Source

When the tower started to cave, it began with a low rumble. Slowly, amid a dark cloud of smoke, the debris rained down. “My God, it’s falling,” someone shouted. Mesmerized, no one moved. Source

"From the lobby, they were directed by police through an entrance to the mall under the Trade Center. After following their convoy inside, Finegold and Borst heard the screeching, cracking sound of Two World Trade Center collapsing. The force of it hurled them to the ground. Finegold fell to his knees. Borst lost his radio and the pinky ring off his finger. Source

FDNY Firefighter Brendan Lowrey: "We started walking south to the command center when a Police Officer stopped us and said, "hold up, guys. I have helicopters --" he was on the cell phone "--on the cell phone here." And he says, "when this one comes down, it's coming right for us." Meaning coming up West Street.

NYPD Aviation Units: Minutes after the south tower collapsed at the World Trade Center, police helicopters hovered near the remaining tower to check its condition. "About 15 floors down from the top, it looks like it's glowing red," the pilot of one helicopter, Aviation 14, radioed at 10:07 a.m. "It's inevitable."

Seconds later, another pilot reported: "I don't think this has too much longer to go. I would evacuate all people within the area of that second building." Source
​

10:20 NYPD – Aviation 14 states the WTC 1 is leaning. (NYPD, McKinsey & Company) NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p. 227

Federal engineering investigators studying the destruction of the World Trade Center's twin towers on Sept. 11 said New York Police Department aviation units reported an inward bowing of the buildings' columns in the minutes before they collapsed, a signal they were about to fall.
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Hmm. Whom to believe: Heiwa, or the FDNY, the engineers, the NYPD helicopter pilot, and the witnesses in the buildings? Such a tough choice.

Heiwa, were these people lying about the conditions they faced and experienced?
 
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Heiwa said:
They are not photos but excerpts of videos taken at 1 hr interval and then enhanced (sic) a little. I caught you. They even admit that the video photos are enhanced.
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You've completely lost it. It's the same photo, taken five minutes before collapse.

Or do you think that the smoke, after making devil faces and spelling "911," rearranged itself into exactly the same pattern, swirl for swirl, that it had made "1 hr" earlier?

Come on, Heiwa: explain that.

:dl:
 
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Pardalis said:
This makes no sense whatsoever.
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Oh, sweet, innocent Pardalis! When

"The Chief at the Incident Command Post said that they were not going to be able to put the fire out and that they were just going to be saving people,"

he meant, "This is child's play! We'll quench these towers in a jiffy! What're you guys all staring at? Hustle on up those stairs and put the wet stuff on the red stuff! Chop, chop!"
 
Heiwa said:
Why do your waste your time? Getting paid for every entry?
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Just so you know that people who are smart can tell when you are sick and dishonest

The minute one of your kind has to call fake, he has already lost

Paid by who?
 
Heiwa is almost moving into Christophera territory here, concrete wall of denial.
 
Heiwa

Heiwa said:
BTW http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist.htm is quite good.
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It is telling that you are refusing to answer the technical challenges put to you in the "debunkers" thread regarding your Nist paper - which is anything but "quite good". I assume that you are running from the arguments? Just another hit and run poster, eh? Still think that steel is magically fire resistant, and all those pesky test results and building regulations are wrong? Still not understand a composite structure? Still think that WTC is comparable to a bird cage in terms of structural and fire performance.

You remain, sir, an intellectual coward.
 
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Still waiting for your comments on my "roof" video, my two "5 minutes before" photos, and all those expert witness accounts stating that the fires were larger than longtime veterans had ever seen, that they couldn't put the fires out, that the building was severely structurally damaged and was twisting, swaying, creaking and groaning, that the columns were seen to be bowed inward, that the helicopter pilots and city engineer warned of imminent collapse, and that the start of the collapse sounded like "screeching, cracking, low rumble, twisting metal," etc., NOT anything like detonations.

Do you concede that you got anything wrong?
 
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Gravy said:
Are you lying, or mistaken? No one in the FDNY said they could have "handled the fires" with any amount of manpower walking up the stairs.

