Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

The Big Bang is WOO!

-> I AM asking for a quantitative account

-> I AM asking about the full range of relevant observations (not a cherry-picked one or two).
As RC has already said, please start a new thread if this is what interests you.

Or, putting this another way, what the ^&$#_)$T**&! does your post have to do with this thread?

Unless, of course, you are chiming in to confirm, in a gross, crude way, that Plasma Cosmology does, indeed, embrace the logic of false dichotomy as valid ...
 
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So after looking around, I have found something i am sure has been presented in other threads, but the sources assume you know what they are talking about:

F=qvB
(now this one is confusing to me) is qv the charge vector? and B is the magnetic field?

and

R=mv/qb

is the m there the mass or is mv the magentic vector?

I know these are easy question but I am still trying to find out, because my understanding is this

the rate of motion is constant at radius R for the given charge q in the magnetic field B so in the top part the numerator is mv mass x velocity or is it something like magnetic vector?

So it looks as though as the mv move up the radius moves up but as the charge and magntic filed go up the radius goes down, so i am totaly lost.

Either way, to move a mass, you are going to need a huge charge of a huge electric/magnetic field.

We know that the field is small and the mass of a star is huge (2.8 x 10^30 kg) for a white dwarf, and so to accelerate that sucker it will take a huge charge or a huge electric/magnetic field.
 
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What is the evidence against Plasma Cosmology? Part 1: standard meaning of 'cosmology'.

Maybe this should be a separate thread, in light of robinson's latest comment?

Well, I think it best to keep it here, for now; it'll all be in the one place.

In all the following, I shall take "Plasma Cosmology" (PC) to mean "as described or presented in papers published by E. Lerner and A. Peratt (and any et al.s) in relevant peer-reviewed journals".

This first part (Part 1) addresses 'cosmology' in its standard, contemporary meaning of the history, large-scale structure, and constituent dynamics of the universe.

Later parts will look at 'cosmology' as it is defined within PC itself, and PC as a branch of science (i.e. problems with PC's approach/method, as opposed to the content; 'one level up' if you will).

Without further ado, and in no particular order (NOTE: this is not a complete list, nor is it intended to be):

1. Observations show that the universe has a structure that is inconsistent with Lerner's fractal scaling relationship (Zeuzzz: what is the best, most recent of Lerner's published papers on this?). Here is an SDSS PR showing the observed large-scale structure; here is the corresponding paper.

2. Observations of x-ray and radio sources in the HDF (N) field do not show attenuation of radio sources with redshift; this is inconsistent with Lerner's explanation of the nature of the CMB (Zeuzzz: what is the best, most recent of Lerner's published papers on this?). Here is one paper presenting relevant observations (there are dozens of others, not all on the HDF (N) field!)

3. WMAP observations detect ~400 point sources, almost all of which can be matched to known radio sources; this is inconsistent with Lerner's explanation of the nature of the CMB. Here is the preprint of the relevant WMAP 5-year results.

4. Lerner's model of the CMB is inconsistent with its observed SED (spectral energy distribution: COBE observed that the SED is a blackbody (example - note that the error bars are 400 sigma!); Lerner says this about how well his model fits (emphasis added): "[the Lerner model] has accurately matched the spectrum of the CBR using the best-quality data set from COBE[27]. This fit, it should be noted, involved only three free pamenters and achieved a probability of 85%." In case you, dear reader, don't quite get this, I'll spell it out more clearly: 'a probability of 85%' is not, repeat not, an accurate match ... the error bars are so small that '85%' represents a total failure to match (you'd need something like 99.99% to still be in the game).

5. No "dense, magnetically confined plasma filaments that pervade the intergalactic medium" have been observed (to the best of my knowledge) - these hypothesised objects are central to Lerner's CMB model, and they should have been observed, directly or indirectly, by now (Zeuzzz: in which paper(s) does Lerner describe what their observational footprint would be (other than the CMB) and attempt to explain why they have not yet been observed?)

6. The time dilation observed in high-z Ia supernovae is inconsistent with Lerner's proposed mechanism for the Hubble relationship ('tired light') - an example.

7. The CMB angular power spectrum expected in Lerner's model has not been estimated/calculated (so the now excellent observations haven't yet been used to test the Lerner model). Of course, this is not evidence against Lerner's PC, merely a note on a test it hasn't yet been subject to.

