[Merged]Debunkers: what would it take to get you to support a new 9/11 investigation?

First, the CNN "early evacuation" idea is something they mentioned once and never again. Subsequently, even the very next day, they said the evacuation began at 9:45. No other TV station said there was an evacuation earlier, even though the grounds were packed with crews. NBC said, in fact, that people were queuing up for White House tours until after the Pentagon was hit. In addition, no-one has ever said who gave any order to evacuate at that time (although some people have made some very stupid suggestions), nor have they explained how an "orderly" evacuation that took 30 minutes would be the slightest bit of use, or why all the other Washington evacuations (Capitol etc) only took place after the Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

And second, even if we take it as true, CNN also said:



So they say the running in numbers only started at 9:42-ish. Richard Clarke describes this scene after the Pentagon was hit, in his book "Against All Enemies":



And Mineta described it like so:



Mineta says "everybody else is running away", and is plainly describing the same scene that others describe as happening only after the Pentagon was hit.

Yes, if we take Clarke's description as truth, then it seems the evacuation doesn't match Mineta's supposed arrival time.

But could Clarke be wrong in his analysis? Could people have been running out of the building when Mineta arrived?

Since you don't believe Mineta at this very moment, what evidence would it take to make you change your mind?

What evidence would make you come to the conclusion that Clarke has got it wrong?
 
Microspheres, the two words "pull it", and now one small errored testimony.

Certainly, it would take alot more than these minute details to even consider a new investigation.

Do you guys realize how little (actually nothing) you have going for you, how pathetic this is?

ABC confirms his testimony in combination with others. Are they all wrong? Were they all describing flight 93? And if so, what was the supposed count down of miles to target? How does that fit in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEFwg....com/node/9224
 
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If you Truthers will PAY for it, I'll support a new investigation. I think 20-30 millions will suffice.

Let me know when you have the money, and I'll set up a bank account for it and a trust to oversee the spending. If you have real estate to put up for it, I can have my lawyers deal with that, too.

We'll appoint a board to find non-partisan scientists, engineers, and experts on legal processes to sit on the panel.

OK - That's it. Come back when you have at least 20 million in cash or 30 million in real property to pledge. (Real Estate is hard to move, just now.)

-Ben

I'll see what I can do.
 
One does not "contract" NIST, and it's not needed. Dr. Quintiere has already done this, as I already informed you in my question and answer thread over a week ago. You should have had plenty of time to look it up by now.

Yes. Unfortunately I don't live in an English speaking country. That makes trips to the library difficult and limited.
 
Yes, if we take Clarke's description as truth, then it seems the evacuation doesn't match Mineta's supposed arrival time.

But could Clarke be wrong in his analysis?
It's not just Clarke. CNN, the source put forward by George Washington & others in support of Mineta, also says people only started running out after the Pentagon was hit. NBC said it was business as usual, too. I've yet to find a single person or report that supports Mineta's story.

Incidentally, the ABC example you put forward to gumboot as supporting Mineta, actually does nothing of the kind. Whoever put it up carefully edited it to conceal what the documentary actually said. Here's the transcript:

04:01:40 KARL ROVE, WHITE HOUSE COUNSELOR
The President said, I need to, I'm gonna need to make a statement before we leave here.

04:01:44 BYRON MITCHELL, EMMA BOOKER ELEMENTARY STUDENT

He was red and I seen that had tears in his eyes. So I knew something bad had really, really happened. His face was just red. And he was, his lips were just trembling.

04:01:55 MICHAEL ANDREWS, EMMA BOOKER ELEMENTARY STUDENT

He kind of stuttered, when he talked, and he kind of said it all slowly.

04:02:00 PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, UNITED STATES

Today we've had a national tragedy. Two airplanes have crashed into the World Trade Center in an apparent terrorist attack on our country.

04:02:12 CHARLES GIBSON, ABC NEWS

(VO) Quick good-byes, and then a race to the Sarasota airport. At that moment, in the White House, . . .

