Something new under the sun

Thank you RC. I was going to make precisely this same point, but you beat me to it. Taking into account dark matter & dark energy, only about 4% of what's out there appears to be your typical baryonic matter (of which plasma is composed).


Do you read any of my posts? I seriously doubt it. And can you stop inferring that this is my personal theory, these are the theories of highly competant scientists. As i included in my last post, from the Journal Of Astrophysics and Space Science, "Today it is recognized that 99.999% of all observable matter in the universe is in the plasma state and the importance of electromagnetic forces on cosmic plasma cannot be overstated"


You also correctly point out that rather than post predictions and tests of plasma cosmology, the WOOS post predictions and tests of plasma physics. They then claim success, when in reality they're simply making hand-waving ad-hoc assertions (again).


They are basically the same thing, plasma cosmology hold this work of plasma physicists in much higher regard than standard astronomy. Again, i addressed this in my last post, but you appear to have completely ignored this, along with all the papers i quoted published in mainstream cosmology journals by plasma cosmologists. Do you actually not physically see what is being presented to you? Are you really that close minded that your brain literally shuts it out? Minds are like parachutes, they only function when open, and yours appears to be firmly shut.


For the fifth time, if there is anything wrong with the material being presented, then please, tell us what is so wrong with it. Calling someone a woo, or saying a paper is woo, is not a scientific reason. Perhaps you should contact the journal of Astrophysics and Space Science, The Astronomical Journal, Nature and Science, and inform them of their terrible mistake in publishing much plasma cosmology material. So, unless you can come up with a reason to dismiss the material I presented in this post of over seventy peer reviewed plasma cosmology publications, i suggest you stop bashing the scientific method, and get reading. This may be a good place to start; http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/papers.html#COSMOLOGY If you can find these massive problems in their work, then please, enlighten us.
 
I thouroughly debunked the one website (wikipedia) you claimed debunked plasma cosmology, and you can find no other sources to debunk it, and can not come up with any reasons yourself other just shouting 'woo' at everyone. How Mature. That doesn't make you look very good. Just incase you missed the posts i am referring to here they are;


More electric-plasma universe woo!!! Just as the thread was getting on track about the Pioneer Anomaly. Arrrggh...

Since the woos are going to post links, I might as well too...

Comparisons of Plasma Cosmology to Mainstream Cosmology

Good grief... will the flood of woo-crap never cease?!

Since you are so keen to keep bringing up that small wikipedia entry that purports to debunk plasma cosmology, thats have a look at some of the problems with it. As i said before, your best bet to see PC material is not on wikipedia, this site is far less biased.


"Plasma cosmology has been developed in much less detail than mainstream cosmology and lacks many of the key predictions and features of the current models[citation needed].


Yes, indeed, 'citation needed'


Plasma cosmology generally provides qualitative descriptions and no systematic explanation for the standard features of mainstream cosmological theories[citation needed].

No evidence for the proposition, again.


The mass estimates of galaxy clusters using gravitational lensing also indicate that there is a large quantity of dark matter present, an observation not explained by plasma cosmology models.[19]


This is hilarious! Mainstream scientists are saying that plasma cosmology is not viable because it is not based on things that they made up to plug the numbers in their models! The irony.

The fact that plasma cosmology needs no such epicycles such as 'dark matter' 'dark energy' or 'hidden dimensions' to function correctly is a strong strength of plamsa cosmology, definitely not a weakness.


Mainstream studies also suggest that the universe is homogeneous on large scales without evidence of the very large scale structure required by plasma filamentation proposals.[20]



Well, i don’t know what universe the people who wrote this are living in, but it definitely is not this one. Are they seriously saying that there is not large scale filamentation observed in space?

Even in our own milky way the abundance of filaments has largely remained a mystery to conventional astronomers with their gravitational only equations. They seem to be ignoring the large amount of galaxies recently discovered lined up along filamentary paths, In fact, these filamentary structures seem to be everywhere, from large scale to small scale, and are very hard to explain with gravitational equations alone, EM forces and currents have to be employed.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/galaxy_filaments_040607.html
New observations of the center of our Milky Way Galaxy have revealed the origin of radio-emitting filaments that puzzled astronomers for two decades.

The filaments range from 10 to 100 light-years in length and 1 to 3 light-years across. They occur only in a very narrow area, within about 900 light-years of the galactic center, a region crowded with old and new stars.

The filaments emerge from pockets of intense star formation, the new study found. [......]

The exact mechanism that creates the filaments remains to be discovered.

"One possibility is that they are produced by the collision of winds blown off from individual stars," Yusef-Zadeh said.



Who ever has administration rights over this page at wikipedia clearly lacks an in depth understanding of plasma astrophysics, and what its proponents have discovered over the past couple of decades.

* Microwave Generation from Filamentation and Vortex Formation within Magnetically Confined Electron Beams, A. L. Peratt and C. M. Snell, Physical Review Letters, 54, pp. 1167-1170, 1985 (688K).

* Interstellar Neutral Hydrogen Filaments at High Galactic Latitudes and the Bennett Pinch G. L. Verschuur, Astrophys. Space Sci. 227, pp. 187-198, 1995 (776K).

* Filamentary Structures in planetary nebulae (PDF), 2006-07-04, Seminar, Space & Plasma Physics, Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm

* Filamentary structures in planetary nebulae - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 310, Issue 1-2, pp. 65-72, 2007



The largest galaxy number count to date, the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, corresponds well to the mainstream picture.[21]


What they fail to note that these observations are consistent with both mainstream ideas and plasma cosmology, and that is probably why they do not say how this observation actually falsifies plasma cosmology.


Light element production without Big Bang nucleosynthesis (as required in plasma cosmology) has been discussed in the mainstream literature and was determined to produce excessive x-rays and gamma rays beyond that observed.[22][23] This issue has not been completely addressed by plasma cosmology proponents in their proposals.[24] Additionally, from an observational point of view, the gamma rays emitted by even small amounts of matter/antimatter annihilation should be easily visible using gamma ray telescopes. However, such gamma rays have not been observed. This could be resolved by proposing, as Alfvén did, that the bubble of matter we are in is larger than the observable universe.


This is what you get for trusting wikipedia. Light element production has been answered by many plasma cosmologists, I think that Lerners galaxy production method is favoured at the moment, Arp has proposed another method, others have proposed a stellar origin, and there are many others that are all viable contenders. I am very surprised they have not included this work on that page, as it appears to answer all the 'problems' they are saying exist. Heres a few;

* Magnetic Vortex Filaments, Universal Invariants and the Fundamental Constants IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Special Issue on Cosmic Plasma, Vol. PS‑14, No. 6, Dec. 1986, pp. 690‑702.

* Force-Free Magnetic Filaments and the Cosmic Background Radiation IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Vol.20, no. 6, Dec. 1992, pp. 935-938.

* Galactic Model of Element Formation IEEE Transac*tions on Plasma Science, Vol. 17, No. 3, April 1989, pp. 259‑263.

* Magnetic Self-Compression in Laboratory Plasma, Quasars and Radio Galaxies - Laser and Particle Beams, Vol. 4, Pt. 2, (1986), pp. 193-222.


No proposal based on plasma cosmology trying to explain the cosmic microwave background radiation has been published since COBE results were announced. Proposed explanations are relying on integrated starlight and do not provide any indication of how to explain that the observed angular anisotropies of CMB power spectrum is (so low as) one part in 105. The sensitivity and resolution of the measurement of these anisotropies was greatly advanced by WMAP. The fact that the CMB was measured to be so isotropic, inline with the predictions of the big bang model, was subsequently heralded as a major confirmation of the Big Bang model to the detriment of alternatives.[25]



Again, they seem to be ignoring the solutions offered to these problems.

* Radio Absorption by the Intergalactic Medium The Astro*physical Journal, Vol. 361, Sept. 20, 1990, pp. 63‑68.

* Confirmation of Radio Absorption by the Intergalactic Medium Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol 207, 1993 p.17-26.

* Intergalactic Radio Absorption and the COBE Data Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol.227, May, 1995, p.61-81

* Evidence for a Non-Expanding Universe: Surface Brightness Data From HUDF - Proceedings of the First Crisis in Cosmology Conference, AIP proceedings series 822, 2006, p.60-74.



Plasma cosmology is not considered by the astronomical community to be a viable alternative to the Big Bang. As such, plasma cosmology has remained sidelined and viewed in the community as a proposal unworthy of serious consideration.[/i]"




Well, I largely agree with that. A shame that there is so much resistance it, but the same is true with any new area of science. The trouble is that there is never any substantial, consistent reason proposed to dismiss Plasma cosmology, and so the scientists that support it seem to be growing in number every year.

I am still waiting for your source that refutes plasma cosmology, apart from wikipedia. If you cant find one, ask yourself why that is.

This paper sums up the comparison between the two cosmologies in a far less biased way than wikipedia.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1265349&isnumber=28301


Two world systems revisited: a comparison of plasma cosmology and the Big Bang
Lerner, E.J.
Lawrenceville Plasma Phys., NJ, USA;

This paper appears in: Plasma Science, IEEE Transactions on
Publication Date: Dec. 2003
Volume: 31, Issue: 6, Part 1
On page(s): 1268- 1275

Abstract:

Despite its great popularity, the Big Bang framework for cosmology faces growing contradictions with observation. The Big Bang theory requires three hypothetical entities-the inflation field, nonbaryonic (dark) matter, and the dark energy field-to overcome gross contradictions of theory and observation. Yet, no evidence has ever confirmed the existence of any of these three hypothetical entities. The predictions of the theory for the abundance of /sup 4/He, /sup 7/Li, and D are more than 7/spl sigma/ from the data for any assumed density of baryons and the probability of the theory fitting the data is less than 10/sup -14/. Observations of voids in the distribution of galaxies that are in excess of 100 Mpc in diameter, combined with observed low streaming velocities of galaxies, imply an age for these structure that is at least triple and more likely six times the hypothesized time since the Big Bang. Big Bang predictions for the anisotropy of the microwave background, which now involve seven or more free parameters, still are excluded by the data at the 2/spl sigma/ level. The observed preferred direction in the background anisotropy completely contradicts Big Bang assumptions. In contrast, the predictions of plasma cosmology have been strengthened by new observations, including evidence for the stellar origin of the light elements, the plasma origin of large-scale structures, and the origin of the cosmic microwave background in a "radio fog" of dense plasma filaments. This review of the evidence shows that the time has come, and indeed has long since come, to abandon the Big Bang as the primary model of cosmology.




Plasma cosmoloigts have made many predictions.

Alfven also predicted double radio sources, and that most of the mass in the universe is plasma.

Kristian Birkeland predicted auroral electrojets in 1908. In 1967 Alex Dessler wrote an article arguing that Zmuda et al had indeed detected field align-currents. Alfvén subsequently credited (1986) that Dessler "discovered the currents that Birkeland had predicted" He also predicted that we would observe birkeland currents in space, which turned out true.

In 1913, Birkeland was the first to predict that plasma was ubiquitous in space. He wrote: "It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds."(Ref), which has been confirmed, as 99% of the universe is matter in a plasma state.

In 1916, Birkeland was probably the first person to successfully predict that the solar wind behaves as do all charged particles in an electric field, "From a physical point of view it is most probable that solar rays are neither exclusively negative nor positive rays, but of both kinds"; in other words, the Solar Wind consists of both negative electrons and positive ions.

Wallace Thornhill predicted the flash produced by a small electrical discharge in the deep impact excercise. He said "The electrical energy will be released before impact" and this was confirmed by NASA investigator Peter Schultz, describing the event recorded from the spacecraft: "What you see is something really surprising. First, there is a small flash, then there's a delay, then there's a big flash and the whole thing breaks loose”.

And he also said that "An abundance of water on or below the surface of the nucleus (the underlying assumption of the dirty snowball hypothesis) is unlikely.", which was also confirmed.

