Something new under the sun

It's on its face stupid, revealing a complete lack of understanding of the evidentiary underpinnings of our present understanding of physical laws and a pathetic contempt for those who are smart enough to comprehend that.


blah, blah, more word salad and generalizations. If you had any reason to dismiss the material being presented here we would have heard it already. Its obvious that you have none.

I posted a fair bit of information in my previous post for example, if all of this material is so amazingly wrong, how come you can't come up with any reason to dismiss it? you seem to use exclusively ad-antiquitam arguments.

If you can find a website that claims to debunnk plasma cosmology, then please post it here, it would make interesting reading. (but please dont post the small section of wikipedia that I addressed in my previous post)
 
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Mainstream studies also suggest that the universe is homogeneous on large scales without evidence of the very large scale structure required by plasma filamentation proposals.[20]

Well, i don’t know what universe the people who wrote this are living in, but it definitely is not this one. Are they seriously saying that there is not large scale filamentation observed in space?

I also found this a particularly clueless statement. The universe is unabashedly filamentary as far as our telescopes can see. And since MattusMaximus seems to put great store in a theory's predictions, it should be noted that the very earliest plasma cosmologists predicted this filamentary nature ... and the mainstream did not. In fact, the mainstream predicted just the opposite and has only been able to partially explain the observed filaments by invoking huge quantities of unobservable, ghost-like dark matter that can assume any property they happen to need, and by filling the universe we can see with "winds" that can blow this way and that in whatever manner is required at that moment. :D
 
From the referenced article just above:

physicist Robert Sanders of the University of Groningen in The Netherlands said:
It suggests that we may know less about gravity than we think we do," he says. "I think people should take it seriously.


Now, I don't want to be thought of as narcissistic or self-promoting, no sir, but I ask you to compare that with the opening sentence of my OP. Was that prophecy, or was that prophecy? *shoots cuffs, forgetting I'm sitting here in a t-shirt*


In other news, that article is very, very interesting. An attractive force that is proportional to the angle of approach to the equatorial plane? What kind of thing could that be? A great day to be a planetary astronomer. If its not a twisted gravity field, what....????
 
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Why should the field remain constant? By Gauss's law, that requires not only a charge on the sun, but a volume charge throughout the entire solar system as well. And not just any volume charge, but a particular volume charge. How can such a volume charge in space be confined, and why should it take on that specific distribution? Such basic questions are not asked, let alone answered. This is not a model, it's hand-waving. Again.


Yeah, I pointed this very flaw out back in post #9 of this thread and I never got any response to the criticism, just more posts to EU-PU woo sites.


The only motivation for the claim that the electric field is constant as a function of distance appears to be that graph showing the field in a discharge tube. But the geometry is fundamentally different: unlike the surface of a sphere at different radii, the cross-sectional area along a cylinder doesn't vary with distance, so applying Gauss's law gives you something different in that case than would exist for our sun. So it looks like the initial assertion actually comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of electricity. Not surprising, really, nor is it surprising that you didn't catch it.


Yup, if there is a net charge on the sun, as Zeuzzz and others claim, then by Gauss' Law of electrostatics the electric field should follow an inverse-square law. I've never seen anyone on this thread actually explain the causes behind the claimed electrical fields (static, btw) they keep harping upon.


Oh, and the electric force on a satellite in an electric field can come from more than just the charge on the satellite. If the field itself has a gradient (which it would for anything other than one particular volume charge distribution), then electric polarization of the satellite (which will happen because large parts of it are metal) will create a net force as well.


Not to mention other localized EM-effects, say from interactions with the magnetic fields of planets. In addition, depending upon a host of factors, these effects could cause either a positive or negative acceleration on the space probe. There are many unknowns in this kind of speculation.
 
Now, I don't want to be thought of as narcissistic or self-promoting, no sir, but I ask you to compare that with the opening sentence of my OP. Was that prophecy, or was that prophecy? *shoots cuffs, forgetting I'm sitting here in a t-shirt*
And cheers sir! *raises brew*

In other news, that article is very, very interesting. An attractive force that is proportional to the angle of approach to the equatorial plane? What kind of thing could that be? A great day to be a planetary astronomer. If its not a twisted gravity field, what....????

Yeah, this is really bizarre...
There's something strange going on here.
I'm downloading the full paper to read, this definitely has my attention.
 
I also found this a particularly clueless statement. The universe is unabashedly filamentary as far as our telescopes can see. And since MattusMaximus seems to put great store in a theory's predictions, it should be noted that the very earliest plasma cosmologists predicted this filamentary nature ... and the mainstream did not. In fact, the mainstream predicted just the opposite and has only been able to partially explain the observed filaments by invoking huge quantities of unobservable, ghost-like dark matter that can assume any property they happen to need, and by filling the universe we can see with "winds" that can blow this way and that in whatever manner is required at that moment. :D

It'd be nice if the woos could show any evidence that the filaments of which they speak are by their nature made of plasma. Such a large-scale filamentary structure does exist, but the filaments are due to the distribution of galaxy clusters, which as far as I know, don't constitute humongous chains of plasma stretching across the universe. Here's some links for more information on this...

Large-scale structure of the universe

Large-scale homogeneity

Btw, we should all ask ourselves why BeAChooser, Zeuzzz, or any other EU-PU woos here haven't bothered to explain the inherent contradictions in the arguments they make that say:

1. General relativity is a well-established and tested theory of the cosmos.

2. The big bang cosmology is a joke.

- AND NOTE -

3. GR actually predicted the BBC and also allowed for a cosmological constant (dark energy), so the two are intricately bound together. If you lose one you have to lose the other.

4. How can EU-PU woos maintain both points #1 and #2 while completely ignoring point #3?

For them to simply hand wave away (or blatantly ignore) this kind of glaring contradiction within their own arguments does not give the EU-PU woos any credibility in my book.

While I'm at it, here is a link to the mountains of evidence we have in support of big bang cosmology; note that consistency with general relativity is right there near the top...

Evidence for the Big Bang

If they were looking for a physics ally in me, they have failed miserably as I am tired of seeing them butcher our physics & cosmology knowledge so badly. I am no longer interested in talking with them. The only reason I continue to post on this thread is to point out their errors for the benefit of lurkers...

... oh, and to discuss legitimate science related to the Pioneer Anomaly ;)
 
Since you are so keen to keep bringing up that small wikipedia entry that purports to debunk plasma cosmology, thats have a look at some of the problems with it. As i said before, your best bet to see PC material is not on wikipedia, this site is far less biased.


