The power of X

Ok, so what? 2, 3 and 4 are each members of N, but that doesn't define the set N. Your D sets do not define P(X) either.

This is not the Ds case, because we have D={}, D={a,b,c,d,...} and any D version between them, where each one of them is a Power(X) member that is out of the image of (it is not mapped with) any X member.

This is simply and directly defined by

[latex]$$ D = \{ \, x \in X: x \not \in f(x) \, \} $$[/latex]​

and no proof by contradiction is needed here.

Also it is "nice" that you ignored http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3650854&postcount=117 .
 
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If you wish to get such an experience, then, for example, go and learn Transcendental Meditation or any other similar meditation technique.

So this has nothing to do with your argument about Cantor's proof. Could you perhaps stick to the point you originally made. If you want to discuss metaphysics, I believe you know where to go.
 
You will not find it (yet) on any Book or article, because I am the first person that shows it....It is simple, beautiful and no proof is nedeed here, because Cantor directly constructs it.


In other words, you cannot show where Cantor constructs the power set because he doesn't. You made the whole think up. You cannot show us how Cantor constructs the power set because it is all a lie.
 
This is not the Ds case, because we have D={}, D={a,b,c,d,...} and any D version between them, where each one of them is a Power(X) member that is out of the image of (it is not mapped with) any X member.


Only in your misguided imagination. The proof of Cantor's Theorem constructs no such sets. You are a liar to state otherwise. The actual proof constructs one and only one set based on one and only one mapper between X and P(X).

This is simply and directly defined by

[latex]$$ D = \{ \, x \in X: x \not \in f(x) \, \} $$[/latex]​

Yes, that is correct. That defines one set D based on that singular f(x).

and no proof by contradiction is needed here.

If that is your belief, then you clearly don't understand the concept of Mathematical proof.


I didn't ignore it; it deserved no response. It was just more of your repetitive nonsense that shows a basic misunderstanding for obvious.
 
Doron has made his conceptions regarding Consciousness critical to his "proof" in this thread. So I'm going to point out where the disconnect begins.

Doron says:
In this case we have no choice but to use an analogy, but we must not mix between simplicity itself (which is naturally undefined) and some analogy of it (which is limited like any other definition).

Precisely. Of the inneffable, we can only make analogies. The analogies can serve as expression for communication, but they always remain merely the map, not the territory.
Doron attempts to express the relationship between Thought and No-Thought (No-Thought being the state of consciouness in which there is just awareness without thoughts and boundaries) in a mathematical notation where the ineffable ground is given logic values and treated as a predicate.
The map gets quickly confused for the territory. The concrete experience of consciousness is mistaken for an intellectual concept and mathematical abstraction. It becomes a single tier of predicated values in hir logic.

At just the point Awareness is made a "new magnitude," the fallacy begins.

Then s/he runs with it and attaches other unstated concepts in undocumented leaps to dubious conclusions.
When those assuptions are questiond, she attraches them to "consciousness," and claims they would be apriori if we were self-aware.

If we were to take Doron's logic to computer science, programming that tier of logic value s/he uses to represent consciouness, we'd not get a self-conscious AI entity. At best we'd have some fuzzy systems. But we already have mathematics of a non-excluded middle. Obviously consciousness is something other than this mere stick drawing.

By analogy you can call Consciouness a "common ground" to human mental activity. But I'd like to submit that "groundlessness" is probably a more apt analogy.

In catagorizing consciousness as an intellectual concept, something gets lost in the translation. Just like the map can't fully express the territory.
In the Doron's system this shows up as a denial of a robust mathematical infinity.
Of course, thoughts can't be complete, but thoughts don't have the last word, unless you are confusing concepts for reality.

I apologise for Philosophy in a Mathematics thread. But this is where Doron keeps running and running aground.
Doron will continue to say we don't get it because we haven't experierenced Consciousness.
And as someone who has experienced "No-Thought" states of consciousness, I protest hir confusing a conceptual wire rack for the inconceptual and trying to fill that which is empty of concept with intelectual analogies.
 