The experience and training of these officers, relative to past large high rise fires within the city or elsewhere in the world, did not lead the officers to expect a total collapse of either structure. [Needless to say, none of those past buildings had been hit by airliners.] Based on the above understanding, the Chief Officers in this category saw the operations at the World Trade Center during the first hours as strictly an attempt to evacuate occupants from below the fire floors, rescue trapped occupants from below the fire floors, and provide medical assistance to the injured. This strategy is supported by the following statement drawn from the FDNY first-person interviews:

▪ The Chief at the Incident Command Post said that they were not going to be able to put the fire out and that they were just going to be saving people. NIST NCSTAR 1-8 p. 75

In Section 5.2 of this report, it was estimated that it would take a water flow rate of approximately 4,700 l/min (1,250 gal/min) to extinguish one-half of a floor that would be burning inside one of the WTC towers. This amounted to approximately five 63.5 mm (2.5 in) diameter hoselines using nozzles with a 28.5 mm (1.125 in) tip diameter. For a full size floor on fire in one of the WTC towers, it would take approximately twice this flow rate, 9,400 l/min (2,500 gal/min), with a total of approximately 10 hoselines to extinguish the fire. This type of operation would likely involve a minimum of 15 to 20 Engine companies that would typically be able to work for periods of between 15 to 20 minutes before they would have to be relieved. This estimate for the extinguishment of a full floor fire at the WTC is based on operations under ideal conditions where the building’s fire pumps would be supplying adequate water supplies for firefighting. If a building’s fire pumps are not functioning, the fire department must rely upon its own resources. Special high-rise pumper apparatus would have to be coupled with the building’s standpipe system to provide water supply for the upper floors. NIST NCSTAR 1-8 p. 77

"We were looking at two large bodies of fires that neither of us in our 33-year careers had ever seen anything that enormous." –FDNY Chief of Safety Albert Turi –Source

"It was the most unbelievable sight I ever saw, up until that point. I had been in some very busy units during my time in the fire department. I broke in, in Engine 46 and Ladder 27 in the South Bronx when the South Bronx was burning down. I was in Rescue 3, which was extremely busy; they covered the Bronx and Harlem. And then as a lieutenant, I was in the Lower East Side when that was burning down. As a captain, I was in Chinatown. I saw some unbelievable fires in Chinatown. What I saw pales in comparison (sic) to anything else I had seen previously." –FDNY Captain Jay Jonas –Source

Robert Jones, ACE Elevator mechanic: You could see A Tower, the outside, the columns were glowing red by that time, because that had been on fire for at least a good 25 minutes by that time. B Tower, I could see tremendous structural damage to the outside of the building. We stood on the corner across the street from the towers. Source

FDNY Assistant Chief Joseph Callan: "Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby, I made a decision that the building was no longer safe. And that was based on the conditions in the lobby, large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20 foot high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking. There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower." Source

Callan: "For me to make the decision to take our firefighters out of the building with civilians still in it, that was very tough for me, but I did that because I did not think the building was safe any longer, and that was just prior to 9:30."–Source

EMS Division Chief John Peruggia: "I was in a discussion with Mr. Rotanz and I believe it was a representative from the Department of Buildings, but I'm not sure. Some engineer type person, and several of us were huddled talking in the lobby and it was brought to my attention, it was believed that the structural damage that was suffered to the towers was quite significant and they were very confident that the building's stability was compromised and they felt that the north tower was in danger of a near imminent collapse.

I grabbed EMT Zarrillo, I advised him of that information. I told him he was to proceed immediately to the command post where Chief Ganci was located. Told him where it was across the street from number 1 World Trade Center. I told him "You see Chief Ganci and Chief Ganci only. Provide him with the information that the building integrity is severely compromised and they believe the building is in danger of imminent collapse." So, he left off in that direction."


Firefighter Mike Cancel, Ladder 10:We could feel the building starting to twist above us. I called Ladder 10 three times, Ladder 10 roof to Ladder 10. There was no answer. I said we have to evacuate, the building's coming down. Again, there was no response.Sourcehttp://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/cancel.html ​



On the 56th floor, an architect believes the building was failing structurally:​

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Architect Bob Shelton had his foot in a cast; he'd broken it falling off a curb two weeks ago. He heard the explosion of the first plane hitting the north tower from his 56th-floor office in the south tower. As he made his way down the stairwell, his building came under attack as well. "You could hear the building cracking. It sounded like when you have a bunch of spaghetti, and you break it in half to boil it." Shelton knew that what he was hearing was bad. "It was structural failure," Shelton says. "Once a building like that is off center, that's it."[/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]Source [/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Structural Engineer Al Masetti: At some point, perhaps when I was down around the 20th floor (north tower), there was a very clear and distinct radio message: "...structural instability...." It seemed obvious to me that some lightly dressed and unencumbered fireman had reached the scene of the impact, was able to evaluate what was there, and was able to report what he saw. Source [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]An engineer from the Department of Buildings reported that the structural damage appeared to be immense. The stability of both buildings was compromised. In particular, the engineer was worried about how long the north tower would stand. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn. "102 Minutes: The Untold Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers" New York: Times Books, 2004[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Roy Bell: "They said they had stretchers and wheelchairs down there, but I just wanted to get the hell out of the building," he said. "I ran into a building engineer, who told me there was only one safe exit out and that the building wasn't stable." [/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]Source