Yeah, a plasma universe woo site (URL is plasma-universe.com) - really unbiased. Gimme a break - the woos have only posted this a crazy number of times in an attempt to get people to read their crackpot ideas (I won't stoop to call them theories).


What they fail to note that these observations are consistent with both mainstream ideas and plasma cosmology, and that is probably why they do not say how this observation actually falsifies plasma cosmology.


It's pretty tough to falsify something when no tests or experiments are ever proposed. All I've seen so far from the EU-PU woo crowd is bad physics, worse physics, contradictory arguments, hand-waving, ad-hoc assertions, and arguments from ignorance. Not interested...


I am still waiting for your source that refutes plasma cosmology, apart from wikipedia. If you cant find one, ask yourself why that is.


Folks, there's no website that falsifies my "theory" of drunken cosmic leprechauns, so that must mean it's correct! See, I can make non-testable, ad-hoc, arguments from ignorance too.

Can I get published in the Plasma Universe journals now? :)
 
Now, I don't want to be thought of as narcissistic or self-promoting, no sir, but I ask you to compare that with the opening sentence of my OP. Was that prophecy, or was that prophecy?

Good show! Don't worry about blowing your own horn. Experience shows nobody else is going to do it for you.
 
Yeah, a plasma universe woo site (URL is plasma-universe.com) - really unbiased. Gimme a break - the woos have only posted this a crazy number of times in an attempt to get people to read their crackpot ideas (I won't stoop to call them theories).
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Please don't refer to people as woos, it's insulting. I've already asked you politely before.
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It's pretty tough to falsify something when no tests or experiments are ever proposed. All I've seen so far from the EU-PU woo crowd is bad physics, worse physics, contradictory arguments, hand-waving, ad-hoc assertions, and arguments from ignorance. Not interested...
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Hannes Alfvén, who coined the phrase "Plasma Universe" (Ref) (Ref), won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1970 for his "fundamental work and discoveries in magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) with fruitful applications in different parts of plasma physic" (Ref). MHD maths is used by just about everyone who studies plasmas.

Alfvén, and pioneers such as Irving Langmuir (Nobel Prize winner) and Kristian Birkeland extensively experimented. Alfvén himself stressed the importance of an empirical based approach (Ref, full text), as did other colleagues such as Carl-Gunne Fälthammar (Ref) (Ref) and Winston H. Bostick (Ref).

The tests, experiments and predictions are all there, in peer reviewed journals including Nature, Science, Astrophysics and Space Science, Astrophysical Journal, and many many others.
 
It's pretty tough to falsify something when no tests or experiments are ever proposed. All I've seen so far from the EU-PU woo crowd is bad physics, worse physics, contradictory arguments, hand-waving, ad-hoc assertions, and arguments from ignorance.


Plasma cosmoloigts have made many predictions.

"According to some scientists and philosophers of science, a theory is or should be judged by its ability to make successful predictions. This paper examines a case from the history of recent science - the research of Hannes Alfven and his colleagues on space plasma phenomena - in order to see whether scientists actually follow this policy. Tests of five pre-dictions are considered: magnetohydrodynamic waves, field-alligned ('Birkeland') currents, critical ionization velocity and the existance of planetary rings, electrostatic double layers, and partial corotation. It is found that the success or failure of these predictions had essentially no effect on the acceptance of Alfven's theories, even though concepts such as 'Alfven waves' have become firmly entrenched in space physics. Perhaps the importance of predictions in science has been exaggerated; if a theory is not acceptable to the scientific community, it may not gain any credit from successful predictions."

Alfven also predicted double radio sources, and that most of the mass in the universe is plasma.

Kristian Birkeland predicted auroral electrojets in 1908. In 1967 Alex Dessler wrote an article arguing that Zmuda et al had indeed detected field align-currents. Alfvén subsequently credited (1986) that Dessler "discovered the currents that Birkeland had predicted" He also predicted that we would observe birkeland currents in space, which turned out true.

In 1913, Birkeland was the first to predict that plasma was ubiquitous in space. He wrote: "It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds."(Ref), which has been confirmed, as 99% of the universe is matter in a plasma state.

In 1916, Birkeland was probably the first person to successfully predict that the solar wind behaves as do all charged particles in an electric field, "From a physical point of view it is most probable that solar rays are neither exclusively negative nor positive rays, but of both kinds"; in other words, the Solar Wind consists of both negative electrons and positive ions.

Wallace Thornhill predicted the flash produced by a small electrical discharge in the deep impact excercise. He said "The electrical energy will be released before impact" and this was confirmed by NASA investigator Peter Schultz, describing the event recorded from the spacecraft: "What you see is something really surprising. First, there is a small flash, then there's a delay, then there's a big flash and the whole thing breaks loose”.

And he also said that "An abundance of water on or below the surface of the nucleus (the underlying assumption of the dirty snowball hypothesis) is unlikely.", which was also confirmed.

There are many more, Nobel prize winner Langmuir also made a couple of predictions that turned out true, as did Anthony Peratt with galaxy shapes and pinch effects in the cosmos, Gerrit L. Verschuur made predictions in the field of CIV, etc,


Can I get published in the Plasma Universe journals now? :)


your jokin right? Did you actually read any of the site? it even states what journals the work is published in.


Heres a small list of some of the plasma cosmology papers published in mainstream astronmy journals;


* Introduction to Plasma Astrophysics and Cosmology - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 3-11

* Electric space: Evolution of the plasma universe - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 244, Issue 1-2, pp. 89-103

* Advances in numerical modeling of astrophysical and space plasmas - Astrophysics and Space Science Volume 242, Numbers 1-2 / March, 1996

* How Can Spirals Persist? - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 175-186

* Advances in Numerical Modeling of Astrophysical and Space Plasmas 2 - Astrophysics and Space Science Volume 256, Numbers 1-2 / March, 1997

* Plasma and the Universe: Large Scale Dynamics, Filamentation, and Radiation - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 97-107

* Rotation Velocity and Neutral Hydrogen Distribution Dependency on Magnetic Field Strength in Spiral Galaxies - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 167-173

* Radiation Properties of Pulsar Magnetospheres: Observation, Theory, and Experiment - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 229-253

* Confirmation of radio absorption by the intergalactic medium - Astrophysics and Space Science (ISSN 0004-640X), vol. 207, no. 1, p. 17-26

* X-Ray-emitting QSOS Ejected from Arp 220 - The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 553, Issue 1, pp. L11-L13.

* A Possible Relationship between Quasars and Clusters of Galaxies - The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 549, Issue 2, pp. 802-819.