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You will not find it (yet) on any Book or article, because I am the first person that shows it.

No book is needed here if you understand How Ds (or B of the Wiki version) distinct versions are exactly the infinitely many Power(X) members, where each one of them is constructed in such a way that is always beyond the image of any given X member (and the result cannot be but |Power(X)| > |X|).

Persons that belong to the current community of mathematicians will try to do their best in order to save the complicated and un-necessary "proof" by contradiction of Cantor, because it is one of their fundamental agreed terms that save the stability of this community. For example see jsfisher and drkitten that when asked how two thoughts are gathered into a one idea, will do any possible maneuver in order to avoid the answer, because if the answer is given, the result of Ds as Power(X) members that are also beyond the image of and X member, is simply inevitable.

It is simple, beautiful and no proof is nedeed here, because Cantor directly constructs it.

You shows what?

Please show us where in Cantor's proof there is a "collection of D versions" or many "D distinct versions". Then prove that these versions form a power set.

PS. Cantor's proof is not complex. It is simple, concise and necessary.
 
At just the point Awareness is made a "new magnitude," the fallacy begins.
1. It is not a new magnitude, but it is Totality.

2. At the moment that it is understood, then anything that is not-total is naturally incomplete, and a collection is a non-total (and incomplete) thing, no matter what magnitude it has, this magnitude is incomplete.

3.
When the difference between the Total (and non-researchable) and the non-total (and the researchable) is understood, then the "closed under thoughts" fallacy gets off stage, and the organic paradigm of Total\Non-total complementation, which is a naturally not-circular framework, gets on stage.

4. I clearly and simply provided the logical aspect of the organic paradigm of the mathematical science ( http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/NXOR-XOR.pdf )
and the "closed under thoughts" circular fallacy is not relevant anymore.
 
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Please show us where in Cantor's proof there is a "collection of D versions" or many "D distinct versions". Then prove that these versions form a power set.

PS. Cantor's proof is not complex. It is simple, concise and necessary.

The result of |Power(X)| > |X| is directly given by D construction, or in other words, any "proof" here is more complicated than Ds direct construction.
 
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I read those and they have nothing to do with Cantor's Theorem. D in the proof is a single subset and not a collection of subsets.
1. It is not Cantor's theorem.

2. D is not a single subset, but it is a direct construction of each of Power(X) members in such a way that any D version is out of the range (it cannot mapped with) of any X member.

3. It is not a proof, but it is a direct construction that its result cannot be but |Power(X)| > |X|.

4. Any proof of this case is nothing but an unnecessary twisted maneuver.

Please look at this: http://www.tcs.tifr.res.in/~raja/publications/online/yapct08.pdf .

The mistake of this proof without negation is based on the term "all" (completeness) of a collection, but since a collection is an incomplete object, also this proof does not hold.
 
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1. It is not Cantor's theorem.

You started off this thread claiming it to be about Cantor's Theorem and its proof. But, if that's not what it is about, please tell us what it really is.

2. D is not a single subset, but it is a direct construction of each of Power(X) members in such a way that any D version is out of the range (it cannot mapped with) of any X member.

This is certainly not the case in the proof of Cantor's Theorem; however, since you seem to have jumped topics, where does this D set of which you speak arise?

3. It is not a proof, but it is a direct construction that its result cannot be but |Power(X)| > |X|.

It is definitely not a proof of anything. Moreover since you have been very frugal with details, there is nothing even suggesting a conclusion about cardinality in anything you have provided.

4. Any proof of this case is nothing but an unnecessary twisted maneuver.

Your statement speaks more of its author's ability to understand the proof than the proof itself.


So, the bottom line in all this is you malign Cantor, then refuse to support any of your claims.
 
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1. It is not a new magnitude, but it is Totality.