04:02:19 VICE PRESIDENT DICK CHENEY, UNITED STATES

I was in my west wing office.

04:02:21 DAVID BOHRER, WHITE HOUSE PHOTOGRAPHER

The Secret Service had come in, to his office. I think it was two or three agents, which is very unusual.
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/pentagon/attack/abcnews091102_jenningsinterviews.html

The clip you offered starts with "at that moment", and Bohrer's comment. But look at it in full and you can see they were saying "at the same time as Bush was speeding to the airport" - after 9:35. It does NOT support an early evacuation of Cheney, in fact it confirms the Commission account.

Could people have been running out of the building when Mineta arrived?
Of course. But then we have a problem. Mineta doesn't say there were one or two people, he says "everyone" was running out, from at least two buildings, the White House and the old Executive Building. For this to work, first we must believe that there were a few people coincidentally running out of both buildings as he arrived; that there were enough that he could believe it were a full evacuation; yet not actually enough that any of the media would notice this.

And for an example of what they saw, go here, scroll down to the videos, and watch the "CNN raw footage" video. You'll see one or two people run by, then a group, then a security guy tells the media to get off the grounds, then someone says "explosion at the Pentagon".

Since you don't believe Mineta at this very moment, what evidence would it take to make you change your mind?

What evidence would make you come to the conclusion that Clarke has got it wrong?
It's not just the evacuation issues. There are also these.

#1, Mineta said he received a phone message from Garvey before he left his office, saying Delta Airlines couldn't account for all their planes. If they were talking about Delta 1989 then that didn't make the "hijacked" list until 9:30-ish. To believe Mineta I'd need to know what that Delta call was about.

#2, Clarke said Mineta hadn't arrived when his video conference began. He confirms in three ways that this was after 9:10 by a) having Garvey say Flight 175 was one of the crashed planes (wasn't confirmed until much later), b) having Garvey say there were 11 possibly hijacked planes (I've not seen this reported prior to 9:38), c) saying the FAA were "frantically looking" for Mineta (totally unnecessary if this were 9:10 as Garvey had been in Mineta's office less than 7 minutes earlier). To believe Mineta I'd need to know how any of that were possible.

#3, Mineta says he gave the order for all planes to land at 9:45. Both Ben Sliney and Monte Belger say Sliney did it, though, and there are stories that Mineta knew nothing about the order until some time afterwards when he made contact from the White House (which breaks his timeline as he says he's talking to Belger for the approach of Flight 77). To believe Mineta I'd need an explanation for that.

#4, Mineta apparently now says Lynn Cheney was in the PEOC when he arrived, but how is she going to be there before 9:20? She's said she arrived after the Pentagon was hit in interviews since around October 2001, anyway, long before any of this was an issue. To believe Mineta I'd need some evidence that this wasn't true (not just assumptions that she must be lying because of her surname).

There are other things, like the 9/11 Commission documentation for their timeline, but confronting these would be a good start.
 
No one commented on this suggestion before. What do you think, Sizzler? Would you support blanket criminal and civil immunity for every U.S. citizen cooperating in the investigation (let's say, by answering all questions asked, without taking the fifth or committing perjury) for any wrongdoing the investigation might reveal? Clearly this would be at least very helpful, and probably necessary, for uncovering the full truth, completing the historical record, and protecting the U.S. in the future. Any objections?


Well, even if nobody else appears to have noticed, I think this is an excellent post - both in terms of being a sensible direction for the truthers to pursue, and being an ingenious rhetorical feint.

They can't possibly agree with it. It's just far too damn sensible - and worse, it might actually succeed. The paradox of trutherism is that on any given point they can't actually press too hard, because if it does collapse, and is revealed not to be the full and absolute truth, the underlying explanation isn't going to support their version either, and is actually even more likely to discredit them - without the vagaries, confusions and factual gaps, there is no space for their innuendo. The closer we get to the facts, the further from their religion; so whether they realise it or not, the successful truthers are the ones that render themselves completely self-defeating.