* On Quasar Distances and Lifetimes in a Local Model - The Astrophysical Journal, 567:801–810, 2002 March 10

* GALACTIC NEUTRAL HYDROGEN EMISSION PROFILE STRUCTURE - The Astronomical Journal, 118:1252È1267, 1999 September

* Filamentation of volcanic plumes on the Jovian satellite I0 - Astrophysics and Space Science (ISSN 0004-640X), vol. 144, no. 1-2,

* On the evolution of interacting, magnetized, galactic plasmas - Astrophysics and Space Science (ISSN 0004-640X), vol. 91, no. 1, March 1983

* Magnetosphere-ionosphere interactions —near-Earth manifestations of the plasma Universe - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 144, Issue 1-2, pp. 105-133

* Distances of Quasars and Quasar‐like Galaxies: Further Evidence That Quasi‐stellar Objects May Be Ejected from Active Galaxies - The Astrophysical Journal, 616:738–744, 2004



I really can't be bothered to post any more, you can see about seventy or so other papers published in mainstream astronomy journals here; http://www.soundintent.com/

Is there something wrong with journals like The Astrophysical Journal, the Journal of Astrophysics and Space Science, The IEEE Journal of Plasma Physics MattusMaximus?

Sometimes it helps to actually know about what you are arguing against :) I am still waiting for your scientific reasons to dismiss plasma cosmology material.
 
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There is a difference between describing a theory as woo, and calling the proponents woos. The latter is an ad hominem.

No it isn't. Ad hominem is a specific logical fallacy of the form:

A says X.
A also says/does/is Y.
Therefore X is wrong.

For example, "You are a woo, therefore your claims are wrong." would be an ad hominem. This is not the case here. Instead, what is being said is "Your claims are wrong, therefore you are a woo.". Not the same thing at all, and not a logical fallacy in any way.

Incidentally, there does seem to be a tendency among woos to claim that other people are engaging in logical fallacies, often ad hominem, despite clearly having no idea what the fallacies actually mean. If you'd claimed it was an insult you might have had a point, although it is incredibly mild and is more of a description than an insult. As it is, you are siply wrong.
 
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but it seems like an empirical formula has been found that describes the flyby anomaly well, though the physical explanation of the formula is still unknown.

Curiouser and curiouser, as they say.

http://space.newscientist.com/artic...ation-may-account-for-wayward-spacecraft.html

Interesting. I'm trying to think what the rotation of the earth would have to do with it. The article says that frame dragging wouldn't alter the velocity this much, and the Gravity Probe B experiment is not showing any significant deviation from general relativity yet, although it looks like they are still calibrating it. But effects of the magnitude these space craft are experiencing should be large enough to be detected by Gravity Probe B by now. So I'm thinking that this is not a gravitational effect. Gravity Probe B is in a 400 mile orbit. Perhaps this is caused by something that exists beyond low earth orbit, such as the magnetosphere. And no, I'm not an electric sun proponent or a plasma cosmologist. It's just that the spacecraft anomalies do not appear to be gravitational in nature. The fact that spacecraft that approach and exit at near equal but opposite inclinations are not affected while others are suggests a dipole effect rather than a monopole.
 
No it isn't. Ad hominem is a specific logical fallacy
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Indeed, there is also a fallacy called an "ad hominem fallacy", named from the latin phrase "ad hominem". In general terms, an ad hominem refers to "attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument" (Ref), and is indeed made as an insult.

The forum rules note (#12) "Attack the argument, not the arguer".

If you'd claimed it was an insult you might have had a point, although it is incredibly mild and is more of a description than an insult. As it is, you are siply wrong.
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The Skeptics Dictionary describes it as "a derogatory and dismissive term". No matter what the magnitude of its offensiveness, it is still offensive.
 
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Indeed, there is also a fallacy called an "ad hominem fallacy", named from the latin phrase "ad hominem". In general terms, an ad hominem refers to "attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument" (Ref), and is indeed made as an insult.

The forum rules note (#12) "Attack the argument, not the arguer".


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The Skeptics Dictionary describes it as "a derogatory and dismissive term". No matter what the magnitude of its offensiveness, it is still offensive.
I noticed that you clipped off the portion of the post that addressed this.

Do you honestly think you can pull off such a clear deception when the post in question is a mere two posts above yours?
 
I noticed that you clipped off the portion of the post that addressed this.
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Calling someone a "woo", no matter what your justification, is an insult an ad hominem however you want to look at it. Logic is no excuse.
 
Forum Rule #11: Posts must be on topic to the thread subject. On this Forum thread drift is expected but must follow from the discussion.
 
Let me address this for the benefit of Irony.
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For example, "You are a woo, therefore your claims are wrong." would be an ad hominem.
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"You are a woo" is an ad hominem.
"You are a woo, therefore your claims are wrong." is an ad hominen fallacy that incorporates an ad hominem.

"Your claims are wrong, therefore you are a woo.". Not the same thing at all, and not a logical fallacy in any way.
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"Your claims are wrong" is a perfectly fine opinion.
"..therefore you are a woo" is an ad hominem.
"Your claims are wrong, therefore you are a woo" does not necessarily follow.

I think Cuddles's claims concerning ad hominems are wrong. It doesn't make Cuddles a woo.

"Isaac Newton's claims on the occult were wrong". It doesn't make him a woo, though we may agree that his claims on the occult were woo.

"Einstein's claims on Charles Hapgood theory of "The Earth's Shifting Crust" were wrong, but it doesn't make Einstein a woo, though we may agree that his claims were woo.

And even if we think someone is a woo, we don't have to call them so.
 
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Plasma cosmoloigts have made many predictions.



Alfven also predicted double radio sources, and that most of the mass in the universe is plasma.

Kristian Birkeland predicted auroral electrojets in 1908. In 1967 Alex Dessler wrote an article arguing that Zmuda et al had indeed detected field align-currents. Alfvén subsequently credited (1986) that Dessler "discovered the currents that Birkeland had predicted" He also predicted that we would observe birkeland currents in space, which turned out true.

In 1913, Birkeland was the first to predict that plasma was ubiquitous in space. He wrote: "It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds."(Ref), which has been confirmed, as 99% of the universe is matter in a plasma state.

In 1916, Birkeland was probably the first person to successfully predict that the solar wind behaves as do all charged particles in an electric field, "From a physical point of view it is most probable that solar rays are neither exclusively negative nor positive rays, but of both kinds"; in other words, the Solar Wind consists of both negative electrons and positive ions.