There are many more, Nobel prize winner Langmuir also made a couple of predictions that turned out true, as did Anthony Peratt with galaxy shapes and pinch effects in the cosmos, Gerrit L. Verschuur made predictions in the field of CIV, etc,




your jokin right? Did you actually read any of the site? it even states what journals the work is published in.


Heres a small list of some of the plasma cosmology papers published in mainstream astronmy journals;


* Introduction to Plasma Astrophysics and Cosmology - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 3-11

* Electric space: Evolution of the plasma universe - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 244, Issue 1-2, pp. 89-103

* Advances in numerical modeling of astrophysical and space plasmas - Astrophysics and Space Science Volume 242, Numbers 1-2 / March, 1996

* How Can Spirals Persist? - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 175-186

* Advances in Numerical Modeling of Astrophysical and Space Plasmas 2 - Astrophysics and Space Science Volume 256, Numbers 1-2 / March, 1997

* Plasma and the Universe: Large Scale Dynamics, Filamentation, and Radiation - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 97-107

* Rotation Velocity and Neutral Hydrogen Distribution Dependency on Magnetic Field Strength in Spiral Galaxies - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 167-173

* Radiation Properties of Pulsar Magnetospheres: Observation, Theory, and Experiment - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 229-253

* Confirmation of radio absorption by the intergalactic medium - Astrophysics and Space Science (ISSN 0004-640X), vol. 207, no. 1, p. 17-26

* X-Ray-emitting QSOS Ejected from Arp 220 - The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 553, Issue 1, pp. L11-L13.

* A Possible Relationship between Quasars and Clusters of Galaxies - The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 549, Issue 2, pp. 802-819.

* On Quasar Distances and Lifetimes in a Local Model - The Astrophysical Journal, 567:801–810, 2002 March 10

* GALACTIC NEUTRAL HYDROGEN EMISSION PROFILE STRUCTURE - The Astronomical Journal, 118:1252È1267, 1999 September

* Filamentation of volcanic plumes on the Jovian satellite I0 - Astrophysics and Space Science (ISSN 0004-640X), vol. 144, no. 1-2,

* On the evolution of interacting, magnetized, galactic plasmas - Astrophysics and Space Science (ISSN 0004-640X), vol. 91, no. 1, March 1983

* Magnetosphere-ionosphere interactions —near-Earth manifestations of the plasma Universe - Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 144, Issue 1-2, pp. 105-133

* Distances of Quasars and Quasar‐like Galaxies: Further Evidence That Quasi‐stellar Objects May Be Ejected from Active Galaxies - The Astrophysical Journal, 616:738–744, 2004



I really can't be bothered to post any more, you can see about seventy or so other papers published in mainstream astronomy journals here; http://www.soundintent.com/

Is there something wrong with journals like The Astrophysical Journal, the Journal of Astrophysics and Space Science, The IEEE Journal of Plasma Physics MattusMaximus?

Sometimes it helps to actually know about what you are arguing against :) I am still waiting for your scientific reasons to dismiss plasma cosmology material.


I'm not sure if you can actually see this material, as you seem completely unable to comment on it, but please try.
 
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Oh, and i really would like to get back to the subject at hand, the pioneer anomaly, and potential causes of this, but the solution i can see to the problem is based on plasma cosmology concepts, so i feel i have to justfy this position before elaborating on the potential solution to this issue. Mainly using E-fields and electro-statics.

Does anyone have the exact data from pioneer? or the data on the magnitude of the force acting on it?
 
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Oh, and i really would like to get back to the subject at hand, the pioneer anomaly, and potential causes of this, but the solution i can see to the problem is based on plasma cosmology concepts, so i feel i have to justfy this position before elaborating on the potential solution to this issue. Mainly using E-fields and electro-statics.

Does anyone have the exact data from pioneer? or the data on the magnitude of the force acting on it?
If you want all 40GB of telemetry data from Pioneer (see http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn11304?DCMP=Matt_Sparkes&nsref=pioneer) then you will have to apply to NASA or maybe the people doing the computer ananlysis can supply it. Wikipedia states that there is a sunward acceleration of (8.74 ± 1.33) × 10−10 m/s2 for both spacecraft.
However the flyby spacecraft (the subject of the post) have velocity (not acceleration) anomalies of the order of millimetres per second and some are lower and others faster than the calculated values. Note that one flyby spacecraft has no anomaly.
 
You sure they exist or are at least as ubiquitous as the mainstream claims?


I thought there was some evidence to consider, in that by observing stars around the galactic core, of our galaxy, rates and vectors of motion are observed. there appears to be a very compact and very massive objects at the center of our galaxy.

Then there is evidence (which I am sure you interpret differently) of the spectrums of galaxies from the Sloan Digital Survey which might (to some) indicate that there appears to be matter in collapsing disks approaching the spped of light. And then there is the evidence (again open to interpretation) of the Active Galactic Nuclei and the potential that thier behavior is from black holes.
 
Zeuzz - regarding the links you give to deal with the CMB - none sufficiently explain the excellent data we have now. There are a very small number of papers out there that BAC has linked before, but none of those explain all the available CMB data we have now either - their best fit I've seen does not fit all the data, and they erroneously exclude much of that data just to get that best fit. As another example, you link a paper by Lerner explaining the COBE data. COBE was great for its time, but it's way outdated now. Explaining that is somewhat easier than explaining the mass of data we have now.

In contrast, WMAP's just released their five-year data set and it's still an excellent fit to LCDM. 6 parameter model, no deviations from it at greater than 99% confidence.
 
As far as i see it, this effect on pioneer and others may beable to be explained by the charge than accumulates on spacecraft, and the effects this charge has in the suns EM field (or the suns plasmasphere is probably better terminology)

It is well known that a spacecraft will build up a charge if they are travelling through an electrical field, as they adjust to the voltage of the surrounding ambient space plasma. Often referred to as ‘electrostatic charging’ or ‘differential charging’.

Electrostatic charging phenomena of contaminated spacecraft thermal blankets - AIAA and ASME, Joint Thermophysics and Heat Transfer Conference, 5th, Seattle, WA, June

The build-up of static charge on spacecraft will occur naturally in order to minimize the potential difference between the spacecraft surfaces and the ambient plasma environment.


So as the probe is travelling through the weak E-field produced by the sun that extends right to the ends of the suns plasmasphere, it will reach a certain equilibrium where its charge in relation to the solar wind stay constant. This value will depend on the surface conductivity of the space craft, if it conducts electricity well then it will adjust very quickly to the voltage of the surrounding plasma, but if it has a low surface conductivity the charge will take longer to adjust, and so will build up to a higher amount.

http://www.eas.asu.edu/~holbert/eee460/spc-chrg.html
Absolute charging occurs when the satellite potential relative to the ambient plasma is changed uniformly. Differential charging occurs when parts of the spacecraft are charged to different potential relative to one another. Absolute charging is on the order of microseconds. Differential charging typically occurs over seconds to minutes because of capacitance considerations. The absolute charging of spacecraft surfaces (relative to ambient plasma) is not generally detrimental; rather it is the possible discharge effects from differential charging (see Fig. 4) which can disrupt satellite operations. Most of the undesired effects of charging are due to the discharge arcing, and include physical materials damage and EMI generation (and resultant transient pulses). Arc-discharges occur when the electric fields created by differential charging exceed breakdown potentials. The arcs are rapid (~ nanosec) and rearrange charge distribution by punch-through (internal dielectric breakdown), and by flashover between surfaces or between surfaces and space.[….]

Typically, differential charging has occurred after geomagnetic substorms, which result in the injection of keV electrons into the magnetosphere. While in eclipse, the spacecraft may negatively charge to tens of kilovolts.




Looking at some of the data about, what we know about pioneer is;

Mass = 258 kg

Anomalous Acceleration = 8.74 × 10−10 m/s2

Pioneer 10 is moving at roughly 2.6 AUs per year.

December 30, 2005 Pioneer 10 was 89.7 AU away from the Sun. So now in 2008, pioneer will be approximately 97.5 AU away from the sun, or 1.46 x 1013 m.



The trouble is that both the values of charge are unknown, the sun and the spacecraft. The interplanetary potential has never been measured, and so no-one really knows the charge on the sun past a few different theoretical values. I don’t think that anyone knows how much charge individual spacecraft build up, but if that information is publicly available, that would be very handy to know.

I think we can assume that the charge on the ship will be quite small, as it is made of metal which conducts electricity quite well, and so the voltage between the craft and the surrounding space should not be too high, lets say about 10 coulombs. So using this assumption,

We know by F=ma that that the force on the spacecraft is 2.25x10-7
So assuming the charge built up on the spacecraft to be 10 coulombs, then using;

[latex]{Q}_{1}= \frac{4\pi{\epsilon}_{0}{r}^{2}F}{{Q}_2}} [/latex]

The charge on the sun using the force from Pioneer data works out to be 5.33x108.

And the electrical potential at pioneers current position would be;

[latex]{V}= \frac{Q_1}{4\pi{\epsilon}_{0}r^2} [/latex] (god damn Latex, it means, (Q1/[4Pi.permittivity of free space.r2] )

Giving 328 kV.


This value of charge on the sun is where the clash between mainstream opinion, and plasma cosmology come in (actually, this idea of the substantial net charge is more in the realm of EU theory, but is consistent with both to a certain extent). I note that the value of 5.33x107 is in a similar ball park to what some EU proponents have claimed the total charge of the sun could be. They often say it is likely between 105 or 109, but since data on this is not yet been taken no-one knows which is the more likely. In this model, as you travel towards the sun the voltage increases, so does the strength of the suns E-field (obviously) and so does the current density, due to the plasma fequency relationship (equation number three gives change in current density with time). When you reach the corona the current density becomes so high you start to see the currents as glowing plasma in clear filaments.

I should point out that none of the maths I did above is exact, I had to estimate variables that we don’t know exist yet, and there are also some other more subtle assumptions in there, but it does give a rough overview of what I think could be occurring.



In EU theory this is also how comets work, due to their elliptical orbits they are travelling through the varying strength electrical field of the sun, and so they build up a substantial voltage and create the huge plasma discharge coma as the currents, tail (and Ion tail) we see on them. Asteroids however do not have tails as their orbits are circular, and so will always stay at the same electric potential in the suns E-field.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=917&start=15
If the asteroid is highly conductive, ie made primarily out of conducting metals instead of the more normal rock constitution, the asteroid would adjust to the local voltage nearly instantly. So as it is moving towards the sun there is very little difference between the asteroids voltage and the surrounding voltage of the plasma. However in an asteroid made primarily out of rock with little conductive metal the charge would find it much harder to move in or out of the asteroid, and so the asteroid will retain its charge for a lot longer, and thus take a lot longer to equalize to the voltage of the surrounding space plasma as it moves through the e-field. A certain threshold value of equilibrium would occur between the potential of the comet and the surrounding plasma, ie, the charge never equalizes fully, the comet is always at a different voltage which would increase at the same rate as the surrounding space plasma. This would create a big voltage difference, which would attract current in the solar wind to create the coma plasma-sheath in glow mode which surrounds the comets nucleus.

All asteroids are made of metal and rock, so the extent of comets tails and comas may be determined by the conductivity of the surface and the general capacitance of the comets interior.

Using this model you can also explain Comets Holmes recent sudden outburst by using a sudden change in surface conductivity, which could result in rapid accumulation of charge and the huge coma that stunned scientists.


So could a similar effect be causing the anomaly? An effect resulting from the suns E-field and the slight charge accumulation on Pioneer. Of course, pioneer is far more conductive and will adjust to the surrounding voltage much quicker than comets, so it will never develop a tail or coma like a comet does.

Well, that certainly seems much more likely explanation than Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Hidden dimensions or yet another modification of gravity. But I’ll be open to alternative explanations if anyone can come up with any.
 
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As far as i see it, this effect on pioneer and others may beable to be explained by the charge than accumulates on spacecraft, and the effects this charge has in the suns EM field (or the suns plasmasphere is probably better terminology)

Let's see.