[/FONT]William Rodriguez, who led firefighters partway up the stairwells (from an account of a speech of his): The firemen made it up to the 27th floor but were exhausted from the burden of their equipment. As William had ascended the stairwell he, as well as the firemen, had heard explosions from the 20th through the 30th floor. Chunks of the building were falling down all around them and they could literally hear the creaking in the building.Source

William Rodriguez:The stairs were cracking. The sheet rock, when I went up opening the doors, was falling on top of me and on top of the firemen constantly. And the swaying of the building made it easier for that to come off. Source


B.J.B.: Water was pouring down the stairwell, and all the while the building was creaking and cracking, and it felt like it was coming apart.Source​

Erik O. Ronningen : I remember how calm and orderly the descent in the stairwells was… and how smoky… accompanied occasionally with the snapping sounds of tortured pipes and walls stressed beyond endurance. Source​

Sandra Gonzales: "All the way down it felt like the ground was falling out from under you. I knew the building had been severely damaged, and all the way down you could feel that it was about to collapse." Source​


PAPD Sergeant Quentin DeMarco: While forming teams and assembling equipment to make entries into the WTC, Captain Whitaker informed the undersigned that no one is to enter the buildings, they were structurally compromised and could collapse. A short time later I observed tower 2 collapse into West St.

FDNY Firefighter Richard Banaciski: So I was kind of looking around over there, up and down West Street and looking on Vesey and I just remember there was a police officer standing there and he just started saying, it's starting to lean, it's starting to lean. I remember looking up, looking at the second building and just seeing it starting to move. I just started running back down Vesey towards the water again to where I had come from. That's -- the second building came down there.

FDNY Lieutenant Robert Bohack: With that as soon as I said that the building [north tower] made a groan like steel twisting. I didn’t have to tell those guys twice. We just started making line for West Street or the western side, the entrance we came in.

With that we ran out the front. There was, I think, a Chief’s aide sort of as a lookout saying “come on come on come on.” we stopped at the entrance as soon as he waved us on we go. We get to him. He was maybe 50 yards ahead of us, in front of us. On West Street I get to him and he says, “look at the building, Lou. The other one collapsed and this one is collapsing.” He showed me, about 20 stories up you see crack in the building. I look, “holy ****, the other buildings gone.”

PAPD Detective Edward Rapp: While I was on the phone with Stacy at the Police Desk we all of a sudden heard metal creaking. I looked up and saw the North Tower buckling from the top. It looked like the north and west sides of the building were twisting and then separating like a banana peel.

FDNY Firefighter Fernando Camacho: What happened was that as I was standing there and getting bandaged, somebody said the tower is leaning. So me and Gorman -- he had the irons. We turned around and looked, and we could see the tower leaning. As it started to lean, it just came straight down. Now we're running again.

FDNY Chief Joseph Dunne: Another ten or 15 minutes or so later, one of my guys said to me, "listen, the north tower is making noise, we're not safe here, that building is going to come down too.”
Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002


Claiborne Johnston: "It seemed we were walking down very calm, very orderly . . . and all of a sudden you felt like the ground was falling out from under you," said Claiborne Johnston, who escaped from the 64th floor of the south tower. "You knew the structure had been altered severely, and the rest of the way down you could feel that."Source​


Jaede Barg: The lights in the staircase went out. There were cracks in the stairwell walls with exposed pipes breaking through the plaster. The building was forcefully swaying, enough to require significant balancing. I recall the incredible sound of twisting metal with each sway of the building.–Source

When the tower started to cave, it began with a low rumble. Slowly, amid a dark cloud of smoke, the debris rained down. “My God, it’s falling,” someone shouted. Mesmerized, no one moved. Source

"From the lobby, they were directed by police through an entrance to the mall under the Trade Center. After following their convoy inside, Finegold and Borst heard the screeching, cracking sound of Two World Trade Center collapsing. The force of it hurled them to the ground. Finegold fell to his knees. Borst lost his radio and the pinky ring off his finger. Source


FDNY Firefighter Brendan Lowrey: "We started walking south to the command center when a Police Officer stopped us and said, "hold up, guys. I have helicopters --" he was on the cell phone "--on the cell phone here." And he says, "when this one comes down, it's coming right for us." Meaning coming up West Street.​

NYPD Aviation Units: Minutes after the south tower collapsed at the World Trade Center, police helicopters hovered near the remaining tower to check its condition. "About 15 floors down from the top, it looks like it's glowing red," the pilot of one helicopter, Aviation 14, radioed at 10:07 a.m. "It's inevitable."​

Seconds later, another pilot reported: "I don't think this has too much longer to go. I would evacuate all people within the area of that second building." Source​


10:20 NYPD – Aviation 14 states the WTC 1 is leaning. (NYPD, McKinsey & Company) NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p. 227

Federal engineering investigators studying the destruction of the World Trade Center's twin towers on Sept. 11 said New York Police Department aviation units reported an inward bowing of the buildings' columns in the minutes before they collapsed, a signal they were about to fall.
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Hmm. Whom to believe: Heiwa, or the FDNY, the engineers, the NYPD helicopter pilot, and the witnesses in the buildings? Such a tough choice.