Wallace Thornhill predicted the flash produced by a small electrical discharge in the deep impact excercise. He said "The electrical energy will be released before impact" and this was confirmed by NASA investigator Peter Schultz, describing the event recorded from the spacecraft: "What you see is something really surprising. First, there is a small flash, then there's a delay, then there's a big flash and the whole thing breaks loose”.

And he also said that "An abundance of water on or below the surface of the nucleus (the underlying assumption of the dirty snowball hypothesis) is unlikely.", which was also confirmed.

There are many more, Nobel prize winner Langmuir also made a couple of predictions that turned out true, as did Anthony Peratt with galaxy shapes and pinch effects in the cosmos, Gerrit L. Verschuur made predictions in the field of CIV, etc,





your jokin right? Did you actually read any of the site? it even states what journals the work is published in.


Heres a small list of some of the plasma cosmology papers published in mainstream astronmy journals;


* Introduction to Plasma Astrophysics and Cosmology - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 3-11

* Electric space: Evolution of the plasma universe - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 244, Issue 1-2, pp. 89-103

* Advances in numerical modeling of astrophysical and space plasmas - Astrophysics and Space Science Volume 242, Numbers 1-2 / March, 1996

* How Can Spirals Persist? - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 175-186

* Advances in Numerical Modeling of Astrophysical and Space Plasmas 2 - Astrophysics and Space Science Volume 256, Numbers 1-2 / March, 1997

* Plasma and the Universe: Large Scale Dynamics, Filamentation, and Radiation - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 97-107

* Rotation Velocity and Neutral Hydrogen Distribution Dependency on Magnetic Field Strength in Spiral Galaxies - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 167-173

* Radiation Properties of Pulsar Magnetospheres: Observation, Theory, and Experiment - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 229-253

* Confirmation of radio absorption by the intergalactic medium - Astrophysics and Space Science (ISSN 0004-640X), vol. 207, no. 1, p. 17-26

* X-Ray-emitting QSOS Ejected from Arp 220 - The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 553, Issue 1, pp. L11-L13.

* A Possible Relationship between Quasars and Clusters of Galaxies - The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 549, Issue 2, pp. 802-819.

* On Quasar Distances and Lifetimes in a Local Model - The Astrophysical Journal, 567:801–810, 2002 March 10

* GALACTIC NEUTRAL HYDROGEN EMISSION PROFILE STRUCTURE - The Astronomical Journal, 118:1252È1267, 1999 September

* Filamentation of volcanic plumes on the Jovian satellite I0 - Astrophysics and Space Science (ISSN 0004-640X), vol. 144, no. 1-2,

* On the evolution of interacting, magnetized, galactic plasmas - Astrophysics and Space Science (ISSN 0004-640X), vol. 91, no. 1, March 1983

* Magnetosphere-ionosphere interactions —near-Earth manifestations of the plasma Universe - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 144, Issue 1-2, pp. 105-133

* Distances of Quasars and Quasar‐like Galaxies: Further Evidence That Quasi‐stellar Objects May Be Ejected from Active Galaxies - The Astrophysical Journal, 616:738–744, 2004



I really can't be bothered to post any more, you can see about seventy or so other papers published in mainstream astronomy journals here; http://www.soundintent.com/

Is there something wrong with journals like The Astrophysical Journal, the Journal of Astrophysics and Space Science, The IEEE Journal of Plasma Physics MattusMaximus?

Sometimes it helps to actually know about what you are arguing against :) I am still waiting for your scientific reasons to dismiss plasma cosmology material.

Excellent post. Did you notice how it was ignored, and the critics focused on what an Ad hominem is instead?

This is some kind of mental blindness that some "skeptics" suffer from. Obviously nutjobs suffer from it far worse, but I don't care about true woo woos, they are beyond redemption. :D

But when skeptics, scientist, physicist, astronomers, hard science people, just can't even see something, right in front of their own eyes, that is interesting.

Like this topic, small but real anomalies in trajectories, changes that should not be there, that is interesting.
 
It'd be nice if the woos could show any evidence that the filaments of which they speak are by their nature made of plasma.

ROTFLOL! How much of the observable matter (of which we speak) do you think is made of plasma? Here's a clue:

http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast07sep99_1.htm "99.9 percent of the Universe is made up of plasma," says Dr. Dennis Gallagher, a plasma physicist at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/09/030905072028.htm "Plasma is a hot, ionized, gas-like matter -- a fourth state of matter, distinct from solids, liquids and gases -- believed to make up more than 99 percent of the visible universe, including the stars, galaxies and the vast majority of the solar system."

http://www.physics.umd.edu/news/News Releases/Cassini.htm " Plasmas are the most common form of matter, comprising more than 99 percent of the known visible universe including the Sun and other stars. These ionized gases generate and interact with magnetic and electric fields around planets, stars and other astrophysical environments. Plasma processes can accelerate some ions to incredible energies."

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/news/releases/2004/04-171.html "Geveden also was project manager for several other successful NASA efforts, including the Optical Transient Detector and Lightning Imaging Sensor Earth-orbiting satellites, which produced data for the world's first global map of lightning. He also served as chief engineer for the Waves in Space Plasmas project, a study which involved the measurement of the characteristic frequencies of plasma, the form of matter which comprises more than 99 percent of the visible universe."

See? Even NASA says the answer is over 99 percent. So what do you think the odds are that the filamentary structures we observe ubiquitously in space are not made of plasma or influenced by known processes that influence plasmas? Hmmmmmm?

Such a large-scale filamentary structure does exist, but the filaments are due to the distribution of galaxy clusters, which as far as I know, don't constitute humongous chains of plasma stretching across the universe.

And what form of matter do you think makes up the bulk of observable matter in galaxies? I'll tell you ... Plasma. Before stars form, a galaxy is just clouds of plasma which will be influenced by whatever forces and processes affect plasmas. So if we see chains of galaxies (and we do), there must automatically have been a chain of plasma "stretching across the universe." And even after stars form, much of the matter in galaxies is still not bound in stars but exists as free floating clouds of plasma still subject to whatever forces influence naked plasma. Whereever we look we see galaxies (and the stars in galaxies) strung out in long chains. And everywhere we look around, between and within those structures we see plasmas, often organized, again, into filamentary structures.

For example ...

http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/CIV.html "IMMENSE FLOWS OF CHARGED PARTICLES DISCOVERED BETWEEN THE STARS"

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/499556 "Massive Coronae of Galaxies ... snip ... There is reason to suspect that about half of the baryons in the universe are in pressure?supported plasma in the halos of normal galaxies"

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v341/n6244/abs/341720a0.html "Discovery of intergalactic radio emission in the Coma–A1367 supercluster"

http://www.physorg.com/news96301312.html "Scientists discover vast intergalactic plasma cloud, April 20, 2007, Combining the world's largest radio telescope at Arecibo, Puerto Rico with a precision imaging, seven-antenna synthesis radio telescope at the Dominion Radio Astrophysical Observatory (DRAO), a team of researchers led by Los Alamos scientist Philipp Kronberg have discovered a new giant in the heavens, a giant in the form of a previously undetected cloud of intergalactic plasma that stretches more than 6 million light years across."