Mass = 258 kg

Acceleration = 8.74 × 10−10 m/s2

Pioneer 10 is moving at roughly 2.6 AUs per year.

December 30, 2005 Pioneer 10 was 89.7 AU away from the Sun. So now in 2008, pioneer will be approximately 97.5 AU away from the sun, or 1.46 x 1013 m.

I'll take your word for those numbers - they look reasonable.

I think we can assume that the charge on the ship will be quite small, as it is made of metal which conducts electricity quite well, and so the voltage between the craft and the surrounding space should not be too high, lets say about 10 coulombs. So using this assumption,

10 coulombs is an absolutely gargantuan charge. Two such spacecrafts 10 meters apart would exert a force on each other of 9 10^9 Newtons, which would make them accelerate at 3 million times the acceleration of gravity on earth (3,000,000 g). That's totally ridiculous - there is absolutely no way such a charge could remain on the probe. If it was embedding in the metal it would tear it to pieces in a fraction of a second. If it was on the surface it would explode outwards.

We know by F=ma that that the force on the spacecraft is 2.25x10-7
So assuming the charge built up on the spacecraft to be 10 coulombs, then using;

[latex]{Q}_{1}= \frac{4\pi{\epsilon}_{0}{r}^{2}}{{Q}_2}} [/latex]

This equation is not even wrong - it has different units on the two sides of the equals sign. Same for the next one. Also I see that you're contradicting yourself - earlier you stated the field didn't fall off with distance.

Let me do this for you correctly. Given those numbers, what you would need is that Q_sun Q_probe~10^9 C^2. Q_probe has to be much, much less than 1, for the reasons I stated above. So Q_sun much more than 10^9 Coulombs. I don't have the limits on that charge right at hand, but I would guess that exceeds them by a factor of a billion or so :).
 
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10 coulombs is an absolutely gargantuan charge. Two such spacecrafts 10 meters apart would exert a force on each other of 9 10^9 Newtons, which would make them accelerate at 3 million times the acceleration of gravity on earth (3,000,000 g). That's totally ridiculous - there is absolutely no way such a charge could remain on the probe. If it was embedding in the metal it would tear it to pieces in a fraction of a second. If it was on the surface it would explode outwards.


your right, 10 coulombs is too much for a spacecraft, I was thinking about volts but got muddled up. and to know the charge you would need to know the capacitance of the spacecraft, which we dont know. The potential could be huge, or it could be minimal, i need to find out if the spacecraft are designed to adjust quickly to the voltage of their local environment, or if they are designed to retain their charge. I would think that anything from a minimum of 1.6x10-19 to a maximum value of 1.6x10-6 would be obtainable, spacecraft are designed to withstand a lot of force.

This equation is not even wrong - it has different units on the two sides of the equals sign.




I changed it, i left out the F term, its a rearrangement of coulombs law and can be used to find the charge on a body when when one of the other charges is known; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb's_law#Scalar_form

Q_probe has to be much, much less than 1, for the reasons I stated above.



Yep, agreed.

So Q_sun much more than 10^9 Coulombs. I don't have the limits on that charge right at hand, but I would guess that exceeds them by a factor of a billion or so :).


About six orders of magnitude above if you use the max possible charge. Considering the basic nature of the calculation (not accounting for the pressure of the solar wind, momentum from particle colissions, bow shock drag, pull from planets, etc) i would say that is still an acceptable range, those missing factors could be changing the result quite substancially.
 
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About six orders of magnitude above if you use the max possible charge, which is still not a negligable. Considering the basic nature of the calculation (not accounting for the pressure of the solar wind, momentum from particle colissions, bow shock drag, pull from planets, etc) i would say that is still an acceptable range, those missing factors could be changing the result quite substancially.

You mean the max is about 10^3 C? If so, then using your number of 10^-6 for the max charge on the spacecraft, this force is too weak to explain the anomaly by a factor of a trillion.

So forget about it.

The force on a satellite near the earth would be about 10,00 times as strong, so if these estimates are correct we can forget about this as an explanation for the recently detected anomalies as well.
 
The potential could be huge, or it could be minimal, i need to find out if the spacecraft are designed to adjust quickly to the voltage of their local environment, or if they are designed to retain their charge. I would think that anything from a minimum of 1.6x10-19 to a maximum value of 1.6x10-6 would be obtainable, spacecraft are designed to withstand a lot of force.

They're designed to discharge to within a few volts; spacecraft charging is a known, dangerous effect which can lead to electronics-wrecking sparks, so it is avoided as much as possible. The net capacitance of something the size of Pioneer will be in the ballpark of ~100 picofarads so you're looking at a net charge of a few x 10^-10 Coulombs.
 
You mean the max is about 10^3 C? If so, then using your number of 10^-6 for the max charge on the spacecraft, this force is too weak to explain the anomaly by a factor of a trillion.


By using [latex]{Q}_{1}= \frac{4\pi{\epsilon}_{0}{r}^{2}F}{{Q}_2}} [/latex] with the value Q2 as 10^-6 C, like I stated previously, it ends up as,

5.33 x 1014 , (( 5.339 / 10-6 ))

which is five orderds of magnitude over the 109 value EU theorists think is likely. Not a trillion over, but i agree it is over. So when other factors are added in, maybe this force could account for it. It was a very basic electrostatics equation, there is propably much more going on than simple eletrostatics.

Another possibility is that it has moved into an area of incoming particles, travelling against the predominat flow of the solar wind, which would increase the resistive force on the spacecraft. This may account for the difference in the forces.

http://www.esa.int/esaCP/ESAGQ9Z84UC_index_0.html
SOHO’s latest surprise: Gas near the Sun heading the wrong way

20 November 2001
Mysterious clouds of gas falling towards the Sun have been spotted with the ESA-NASA SOHO spacecraft. They go against the fast-moving streams of gas that pour out continuously into space, in the solar wind.

In today’s issue of Astrophysical Journal Letters, the scientists who found them suggest that the inflows are due to frequent local adjustments to the Sun’s magnetic field. The discovery promises a better understanding of the sources of the solar magnetism that envelops the Earth, quarrels with our own planet’s field, and to some extent protects us from cosmic rays coming from the stars.



http://www.spacetoday.org/SolSys/Sun/SunGasFallsInward.html
LASCO. The inward flowing gas clouds have been found in images collected since 1996 by the Large Angle and Spectrometric Coronagraph (LASCO) instrument aboard SOHO. Altogether, some 8,000 inflow events have been logged. Most have been seen since 1998 during a time when the Sun has been at its most active with the highest numer of sunspots.


http://www.onr.navy.mil/Focus/spacesciences/research/sun.htm
Naval Research: The Sun - Inflows

Astronomers spend a lot of time studying what flows away from the Sun, such as supercharged particles, hot gases, light, heat, and other types of energy. They want to know what is coming toward the Earth so that we can learn how to protect our astronauts, satellites, and communications. Now scientists believe that by studying material that flows into the Sun, they can better understand what comes out of the Sun.

The inflowing material was not discovered until 1997, when researchers studying images from the Large-Angle Spectrometric Coronagraph (LASCO) onboard the SOHO satellite noticed gas moving toward the Sun at speeds of 31 to 62 miles per second (50 to 100 km/s). The gas was somehow moving against the powerful solar wind, which, at this distance from the Sun carries material outward at 75 miles per second (120 km/s).

Dr. Neil Sheeley and Dr. Yi-Ming Wang at the Naval Research Laboratory, in Washington, D.C., had seen material head toward the Sun before, but these inflows were different. Appearing at about 1.7 million miles (2.7 million km) above the Sun's surface, the inflows would gain speed at first, then slow as they neared the Sun, only to stop altogether about two solar radii [435,000 miles (700,000 km)] above the surface. If gravity were causing the inflows to fall, they would have sped up and traveled much faster-and they would not have stopped falling.

There seems to be a correlation between the amount of inflow events to the sun and the amount of sunspots, which i thought was interesting.
 
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By using [latex]{Q}_{1}= \frac{4\pi{\epsilon}_{0}{r}^{2}F}{{Q}_2}} [/latex] with the value Q2 as 10^-6 C, like I stated previously, it ends up as,

5.33 x 1014 , (( 5.339 / 10-6 ))

which is five orderds of magnitude over the 109 value EU theorists think is likely. Not a trillion over, but i agree it is over.

One of your own links from some time back mentions the fact that the maximum charge on the sun is about 100 Coulombs. I ran through some calculations quite some time ago for the case of 109 Coulombs, and demonstrated that such a charge would cause the excess charge to explode off the sun, reaching relativistic speeds in less than a second. 5x1014 Coulombs may only be 5 orders of magnitude (as if that's a small difference) from what the electric universe folks say is the charge, but it's more than 12 orders of magnitude larger than the actual maximum charge of the sun. How big is 12 orders of magnitude? About the difference between the radius of an atom and the length of a football field.

Another possibility is that it has moved into an area of incoming particles, travelling against the predominat flow of the solar wind, which would increase the resistive force on the spacecraft. This may account for the difference in the forces.

Maybe. Wouldn't need an electric universe model for that though.
 
which is five orderds of magnitude over the 109 value EU theorists think is likely. Not a trillion over, but i agree it is over. So when other factors are added in, maybe this force could account for it. It was a very basic electrostatics equation, there is propably much more going on than simple eletrostatics.

Another possibility is that it has moved into an area of incoming particles, travelling against the predominat flow of the solar wind, which would increase the resistive force on the spacecraft. This may account for the difference in the forces.

10^9 C is far too large for the charge on the sun. I can rule that out immediately in several different ways. The field that creates would be very easy to detect near the earth, for one thing. Zig's number of 100 C might be more like it, although that's still pretty large. And for this to work we need 10^15 using your number, or 10^19 using Ben's.

As for solar wind and particle collisions, that is one of the most probable explanations for the anomaly. It's got nothing to do with the EU.

There's a good lesson here for people that give credence to this EU stuff. We're talking about a small object very close to the sun (close relative to galactic scales), and yet to get a small correction to the acceleration due to gravity we need the sun to have a charge so large it's ruled out by a factor of more than a trillion. For EM forces to affect galactic rotation curves requires charges MUCH larger than this, because then we're talking about larger distances and we need a correction that's large compared to gravity. So you can start to see how totally impossible that is. Gravity is by far the strongest force acting over these large distances.
 
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Has anyone ever measured the charge on the sun? I dont think they have.

And that paper that suggests that the charge on the sun is 77 coulombs is very theoretical. There seems to be no other paper with decent information on other possible values for the charge, that seems to be the only one that even consideres the suns E-field, which i find annoying.

http://www.aanda.org/index.php?opti...articles/aa/full/2001/24/aah2649/aah2649.html
Abstract
As was discovered in the nineteen-twenties, a significant electric field exists in the solar corona as well as in the solar interior. This field is a consequence of the tendency of light electrons to segregate from heavier protons in the solar gravitational field. Since the principle is valid for a plasma in every star, the result can be generalized. The presented paper is intended to rehighlight this significant physical property of stars. In particular, we stress that there has to be charge Qr inside a stellar sphere with radius r, which is linearly proportional to mass Mrinside the sphere. Both quantities are related as Qr = 77.043 Mr, if Qr is given in Coulombs and Mr in solar masses. The global stellar electrostatic field is 918 times stronger than the corresponding stellar gravity and compensates for a half of the gravity, when it acts on an electron or proton, respectively. The external electric field has to cause an occurence of electric current and appropriate magnetic field in a highly conductive plasma, when, e.g., the plasma is in a turbulent motion or spirals onto a star in a hot accretion disc.


Now what they actually do to determine what the charge on the sun is they work out the minute charge separation that occurs between electrons and protons in the suns field.

[...] G is gravitational constant, and Mr is stellar mass inside the sphere of radius r. If the mass Mr is given in solar masses and charge Qr in Coulombs, then Qr = 77.043 Mr.