But if you genuinely believe that this NWO thing is happening, then you must surely drop all demands for retributive justice. Your moral posturing is completely irrelevant compared to the real danger here: we have to eliminate this evil infecting our culture immediately and at all cost.


Well, besides any rhetorical effect it might have, it truly is my actual position on the question of further state-sanctioned investigations (which, some might recall, is the topic of the thread). Even with the suggested immunity provision, there's a danger of political partisanship rendering the investigation useless. Any attempt to apportion blame where it's due is wasted if half of the government ends up telling Americans that the investigation itself is unjust. That becomes a virtual certainty if criminal charges are also on the table. On the flip side, immunity is a well known and well tested investigative tool, especially where conspiracy is suspected, as in organized crime cases.

I don't know what truthers might think of the idea, because so far not one has commented on it, not even to express agreement or disagreement let alone offer a rationale for their agreement or disagreement. But the status quo is there will be no new investigation, therefore everyone involved already has de facto immunity. Are those calling for new investigations willing to compromise for the sake of uncovering the truth and restoring the republic, or not?

Sizzler? Anyone? This IS the thread topic, after all.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Are they all wrong? Were they all describing flight 93? And if so, what was the supposed count down of miles to target? How does that fit in?

Sorry, I won't participate in your JAQing off.
 
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Sizzler? Anyone? This IS the thread topic, after all.

It's an interesting suggestion, but you have to understand that twoofers aren't really interested in having a new investigation, they don't care what shape it would take or how it will work, they simply aren't thinking about it because ultimately they know there's not going to be one. They just want to keep asking questions forever, keep focusing on minutiae and keep pointing the finger at an inside job conspiracy. To stay in doubt and to keep saying they have unanswered questions is really what they want, this way 9/11 will always be a conspiracy, or at least they can claim it is.

If they really work at putting together a real investigation, they might find the truth.
 
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Ever noticed with each response Sizzler gets, he asks 10 other questions immediately after?

This will never end.

Sizzler said:
Will it have subpoena power?
I guess the question now is, who is right and who is wrong?
Was flight 93 ever 10 miles out?
How does this fit flight93's path and any conceivable target?
Could people have been running out of the buildings when Mineta claims he arrives?
What evidence would change your mind?
Perhaps CCTV captured people running out at 9:22. Would that change your mind?
But could Clarke be wrong in his analysis?
Could people have been running out of the building when Mineta arrived?
what evidence would it take to make you change your mind?
What evidence would make you come to the conclusion that Clarke has got it wrong?
Are they all wrong?
Were they all describing flight 93?
And if so, what was the supposed count down of miles to target?
How does that fit in?
:boggled:
 
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I must concede that Clarke's description of the evacuation and what Mineta states seeing (in the other interview) as he pulls into the white house area doesn't match by about 20 minutes give or take.

I guess the question now is, who is right and who is wrong?

You've mentioned this before. It seems the whole body of evidence is needed to pass judgment. JWB offers this,



I know you offer an opposite view.

You wrote:



ABC has this to offer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEFwgxD9jHM&eurl=http://www.911blogger.com/node/9224

It seems ABC is confirming Mineta's testimony in combination with other's testimony. Have they all gotten it wrong?

Was flight 93 ever 10 miles out? And the lady in the ABC film describes a countdown of miles into the supposed target. How does this fit flight93's path and any conceivable target?

Could Clarke be wrong? Could people have been running out of the buildings when Mineta claims he arrives?

What evidence would change your mind?

Perhaps CCTV captured people running out at 9:22. Would that change your mind?


We'll try again:

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta#Clear_the_Skies
 
It seems ABC is confirming Mineta's testimony in combination with other's testimony. Have they all gotten it wrong?

Well ABC's account doesn't add up, does it?

Why do you keep asking the same questions every time? I've told you. AA77 was not tracked on Radar.