2. At the moment that it is understood, then anything that is not-total is naturally incomplete, and a collection is a non-total (and incomplete) thing, no matter what magnitude it has, this magnitude is incomplete.

3.
When the difference between the Total (and non-researchable) and the non-total (and the researchable) is understood, then the "closed under thoughts" fallacy gets off stage, and the organic paradigm of Total\Non-total complementation, which is a naturally not-circular framework, gets on stage.

4. I clearly and simply provided the logical aspect of the organic paradigm of the mathematical science ( http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/NXOR-XOR.pdf )
and the "closed under thoughts" circular fallacy is not relevant anymore.

I suppose it's possible that you have something to say, and I'm just misunderstanding you at every turn. But every opportunity you have to steer me on your path, you throw in a new, unexplained turn of phrase.
This time it's "closed under thoughts circular fallacy."
All I know of this is that it must be something I have.

But fairly speaking, I'm replying to you with terms other than ones you ordinarily use. So we aren't getting anywhere.

However your #2 point above is pretty clear for the layman and novice in Mathematics. And heck, you can do your own system where your intuitions involved in this fully hold. You are right to call it a different paradigm, because makes a really substantial departure from Mathematics as we know it.
All of the mathematics contemporary Physics is based upon from Newton to Hawking has to be scrapped, and you need to start over with something else.
Unfortunately it goes back further than that. We are back with Zeno of Elea still confused over the relationship between the continuous and discrete and number and line. Oh yes, you do have a new approach, a new path. Good luck. But realize you are setting aside and ripping through more in modern Mathematics and its scientific applications than you realize.
There's much more at issue than just the work of Cantor.

Which is why professional Mathmaticians hardly even bother to discuss these things with you and you:
At this stage I prefer to share my notions with non-professional mathematicians, because they are immediately rejected by professional mathematicians for a good reason (from their point of view) which is: I add a new magnitude that if it is logically understood, then any given non-finite collection is incomplete when compared to the new magnitude.

It seems to me that there is something positive in your attitude and the direction you want to go. I could be wrong about this, but I see you trying to make a philosophical shift away from absolutes to dynamic relation. It shows in your preferance for a multi-valued logic and your attempts at Complementarity. I keep reading your stuff just on the possibility that there is something in your approach that substantally serves this. I'm not finding it yet, but I can see how its a valuable stage in your quest.

Just beware: The Tao that can be expressed as a tier in a truth table, is not the Tao.
Oh wait! That must be my "closed under thought fallacy!"
Of course thought can have symbols for Totality, and even for the tottaly complete.

I need leave this thread to the mathematicains. I've participated in too much off-topic, though not as much as Doron hirself.
 
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Apathia said:
However your #2 point above is pretty clear for the layman and novice in Mathematics.

No, my #2 point is pretty clear that no current mathematician knows how two thoughts are gathered into a one idea, or in other words, the current mathematical science is a circular "closed under thoughts" framework.

Try to understand it by thought and at this very moment you do what is needed in order to not understand the Total\Non-total organic framework.

This mistake is clearly shown at the basis of Geometry (See Hilbert's axioms and his fallacy that is based on defining a non-local atom, called a line, by local atoms, called points), Set theory (a collection of distinct objects is complete), Number theory (there is no general understanding of this concept), Logic (There is no answer of how at least two opposites are simultaneously connected without immediately contradicting each other).

As a current mathematician you do not have any basis in order to get the organic paradigm, unless you are not "closed under thoughts".
Apathia said:
Of course thought can have symbols for Totality, and even for the tottaly complete.
No thought about Totality or some symbol of it, is Totality at its self state.
 
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this thread needs moving to religion and philosophy. Doron is showing no signs of doing any maths.
 
Yes I was refuted by people like you that are unaware of the common basis of their thoughts, which is itself not a thought, but the simplest state of consciousness, which is the natural basis of any thought (and since a definition is some thought, it is also the natural basis of any definition).