8. Lerner's PC requires the fractal scaling relationship to apply at large scales, including beyond the observable universe, otherwise the night sky would not be dark (Olbers' paradox). The night sky is dark, and at large scales the observed universe does not follow Lerner's fractal scaling relationship, ergo you can rule out Lerner's PC every clear night (away from big cities!), by going outside and seeing a dark sky.
(continued)

9. In Lerner's PC, the CMB is isotropised and thermalised starlight, and has but one temperature (pretty much the same as is observed), with no free parameters. Observations consistent with the CMB being at different temperatures at different redshifts would therefore be difficult if not impossible for his model to account for.

In December, 2000, the ESO issued a PR "VLT Observations Confirm that the Universe Was Hotter in the Past" ... the key part, for our purposes here, is that the team "derive[d] the temperature T of the CMBR at this large distance and early cosmic epoch [z=2.34] and [placed] a very firm lower limit on this temperature. The final result is that T is hotter than 6 K and cooler than 14 K" (emphasis added). Here is the paper with these results.

There have been several subsequent papers reporting firm detections of constraints on the temperature of the CMB at high-z; this quite recent one is a good example: the authors report a temperature of 9.15 +/- 0.72 K at z = 2.41837.
 
So after looking around, I have found something i am sure has been presented in other threads, but the sources assume you know what they are talking about:

F=qvB
(now this one is confusing to me) is qv the charge vector? and B is the magnetic field?

... snip ...
Wikipedia is not the best source, by a long shot, but it is all I could come up with at short notice ...

It's F = q v x B

where F (force), v (velocity), and B (magnetic field) are vectors, and x is the vector (or cross) product (q is, as you guessed, the charge).

This is the (classical) formula for the force on a charge q moving at velocity v in a magnetic field.

If there's also an electric field E (also a vector quantity), the equation becomes:

F = q (E + v x B)

And yes, this has been covered before, at least twice (with Zeuzzz participating at least once).
 
So after looking around, I have found something i am sure has been presented in other threads, but the sources assume you know what they are talking about:

F=qvB
(now this one is confusing to me) is qv the charge vector? and B is the magnetic field?
What DRD said. The fact there's no sin(theta) implies v and B are perpendicular

and

R=mv/qb

is the m there the mass or is mv the magentic vector?
This is just a result of setting the right hand side of the first equation equal to the centrifugal force ((mv^2)/r) and then rearranging.
 
What DRD said. The fact there's no sin(theta) implies v and B are perpendicular


This is just a result of setting the right hand side of the first equation equal to the centrifugal force ((mv^2)/r) and then rearranging.


Thanks DRD and TT, I was just curious and had been to a lot of places other than wikipedia. And yes the vectors are perpedicular.

So a high charge or field strength makes the radius smaller and mass and velocity make it larger, which makes more sense in the morning. So a star at a greater distance from the galactic center is going to need a higher charge or higher magnetic field as the distance from the galactic ceneter goes up.

Which goes against the Perrat model for flat galaxy rotation even further, the charges on stars should be somewhat consistant and the magnetic field is not observed to increase with radial distance from the galactic center.

I don't know if it would matter to Perrat's model but one paper said that the magnetic force can alternate direction and appears to form bands, which is way cool.
 
This post falls somewhere between 'What is the evidence against Plasma Cosmology?' judged by the standard meaning of 'cosmology' and the special meaning which 'cosmology' has in PC.

This post is about just one of Lerner's papers, Galactic model of element formation, published in 1989. It is an incomplete examination, because the copy I have (from Lerner's own website) is missing one of the five pages.

There are apparently only three citations to this paper, two by Lerner (the other, by Marmet and Reber, is not relevant to this thread ... unless Zeuzzz wishes to expand the big PC tent further, to include yet another, seriously inconsistent, 'alternative'). One of the two is Lerner's first paper on his model for the CMB; the second (later) is a critique of the BBT and does not add anything to Lerner's model. In his own writings, Lerner often refers to this 1989 paper as being quite definitive, and viable as an alternative account of the observed abundances of light nuclides (whether 'primordial' or not, and covering more than just H, He, and 7Li).