Was flight 93 ever 10 miles out? And the lady in the ABC film describes a countdown of miles into the supposed target. How does this fit flight93's path and any conceivable target?

The USSS has a system called "Tigerwall" which collates FAA radar data about aircraft and uses it to display threats for the USSS to track. They can combine with with their own stabilised long lens cameras to make positive identification of aircraft violating the restricted airspace over the White House.

One thing Tigerwall does is, if it hasn't received an update from the FAA on a particular target it projects that target's flight path based on last known information.

This is precisely what happened with UA93. When the aircraft crashed at 10:03 in Shanksville Tigerwall didn't receive an update from the FAA so it kept tracking the flight in towards Washington DC based on the aircraft's last known heading, altitude, and speed.

It was this projected flight path that the attendant was telling Cheney about.


Could Clarke be wrong? Could people have been running out of the buildings when Mineta claims he arrives?

What evidence would change your mind?

Perhaps CCTV captured people running out at 9:22. Would that change your mind?

It didn't happen. The grounds were teeming with news crews that morning and we have plenty of live broadcast news footage that confirms that people did not begin running from the White House en masse until after the Pentagon was hit.
 
#1, Mineta said he received a phone message from Garvey before he left his office, saying Delta Airlines couldn't account for all their planes. If they were talking about Delta 1989 then that didn't make the "hijacked" list until 9:30-ish. To believe Mineta I'd need to know what that Delta call was about.


Let's not forget this would require Garvey to get from Mineta's office to the FAA's Operations Center and get up to speed on the situation (which means talking to the ATSCC) all in a matter of minutes.
 
Well ABC's account doesn't add up, does it?

Why do you keep asking the same questions every time? I've told you. AA77 was not tracked on Radar.




The USSS has a system called "Tigerwall" which collates FAA radar data about aircraft and uses it to display threats for the USSS to track. They can combine with with their own stabilised long lens cameras to make positive identification of aircraft violating the restricted airspace over the White House.

One thing Tigerwall does is, if it hasn't received an update from the FAA on a particular target it projects that target's flight path based on last known information.

This is precisely what happened with UA93. When the aircraft crashed at 10:03 in Shanksville Tigerwall didn't receive an update from the FAA so it kept tracking the flight in towards Washington DC based on the aircraft's last known heading, altitude, and speed.

It was this projected flight path that the attendant was telling Cheney about.




It didn't happen. The grounds were teeming with news crews that morning and we have plenty of live broadcast news footage that confirms that people did not begin running from the White House en masse until after the Pentagon was hit.

Ok then.

Final qustion.

What target are they talking about in the ABC documentary?

The one that flight93 is 30 miles out of, then 20, then 10.

Also one of the women in the ABC documentary counts down miles....7, 6, 5, 4 etc. Then nothing.

How does that target fit into flight 93' path and subsequent crash?
 
Ok then.

Final question.


What target are they talking about in the ABC documentary?

The one that flight93 is 30 miles out of, then 20, then 10.

Also one of the women in the ABC documentary counts down miles....7, 6, 5, 4 etc. Then nothing.

How does that target fit into flight 93' path and subsequent crash?

There is never a final question, is there?
 
Ok then.

Final qustion.

What target are they talking about in the ABC documentary?

The one that flight93 is 30 miles out of, then 20, then 10.

Also one of the women in the ABC documentary counts down miles....7, 6, 5, 4 etc. Then nothing.

How does that target fit into flight 93' path and subsequent crash?



The ABC video is talking about three different aircraft.

Lieutenant Colonel Dawn Deskins and Master Sergeant Maureen Dooley (from NEADS) are talking about American 11 which they had been told was heading for Washington DC - this is what the fighters at Langley AFB were scrambled to intercept at 0924. Dooley is the head of the ID team at NEADS and she had her ID Techs (Senior Airman Stacia Rountree and Technical Sergeant Shelley Watson) contacting both Boston ARTCC and Washington ARTCC trying to location AA11 which had incorrectly been reported as still airborne.