Also a Computer stuff (or any other abstract or non-abstract mechanical method) is nothing but some agent of your consciousness.

In other words, real mathematician is first of all a person that is aware of the simplest state of consciousness as an inseparable part of his mathematical work.


Ok. You win. This is not even wrong. In the same light, this is not even Woo.
Since I have NO IDEA what you are on about, here is a bunny with a pancake on it's head. :bunpan
 
No, my #2 point is pretty clear that no current mathematician knows how two thoughts are gathered into a one idea, or in other words, the current mathematical science is a circular "closed under thoughts" framework.

Try to understand it by thought and at this very moment you do what is needed in order to not understand the Total\Non-total organic framework.

This mistake is clearly shown at the basis of Geometry (See Hilbert's axioms and his fallacy that is based on defining a non-local atom, called a line, by local atoms, called points), Set theory (a collection of distinct objects is complete), Number theory (there is no general understanding of this concept), Logic (There is no answer of how at least two opposites are simultaneously connected without immediately contradicting each other).

As a current mathematician you do not have any basis in order to get the organic paradigm, unless you are not "closed under thoughts".

No thought about Totality or some symbol of it, is Totality at its self state.

Sorry Doron, I'm not able to give myself a mathematical developmental disorder at this time.
 
Sorry Doron, I'm not able to give myself a mathematical developmental disorder at this time.
Right now you are in the middle of a mathematical developmental disorder because you a using a "closed under thouhgts" circular reasoning.
 
this thread needs moving to religion and philosophy. Doron is showing no signs of doing any maths.
On the contrary.

You have a religious approach of the mathematical science, because you unable to get the simple notion that ideas can be changed by a paradigm-shift (exactly as some mutation changes some biological system from within).

You do not understand that the organic framework of the mathematical science is the real rigorous framework because it is not a circular "closed under frozen thoughts" framework.
 
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She's showing no signs of doing any religion or philosophy, either.
Only the most exact science, The rigorous science of the consciousness, which is the anti-thesis of the woo woo mystical\religious approach of this most important concept.
 
Ok. You win. This is not even wrong. In the same light, this is not even Woo.
Since I have NO IDEA what you are on about, here is a bunny with a pancake on it's head. :bunpan

Don At Work they are beautiful
:bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan
:bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan :bunpan
 
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Only the most exact science, The rigorous science of the consciousness,

The "rigorous science of the consciousness."

The cool of the summer sun. The calm of a category 5 hurricane. The stealthy approach of a stampeding herd of rhinos. The fiscal responsibility of a drunken sailor on leave.

And the writing precision of doronshadmi.
 
You started off this thread claiming it to be about Cantor's Theorem and its proof.
Yes.

No proof is needed here, because we have a direct construction of the result, in this case.

Let alone show your comparison between N (which is not closed from above, for example 1,2,3,4,…) http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654898&postcount=161 and R (which is both can be closed from below and above, for example [0,1]) in order to conclude that you do not understand this subject.

If you did not get that yet then x of 0 =< x =< 1 is equivalent to D of {{}, … , {a, b, c, d, …}}.
 
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You have a religious approach of the mathematical science, because you unable to get the simple notions that ideas can be changed by a paradigm-shift (exactly as some mutation changes some biological system from within).

A major shift in ideas requires *evidence*, something you have failed to provide.

You do not understand that the organic framework of the mathematical science is the real rigorous framework because it is not a circular "closed under frozen thoughts" framework.

Mathematics is not an organic science. Organic science involves itself with the chemistry of carbon atoms at the lowest level, and moves upwards to encompass biology. You appear to be making a classification error here.
 
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The cool of the summer sun.
You are playing with words, but you are unable to answer to this question:

How two opposite terms are gathered by you in the first place?

As long as the answer is not given, you have exactly nothing to say about the organic framework.
 