Inspecting the conditions assumed in the derivation procedure of the field (3) in more detail, it is clear that the result is valid for an ideally quiet, perfectly spherical, non-rotating star. Obviously real stars do not have physical properties completely identical to ideal stars and this causes the instantaneous global charge of a given star to differ from the value Q of an ideal star. Nevertheless, the star permanently tends to set up this charging and we can assume it as a rough approximation (rough but much better than exact neutrality)


So I am still of the opinion that their method for working out the charge is very theoretical, the actual value could be far in excess of their prediction, or caused by something completely different. It is a good paper however, as it demonstrates that the sun can exhibit a substantial net charge.

To find the charge on the sun you would have to take varying measurements of the strength of the E-field at separate radii and extrapolate what the strength is at the sun. So far, i don’t think any such measurements have been made.
 
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And that paper that suggests that the charge on the sun is 77 coulombs is very theoretical.

Yet you have not voiced any reason to think that their estimate is actually wrong, or named any factors which might alter the actual number from their calculation. Nor is there any reason to think that it's possible to close 12 orders of magnitude difference between the calculations and the required charge to exert the force calculated on those satellites. That's not a factor of 12, it's a factor of 1,000,000,000,000.

Now what they actually do to determine what the charge on the sun is they work out the minute charge separation that occurs between electrons and protons in the suns field.

Which will not lead to an electric field outside the sun.

So I am still of the opinion that their method for working out the charge is very theoretical, the actual value could be far in excess of their prediction, or caused by something completely different.

It doesn't matter what it's caused by. Get much above that, and there is nothing on God's green earth or his yellow sun which can keep the charge from exploding off the sun. I already did the calculations: even at 7 orders of magnitude larger, the excess charge will explode off at relativistic speeds. The idea that it could get a further factor of 100,000 above that is simply nonsense. That much charge cannot be contained.

It is a good paper however, as it demonstrates that the sun can exhibit a substantial net charge.

"Substantial"? Depends what you mean by that, I guess. It's not substantial in terms of exerting a force on a man-made satellite.

To find the charge on the sun you would have to take varying measurements of the strength of the E-field at separate radii and extrapolate what the strength is at the sun.

No, actually, you would not need to do that. One radius would be enough. Once position is actually enough, if the field is spherically symmetric, and is good enough for an order-of-magnitude estimate even if it's not.
 
Anyone have any ideas on the cause of the pioneer anomaly then, if you are ruling out the possibility of electrostatic forces?
 
Plausible explanations include (a) differential radiation pressure due to different parts of the craft having different temperatures, (b) a few volts of static charge on the spacecraft interacting with local dust molecules, (c) some bit of plastic/paint/rubber leaking gas as it falls apart chemically, and that gas acting as a thruster as it escapes. Probably a few more I haven't heard about.
 
Plausible explanations include (a) differential radiation pressure due to different parts of the craft having different temperatures,


hmm, would that really be significant?


(b) a few volts of static charge on the spacecraft interacting with local dust molecules,


Quite possible, i would think. But not just dust molecules, the ions in the solar plasma too.

(c) some bit of plastic/paint/rubber leaking gas as it falls apart chemically,


Is there any evidence of this? surely nasa would have ruled out this possibility, or else accepted it as the cause.
 
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Our own galaxy has a object at its center with a mass of 2.6 million solar masses and a radius of no more than 1 AU.(http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~ghezgroup/gc/journey/blackHole.shtml). Only a black hole could be that massive and small.

Are you sure? Perhaps there's another explanation.

One that doesn't involve gnomes.

One that the mainstream has just ignored.

Have you ever heard of a plasmoid? A plasmoid exists where converging filaments of current form a tight, magnetically confined ball of plasma. Here's a graphic of what happens in a z-pinch: http://www.eastlundscience.com/sitebuilder/images/Focus_Fusion-292x211.jpg . It shows all the filaments coming together at the center ... in a very dense plasmoid.

Eric Lerner draws a comparison between focus fusion devices, which employ z-pinch physics to create plasmoids, and quasars that the mainstream claims are huge black holes at the center of galaxies that happen to have large amounts of matter falling into them. He expresses plasma cosmology's explanation for the source of energy in a quasar thus. It is "the rotational energy of an entire galaxy, augmented by the gravitational energy released as the galaxy contracts," "converted to electrical power by the disk-generator action and concentrated in the smaller filaments moving towards the galaxy core." A nice neat model with no gnomes. But can the density of such a plasmoid be high enough to account for the observations that have led mainstream astrophysicists to conclude there is a blackhole?

Well, according to http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2004/sagastar/ the current Milky Way black hole mass estimate is actually 4 million suns. And it's supposedly now only 14 million miles across ... i.e., it would fit inside the orbit of Mercury which orbits at about a third of an AU from the sun. The fact that the mass estimate has almost doubled in just a few years yet the radius estimate has shrunk by a third is perhaps an indication of how uncertain they really are about the characteristics of this particular black hole. But the above source gives an even better clue as to the estimate's precision.

First, it quotes one of the researchers saying "we had to push our technique really hard" to even make the observations. Hmmm. Usually when one pushes techniques hard uncertainty is introduced. And, in fact, it notes that the "The precision of these observations allows the scientists to say that a mass of at least 40,000 Suns has to reside in a space corresponding to the size of the Earth's orbit." So if their best estimate is 4 million suns but their lower bound is only 40,000 suns, that means there is quite a range of uncertainty in the estimate.

And I suspect a galactic sized plasmoid would almost definitely lie well within that mass range. Gravity from a galactic sized plasmoid might therefore cause the stellar motions from which a black hole has been deduced. So these latest observations do NOT rule out the plasma cosmology model. Mainstream astrophysicists have simply ignored it ... AGAIN.

And are there other observations to suggest the electric universe homopolar/z-pinch model of galaxies is correct, rather than the black hole model? Well, check out the book "Colliding Galaxies: The Universe in Turmoil" by Barry Parker, copyright 1990. A section titled "Filaments" shows evidence of the type of currents and magnetic fields postulated by plasma cosmologists. Even back in 1990 they had direct evidence of these ... unlike dark matter and dark energy.

Parker wrote the following: "Another strange feature of the central region is the presence of huge filaments. In 1984 Mark Morris of UCLA and Farhad Yusef- Zadeh and Don Chance of Columbia University, using the VLA, discovered three enormous parallel arks of gas approximately 10-20 light-years thick. They are over 150 light-years long and project out from the plane of the disk. Studies soon showed that arcs of this type had to be composed of high-speed particles trapped by extremely strong magnetic fields. ... at this time we still do not know what causes them." "Soon after these filaments were discovered, much larger filaments were discovered by a Japanese team of radio astronomers of the University of Tokyo's Radio Observatory. They are horseshoe- shaped, and rise about 700 light-years above the galactic plane. They resemble the giant arches of gas that are sometimes seen on the sun, but they are, of course, billions of times larger. It is believed that they are high-speed particles trapped in magnetic fields."

Note that there is an artist's illustration in the book depicting the core region. What struck me back then is that it looks very much like the plasmoid model that Lerner had in his book "The Big Bang Never Happened" for galaxies and quasars. In other words, it depicts multiple filaments that fountain out of a small central core then loop around and reenter on the opposite side of the core ... just like Alfven, Lerner and Peratt postulated back then. Because Plasma Cosmology could explain the filaments more than two decades ago with a highly coherent model, this should count as a prediction by plasma cosmologists that's been satisfied. After all, Lerner submitted his paper describing such features in galaxies well before the VLA results were ever published.

And other galaxies display similar evidence of such a homopolar motor structure. For example, British astronomers recently discovered a giant "magnetic bubble" around M82 (http://images.google.com/imgres?img...images?q=m82+magnetic+bubble&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=X). Of course, the astrophysicists in question talk about winds and magnetism and miss the real cause ... electric current. And miss the fact they are seeing Birkeland currents which explain the filaments. The diagram of M82 they produced is almost identical to that theorized for galaxies by Eric Lerner in his book.

In fact, NASA's Astronomy Picture Of the Day " The Galactic Center - A Radio Mystery" (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990128.html ) admits that the arcs, threads and filaments which abound in the Milky Way's central region "challenge present theories of the dynamics of the galactic center." But only because present theories don't include Birkeland currents and homopolar motors.

And there are other recent observations in the core region that apparently surprise mainstream astrophysicists. For example ...

http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/05_releases/press_101305.html "Stars Form Surprisingly Close to Milky Way's Black Hole, October 13, 2005 ... snip ... Until the latest Chandra results, astronomers have disagreed about the origin of a mysterious group of massive stars discovered by infrared astronomers to be orbiting less than a light year from the Milky Way's central black hole, a.k.a. Sagittarius A*, or Sgr A*. At such close distances to Sgr A*, the standard model for star formation predicts that gas clouds from which stars form should have been ripped apart by tidal forces from the black hole." Yet, "'We can now say that the stars around Sgr A* were not deposited there by some passing star cluster, rather they were born there,' said Sunyaev . 'There have been theories that this was possible, but this is the first real evidence. Many scientists are going to be very surprised by these results.'" No doubt. But they'll accept them ... as long as the major gnomes remain intact. :) Never mind that plasma cosmologists aren't surprised to find stars forming near the core. That would be expected to happen in their model. ;)

Here's another example showing how mainstream astrophysicists choose to invent more gnomes rather than look to EM for explanations for what they see:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,243130,00.html "Giant Black Hole at Center of Milky Way Grabs Planet-Sized Snack, Thursday, January 11, 2007 ... snip ... An ancient X-ray outburst from the supermassive black hole at the center of our Milky Way galaxy caused surrounding gas clouds to glow brightly in a cosmic light show that is only now being detected. The output likely involved the consumption of a snack equal in mass to the planet Mercury, researchers said here yesterday at the 209th meeting of the American Astronomical Society."

Now I bet they never even considered the PC/EU explanation for glowing "gas" clouds. After all, these researchers are certain there's a black hole surrounded by "swirling clouds" of "gas" "blown in by stellar winds." The cause is perfectly obvious in that case. (sarcasm) :rolleyes:

And then there's this from the same source. "Sagittarius A* is unusually faint for a galactic supermassive black hole. ... snip ... Why our black hole is so dim is not entirely understood. 'This faintness implies that stars and gas rarely get close enough to the black hole to be in any danger," said study team member Frederick Baganoff of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology."

Hard to believe stars rarely get close enough ... especially when at the same time the mainstream claims there are millions of them within a light year of the black hole. And it's not just one black hole all these stars apparently have to avoid ...

http://spacespin.org/article.php/chandra_black_hole_swarm "Chandra finds a black hole swarm near Milky Way center, Sunday, January 16 2005 ... snip ... Among the thousands of X-ray sources detected within 70 light years of Sgr A*, Muno and his colleagues searched for those most likely to be active black holes and neutron stars by selecting only the brightest sources that also exhibited large variations in their X-ray output. ... snip ... Of the seven sources that met these criteria, four are within three light years of Sgr A*."

Four black holes within 3 LY of the central black hole? Note that number apparently surprised them. "Although the region around Sgr A* is crowded with stars, we expected that there was only a 20 percent chance that we would find even one X-ray binary within a three-light-year radius," said Muno."

But wait ... it gets worse. "From the estimated number of stars and black holes in the Galactic Center region, dynamical friction is expected to produce a dense swarm of 20,000 black holes within three light years of Sgr A*. A similar effect is at work for neutron stars, but to a lesser extent because they have a lower mass. Once black holes are concentrated near Sgr A*, they will have numerous close encounters with normal stars".