Danielle O'Brien was a controller at Potomac TRACON and she was the one that located AA77 about 15-20 miles from the Pentagon at 0932 and then tracked it in to impact. This was the first time that anyone on the ground was tracking AA77 since it had disappeared from Indianapolis ARTCC's scopes at 08:56EDT.

Norman Mineta is talking about the projected track for UA93. He didn't know it was UA93 because he arrived at the PEOC after the staff there were warned that UA93 was approaching.
 
The ABC video is talking about three different aircraft.

Lieutenant Colonel Dawn Deskins and Master Sergeant Maureen Dooley (from NEADS) are talking about American 11 which they had been told was heading for Washington DC - this is what the fighters at Langley AFB were scrambled to intercept at 0924. Dooley is the head of the ID team at NEADS and she had her ID Techs (Senior Airman Stacia Rountree and Technical Sergeant Shelley Watson) contacting both Boston ARTCC and Washington ARTCC trying to location AA11 which had incorrectly been reported as still airborne.

Danielle O'Brien was a controller at Potomac TRACON and she was the one that located AA77 about 15-20 miles from the Pentagon at 0932 and then tracked it in to impact. This was the first time that anyone on the ground was tracking AA77 since it had disappeared from Indianapolis ARTCC's scopes at 08:56EDT.

Norman Mineta is talking about the projected track for UA93. He didn't know it was UA93 because he arrived at the PEOC after the staff there were warned that UA93 was approaching.

So ABC must have really messed this one up....:boggled:

So in terms of flight93, how does the 30 miles out, 20 miles out, 10 miles out conversation play into this? What is the target that the plane is approaching?

___miles out of what target?
 
So in terms of flight93, how does the 30 miles out, 20 miles out, 10 miles out conversation play into this? What is the target that the plane is approaching?


Gumboot has already explained this to you at least twice on this page of this thread alone, including once in the post of his that you just quoted. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
 
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So ABC must have really messed this one up....:boggled:

So in terms of flight93, how does the 30 miles out, 20 miles out, 10 miles out conversation play into this? What is the target that the plane is approaching?

___miles out of what target?


This is the fourth time you have asked this question. I have already answered you twice, and pomeroo has linked to MikeW's very thorough analysis of Mineta's claims, which includes the answers to all of your questions.

You quite clearly have no interest whatsoever in getting answers, and only in playing your juvenile little games.

I will not offer another answer to this question. If you cannot read the problem is yours, not mine.
 
This is the fourth time you have asked this question. I have already answered you twice, and pomeroo has linked to MikeW's very thorough analysis of Mineta's claims, which includes the answers to all of your questions.

You quite clearly have no interest whatsoever in getting answers, and only in playing your juvenile little games.

I will not offer another answer to this question. If you cannot read the problem is yours, not mine.

I'm sorry I am coming off as playing games. I am not.

You wrote:

Norman Mineta is talking about the projected track for UA93. He didn't know it was UA93 because he arrived at the PEOC after the staff there were warned that UA93 was approaching.

You never finished this sentence.

I will assume you mean the White House.

but, how is that possible?

However, the flight path of Flight 93 shows that its closest proximity to the Pentagon and the White House was probably when it crashed (or if it got closer prior to crash, it never got much closer).

The 9/11 Commission stated that Flight 93 crashed 125 miles from Washington, D.C. Washington is about 5 miles from the Pentagon. So Flight 93 could not have crashed much closer than 120 miles from the Pentagon.

Therefore, Mineta could not have been referring to Flight 93.
 
I'm sorry I am coming off as playing games. I am not.

You wrote:

You never finished this sentence.

I will assume you mean the White House.

but, how is that possible?


There's no need to assume. The answers are in my posts. (By the way your assumption is wrong). And the answer to your latest question is also in my posts.
 