Heiwa, were these people lying about the conditions they faced and experienced?
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Game, set, Gravy.
 
Heiwa said:
Not necessary - the relevant columns of WTC2 were much stronger as they were further down in the building but naturally with the same stresses as explained in my article.
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Sorry, Heiwa, it is necessary for you to provide your calculations to support your claim. You understand the towers were designed to support a static load so you must present your calculations.

You also understand that you made a huge error by claiming that both towers had masses in the top sections and now are contradicting yourself.

Where are the necessary calculations you must have done to support your assertions, Heiwa? Why are you not presenting them so we may evaluate your claims?
 
I don't think that Heiwa can substantiate any of his claims, hence his evasion.
 
Heiwa said:
I see some minor office fires at different floors above the impact...

...No concentrated fires anywhere but spread apart in different locations on different floors, mostly secondary small fires.
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Note the bolded portions. If the fires shown in the photos were minor and small, I have to wonder how big a fire would have to be before Heiwa would classify it as major or large.
 
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The "small fires" argument has been prven false sooooo many times that I seriously worry about Heiwa's ability to present any sort of compelling case here (sigh).
 
Did Heiwa actually prove the photograghs were obvious fakes or did he simply make matters worse for himself by posting inane rubbish ?

Oh wait .....................

Heiwa said:
I see some minor office fires at different floors above the impact where there originally was jet fuel and no deformations of any wall columns at all. No floors sagging. Etc.

The picture is very good! No concentrated fires anywhere but spread apart in different locations on different floors, mostly secondary small fires. Making a lot of smoke but cannot cause any risk to the structure. Evidently.

To be a real hazard, the fire must be concentrated - on one floor - attacking all the columns at the same time. Small fires here and there is no hazard. The redundancy of the structure takes care of that. Evidently.

Gravy, don't you understand that you do not understand ... and are fooled by nonsense? In cases like that I recommend a cold shower. But thank you for the picture showing me right.
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I see he made matters worse for himself.
 
stateofgrace said:
Did Heiwa actually prove the photograghs were obvious fakes or did he simply make matters worse for himself by posting inane rubbish ?

Oh wait .....................

I see he made matters worse for himself.
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Between him and Malmoesoldier, it's like shooting Swedish Fish in a barrel around here.
 
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Heiwa said:
...Not much that could burn.
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...Dude.Really?

What about rugs? Rugs burn.
Chairs? Curtains? Tables? They all burn.
Drywall? Burns.
Ceiling tiles? They also burn.
Goddamn plastic burns and gives off black smoke.

It would be easier to list the things in the Towers that couldn't burn.
 
bynmdsue said:
...Dude.Really?

What about rugs? Rugs burn.
Chairs? Curtains? Tables? They all burn.
Drywall? Burns.
Ceiling tiles? They also burn.
Goddamn plastic burns and gives off black smoke.

It would be easier to list the things in the Towers that couldn't burn.
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A few months ago I rattled off a list of chemicals that would probably be present in a typical office. I was told that, for example, lighter fluid is highly unlikely to be used in a typical office. "Twoofers" tend to forget the janitor's closet. I worked my way through college as a janitor in a office building, there are many things that are flamable and objects that could be explosive (in a fire) used on a daily basis by the janitor.
 
Heiwa said:
I see some minor office fires at different floors above the impact where there originally was jet fuel and no deformations of any wall columns at all. No floors sagging. Etc.

The picture is very good! No concentrated fires anywhere but spread apart in different locations on different floors, mostly secondary small fires. Making a lot of smoke but cannot cause any risk to the structure. Evidently.

To be a real hazard, the fire must be concentrated - on one floor - attacking all the columns at the same time. Small fires here and there is no hazard.
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Perhaps Gravy or someone here can tell me how much high rise firefighting experience Heiwa has to make these observations.
 
Hamradioguy said:
Perhaps Gravy or someone here can tell me how much high rise firefighting experience Heiwa has to make these observations.
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You could count his years of experience by counting the the fingers on your hand....if you don't have any hands.
 
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