Now plasma cosmology has no problem explaining how these strings of stars and galaxies would form from plasmas because plasmas naturally organize themselves into filaments and interact in a way that would seem likely to have helped form stars and galaxies. But mainstream cosmology has to call on that still undefined and unseen *substance* called dark matter and imbue it with all sorts of unique properties in order to even begin to explain these string-like arrangements of stars and galaxies. And even then, they encounter big problems with their model. For example ...

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2004/0107filament.html "2004, GIANT GALAXY STRING DEFIES MODELS OF HOW UNIVERSE EVOLVED, Wide-field telescope observations of the remote and therefore early Universe, looking back to a time when it was a fifth of its present age (redshift = 2.38), have revealed an enormous string of galaxies about 300 million light-years long. This new structure defies current models of how the Universe evolved, which can't explain how a string this big could have formed so early. ... snip ... The astronomers have detected 37 galaxies and one quasar in the string, but "there are almost certainly far more than this," said Palunas. "The string probably contains many thousands of galaxies." ... snip ... The team compared their observations to supercomputer simulations of the early Universe, which could not reproduce strings this large. "The simulations tell us that you cannot take the matter in the early Universe and line it up in strings this large," said Francis. "There simply hasn't been enough time since the Big Bang for it to form structures this colossal". "Our best guess right now is that it's a tip-of-the-iceberg effect," he said. "All we are seeing is the brightest few galaxies. That's probably far less than 1% of what's really out there, most of which is the mysterious invisible dark matter. ... snip ... "To explain our results," said Francis, "the dark matter clouds that lie in strings must have formed galaxies, while the dark matter clouds elsewhere have not done so. We've no idea why this happened - it's not what the models predict."

Furthermore, plasma cosmologists have no problem explaining the formation and observed structure of the stars and galaxies themselves, and the forms of radiation they observe coming from and around them. They have no trouble explaining the observed jets of ... you guessed it ... plasma. But mainstream astrophysicists have to again call on dark matter to explain galactic structure (and formation), as well as electromagnetic physics that stand in stark contrast to what those outside the astrophysics community believe correct in order to explain the observed structure of stars and the existence of jets. They also have to treat plasma as if it were just ordinary neutral gas dominated by phenomena such as "wind", "bow shock" and "sound" to explain many observations that EM/plasma physicists have no problem explaining. And even then the mainstream astrophysicists encounter problems and unexplained surprises, perhaps because "wind" and "sound" are phenomena more appropriate to neutral particle environments like the Earth's atmosphere or oceans than the depths of space.

Anthony Peralt, a plasma physicist at LANL, summarizes the plasma cosmology/electric universe case this way in a paper titled "Plasma and the Universe: Large Scale Dynamics, Filamentation, and Radiation" (linked below): "One of the earliest predictions about the morphology of the universe is that it be filamentary (Alfvén, 1950). This prediction followed from the fact that volumewise, the universe is 99.999% matter in the plasma state. When the plasma is energetic, it is generally inhomogeneous with constituent parts in motion. Plasmas in relative motion are coupled by the currents they drive in each other and nonequilibrium plasma often consists of current-conducting filaments. In the laboratory and in the Solar System, filamentary and cellular morphology is a well-known property of plasma. As the properties of the plasma state of matter is believed not to change beyond the range of our space probes, plasma at astrophysical dimensions must also be filamentary. During the 1980s a series of unexpected observations showed filamentary structure on the Galactic, intergalactic, and supergalactic scale. By this time, the analytical intractibility of complex filamentary geometries, intense self-fields, nonlinearities, and explicit time dependence had fostered the development of fully three-dimensional, fully electromagnetic, particle-in-cell simulations of plasmas having the dimensions of galaxies or systems of galaxies. It had been realized that the importance of applying electromagnetism and plasma physics to the problem of radiogalaxy and galaxy formation derived from the fact that the universe is largely a plasma universe. In plasma, electromagnetic forces exceed gravitational forces by a factor of 10^^36, and electromagnetism is 10^^7 times stronger than gravity even in neutral hydrogen regions, where the degree of ionization is a miniscule 10^^–4. The observational evidence for galactic-dimensioned Birkeland currents is given based on the direct comparison of the synchrotron radiation properties of simulated currents to those of extra-galactic sources including quasars and double radio galaxies."

And retired electrical engineering professor Donald Scott puts it this way in his book "Electric Sky": "A plasma universe and a gravitational universe have gross observational differences. A plasma universe should be filamentary - stringy - at all size scales (in the atmospheres of planets, in the Sun's corona, in groups of stars, in galaxies and in strings of galaxy clusters). It should be energetic, a source of electromagnetic radiation over the entire electromagnetic spectrum, and it should be endless in space. The gravitational universe - the "big bang" universe - is supposed to have produced all the elements originally, should now be quiescent in the absence of mass collisions, and should be increasingly smooth on the large scale. The filamentation, chaos, and radio-frequency radiation that we now observe were not expected in the original big bang model."

I would add that not only were those observations unexpected, in order to explain them Big Bang has had to introduce a score of undetectable, untestable, bizarre particles, energies, forces and events. Gnomes is the word I like. And it's sad that while the astrophysics community is finally coming around to recognizing the filamentary nature of the universe, it still doesn't begin to grasp the significance of plasma in that universe.

For example, here is a report on the largest computer model the mainstream has built yet of the universe:

http://www.physorg.com/news116170410.html "December 06, 2007, Supercomputer simulation of universe may help in search for missing matter ... snip ... Much of the gaseous mass of the universe is bound up in a tangled web of cosmic filaments that stretch for hundreds of millions of light-years, according to a new supercomputer study by a team led by the University of Colorado at Boulder."

The very heart of the problem with the mainstream's approach is aptly demonstrated by that article. It doesn't refer even once to the material in the filaments as being "plasma" and they don't seem to recognize that electromagnetic effects naturally tend to organize plasmas into long filaments. Their model doesn't include any of those effects ... only gravity.