It is also important because it seems to include the only published PC model of how (spiral) galaxies are formed (Peratt's papers are not, explicitly, about formation; rather, they are about the maintenance of such galaxies' rotation curves).

First, the conclusion (1): Lerner's model is bunk; it is inconsistent with so many robust and well-established parts of astronomy, astrophysics, and plain ordinary physics that it is hard to know where to start. In this, and maybe another post or two, I will look at just some of places it is bunk ... not necessarily the worst, and certainly not a complete debunking.

Second, the conclusion (2): despite Lerner's (and Zeuzzz' and most PC promoters') strong claims concerning a rejection of an origin of the universe ("An origin in time for the universe is rejected,[11] due to causality arguments and rejection of ex nihilo models as a stealth form of creationism.[12]", for example), the kindest thing that can be said about this Lerner paper, concerning an origin of the universe (or its rejection) is that it is very confused; more realistically, Lerner all but claims either a universe little more than ~14 billion years old, or that we live in a highly special, privileged place (or some other epicycle of breath-taking audacity).

Finally, by way of introduction, a caveat: I may well have misunderstood this paper. I trust that Zeuzzz at least will be vigilant in pointing out any such misunderstandings.

Without further ado, and in no particular order ...

* cosmic ray spectra do not, in fact, "peak at around this energy [~1 GeV]". This eliminates the only direct observational support for Lerner's method of production of D (the 'knee', now thought to mark the transition from galactic to extra-galactic CRs, is at ~1016eV, 5 orders of magnitude higher).

* at least one MW star has been observed with a metallicity < 2 x 10-4 (the minimum that any MW star that 'can survive to the present day' must have), and its composition is almost certainly inconsistent with Lerner's model. There are likely hundreds, if not thousands, of such stars, though it is hard to say to what extent their compositions are inconsistent with Lerner's model because he says very little about what they should be.

* current estimates of the abundance of D and 3He are inconsistent with those predicted by Lerner's model (~2 x 10-5 and ~1 x 10-5, compared with H, vs ~1 x 10-5 for both, respectively). Again, however, it is difficult to say how strongly inconsistent the observed values are because Lerner is pretty vague on what the range of expected values should be. This is quite serious, for Lerner, because it implies that the range of 'primordial' abundances consistent with his model is quite large (other than for 4He ... a point he makes in his 'uncensored' Wikipedia webpage).

* recent observations of the MW halo have turned up several 'streams', thought to be the remnants of cannibalised former satellite galaxies. To the extent that such galaxies would have added gas and dust as well as stars to the halo (and disk, and bulge), presumably early in the MW's history, they scramble Lerner's model. For example, his assumption that the MW began as the gravitational collapse of a filamentary cloud of pure H, and that all the abundance of everything in the MW derives from the subsequent stellar and cosmic ray processing of that H, is wrong. However, it is, again, hard to say how incorporating realistic estimates of contributions from cannibalised galaxies would change the expected compositions of MW stars, gas, and dust.

* per Lerner, galaxy formation like that in his paper should be continuing today, elsewhere in the universe. Further, there should be large numbers of filamentary clouds of pure H - proto-galaxies. As far as I know, no such clouds have ever been observed ... and every 'free floating' cloud of H is already rich in He (as far as I know, but it's an interesting question so I might investigate further).

* many 'star-burst' galaxies have been observed, some that seem to be forming stars for the first time. As far as I know, they do not have elemental abundances consistent with Lerner's model, nor do they have the four-region structure of his model.

* the MW has a thin disk, a thick disk, a bulge, and a halo; Lerner's model does not address questions about the separate formation of each, and it is hard to see how it could.

* the MW has ~200 globular clusters orbiting in an approximately spherical halo. They are all old (as far as I know), and seem to have formed at approximately the same time as the MW. I cannot see how Lerner's model could account for them.

* my fave, for today: if the universe does not have an origin, where did the filamentary clouds of pure H come from? If the universe is, in fact, much older than ~14 billion years, why are there (apparently) no stars older than ~14 billion years? What magic happened, in an already infinitely old universe, ~14 billion years ago to turn galaxy formation on (and the first stars to shine)?
 
There you are!


The Big Bang is WOO!

-> I AM asking for a quantitative account

-> I AM asking about the full range of relevant observations (not a cherry-picked one or two).



Evidence for the Big Bang

That should take care of you for awhile... if you ever take the time to actually read it.