A major shift in ideas requires *evidence*, something you have failed to provide..
The *evidence* is exactly the simplest state of your consciousness when it is aware of itself without thoughts (it is not a thought about the simplest state, but it is the simplest state, which is naturally not a thought, but it is the source of any thought).

This is indeed a major shift for anyone how get things only from the level of thoughts.


Mathematics is not an organic science.
Think general. Organic means the result of the complementation between the non-local and the local.
 
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You are playing with words, but you are unable to answer to this question:

How two opposite terms are gathered by you in the first place?

Actually, I can answer that quite easily. Human memory, including vocabulary, is stored as a distributed pattern of neural activation, in such fashion that "thinking" of one concept, including reading it or looking at examples, will automatically "activate" other, related concepts. This is well-known and understood in the psych literature under the name "priming."

One easy and close relationship is contradiction; thinking of one concept will raise the activation level of the related-but-opposite concept (i.e. thinking of heat or of hot things will raise the mental salience of "cold" and related words.) So opposites are trivial. If you want the math, Hertz, et al. have a very good description of the mathematics of various models of associative memory.

This is also supported by the studies of linguistic cooccurance statistics (without reference to specific neural models), such as the LSA model developed at the University of Colorado.

Now that I've answered your question and supported it with references to the literature, let me ask you one.

How are totally unrelated gibberish terms gathered by you?
 
The *evidence* is exactly the simplest state of your consciousness when it is aware of itself without thoughts (it is not a thought about the simplest state, but it is the simplest state, which is naturally not a thought, but it is the source of any thought).

I see you're still not attempting to write simpler sentences. No matter. As has been pointed out having no thoughts and being self aware conflict. If one is self aware, one has a thought. If one has no thoughts, one is unconscious (and so not self aware).

This is indeed a major shift for anyone how get things only from the level of thoughts.
This is not a sentence. Consequently I don't know what you mean.

Think general. Organic means the result of the complementation between the non-local and the local.

Not in my dictionary it doesn't. My Concise OED gives:
1) of the bodily organs
2) having organs or organized physical structure
3) ... containing carbon in its molecule(s)
4) constitutional, inherent, fundamental structural
5) organized or systematic.

of those, I think 3, 2 and 1 (in that order) are what 'organic science' is understood to mean.

Where are you finding your definition of organic? Or did you just make it up?

Your previous post used the compound noun 'organic science', now you seem to have dropped the science part -- is that significant?
 
Actually, I can answer that quite easily. Human memory, including vocabulary, is stored as a distributed pattern of neural activation, in such fashion that "thinking" of one concept, including reading it or looking at examples, will automatically "activate" other, related concepts. This is well-known and understood in the psych literature under the name "priming."

One easy and close relationship is contradiction; thinking of one concept will raise the activation level of the related-but-opposite concept (i.e. thinking of heat or of hot things will raise the mental salience of "cold" and related words.) So opposites are trivial. If you want the math, Hertz, et al. have a very good description of the mathematics of various models of associative memory.

This is also supported by the studies of linguistic cooccurance statistics (without reference to specific neural models), such as the LSA model developed at the University of Colorado.

Now that I've answered your question and supported it with references to the literature, let me ask you one.

How are totally unrelated gibberish terms gathered by you?

You describe results without show their basis.

You did not answer to the question, which is:

How two thoughts are connected with each other?

To say that x leads to y does not answer to this question, because x is a one thing and y is another thing, and no one of them is the connector and each one of them is a connected thing.

So what is the connector that connects x to y or y to x without eliminating their self identities during the connection?

Hilbert's Geometric axiomatic system is a good example of this misunderstanding, because he tries to define the connector (represented as Line) in terms of the connected (represented as points).

This fallacy is fundamental to the current mathematical science and appears in any given branch like Set theory, Logic, Number theory etc. …
 
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As has been pointed out having no thoughts and being self aware conflict.
No, thoughts are nothing but the expressed aspect of the awareness, where the awareness at its simplest state is directly aware of itself without any thought.