Here's another example of this, even closer to home. In the 2006 paper "The Galactic Center Magnetosphere" by Mark Morris, Department of Physics & Astronomy, UCLA, Morris mentions the recently discovered Double Helix Nebula. Here are several images of the nebula.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v440/n7082/images/nature04554-f1.2.jpg

http://www.broad.mit.edu/news-images/TRC-032306.jpg

He states "At a distance of ~100 pc toward positive Galactic latitude from the Galactic center, a nebula having the form of an intertwined double helix extends over at least 50 pc, with its long axis oriented approximately perpendicular to the Galactic plane (Figure 2). This feature was interpreted as a torsional Alfven wave propagating away from the Galactic center along the magnetic field, and driven by the rotation of the circumnuclear gas disk (CND). ... snip ... The presence of two strands has been attributed to an apparent ”dumbbell” asymmetry of the driving disk (see [65]); the magnetic field threading the disk is concentrated into two diametrically opposed density maxima. A potential weakness of the torsional wave hypothesis is that the wave cannot yet be followed all the way down to its hypothetical source, the CND. However, this also raises the question of why the double helix is visible in the first place; its mid-infrared emission is most likely thermal emission from dust, so the visibility of the nebula at its present location presumably requires that the wave has levitated charged dust grains. ... snip ... There is so far no explanation for how a long bundle of linear, nonthermal filaments could culminate in helically wound, thermal structures."

What a shame that Morris is apparently unfamiliar with force-free Birkeland filaments (http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.php/Filamentation) as they easily explain the shape and other features of the nebula. Instead, he believes in the black hole and "anchored" magnetic field gnomes, as is noted in http://www.physicalsciences.ucla.edu/research/doublehelix.asp. He'd either rather believe in gnomes than consider the possibility that these are Birkeland currents or he's totally unaware of the proven phenomena of Birkeland currents. Either way it's rather sad.

MattusMaximus, can I suggest you try reading more about that which you criticize. Start here:

http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/AtHomeMag.html,

then go here:

http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.php/Plasma_Universe_resources

I suggest these two papers, in particular:

"Plasma and the Universe: Large Scale Dynamics, Filamentation, and Radiation", A. L. Peratt, 1995, Astrophysics and Space Science, v. 227, p. 97-107.

"Electric space : evolution of the plasma universe", A. L. Peratt, 1996, Astrophysics and Space Science, v. 244, p. 89-103.

:D
 
OK you two, take it back to the Thunderbolts topic, or the dark matter topic, or the electric sun topic, or the comets topic, or the plasma physics topic, or the Birkland currents topic, or the ....
 
Btw, we should all ask ourselves why BeAChooser, Zeuzzz, or any other EU-PU woos here haven't bothered to explain the inherent contradictions in the arguments they make that say:

1. General relativity is a well-established and tested theory of the cosmos.

I haven't challenged General Relativity. Nor have most of those I've cited in the PC and EU communities. PC and EU work out just fine within GR, MM.

- AND NOTE -

3. GR actually predicted the BBC and also allowed for a cosmological constant (dark energy), so the two are intricately bound together. If you lose one you have to lose the other.

A particular SOLUTION to GR yields something that has been interpreted as BBC. Other solutions are possible (see Narlikar, for example) which still satisfy GR but don't predict a BB. Rather, those solutions seem more consistent with a continuous creation cosmology.

As far as dark energy and the cosmological constant are concerned, let me just repeat what Narlikar basically said in a speech he delivered in 2000: http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cach...SC+research+narlikar&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us. In it he noted that Einstein initially introduced the cosmological constant to make the universe static (because at the time there was no reason to believe it was expanding). When Hubble and Friedmann came along, he (along with de Sitter) wrote a paper advocating an expanding model and Einstein came to the conclusion that the lambda term was not needed to keep the universe static. "However, whenever new observations showed that their models without the lambda term don't fit, they brought the term back, saying that of course it has to be there. And many times it has happened in cosmological observations that the errors which were present in the earlier observations come to the surface, get recognized, later. ... snip ... Whenever this happened, cosmologists discovered that the reason for which the lambda term was introduced was after all no longer relevant. So they quickly forgot about the lambda term and worked without it. Again the new wave of observations came and they found that lambda term is needed, so again it was brought in with full fanfare. So there is this wave of up and down in the fortunes of the cosmological constant. Currently it is enjoying popularity. But don’t be surprised if after 5 years they again consign it to mothballs. This is how cosmology has worked over the century, so far as the lambda term is concerned." :D
 
MHD maths is used by just about everyone who studies plasmas.

Although, according to Alfven, MHD is used incorrectly or inappropriately by those in the mainstream modeling astrophysical phenomena.

For example in his Nobel Prize acceptance speech he said "I thought that the frozen-in concept was very good from a pedagogical point of view, and indeed it became very popular. In reality, however, it was not a good pedagogical concept, but a dangerous 'pseudo-pedagogical concept'. By 'pseudo-pedagogical' I mean a concept which makes you believe you understand a phenomenon whereas in reality you have drastically misunderstood it."

And in a 1986 paper he wrote "As neither double layer nor circuit can be derived from magnetofluid models of a plasma, such models are useless for treating energy transfer by means of double layers. They must be replaced by particle models and circuit theory. A simple circuit is suggested which is applied to the energizing of auroral particles, to solar flares, and to intergalactic double radio sources. Application to the heliospheric current systems leads to the prediction of two double layers on the Sun's axis which may give radiations detectable from Earth."

:)
 
OK you two, take it back to the Thunderbolts topic, or the dark matter topic, or the electric sun topic, or the comets topic, or the plasma physics topic, or the Birkland currents topic, or the ....

Ok ... on topic ... this might be of interest with regards to the spacecraft anomaly:

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/P/Pioneer_anomaly.html "Another suggestion, made by Gary Page of George Mason University and his colleagues, is to use remote asteroids to test if an unknown gravitational factor is the cause of the anomaly. They have identified 15 asteroids that might be subjected to the mysterious force; all of the asteroids' orbits stretch far into the outer solar system where the anomaly has made itself felt. Of the 15 candidates, the most promising is 1995SN55. This 370-kilometre-wide rock has spent the past 54 years in the anomaly zone, so it should have experienced the largest perturbation, and, interestingly, it is not where predictions say it should be. "

And note (from the same source) that other spacecraft may be experiencing the Pioneer type anomaly. "The JPL team pointed to data from the Ulysses and Galileo spacecraft which suggest a similar effect may be at work on these probes. However, it has been hard to draw firm conclusions in the case of Ulysses and Galileo partly because they have not travelled as far from the Sun as have Pioneers 10 and 11. The Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 spacecraft, which have now gone even further from the Sun than the Pioneers, are not a helpful as might be expected in contributing to the investigation of the Pioneer anomaly because of the way in which they are stabilized. Unlike the Pioneers, which are spin-stabilized, the Voyagers have what is known as three-axis stabilization. This results in an greater uncertainty in the spacecrafts' theoretical positions. The uncertainty is sufficiently high as to mask any deceleration similar in magnitude to that seen in the Pioneer probes."
 