But don't worry ... they still have an explanation for why the Milky way is relatively quiet. "[T]he acceleration of low-mass stars by black holes will eject low-mass stars from the central region. This expulsion will reduce the likelihood that normal stars will be captured by the central supermassive black hole. This may explain why the central regions of some galaxies, including the Milky Way, are fairly quiet even though they contain a supermassive black hole." They also theorize a recent supernova cleared all the gas out of the region surrounding the central black hole. :D

So while the mainstream has the black hole (that they can't see) all figured out, an explanation for what they can see is still lacking. :)

For example (from http://scienceweek.com/2005/sw051125-5.htm ) "The following points are made by T.J. Lazio and T.N. LaRosa (Science 2005 307:686): ... snip ... even the basic properties of a key component of the galactic center, its magnetic field, remain poorly understood. ... snip ... Magnetic fields have the potential to transform, store, and explosively release energy, to transport angular momentum, and to confine high-energy plasmas into powerful jet flows. They are therefore central to astrophysical activity from stellar to galactic scales. ... snip ... approximately 20 years ago, the first high-resolution radio images of the galactic center revealed numerous magnetic structures that are unique to the galactic center. The most striking of these is the galactic center radio arc, a series of parallel linear filaments, each of which is merely a few light years wide yet more than 100 light years long. Also observed were a number of isolated linear features that were variously referred to as streaks, threads, and filaments. The relation between these isolated filaments and the bundled filaments of the radio arc remains unknown."

Maybe they'd learn something if they actually tried to figure that out? Do you suppose? And while they are researching that ... maybe they should ask themselves whether the energy output of the core and quasars is proof of black holes? Because it is an interesting fact that plasmoids also produce jets with the same characteristics observed coming from quasars and active galaxies. In fact, without those jets, galaxies won't even form because they can't shed the angular momentum. That's the same problem that stars have in forming ... which is why they also produce jets ... even without black holes. :)

Anthony Peratt proved in simulations (see his paper "The Role of Particle Beams and Electrical Currents in the Plasma Universe at the link I provided in the previous post on filaments) back in 1986 that z-pinches can easily produce synchrotron jets with the power observed in astronomical objects like the double radio galaxy Cygnus A. And the simulations show the duration of the radiation burst can be millions of years ... just as is apparently the case in the 3C273 jet. And isn't it ironic that this mechanism for producing synchrotron radiation was first brought to the attention of astronomers back in 1950 by Hannes Alfven (http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/synchrotron.html) who was actually the first to recognize radiation from astronomical sources as synchrotron radiation. They just ignored him back them ... just like they are ignoring the plasma cosmology explanation now. Even so, let history record that one might view this as another successful prediction by plasma cosmology. No need to invent black holes, neutron stars and magnetic reconnection to do it.

There is also plenty of evidence of stellar-sized black holes.

Are you sure? :D
 
Black holes are not gnomes-like.What do you think we have in the center of our galaxy?

See my post above.

Neutron stars were observed

No, only inferred. Inferred from observations that can be explained using known and demonstrable plasma and EM phenomena. For example:

Electrical engineer Donald Scott in his book "Electric Sky" says the phenomenon that gives pulsars their name (rapidly pulsed radio signals) "is produced electrically (much like a radio station)." He says "In the plasma that surrounds a star (or planet) there are conducting paths whose sizes and shapes are controlled by the magnetic field structure of the body. Those conducting paths are giant electrical transmission lines and can be analyzed as such. Depending on the electrical properties of what is connected to the ends of electrical transmission lines, it is possible for pulses of current and voltage (and therefore power) to oscillate back and forth from one end to the other. The ends can both be on the same object (as occurs on Earth) or one end might be on one member of a closely spaced binary pair of stars and the other end on the other member of the pair similar to the "flux tube" connecting Jupiter and its inner moon, Io."

Scott goes on to note that in 1995 several super computer simulations were performed on a transmission line system model with properties believed to be those of a pulsar atmosphere and the results matched seventeen different observed emission properties. The 1995 analysis he refers to is "Radiation Properties of Pulsar Magnetospheres: Observation, Theory, and Experiment" by Kevin Healy and Anthony Peratt (http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/downloads/HealyPeratt1995.pdf ). Healy and Peratt concluded, “Our results support the ‘planetary magnetosphere’ view, where the extent of the magnetosphere, not emission points on a rotating surface, determines the pulsar emission. In other words, we do not require a hypothetical super-condensed object to form a pulsar. A normal stellar remnant undergoing periodic discharges will suffice. Plasma cosmology has the virtue of not requiring neutron stars or black holes (BAC - or quark stars) to explain compact sources of radiation."

And what about the jets? Here is an image of the Vela Pulsar

http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/Images/objects/heapow/compact_objects/vela_pulsar_jet.jpg

Big Bang advocates claim the jets result from their magnetic reconnection physics. Plasma cosmologists say the jet is produced by the same phenomena created in what's called a focus fusion device here on earth. In a focus fusion device a plasmoid forms and stores energy. When the plasmoid reaches a critical energy level, it discharges its energy in a collimated jet along its axis in the form of electromagnetic radiation and neutrons. Being unstable outside a nucleus, the neutrons soon decay into protons and electrons. The electrons are held back by the electromagnetic field, and the high-speed protons are beamed away. The process can be repeated over and over at very high frequencies. Here is a diagram of such a device with the plasma discharge on the right:

http://www.holoscience.com/views/img/lasma_focus.gif

Here's an animation you can watch of a focus fusion device in action.

http://focusfusion.org/assets/animation/Foki1a2.gif

Not only do the "bow-like" arcs observed in the Vela Pulsar have the same shape as the discharge from this device but the plasma filaments that form in a focus fusion device look a lot like the circuit diagram envisioned by Hannes Alfven to explain what is going on in and around stars and galaxies.

Plasma cosmologists note (http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/arch/040920pulsar.htm ) that "astronomers expected that the 'rotation' (pulsing) of the neutron star--conceived as an isolated mass in space -- would slow at a consistent rate.* But then they observed a significant 'glitch' in the pulse rate, an event that 'released a burst of energy that was carried outward at near the speed of light by the pulsar wind.' Of course, unpredictable variations in both the pulse rate and intensity of an electrically discharging Pulsar would be expected with any changes in the electrical environment through which it moved. Proponents of the electric model are particularly impressed by the two embedded 'bows' seen along the polar jet ... snip ... . Astronomers initially called these 'windbow shocks', a theorized mechanical effect of high-velocity material encountering the interstellar medium. But electrical theorists recognized a configuration common to intense plasma discharge in laboratory experiments: toruses or rings stacked along the polar axis of the discharge. And subsequent enhanced pictures ... snip ... made clear that the 'bows' were in fact stacked toruses, not easily explained in gravitational terms."

And this is not the only pulsar example where plasma cosmologists seem to have a better explanation of the observations than Big Bang proponents. Consider the Crab Nebula pulsar. Here are photos of that object:

http://www.seds.org/messier/Pics/Jpg/m1pulsar.jpg

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_ciencia/sol01_07.jpg

The shape is consistent with a homopolar motor ... the electrical circuit concept that plasma cosmologists (like Alfven) use to explain stars and galaxies. And the concept as envisioned by Alfven included double layers along the axis of rotation of the object with the known property of producing jets. And some plasma theorists also speculate that a plasmoid forms at the center of such an object. The bottom line is that known physics can produce what is seen. Neutron stars aren't needed and prior to the observation the jets and pulsar emissions, had been theoretically dismissed.

Furthermore, there are problems with the neutron star model, just as there are problems with the black hole model. Now they are having to introduce "quark stars" to explain some of the neutron star observations. See http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/new_matter_020410.html . It seems that every time one turns around, Big Bang supporting astronomers and astrophysicists are adding yet another deduced, untestable, magic gnome to their celestial zoo.
 
WMAP's just released their five-year data set and it's still an excellent fit to LCDM.

Excellent fit? Did you just miss this, edd? The WMAP data suggests the CMB is not coming from behind galactic clusters like it must if it's a relic of the Big Bang.

http://www.physorg.com/news76314500.html "September 01, 2006, ... snip ... In a finding sure to cause controversy, scientists at The University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH) found a lack of evidence of shadows from "nearby" clusters of galaxies using new, highly accurate measurements of the cosmic microwave background. A team of UAH scientists led by Dr. Richard Lieu, a professor of physics, used data from NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) to scan the cosmic microwave background for shadows caused by 31 clusters of galaxies. "These shadows are a well-known thing that has been predicted for years," said Lieu. "This is the only direct method of determining the distance to the origin of the cosmic microwave background. Up to now, all the evidence that it originated from as far back in time as the Big Bang fireball has been circumstantial. ... snip ... If the standard Big Bang theory of the universe is accurate and the background microwave radiation came to Earth from the furthest edges of the universe, then massive X-ray emitting clusters of galaxies nearest our own Milky Way galaxy should all cast shadows on the microwave background. These findings are scheduled to be published in the Sept. 1, 2006, edition of the Astrophysical Journal. Taken together, the data shows a shadow effect about one-fourth of what was predicted - an amount roughly equal in strength to natural variations previously seen in the microwave background across the entire sky. Either it (the microwave background) isn't coming from behind the clusters, which means the Big Bang is blown away, or ... there is something else going on," said Lieu. "One possibility is to say the clusters themselves are microwave emitting sources, either from an embedded point source or from a halo of microwave-emitting material that is part of the cluster environment." "Based on all that we know about radiation sources and halos around clusters, however, you wouldn't expect to see this kind of emission. And it would be implausible to suggest that several clusters could all emit microwaves at just the right frequency and intensity to match the cosmic background radiation."

I can't see how you could have missed that:

http://www.moondaily.com/reports/Big_Bang_Afterglow_Fails_An_Intergalactic_Shadow_Test_999.html "The apparent absence of shadows where shadows were expected to be is raising new questions about the faint glow of microwave radiation once hailed as proof that the universe was created by a "Big Bang."

http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=800 "Where Have All the Shadows Gone?"

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060911_mystery_monday.html "A study of nearby galaxy clusters has failed to detect distortions in the ancient microwave radiation many scientists have linked to the creation of our universe."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060905104549.htm "Big Bang's Afterglow Fails an Intergalactic Shadow Test"

And say, ... what's this? This also has to do with CMB and WMAP.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070823_huge_hole.html "The universe has a huge hole in it that dwarfs anything else of its kind. The discovery caught astronomers by surprise. The hole is nearly a billion light-years across. It is not a black hole, which is a small sphere of densely packed matter. Rather, this one is mostly devoid of stars, gas and other normal matter, and it's also strangely empty of the mysterious "dark matter" that permeates the cosmos. Other space voids have been found before, but nothing on this scale. Astronomers don't know why the hole is there. ... snip ... The region had been previously been dubbed the "WMAP Cold Spot," because it stood out in a map of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) radiation made by NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotopy Probe (WMAP) satellite. The CMB is an imprint of radiation left from the Big Bang, the theoretical beginning of the universe."

http://www.trustedlog.com/2007/11/26/parallel-universe-exists-we-have-evidence/ "Last August, astronomers working on the analysis of data being acquired by NASA’s WMAP (Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe) satellite announced that they found a huge void in the universe. A void is a region of space that has much less material (stars, nebulae, dust and other material) than the average. Since our universe is relatively heterogeneous, empty spaces are not rare, but in this case the enormous magnitude of the hole is way outside the expected range. The hole found in the constellation of Eridanus is about a billion light years across, which is roughly 10,000 times as large as our galaxy or 400 times the distance to Andromeda, the closest “large” galaxy. The dimension of the hole is so big that at first glance, it results impossible to explain under the current cosmological theories, although scientists put forward some explanations based on certain theoretical models that might predict the existence of “giant knots” in space known as topological defects. However, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill physics Professor Laura Mersini-Houghton made a staggering claim. She says, “Standard cosmology cannot explain such a giant cosmic hole” and goes further with the ground-breaking hypothesis that the huge void is “… the unmistakable imprint of another universe beyond the edge of our own“"

And the problems with CMB and WMAP data just don't quit.