The simplest state is the non-personal state of any personal expression (including thoughts) exactly as the sea is the non-local state of every wave (which is a limited aspect of the unbounded calm sea).

If you do not understand that the researchable as the result of the synthesis between the total connector (Unity) and the totally disconnected (Isolation) you do not understand the essence of the Organic paradigm.
 
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Consider the following:

All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
The best flavor of pie is cherry.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

With all due respect, drkitten - and please know I think the utmost of your contributions to this forum, and the expansion in my own learning that they provide - I must disagree with you here.

The best flavour of pie is apple.
 
this thread needs moving to religion and philosophy. Doron is showing no signs of doing any maths.


Please note that it did get moved. Thank you, moderators.

Doronshadmi, your thread is no longer in the math and science forum mostly because you were/are unwilling to discuss any Mathematics. This forum is better suited to your ramblings, so enjoy yourself. As for me, though, this section of JREF is not my cup of tea, so so long and thanks for all the fish.
 
No, thoughts are nothing but the expressed aspect of the awareness, where the awareness at its simplest state is directly aware of itself without any thought.

The simplest state is the non-personal state of any personal expression (including thoughts) exactly as the sea is the non-local state of every wave (which is a limited aspect of the unbounded calm sea).

If you do not understand that the researchable as the result of the synthesis between the total connector (Unity) and the totally disconnected (Isolation) you do not understand the essence of the Organic paradigm.

More gibberish. anyway, I find most of the philosophy here akin to mental masturbation, so I'll leave you to your badly thought out ramblings.
 
Please note that it did get moved. Thank you, moderators.

Doronshadmi, your thread is no longer in the math and science forum mostly because you were/are unwilling to discuss any Mathematics. This forum is better suited to your ramblings, so enjoy yourself. As for me, though, this section of JREF is not my cup of tea, so so long and thanks for all the fish.
Yes.

You are unable to answer to a fundamental question, which is:

How two thoughts (definitions) are connected with each other into a one idea?

The current mathematical science cannot answer to this question because it is a circular "closed under thoughts (definitions)" framework.

Some moderator gave a way to continue your dichotomic (it is not in the Mathematics forum, la la la ...) ignorance, isn't it?
 
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More gibberish. anyway, I find most of the philosophy here akin to mental masturbation, so I'll leave you to your badly thought out ramblings.
Go Nathan go and continue your circular "closed under definitions" masturbation. Any circular method is first of all a "full gas in neutral" masturbation, and you are a good example of this method, first of all because you are blind to your own consciousness.
 
Please note that it did get moved. Thank you, moderators.

Doronshadmi, your thread is no longer in the math and science forum mostly because you were/are unwilling to discuss any Mathematics. This forum is better suited to your ramblings, so enjoy yourself. As for me, though, this section of JREF is not my cup of tea, so so long and thanks for all the fish.
So you avoid http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3660363&postcount=185 .

Please explain us how x of the expression 0 ≤ x ≤ 1 is one and only one case that is 0 ≤ and\or ≤ 1?
 
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cooccurance statistics (without reference to specific neural models)

Co-occurrence ( http://lsa.colorado.edu/papers/plato/plato.annote.html ) is exactly x-occurrence, y-occurrence and something that is called "Co-" that is not another occurrence, but it is the Connecter of x,y occurrences.

You cannot avoid this fundamental Organic building-block as the most primitive researchable thing, so LSA is another "closed under thoughts" circular reasoning that uses the "Co-" as its hidden assumption.

Each time that anyone uses lines and dots in order to represent his results by some diagram, the "Co-" is most of the time represented as a line-like element (a non-local element), and the occurrence is represented by a point-like element (a local element).

In other words, you did not provide the right answer. All you did is to continue to use the "Co-" as your hidden assumption.
 
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