Btw, have you come up with that specific definition of your supposed "redshift anomaly" yet? Or are you going to run away... again? :rolleyes:
 
This is just a result of setting the right hand side of the first equation equal to the centrifugal force ((mv^2)/r) and then rearranging.


Ahem... permit a physics teacher to nitpick. It's centripetal force, not centrifugal force.

Thanks - back to your regularly scheduled thread.
 
Interim note: only one specific set of models remains to be examined, in terms of PC as defined by the published papers of Peratt and Lerner: quasars/AGNs/QSOs/galactic jets/whatever. As far as I know, these are found only in one or two papers by Peratt (Zeuzzz: if you know of other papers, please say so).

Then it's on to looking at PC at a higher level - what, apparently, is acceptable within the alternative paradigm of cosmology (and science) called "Plasma Cosmology" that is not in textbook cosmology (and astronomy and astrophysics).

I have already touched on three such: an embrace of the logic of false dichotomy, extraordinary selectiveness re observations relevant to PC, and an astonishing tolerance of internal inconsistency. The last includes:

* continued promotion of Peratt's 'spiral galaxy' model(s) despite the fact that they cannot possibly describe the present-day, observed, motions of stars in such galaxies

* continued promotion of Lerner's 'CMB' model, despite the fact that it is inconsistent with observations of the CMB (certainly post Year 1 WMAP publications) - I have one more inconsistency to write up yet, concerning the dipole

* acceptance of 'intrinsic redshifts', including very large ones (e.g. QSOs with redshifts >3 or >4 being physically associated with galaxies with redshifts of < 0.05), without any 'lab confirmation' or even any plausible physical mechanism AND comprehensive failure to incorporate the implications of such huge redshifts into any cosmological models (specifically, neither Peratt nor Lerner, as far as I know, use anything - directly or indirectly - concerning such intrinsic redshifts in any of their models).

One other aspect of tolerance of inconsistency that I'd like to explore a bit, later, is GR - it's well established 'in the lab', yet PC advocates seem quite unfazed that it appears nowhere (as far as I know) in any published PC cosmological models (and there's even a paper by Alfvén where he explicitly denies that it has any role to play!).

Then, I think, I'm done ... I will have shown that while PC per Lerner and Peratt may not be woo, it most certainly is extremely inconsistent with a wide range of well-established, robust observations. I will also, I hope, to have established that PC is pretty much immune to being consigned to the dustbin of science history, because its proponents have incorporated alternative methods that make disconfirming evidence and internal inconsistencies irrelevant. In this sense, PC may share some key characteristics with ID.
 
... snip ...

Dancing David said:
What size magnetic field would be needed? What size magnetic field would be needed to produce the 'flat rotation curve'?
http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.php/Galaxy_formation
"The toroidal and poloidal components of the galactic magnetic field with field strengths reaching 2 x 10-4 G at the galactic center (fields as high as >10-2 G can occur in concentrated regions). And these results were reported prior to their observation in the Galaxy."
Q for Zeuzzz (if you're still around):

Do you know if Peratt published anything on what his model predicts for the regular magnetic field of the MW, and of galaxies (of various kinds) in general? On the spectrum of magnetic fields (including strengths) by size, in the MW (including the thick disk and halo)? If so where?

One reason why I'm curious is that observational constraints on the regular field and the spectrum have become much better (tighter) over the last decade or so, especially with a huge increase in numbers of pulsars observed. It seems to me that this would be a particularly good test of the model.

For example, the MW large-scale regular field seems to be aligned with the spiral arms, and has a strength of ~2 μG; however there is much evidence for turbulence (2D and 3D Kolmogorov spectra) over considerable linear scales (at least in our vicinity), flattening out at the smallest scales (<~ few pc). The rms field strength is ~6 μG.
 
There you are!






Evidence for the Big Bang

That should take care of you for awhile... if you ever take the time to actually read it.

Btw, have you come up with that specific definition of your supposed "redshift anomaly" yet? Or are you going to run away... again? :rolleyes:

Ahh, the Holy book again!

Got it. You can not support your beliefs.

Supposition built upon supposition built upon supposition is not evidence.
 
Ahh, the Holy book again!

Got it. You can not support your beliefs.