Glenn Starkman of Case Western Reserve University has discovered some characteristics in the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) data that have serious consequences for the Standard Model. http://burro.astr.cwru.edu/dept/Talks/starkman.shtml Far from having the smooth, Gaussian distribution predicted by Big Bang, the microwave picture has distinct anisotropies, and what’s more says Starkman, they are clearly aligned with local astrophysical structures, particularly the ecliptic of the Solar System. Once the dipole harmonic is stripped to remove the effect of the motion of the Solar System, the other harmonics, quadrupole, octopole, and so on reveal a distinct alignment with local objects. The quadrupole and octopole power is concentrated on a ring around the sky and are essentially zero along a preferred axis. The direction of this axis is identical with the direction toward the Virgo cluster and lies exactly along the axis of the Local Supercluster filament of which our Galaxy is a part. This observation completely contradicts the Big Bang assumption that the CBR originated far from the local Supercluster and is, on the largest scale, isotropic without a preferred direction in space.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/C...e_Of_Radiation_In_Interstellar_Space_999.html "Cosmological Data Affected By An Unexpected Source Of Radiation In Interstellar Space ... Nov 13, 2007, The widely lauded discovery of small-scale structure in the cosmic microwave background may be seriously affected by a previously unidentified source of radio emission in our own Milky Way Galaxy. This is the conclusion arrived at by Dr. Gerrit Verschuur, Adjunct Professor of Physics at the University of Memphis. His work will be published in the December 10 issue of the Astrophysical Journal. Verschuur was studying data from the first ever all-sky survey of interstellar neutral hydrogen (HI) when he noticed intriguing similarities to the structure observed by the Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) spacecraft. ... snip ... The new discovery, if confirmed, means that the structure superimposed on the cosmic microwave background is produced in the Milky Way and does not have a cosmic origin. Thus the cosmic microwave background signal from the early universe may be smoother than anyone expected, which raises new questions as to how structure ever emerged in the universe to create galaxies."

http://space.newscientist.com/article/mg19425994.000-axis-of-evil-a-cause-for-cosmic-concern.html: "'Axis of evil' a cause for cosmic concern, 13 April 2007, New Scientist, Zeeya Merali, *... snip ... According to the standard model, the universe is isotropic, or much the same everywhere. However, in 2005, Kate Land and João Magueijo of Imperial College London noticed a curious pattern in the map of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) created by NASA's WMAP satellite. It seemed to show that some hot and cold spots in the CMB are not distributed randomly, as expected, but are aligned along what Magueijo dubbed the axis of evil. ... snip ... Now, two independent studies seem to confirm that it does exist. Damien Hutsemékers of the University of Liège in Belgium analysed the polarisation of light from 355 quasars and found that as the quasars get near the axis, the polarisation becomes more ordered than expected. Taken together, the polarisation angles from the quasars seem to corkscrew around the axis. ... snip ... The quasar finding has support from another study, however. Michael Longo of the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor analysed 1660 spiral galaxies from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey and found that the axes of rotation of most galaxies appear to line up with the axis of evil (www.arxiv.org/astro-ph/0703325). According to Longo, the probability of this happening by chance is less than 0.4 per cent. "This suggests the axis is real, and not simply an error in the WMAP data," he says."

And how are mainstream scientists trying to explain this last one away? By altering one of their gnomes: inflation. From the above article "Contaldi and his colleagues Emir Gümrükçüo?lu and Marco Peloso at the University of Minnesota, in Minneapolis, modified inflation to allow the universe to expand more in one direction. "Provided inflation stops at a relatively early point, this would leave traces of the early [unevenness] in the form of the axis of evil," he says." Or by inventing a new gnome. "Longo favours a more radical theory proposed by Paolo Cea of the University of Bari, in Italy, and Leonardo Campanelli of the University of Ferrara, Italy, which suggests that magnetic fields stretched across the universe could be responsible (New Scientist, 2 September 2006, p 28). "A magnetic field would naturally orient the spiral galaxies," says Longo."

:D
 
Yes yes yes. I'm familiar with all those concerns. They don't change the fundamental fact that the data fits brilliantly. There's a few astronomical questions remaining, but none of such a major level that you'd question the overall point. Which is that the data is brilliantly explainable by a surprisingly simple model.

I mean it's like saying that DNA can't possibly be responsible for encoding the information to form proteins because there's a couple of inheritable diseases we haven't entirely figured out yet. It's just plain daft.
 
---I had to take out entire quote,since it contains links and is huge and there is not enough time for me to divide that.(and simple reply would not have link back to his original post!) ...(Sorry BAC)----

When you call black holes gnomes,let me call your plasma things gnomes as well.Both are according to YOUR posts and word-use just theories.

About possible changing neutron stars to something(!) from EU or PU is quite interesting.However using theory,which relies on electricity,which most probably will violate at least part of Maxwell's equations,that is bit too bad,since it is more prone to get falsified by next experiments...

Oh,and have you considered asking CAH for assistance?As I said,they can rather quickly get thing verified(or falsified :-) ) against known datas.And please,no CT,no locked minds and such...
 
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Which is that the data is brilliantly explainable by a surprisingly simple model.

Simple? You call a model with singularities, inflation, dark matter in half a dozen varieties, *something* called dark energy, black holes, and EM physics not recognized by those outside astrophysics simple? ROTFLOL!
 
When you call black holes gnomes,let me call your plasma things gnomes as well.

Plasmoids aren't gnomes. We can actually create them in labs here on earth. Now MAYBE the LHC will create black holes. Hope not. ;)

However using theory,which relies on electricity,which most probably will violate at least part of Maxwell's equations

Any proof of this? Those calculations I sourced were done by electrical engineers and plasma physicists quite familiar with Maxwell's equations using (in some cases) codes that incorporated Maxwell's equations.

Oh,and have you considered asking CAH for assistance?

What should I ask them? How should I phrase it?
 
Simple? You call a model with singularities, inflation, dark matter in half a dozen varieties, *something* called dark energy, black holes, and EM physics not recognized by those outside astrophysics simple? ROTFLOL!

We've been through this before, BAC. Magnetic reconnection doesn't require any violation of Gauss's law. Your continued assertion to the contrary, after having a PROOF shown to you, makes you a liar.
 
Big surprise, we've been here before...


Has anyone ever measured the charge on the sun? I dont think they have.

And that paper that suggests that the charge on the sun is 77 coulombs is very theoretical. There seems to be no other paper with decent information on other possible values for the charge, that seems to be the only one that even consideres the suns E-field, which i find annoying.

http://www.aanda.org/index.php?opti...articles/aa/full/2001/24/aah2649/aah2649.html


This is a point that I have made repeatedly about Zeuzzz's referencing of this paper - he does so quite dishonestly. I originally posted about this way back in post #18.

He presents this as some kind of "evidence" for his plasma/electric/crack-pipe universe claims, but he intentionally leaves out a critical observation by the authors. While the paper does argue for the existence of a net charge on the Sun, in the middle of the second page of that paper, the authors state:

"We can also demonstrate that the electrostatic interaction between two idealized stars charged with the electrostatic charges, derived here, is extremely weak compared to gravity. The magnitude of electrostatic force represents only about 10−36 of the magnitude of gravity. However, if we study the dynamics of an electrically charged elementary particle or ion, with mass mx and charge qx, then the electrostatic force acting between this particle and charge Qr is −qx(mp−me)=(2qmx) multiple of gravitational force. Thus, the magnitude of the force represents about 50% of the magnitude of gravity, if the star acts on proton, and it is about 918 times more intensive than gravity, if the star acts on electron."

See that?! The effect is only large if acting on individual charges (protons, electrons, and ions). The authors of the very paper Zeuzzz keeps citing for "evidence" of the electric universe say that over large distance scales (interstellar) the electrical effects they are discussing are weaker than gravity by 36 orders of magnitude!

Now, 36 orders of magnitude is pretty damned big - not quite as big as the woo-idiocy I've seen displayed on this thread, but still...

So, Zeuzzz is claiming that this paper supports his EU claims by inferring that if such an effect exists on the Pioneer probe then just imagine the effects elsewhere, which supposedly explain large-scale structures in the universe over million and billions of light-years. Yet the paper clearly doesn't support these claims, so why does he keep referencing it?
 
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Plasmoids aren't gnomes. We can actually create them in labs here on earth. Now MAYBE the LHC will create black holes. Hope not. ;)


Wow, so now black holes are a fiction in addition to dark energy & the big bang cosmology. For those still following this descent into an abyss of giggling stupidity, please note the following contradictions inherent in these arguments...

1. The EU-PU woos posting here admit that general relativity (Einstein's theory of gravity) is a well-established and tested theory.

2. They maintain that big bang cosmology "is a joke."

3. They now, apparently, maintain that black holes are also a fiction.

Here it comes...

4. They neglect to note that general relativity predicted both the big bang cosmology (including dark energy in the form of a "cosmological constant") AND black holes. If you are going to throw out BBC and BHs, then you also have to get rid of GR as well, the very theory of gravity which predicts and explains these phenomena.

So, how is this line of argument not a contradiction in the very arguments which they themselves are making? And why do they never acknowledge the contradiction, much less address or resolve it?

That alone is enough to tell you where they're coming from, and it ain't this reality...
 
When you call black holes gnomes,let me call your plasma things gnomes as well.Both are according to YOUR posts and word-use just theories.


Electric universe and plasma cosmology "is not a fact, it's just a theory."

See?! We can play stupid woo word games too :D
 
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I mean it's like saying that DNA can't possibly be responsible for encoding the information to form proteins because there's a couple of inheritable diseases we haven't entirely figured out yet. It's just plain daft.


It reminds me of when creationists try to poke holes in evolution by noting the gaps in the fossil record. And it's just as dumb.
 
Wow, so now black holes are a fiction in addition to dark energy & the big bang cosmology.

I can't help but notice that you completely ran from my response to your last post of this sort ... #127 ... which I clearly destroyed in posts #142 and #144. But you want to try again? Sure. :)

3. They now, apparently, maintain that black holes are also a fiction.

I've not said black holes are necessarily a fiction (although has anyone actually seen one?) ... just their ubiquitous use to explain away every little unexplainable observation Big Bang encounters. Especially when other physics is already available that would seem to explain those observations. Plus the fact that they now seem to number as many as stars in the heaven. :D

4. They neglect to note that general relativity predicted both the big bang cosmology (including dark energy in the form of a "cosmological constant") AND black holes.

Actually, general relativity did not "predict" dark energy. Lambda was actually added to the equation by Einstein in order to make the universe static. And for no other reason.

And far as it "predicting" black holes is concerned, Einstein actually said that a theory that incorporates the existance of singularities should be avoided. One month after the black hole concept was first introduced in 1939 by Oppenheimer and a graduate student, Einstein wrote a paper ("On a stationary system with spherical symmetry consisting of many gravitating masses", Annals of Mathematics, Oct. 1939, vol 40, No 4, pp 922-936) wherein he stated (calling black holes "Schwartzschild singularities") that "The essential result of this investigation is a clear understanding as to why the ‘Schwartzschild singularities’ do not exist in physical reality."

And here is what Einstein wrote in 1945 (Albert Einstein, The Meaning of Relativity) regarding the big-bang singularity: "Theoretical doubts [concerning the creation of the universe] are based on the fact that [at the] beginning of the expansion, the metric becomes singular and the density becomes infinite. . . In reality, space will probably be of a uniform character, and the present [relativity] theory will be valid only as a limiting case. . . One may not therefore assume the validity of the equations for very high density of field and of matter, and one may not conclude that the 'beginning of the expansion' must mean a singularity in the mathematical sense. All we have to realize is that the equations may not be continued over such regions."

So it's probably inaccurate to claim GR predicted black holes or BBC. :D

If you are going to throw out BBC and BHs, then you also have to get rid of GR as well

No, you need only adopt either Narlikar's QSSC or SCC cosmology. Both still adhere to GR but both do not require a BB or ubiquitous BHs. :D
 
Are you sure? Perhaps there's another explanation.

One that doesn't involve gnomes.

One that the mainstream has just ignored.