I haven't challenged General Relativity. Nor have most of those I've cited in the PC and EU communities. PC and EU work out just fine within GR, MM.



A particular SOLUTION to GR yields something that has been interpreted as BBC. Other solutions are possible (see Narlikar, for example) which still satisfy GR but don't predict a BB. Rather, those solutions seem more consistent with a continuous creation cosmology.

-snipped--

I am sorry BeAChooser,but why do you think that contempoary cosmology is successfull and survived many test,experiments and so on?
Answer is,that it is not particular solution but huge family of solutions,where only small number of parameters have to be exminated.Of course there is still too many combinations,so there are all the time experiments,searches.
BTW.Before we got to cca three major candidates,there were other solutions,one even permiting faster then light travel,but all failed to withstand datas.

See:Einstein at home (Distributed computation)-search for gravitational waves
Cosmology at home(same)-solving models with given parametrs and comparing to gathered datas from space missions...

If you or any other supporter want,Cosmology at home to include EU or PU.Results could be quite interesting...
 
But when skeptics, scientist, physicist, astronomers, hard science people, just can't even see something, right in front of their own eyes, that is interesting.

Like this topic, small but real anomalies in trajectories, changes that should not be there, that is interesting.

What are you talking about? Who's not seeing it?

"Mainstream" physicists (whatever that means) are excited about this and thinking and working on it (although they know from experience not to take it too seriously).

When something strange comes along people jump all over it in case it's really something new. Usually it's not, but it's worth the risk.
 
ROTFLOL! How much of the observable matter (of which we speak) do you think is made of plasma? ...
BEC, The links you quote are redundant - all scientists agree that a large % of the visible universe is plasma, e.g. in stars. The big issue is how much of the universe is visible? There is plenty of observational evidence that only 4% of the universe is visible.
Also you really need to learn the difference between the successful predictions of plasma physics for the stellar, galactic and intra-galactic observation in your links and the predictions of plasma cosmology (i.e. nothing).
 
The links you quote are redundant - all scientists agree that a large % of the visible universe is plasma, e.g. in stars. The big issue is how much of the universe is visible? There is plenty of observational evidence that only 4% of the universe is visible.


I completely fail to see how the issue of knowing the amount of visible universe makes those links redundant. We shouldnt have to worry about what we cant see, but from our observable slice it is now well known that it is 99% plasma.

The actual percentage of the universe that is plasma is though to be 99.999% (Plasma Physics), the solar wind is regarded as plasma, and all interplanetary currents are also plasma. And as Anthony Peratt puts it in his 1995 publication in the Journal of Astrophysics and Space Science; "Contrary to popular and scientific opinion of just a few decades ago, space is not an empty void. It is actually filled with high energy particles, magnetic fields, and highly conducting plasma. The ability of plasmas to produce electric fields, either by instabilities brought about by plasma motion or the movement of magnetic fields, has popularized the term Electric Space in recognition of the electric fields systematically discovered and measured in the solar system. Today it is recognized that 99.999% of all observable matter in the universe is in the plasma state and the importance of electromagnetic forces on cosmic plasma cannot be overstated; even in neutral hydrogen regions (sim10–4 parts ionized), the electromagnetic force to gravitational force ratio is 107."


Also you really need to learn the difference between the successful predictions of plasma physics for the stellar, galactic and intra-galactic observation in your links and the predictions of plasma cosmology (i.e. nothing).


Which of those predictions is not relevant to plasma cosmology or plasma physics then? Any paper, or prediction, confirming the dynamic electrical nature of the universe is further proof of plasma cosmology and the EM forces in space that arrise from the electrical nature of plasma. Most of the gravitational models still being used today were created before scientists knew how dynamic the plasma is space is, it is unimaginable that these new discoveries in plasma physics would not change the way the cosmos works. That is essentially what Plasma Cosmology is, appying what we know about plasma physics to space.

I dont think that it matters what field the predictions i listed lie in, Infact most people who would be considered plasma cosmologists call themselves plasma physicists, or they say they are in the area of plasma astrophysics. I think that the actual term plasma cosmologist is only used by a few in that field. Plasma cosmology is based on the observations that plasma physicists and astrophysicists make, and is in essence the same thing. Some people call it the 'plasma universe', 'electric universe' but it really doesn't matter what you call it, they are all getting at the same thing; plasma and EM forces are far more dominant in our universe than previously thought. Space is full of charges, voltages, currents and E-fields. So all the predictions listed above are very relevant to plasma cosmology no matter how much you try to dismiss them.
 
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I am sorry BeAChooser,but why do you think that contempoary cosmology is successfull and survived many test,experiments and so on?

Well, first of all, contemporary cosmology hasn't really survived experiments, observations "and so on" ... not without introducing a host of seemingly invisible and often bizarre gnomes (particles, energy and physics that in 30 years have defied understanding or proven existence). And even with all those gnomes, hardly a day passes that we don't hear mainstream astrophysicists announcing yet another surprise that doesn't fit their existing models and that may require adjustment of the gnomes or even new gnomes.

Second, why do you assume the alternatives such as Hoyle, Burbidge and Narlikar's Quasi-Steady State Cosmology (QSSC) or G.A. Barber's Self Creation Cosmology (SCC) ... both of which eliminate the need for singularities, inflation, dark matter and dark energy ... are not equally successful in matching observations and experiments? Indeed, many would argue that they are more successful. For example, SCC can explain the Pioneer Anomaly and both would appear to explain the concerns of Arp regarding curious unlikely associations between high redshift objects and low redshift objects or certain features of low redshift objects. Plus, plasma universe proponents would say that it is they who have predicted the filamentary structure of the universe and they who can best explain numerous observations in that universe (such as jets). And they do it with physics we can actually reproduce here on earth and without invoking additional gnomes (such as black holes, neutron stars, quark stars, frozen-in magnetic fields, and magnetic reconnection). :D