Supposition built upon supposition built upon supposition is not evidence.
Ahh, Jerome fails to read what is provided again!

Got it. You don't want to expose yourself to anything that might cast doubt on your fragile beliefs.

Denial built on insecurity built on negativity is not reason to dismiss established science.
 
Ahh, Jerome fails to read what is provided again!

Got it. You don't want to expose yourself to anything that might cast doubt on your fragile beliefs.

Denial built on insecurity built on negativity is not reason to dismiss established science.

The first evidence presented in the link is in itself a contradiction.

a) Large-scale homogeneity

The basic idea of an expanding universe is the notion that the distance between any two points increases over time.
Going back to our original discussion of BBT, one of the key assumptions made in deriving BBT from GR was that the universe is, at some scale, homogeneous. At small scales where we encounter planets, stars and galaxies, this assumption is obviously not true.


Presenting a symphony of suppositions does not make any of them evidence. Particularly when the supposition is not born out by the evidence. Here we have an excuse as to why the evidence does not conform to the supposition.

:covereyes
 
you don't seem to have checked whether the Delain et al. result was/had been subsequently validated or not, nor did you check on the observations in the radio waveband (apparently).

On both counts, RC's later post is spot on in terms of its conclusion ("This link is great! It shows that there are no galaxy-wide plasma filaments extending from the Sombrero Galaxy and thus disproves Peratt's plasma model!

First, RC didn't initially make the qualification "galaxy-wide". He moved the goal post after I showed that his initial statement "Can you tell us why we do not see plasma filaments extending from all galaxies? For example have a look at the Sombrero Galaxy which is edge on to us. According to Peratt's plasma model of galaxy formation there should be plasma filaments extending above and below the galaxy plane."

Second, the later source you cite does NOT say there are no faint x-ray filaments. In fact, that paper does not include the word filament anywhere in it at all. And the paper notes that "Our main interest here is in the diffuse X-ray emission from Sombrero." Maybe they didn't even go looking for filaments, DRD? The paper also states "There are considerable substructures in the inner region." I wonder what they mean by that. Could they be talking about filaments? Also note that the paper states "dips seen in the X-ray intensity distributions at certain azimuthal ranges (Figs. 7 and 8) might be the result of hot gas removal by the collimated ejecta from the AGN." Collimated ejecta? Is that another way of saying filaments? :D

And are you aware of this report, which also suggests the existence of filaments:

http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0003167 "The Sombrero galaxy, 2000 ... snip ... For these extinction levels, we indeed expect the northern filament to be barely detectable in our colour maps. ... snip ... In particular, the main support for the nuclear bar scenario comes from the presence of the straight, southern dust filament, which could actually be much further from the nucleus than we assumed (e.g. if it is outside the equatorial plane of the galaxy)."

And finally, regarding the claime that there are "no galaxy-wide plasma filaments extending from the Sombrero Galaxy" ... are you sure?

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/321326 "The Astrophysical Journal, 554:104–113, 2001 ... snip ... The filament originates in the northern Galactic hemisphere at a conjunction of filaments near the Ursa Major and Coma I clusters, passes through small knots of galaxies in the constellations of Canes Venatici and Ursa Major, through our position, and can be followed in the southern Galactic hemisphere out to the NGC 1023 group. The thread of galaxies that makes up what has been called the Sculptor Group can be viewed as a minor fragment of the main filament. It seems this filament is paralleled by a second one that originates in the Galactic north at the Virgo Cluster, passes through a big knot including the Sombrero galaxy, then passes nearest to us at the Centaurus Group ... "

That sure sounds like a galaxy-wide filament of the sort postulated by the plasma cosmologists.
 
Ahh, the Holy book again!

Got it. You can not support your beliefs.

Supposition built upon supposition built upon supposition is not evidence.


Hmmm... no definition of Jerome's "redshift anomaly" yet, and no attempt to read the actual science that he's criticizing. I suppose he's chosen to simply run away with his fingers in his ears, yet again... LA-LA-LA-LA-LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!

Jerome, you are clown shoes. In an attempt to engage you on your own level, I can only say one more thing to you at this point...