Have you ever heard of a plasmoid? A plasmoid exists where converging filaments of current form a tight, magnetically confined ball of plasma. Here's a graphic of what happens in a z-pinch: http://www.eastlundscience.com/sitebuilder/images/Focus_Fusion-292x211.jpg . It shows all the filaments coming together at the center ... in a very dense plasmoid.

Eric Lerner draws a comparison between focus fusion devices, which employ z-pinch physics to create plasmoids, and quasars that the mainstream claims are huge black holes at the center of galaxies that happen to have large amounts of matter falling into them. He expresses plasma cosmology's explanation for the source of energy in a quasar thus. It is "the rotational energy of an entire galaxy, augmented by the gravitational energy released as the galaxy contracts," "converted to electrical power by the disk-generator action and concentrated in the smaller filaments moving towards the galaxy core." A nice neat model with no gnomes. But can the density of such a plasmoid be high enough to account for the observations that have led mainstream astrophysicists to conclude there is a blackhole?

Well, according to http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2004/sagastar/ the current Milky Way black hole mass estimate is actually 4 million suns. And it's supposedly now only 14 million miles across ... i.e., it would fit inside the orbit of Mercury which orbits at about a third of an AU from the sun. The fact that the mass estimate has almost doubled in just a few years yet the radius estimate has shrunk by a third is perhaps an indication of how uncertain they really are about the characteristics of this particular black hole. But the above source gives an even better clue as to the estimate's precision.

First, it quotes one of the researchers saying "we had to push our technique really hard" to even make the observations. Hmmm. Usually when one pushes techniques hard uncertainty is introduced. And, in fact, it notes that the "The precision of these observations allows the scientists to say that a mass of at least 40,000 Suns has to reside in a space corresponding to the size of the Earth's orbit." So if their best estimate is 4 million suns but their lower bound is only 40,000 suns, that means there is quite a range of uncertainty in the estimate.

And I suspect a galactic sized plasmoid would almost definitely lie well within that mass range. Gravity from a galactic sized plasmoid might therefore cause the stellar motions from which a black hole has been deduced. So these latest observations do NOT rule out the plasma cosmology model. Mainstream astrophysicists have simply ignored it ... AGAIN.
Oh i see, no numbers, no data, just your guess that it can do that.

How much mass does this plasmoid have, give us a ball park, and then explain the math that holds it together.

then be sure to change the subject and never answer the question.

All we have here is your GUESS, so while you attack other people figures you just pull a rabbit out of your hat and say "Presto chango, I say so!"
And are there other observations to suggest the electric universe homopolar/z-pinch model of galaxies is correct, rather than the black hole model?
Change subject, flap arms widely.

you haven't shown that a plasmoid can do what is observed to happen, but gosh, LOOK OVER THERE!
Well, check out the book "Colliding Galaxies: The Universe in Turmoil" by Barry Parker, copyright 1990. A section titled "Filaments" shows evidence of the type of currents and magnetic fields postulated by plasma cosmologists. Even back in 1990 they had direct evidence of these ... unlike dark matter and dark energy.

Parker wrote the following: "Another strange feature of the central region is the presence of huge filaments. In 1984 Mark Morris of UCLA and Farhad Yusef- Zadeh and Don Chance of Columbia University, using the VLA, discovered three enormous parallel arks of gas approximately 10-20 light-years thick. They are over 150 light-years long and project out from the plane of the disk. Studies soon showed that arcs of this type had to be composed of high-speed particles trapped by extremely strong magnetic fields. ... at this time we still do not know what causes them." "Soon after these filaments were discovered, much larger filaments were discovered by a Japanese team of radio astronomers of the University of Tokyo's Radio Observatory. They are horseshoe- shaped, and rise about 700 light-years above the galactic plane. They resemble the giant arches of gas that are sometimes seen on the sun, but they are, of course, billions of times larger. It is believed that they are high-speed particles trapped in magnetic fields."

Note that there is an artist's illustration in the book depicting the core region. What struck me back then is that it looks very much like the plasmoid model that Lerner had in his book "The Big Bang Never Happened" for galaxies and quasars. In other words, it depicts multiple filaments that fountain out of a small central core then loop around and reenter on the opposite side of the core ... just like Alfven, Lerner and Peratt postulated back then. Because Plasma Cosmology could explain the filaments more than two decades ago with a highly coherent model, this should count as a prediction by plasma cosmologists that's been satisfied. After all, Lerner submitted his paper describing such features in galaxies well before the VLA results were ever published.
Oh , a fictional picture shows what you like.

How about some math BAC?

How about some data to back your imaginary desire.
And other galaxies display similar evidence of such a homopolar motor structure. For example, British astronomers recently discovered a giant "magnetic bubble" around M82 (http://images.google.com/imgres?img...images?q=m82+magnetic+bubble&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=X). Of course, the astrophysicists in question talk about winds and magnetism and miss the real cause ... electric current. And miss the fact they are seeing Birkeland currents which explain the filaments. The diagram of M82 they produced is almost identical to that theorized for galaxies by Eric Lerner in his book.
Still nothing about the orbits of stars in the center of the galaxy, flapping noted
In fact, NASA's Astronomy Picture Of the Day " The Galactic Center - A Radio Mystery" (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990128.html ) admits that the arcs, threads and filaments which abound in the Milky Way's central region "challenge present theories of the dynamics of the galactic center." But only because present theories don't include Birkeland currents and homopolar motors.

And there are other recent observations in the core region that apparently surprise mainstream astrophysicists. For example ...
You know what would suprise me BAC, if you had a shred of credibility, you would start to produce numbers , like proof that a plasmoid could do what you think it can.

Or even better:

What size would a magnetic field have to have to move the sun per Perrat's model BAC?
Is there a magnetic field that size observed

Can you answer questions or just line up your gnomes and pretend that they can do the conga?

While you are at it, why not address the sampling error in the way Arp determined an association between galaxies and QSOs.

Why is it when it comes to hard figures, you are about as hard to see as dark matter?
http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/05_releases/press_101305.html "Stars Form Surprisingly Close to Milky Way's Black Hole, October 13, 2005 ... snip ... Until the latest Chandra results, astronomers have disagreed about the origin of a mysterious group of massive stars discovered by infrared astronomers to be orbiting less than a light year from the Milky Way's central black hole, a.k.a. Sagittarius A*, or Sgr A*. At such close distances to Sgr A*, the standard model for star formation predicts that gas clouds from which stars form should have been ripped apart by tidal forces from the black hole." Yet, "'We can now say that the stars around Sgr A* were not deposited there by some passing star cluster, rather they were born there,' said Sunyaev . 'There have been theories that this was possible, but this is the first real evidence. Many scientists are going to be very surprised by these results.'" No doubt. But they'll accept them ... as long as the major gnomes remain intact. :) Never mind that plasma cosmologists aren't surprised to find stars forming near the core. That would be expected to happen in their model. ;)
I bet that someone has addressed that but you are just too poor a debater to ever admit it.
Here's another example showing how mainstream astrophysicists choose to invent more gnomes rather than look to EM for explanations for what they see:
So what size would that magnetic field have to be BAC, why can't you answer the question?

Why do you take your magic gnome of Perrat's plasma and march it around but you can't put a figure on it?

What strength would the field have to have to move the stars in the galaxy per perrat's model?

Can't answer? Or won't?


Gnome King , you are!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,243130,00.html "Giant Black Hole at Center of Milky Way Grabs Planet-Sized Snack, Thursday, January 11, 2007 ... snip ... An ancient X-ray outburst from the supermassive black hole at the center of our Milky Way galaxy caused surrounding gas clouds to glow brightly in a cosmic light show that is only now being detected. The output likely involved the consumption of a snack equal in mass to the planet Mercury, researchers said here yesterday at the 209th meeting of the American Astronomical Society."

Now I bet they never even considered the PC/EU explanation for glowing "gas" clouds. After all, these researchers are certain there's a black hole surrounded by "swirling clouds" of "gas" "blown in by stellar winds." The cause is perfectly obvious in that case. (sarcasm) :rolleyes:
I bet you never considered the fact that the magnetic field needed to move the stars in a flat rotation curve could be computed, what would it be?

You like to poke holes in standard cosmology, but you can't put numbers to yours.

What size magnetic field BAC?

But no you will haul out that poor old Gnome and tell us that it can do it. Because he is your Wonder Gnome. And now he has his buddy, the miracle Plasmoid Gnome. Along with thier faithful dog the Z-pinch.


But gosh, what size field BAC?
And then there's this from the same source. "Sagittarius A* is unusually faint for a galactic supermassive black hole. ... snip ... Why our black hole is so dim is not entirely understood. 'This faintness implies that stars and gas rarely get close enough to the black hole to be in any danger," said study team member Frederick Baganoff of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology."
Too bad you don't pay attention to the answers, now do you.
Hard to believe stars rarely get close enough ... especially when at the same time the mainstream claims there are millions of them within a light year of the black hole. And it's not just one black hole all these stars apparently have to avoid ...
Quote your source BAC, you can't tell us what size Perrat's magnetic field would have to be, so please, don't just put words in other people's mouths.

Millions within a light year.. source?
http://spacespin.org/article.php/chandra_black_hole_swarm "Chandra finds a black hole swarm near Milky Way center, Sunday, January 16 2005 ... snip ... Among the thousands of X-ray sources detected within 70 light years of Sgr A*, Muno and his colleagues searched for those most likely to be active black holes and neutron stars by selecting only the brightest sources that also exhibited large variations in their X-ray output. ... snip ... Of the seven sources that met these criteria, four are within three light years of Sgr A*."

Four black holes within 3 LY of the central black hole? Note that number apparently surprised them. "Although the region around Sgr A* is crowded with stars, we expected that there was only a 20 percent chance that we would find even one X-ray binary within a three-light-year radius," said Muno."

But wait ... it gets worse.
What gets worse BAC is you running from answering a direct question,

you haven't shown that a plasmoid can do what you say it does.
You haven't shown that the Perrat model can do what you say it can.

You don't have to poke holes in your own theories, because you never demonstrate them.

What strength magnetic field BAC?
"From the estimated number of stars and black holes in the Galactic Center region, dynamical friction is expected to produce a dense swarm of 20,000 black holes within three light years of Sgr A*. A similar effect is at work for neutron stars, but to a lesser extent because they have a lower mass. Once black holes are concentrated near Sgr A*, they will have numerous close encounters with normal stars".

But don't worry ... they still have an explanation for why the Milky way is relatively quiet. "[T]he acceleration of low-mass stars by black holes will eject low-mass stars from the central region. This expulsion will reduce the likelihood that normal stars will be captured by the central supermassive black hole. This may explain why the central regions of some galaxies, including the Milky Way, are fairly quiet even though they contain a supermassive black hole." They also theorize a recent supernova cleared all the gas out of the region surrounding the central black hole. :D

So while the mainstream has the black hole (that they can't see) all figured out, an explanation for what they can see is still lacking. :)
Just like the magnetic field that Perrat's model would need, how big BAC?
For example (from http://scienceweek.com/2005/sw051125-5.htm ) "The following points are made by T.J. Lazio and T.N. LaRosa (Science 2005 307:686): ... snip ... even the basic properties of a key component of the galactic center, its magnetic field, remain poorly understood. ... snip ... Magnetic fields have the potential to transform, store, and explosively release energy, to transport angular momentum, and to confine high-energy plasmas into powerful jet flows. They are therefore central to astrophysical activity from stellar to galactic scales. ... snip ... approximately 20 years ago, the first high-resolution radio images of the galactic center revealed numerous magnetic structures that are unique to the galactic center. The most striking of these is the galactic center radio arc, a series of parallel linear filaments, each of which is merely a few light years wide yet more than 100 light years long. Also observed were a number of isolated linear features that were variously referred to as streaks, threads, and filaments. The relation between these isolated filaments and the bundled filaments of the radio arc remains unknown."
Unknown, just like you answering a direct question!
Maybe they'd learn something if they actually tried to figure that out? Do you suppose? And while they are researching that ... maybe they should ask themselves whether the energy output of the core and quasars is proof of black holes? Because it is an interesting fact that plasmoids also produce jets with the same characteristics observed coming from quasars and active galaxies. In fact, without those jets, galaxies won't even form because they can't shed the angular momentum. That's the same problem that stars have in forming ... which is why they also produce jets ... even without black holes. :)

Anthony Peratt proved in simulations (see his paper "The Role of Particle Beams and Electrical Currents in the Plasma Universe at the link I provided in the previous post on filaments) back in 1986 that z-pinches can easily produce synchrotron jets with the power observed in astronomical objects like the double radio galaxy Cygnus A.
But can they produce a gravitational field to cause stars to loop around them as though they going around a black hole?