In fact, contemporary cosmology has been so unsuccessful that some of it's proponents are now dreaming up even more bizarre gnomes. For example ... http://www.trustedlog.com/2007/11/26/parallel-universe-exists-we-have-evidence/ "Last August, astronomers working on the analysis of data being acquired by NASA’s WMAP (Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe) satellite announced that they found a huge void in the universe. A void is a region of space that has much less material (stars, nebulae, dust and other material) than the average. Since our universe is relatively heterogeneous, empty spaces are not rare, but in this case the enormous magnitude of the hole is way outside the expected range. The hole found in the constellation of Eridanus is about a billion light years across, which is roughly 10,000 times as large as our galaxy or 400 times the distance to Andromeda, the closest “large” galaxy. The dimension of the hole is so big that at first glance, it results impossible to explain under the current cosmological theories, although scientists put forward some explanations based on certain theoretical models that might predict the existence of “giant knots” in space known as topological defects. However, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill physics Professor Laura Mersini-Houghton made a staggering claim. She says, “Standard cosmology cannot explain such a giant cosmic hole” and goes further with the ground-breaking hypothesis that the huge void is “… the unmistakable imprint of another universe beyond the edge of our own“ ... snip ... The implications of this possibility are obviously of huge importance for everybody, but it also has further relevance for the astrophysics community as it would bring support for the hotly debated string theory and other central debates."

Cosmology at home

For some reason, I don't think lack of computing power is the problem. And why would I want to let gnome calculators access my computer? :)
 

RC, if you are going to abbreviate my screenname ... at least get the abbreviation right. :)

The links you quote are redundant - all scientists agree that a large % of the visible universe is plasma, e.g. in stars.]

Well apparently MattusMaximus was questioning this. And since you didn't step in to correct his misimpression, I though I should. :D
 
You sure they exist or are at least as ubiquitous as the mainstream claims?
Yes they exist and are common. Our own galaxy has a object at its center with a mass of 2.6 million solar masses and a radius of no more than 1 AU.(http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~ghezgroup/gc/journey/blackHole.shtml). Only a black hole could be that massive and small. Our galaxy is not special and so it is probable that all galaxies have such supermassive objects. There is also plenty of evidence of stellar-sized black holes.
 
Forum Rule #11: Posts must be on topic to the thread subject. On this Forum thread drift is expected but must follow from the discussion.


Yeah, and here I thought this was going to be a thread about the Pinoeer Anomaly - and then here come the plasma universe WOOS who insist upon repeatedly derailing the discussion with their psuedo-cosmology.
 
BEC, The links you quote are redundant - all scientists agree that a large % of the visible universe is plasma, e.g. in stars. The big issue is how much of the universe is visible? There is plenty of observational evidence that only 4% of the universe is visible.
Also you really need to learn the difference between the successful predictions of plasma physics for the stellar, galactic and intra-galactic observation in your links and the predictions of plasma cosmology (i.e. nothing).


Thank you RC. I was going to make precisely this same point, but you beat me to it. Taking into account dark matter & dark energy, only about 4% of what's out there appears to be your typical baryonic matter (of which plasma is composed).

You also correctly point out that rather than post predictions and tests of plasma cosmology, the WOOS post predictions and tests of plasma physics. They then claim success, when in reality they're simply making hand-waving ad-hoc assertions (again).

It would be just as stupid as me posting experimental evidence for simple harmonic oscillators and then claiming it is definitive proof for string theory.

So, anybody want to ditch these clowns and talk about the Pioneer Anomaly?
 
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I completely fail to see how the issue of knowing the amount of visible universe makes those links redundant. We shouldnt have to worry about what we cant see, but from our observable slice it is now well known that it is 99% plasma.


Sigh... somebody should tell this guy that "observable" doesn't mean the same thing as "visible."

Pioneer Anomaly? Anyone?
 
Well, first of all, contemporary cosmology hasn't really survived experiments, observations "and so on" ... not without introducing a host of seemingly invisible and often bizarre gnomes (particles, energy and physics that in 30 years have defied understanding or proven existence). And even with all those gnomes, hardly a day passes that we don't hear mainstream astrophysicists announcing yet another surprise that doesn't fit their existing models and that may require adjustment of the gnomes or even new gnomes.

Second, why do you assume the alternatives such as Hoyle, Burbidge and Narlikar's Quasi-Steady State Cosmology (QSSC) or G.A. Barber's Self Creation Cosmology (SCC) ... both of which eliminate the need for singularities, inflation, dark matter and dark energy ... are not equally successful in matching observations and experiments? Indeed, many would argue that they are more successful. For example, SCC can explain the Pioneer Anomaly and both would appear to explain the concerns of Arp regarding curious unlikely associations between high redshift objects and low redshift objects or certain features of low redshift objects. Plus, plasma universe proponents would say that it is they who have predicted the filamentary structure of the universe and they who can best explain numerous observations in that universe (such as jets). And they do it with physics we can actually reproduce here on earth and without invoking additional gnomes (such as black holes, neutron stars, quark stars, frozen-in magnetic fields, and magnetic reconnection). :D

In fact, contemporary cosmology has been so unsuccessful that some of it's proponents are now dreaming up even more bizarre gnomes. For example ...
--url taken out,system did not allow me to pst with this in place...---
Last August, astronomers working on the analysis of data being acquired by NASA’s WMAP (Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe) satellite announced that they found a huge void in the universe. A void is a region of space that has much less material (stars, nebulae, dust and other material) than the average. Since our universe is relatively heterogeneous, empty spaces are not rare, but in this case the enormous magnitude of the hole is way outside the expected range. The hole found in the constellation of Eridanus is about a billion light years across, which is roughly 10,000 times as large as our galaxy or 400 times the distance to Andromeda, the closest “large” galaxy. The dimension of the hole is so big that at first glance, it results impossible to explain under the current cosmological theories, although scientists put forward some explanations based on certain theoretical models that might predict the existence of “giant knots” in space known as topological defects. However, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill physics Professor Laura Mersini-Houghton made a staggering claim. She says, “Standard cosmology cannot explain such a giant cosmic hole” and goes further with the ground-breaking hypothesis that the huge void is “… the unmistakable imprint of another universe beyond the edge of our own“ ... snip ... The implications of this possibility are obviously of huge importance for everybody, but it also has further relevance for the astrophysics community as it would bring support for the hotly debated string theory and other central debates."



For some reason, I don't think lack of computing power is the problem. And why would I want to let gnome calculators access my computer? :)


Arghh for URL in quote,system ate my post... :-(

Short version:
Black holes are not gnomes-like.What do you think we have in the center of our galaxy?
Neutron stars were observed.(from my memory-not reliable;once time permits I will hunt down links...)

That we detect large gap does not mean nothing is there.Only large part of EM is blocked or below threshold...

I think you can send them EU or PU theories for computation.

(You are BTW helping to get 15th post pretty quickly... :-D )
 

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