The 9/11 Commission Report has an excellent, sourced account of the "callout" incident. It's the section "United 93 and the Shootdown Order" on pages 40-42 (pdf 57-59). Be sure to read the endnotes.
 
There's no need to assume. The answers are in my posts. (By the way your assumption is wrong). And the answer to your latest question is also in my posts.

I'm going to have to reread all of your posts. I thought I read through yours (others I skipped by) is quite some detail. I guess not. Too many beers or bong hits perhaps:blush:

Anyway, I'll search through all of your posts and look for the answer.

Once I find it, I'll post a reply.
 
I'm going to have to reread all of your posts. I thought I read through yours (others I skipped by) is quite some detail. I guess not. Too many beers or bong hits perhaps:blush:

Anyway, I'll search through all of your posts and look for the answer.

Once I find it, I'll post a reply.


This is painful, I can't bear it.

1. United 93 was approaching Washington DC and this was the "target" that the mile references were regarding.

2. United 93 was reported as heading east bound as early as 0941 and reported as heading for Washington DC as early as 0946 (at which point it was 29 minutes away).

3. United 93 was assumed to be approaching Washington DC prior to crashing.

4. The flight path for UA93 was projected by some facilities, including the White House, after it had crashed, resulting in an erroneous report of it coming within close proximity to the city (50 miles out, 30 miles out, etc).

5. In reality UA93 crashed well short of Washington DC and was never this close to the city.

I hope that clears everything up for you.
 
BTW, Siz has not yet commented on Myriad's suggestion.


No truther ever has. None so far has even dared to acknowledge that the question exists.

A reminder and a clearer restatement of the question, in case Sizzler (or any other truther) wants to be the first:

In the interest of uncovering the truth to the fullest extent possible and protecting the U.S. and the rights of its citizens in the future, would you support blanket criminal and civil immunity for every U.S. citizen cooperating in a new comprehensive 9/11 investigation for any wrongdoing the investigation might reveal?

"Cooperating" means answering all questions asked and handing over all records or physical evidence that are requested, to the best of the witness's ability to do so, without taking the fifth or committing perjury.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Unexploded ordinance

If someone were to find unexploded ordinance (RDX, thermite, etc) in the vicinity of Ground Zero, I would support and encourage a second independent investigation of the events of Sept 11.
 
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If another investigation would make the Twoofers shut up, I would be in favor of it.
But it won't ,since when another investigation brings up no new evidence of an inside job, they will just denounce the new investigation as another coverup,and demand yet another investigation, and on and on ad bloody infinitum..
 
If another investigation would make the Twoofers shut up, I would be in favor of it.

Water-boarding would also make them shut up. It'd work faster (within 90 seconds for Khalid Shiek Mohammed), be cheaper by about a bajillion dollars and Bill O'Reilly says there's nothing immoral about doing it. ;)

It'd be soooo fun to what some of these self-righteous, egomaniacal, anti-semitic 'richards' squirm too. :D
 
No truther ever has. None so far has even dared to acknowledge that the question exists.

A reminder and a clearer restatement of the question, in case Sizzler (or any other truther) wants to be the first:

In the interest of uncovering the truth to the fullest extent possible and protecting the U.S. and the rights of its citizens in the future, would you support blanket criminal and civil immunity for every U.S. citizen cooperating in a new comprehensive 9/11 investigation for any wrongdoing the investigation might reveal?

"Cooperating" means answering all questions asked and handing over all records or physical evidence that are requested, to the best of the witness's ability to do so, without taking the fifth or committing perjury.

Respectfully,
Myriad

It's strange that some people like yourself are doing the intellectual work for them. I don't care for another investigation so I don't want to put any more effort than they are into thinking about it, on how this could be done, but this seems an important point you are making, and should be addressed by anyone who wants another investigation.

If you want to get at the core of the "conspiracy", inevitably people would have to testify, and these people necessarily would be in some way incriminating themselves, or putting themselves at risk for their reputation or else.

There, I've already given this too much thought. :rolleyes:
 

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