Can you tell us what size the magnetic field would have to be to cause a flat rotation curve in the galaxy?

A dark matter indeed.
And the simulations show the duration of the radiation burst can be millions of years ... just as is apparently the case in the 3C273 jet. And isn't it ironic that this mechanism for producing synchrotron radiation was first brought to the attention of astronomers back in 1950 by Hannes Alfven (http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/synchrotron.html) who was actually the first to recognize radiation from astronomical sources as synchrotron radiation. They just ignored him back them ... just like they are ignoring the plasma cosmology explanation now. Even so, let history record that one might view this as another successful prediction by plasma cosmology. No need to invent black holes, neutron stars and magnetic reconnection to do it.



Are you sure? :D

I shall have to reread this later, I missed the part where you explained the high gravity field that causes orbits.

Too much to digest at one swoop. maybe it is there and maybe there is just a lot of flapping.
 
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BeAChooser: Try to guess what a plasmoid with a mass of 2.6 million solar masses and a radius of no more than 1 AU is? You are right - it is a black hole :jaw-dropp !
 
Do you read any of my posts?


No.

More accurately, not after reading your first post.

I do allow my eyes to float over them as I page past them - that's how I found the question I'm responding to.

My woo / stupid filter blocks out the rest.

Why would I read any of your posts?
 
See my post above.
Ah the Gnomes on Parade! You rely on wishful thinking, appeals to emotions and god of the gaps arguments. When you don't just follow the Karl Rove playbook.

How is the size of the magnetic field coming, to make the Perrat model move the galaxy BAC?

How does your plasmoid hold up on the upper limit for the mass at the center of the gagalxy?
No, only inferred. Inferred from observations that can be explained using known and demonstrable plasma and EM phenomena. For example:
Oh, like the one YOU refuse to try to put numbers to?

What size magnetic field to make perrat's model of galaxy rotation work BAC?
Electrical engineer Donald Scott in his book "Electric Sky" says the phenomenon that gives pulsars their name (rapidly pulsed radio signals) "is produced electrically (much like a radio station)." He says "In the plasma that surrounds a star (or planet) there are conducting paths whose sizes and shapes are controlled by the magnetic field structure of the body. Those conducting paths are giant electrical transmission lines and can be analyzed as such. Depending on the electrical properties of what is connected to the ends of electrical transmission lines, it is possible for pulses of current and voltage (and therefore power) to oscillate back and forth from one end to the other. The ends can both be on the same object (as occurs on Earth) or one end might be on one member of a closely spaced binary pair of stars and the other end on the other member of the pair similar to the "flux tube" connecting Jupiter and its inner moon, Io."

Scott goes on to note that in 1995 several super computer simulations were performed on a transmission line system model with properties believed to be those of a pulsar atmosphere and the results matched seventeen different observed emission properties. The 1995 analysis he refers to is "Radiation Properties of Pulsar Magnetospheres: Observation, Theory, and Experiment" by Kevin Healy and Anthony Peratt (http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/downloads/HealyPeratt1995.pdf ). Healy and Peratt concluded, “Our results support the ‘planetary magnetosphere’ view, where the extent of the magnetosphere, not emission points on a rotating surface, determines the pulsar emission. In other words, we do not require a hypothetical super-condensed object to form a pulsar. A normal stellar remnant undergoing periodic discharges will suffice. Plasma cosmology has the virtue of not requiring neutron stars or black holes (BAC - or quark stars) to explain compact sources of radiation."
I see, so what does Scott think happens to the core of a star of 1.5 solar masses to 3 solar masses after they are done fusing, or whatever gnome boojum you think makes a star shine?

What happens BAC?

What does Scott say will happen, or does he have an eternal energy source that keeps the star from undergoing gravitational collapse?

What happems to star at 1 solar mass?
What happens to a star 1.5 to 3 solar masses?
What happens to a star 3 to ten solar masses?

What happens to a star ten solar masses or greater BAC?

Do explain your beloved theories model?

What happens to the matter as it under goes gravitational collapse?
And what about the jets? Here is an image of the Vela Pulsar

http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/Images/objects/heapow/compact_objects/vela_pulsar_jet.jpg

Big Bang advocates claim the jets result from their magnetic reconnection physics.
Why don't you provide a mainstream source for that then?

Hmm, you can't answer direct questions and now you just assert straw in the mouth of others.

What size magnetic field is needed to make Perrat's model of galactic rotation work BAC?

What happens to a star 20 solar masses after the energy that makes it shine is gone?

Hmmm?
Plasma cosmologists say the jet is produced by the same phenomena created in what's called a focus fusion device here on earth. In a focus fusion device a plasmoid forms and stores energy. When the plasmoid reaches a critical energy level, it discharges its energy in a collimated jet along its axis in the form of electromagnetic radiation and neutrons. Being unstable outside a nucleus, the neutrons soon decay into protons and electrons. The electrons are held back by the electromagnetic field, and the high-speed protons are beamed away. The process can be repeated over and over at very high frequencies. Here is a diagram of such a device with the plasma discharge on the right:

http://www.holoscience.com/views/img/lasma_focus.gif

Here's an animation you can watch of a focus fusion device in action.

http://focusfusion.org/assets/animation/Foki1a2.gif

Not only do the "bow-like" arcs observed in the Vela Pulsar have the same shape as the discharge from this device but the plasma filaments that form in a focus fusion device look a lot like the circuit diagram envisioned by Hannes Alfven to explain what is going on in and around stars and galaxies.
Wow, not only that but you still ahven't said what size the magentic field needs to be to make Perrat's model of galaxy rotation work?

Or the gravitational attraction of a plasmoid at the upper limit of the mass at the center of the galaxy?
Or what happens to a star at 50 solar masses when it doesn't have the energy to shine anymore?
Plasma cosmologists note (http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/arch/040920pulsar.htm ) that "astronomers expected that the 'rotation' (pulsing) of the neutron star--conceived as an isolated mass in space -- would slow at a consistent rate.* But then they observed a significant 'glitch' in the pulse rate, an event that 'released a burst of energy that was carried outward at near the speed of light by the pulsar wind.' Of course, unpredictable variations in both the pulse rate and intensity of an electrically discharging Pulsar would be expected with any changes in the electrical environment through which it moved.
Oh , "of course" it would , no numbers, no modeling, no ability to make predections. Just more empty fluff from Thunderbolts!

Do YOU believe that electrical forces balasted the Materhorn out of place and dropped it down BAC?
Proponents of the electric model are particularly impressed by the two embedded 'bows' seen along the polar jet ... snip ... . Astronomers initially called these 'windbow shocks', a theorized mechanical effect of high-velocity material encountering the interstellar medium. But electrical theorists recognized a configuration common to intense plasma discharge in laboratory experiments: toruses or rings stacked along the polar axis of the discharge. And subsequent enhanced pictures ... snip ... made clear that the 'bows' were in fact stacked toruses, not easily explained in gravitational terms."

And this is not the only pulsar example where plasma cosmologists seem to have a better explanation of the observations than Big Bang proponents.
Hmmm, and what happens to a star at 5 solar masses when the energy that makes it shine is no longer available?

Or are you suggesting a violation of the conservation of energy as well?

What happens when a star at five solar masses undergoes gravitational collapse BAC?
Consider the Crab Nebula pulsar. Here are photos of that object:

http://www.seds.org/messier/Pics/Jpg/m1pulsar.jpg

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_ciencia/sol01_07.jpg

The shape is consistent with a homopolar motor ... the electrical circuit concept that plasma cosmologists (like Alfven) use to explain stars and galaxies.
have you found the size of that magnetic field BAC, here you are talking about the homopolar motor, is this what perrat suggested might make a galactic rotation curve flat?

What size magnetic field BAC, would be needed to do that?
And the concept as envisioned by Alfven included double layers along the axis of rotation of the object with the known property of producing jets. And some plasma theorists also speculate that a plasmoid forms at the center of such an object.
Speculation is what you are good at, but not answering a direct question!

Or is this another instance of

"whatever reasons"?
The bottom line is that known physics can produce what is seen. Neutron stars aren't needed and prior to the observation the jets and pulsar emissions, had been theoretically dismissed.
the bottom line is you aren't producing the number, what size magnetic field would be needed to just move the sun in Perrat's model of galactic rotation?
What size field for ten stars, a hundred, a hundred million?

Hmmm, show us the number or you are just waving your gnome around. Sure perrat could do it, but can a galaxy?
Furthermore, there are problems with the neutron star model, just as there are problems with the black hole model.
Have you decided what happens to a star at 500 solar masses when it runs out of the energy that makes it5 shine BAC?

Answer the question, what happens?
Now they are having to introduce "quark stars" to explain some of the neutron star observations. See http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/new_matter_020410.html . It seems that every time one turns around, Big Bang supporting astronomers and astrophysicists are adding yet another deduced, untestable, magic gnome to their celestial zoo.


Point away and wave your arms all you want, but answer the questions:

1. What size magnetic field would be needed to explain the rotation curve of a galaxy per Perrat's model?
2. What happens to the plasmoid model when it is at the upper limit of the mass at the center of the galaxy?
3. What happens to a star at 15 solar masses when it no longer has the energy to shine?
 
A really Big Gnome that can use it's Super Powers to avoid gravitational collapse?
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I think you're not far wrong. The magnetic field in a plasma cloud may stop gravitational collapse. This was investigated by Per Carlqvist in 1988, resulting in the eponymous Carlqvist Relation, peer reviewed in (ref, full text). As Carlqvist and Hannes Alfvén mention in another paper, the magnetic field may either counteract, or aid the contraction of cloud resulting in a pinch.
 
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I think you're not far wrong. The magnetic field in a plasma cloud may stop gravitational collapse. This was investigated by Per Carlqvist in 1988, resulting in the eponymous Carlqvist Relation, peer reviewed in (ref, full text). As Carlqvist and Hannes Alfvén mention in another paper, the magnetic field may either counteract, or aid the contraction of cloud resulting in a pinch.

If you believe that, you don't believe in general relativity. The inevitability of the formation of black holes when the total energy within a region reaches a certain cutoff (and it doesn't matter what form the energy takes - adding magnetic fields makes it worse) can be proven rigorously.

Do you believe in GR?
 
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Plasmoids aren't gnomes. We can actually create them in labs here on earth. Now MAYBE the LHC will create black holes. Hope not. ;)

Yes,in lab,but what are the lab conditions.How much do they differ from conditions in space.And could you please find any article or paper,where do they state and provide math for their mass.ETA:And property.But I doubt there is no need.

Any proof of this? Those calculations I sourced were done by electrical engineers and plasma physicists quite familiar with Maxwell's equations using (in some cases) codes that incorporated Maxwell's equations.
This is covered by others and I have yet to get to Maxwell's.(As said I study and now we have electricity,but it will take sometime to get there,that is why I only used probably...)

What should I ask them? How should I phrase it?
That is up to you.You are one of proponents of theory,but I think that key part would be equations,whose solutions can be tested against know data.(Obviously :) )
In fact,I am worng person to ask,why not just to email Project scientist,what is needed?

ETA:
Reminder to myself:Never ever post,until you read rest of unread posts...

And EU is even no theory,my apology.The "stupid game-word" should be hypothesis and so far as I read ,even proved being bad...
(Hopefully I did not break anything...)
 
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