 
First, RC didn't initially make the qualification "galaxy-wide". He moved the goal post after I showed that his initial statement "Can you tell us why we do not see plasma filaments extending from all galaxies? For example have a look at the Sombrero Galaxy which is edge on to us. According to Peratt's plasma model of galaxy formation there should be plasma filaments extending above and below the galaxy plane."
I agree that I did move the goalposts a little. Instead of "any filaments at all" I moved them to "filaments that match Peratt's model".

And finally, regarding the claime that there are "no galaxy-wide plasma filaments extending from the Sombrero Galaxy" ... are you sure?

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/321326 "The Astrophysical Journal, 554:104–113, 2001 ... snip ... The filament originates in the northern Galactic hemisphere at a conjunction of filaments near the Ursa Major and Coma I clusters, passes through small knots of galaxies in the constellations of Canes Venatici and Ursa Major, through our position, and can be followed in the southern Galactic hemisphere out to the NGC 1023 group. The thread of galaxies that makes up what has been called the Sculptor Group can be viewed as a minor fragment of the main filament. It seems this filament is paralleled by a second one that originates in the Galactic north at the Virgo Cluster, passes through a big knot including the Sombrero galaxy, then passes nearest to us at the Centaurus Group ... "

That sure sounds like a galaxy-wide filament of the sort postulated by the plasma cosmologists.


This is not a plasma filament. It is a well-known filament of galaxies as shown in the sentences you sniped out:
Some comments on the characteristics of the nearby structure are in order. Almost all galaxies within 1h7~51 Mpc have negative systemic velocities, which suggests this region is gravitationally bound but not yet relaxed. The galaxies in this region make up the Local Group. This condensation is part of an expanding filamentary structure, with the nearest big galaxies close to each other in the sky in what are called

the Maffei-IC 342 and M81 groups.
No mention of plasma or a continuous structure linking the galaxies. That is fairly close to quote-mining.

Have you (or Zeuzzz) found out yet what kind of radiation will be emitted from Peratt's galactic plasma filaments?​
 
I hope everyone understands that that above post is from a self professed college professor.


That's me, by the way :D

(Actually, I teach both high school and college level - full disclosure, yadda yadda)

Jerome, do you really expect, after all of your belligerence and obfuscation on a variety of topics on this Forum, to garner any sympathy whatsoever when someone slaps you down?

If you don't want to be treated like a troll, grasp this clue... don't act like one. :rolleyes:
 
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That's me, by the way :D

(Actually, I teach both high school and college level - full disclosure, yadda yadda)

Jerome, do you really expect, after all of your belligerence and obfuscation on a variety of topics on this Forum, to garner any sympathy whatsoever when someone slaps you down?

If you don't want to be treated like a troll, grasp this clue... don't act like one. :rolleyes:

I do not expect to be treated any particular way.

Your posts evidence who you are, they have no reflection on me.
 
You misunderstand my question.

What is it that makes them suppositions as opposed to conclusions based on evidence, which is what the rest of us see them as?

I presented the admitted contradiction of the supposition in relation to the evidence. Please explain why if the evidence disputes the original supposition we are to understand the contradiction as evidence of said supposition.

This is not logical in the least.
 
I presented the admitted contradiction of the supposition in relation to the evidence. Please explain why if the evidence disputes the original supposition we are to understand the contradiction as evidence of said supposition.

This is not logical in the least.
So why do you think no-one agrees with you?
 
I do not expect to be treated any particular way.


Really?! So why the sudden appeal to the martyr syndrome?

"Oh boo-hoo! Look at the big mean college professor being so nasty to poor little old me... I'm just trying to get at the truth and he's being mean because he knows he's wrong! Boo-hoo!"

Please... your hypocrisy is showing Jerome. For dramatic effect, you should try nailing yourself to a cross next time :rolleyes:


Your posts evidence who you are, they have no reflection on me.


Correct, and people are perfectly free to judge me as they wish. And it is your posts that reflect on who you are... I leave it to others to make up their own minds about you.
 
Indoctrinated belief system.

Ever notice the vile spewed and the derision tossed on those that do not follow the prescribed path? Look religion and you see the same attitude.
So what do you think the reason is for the indoctination? Why does the scientific establishment engage in such indoctrination? What do they have to gain by maintaining their wrongness?
 
Just adding a little fuel to the fire:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20080512/sc_space/pieceofmissingcosmicmatterfound

There can be no doubt that what they're discussing is plasma, and it's hot, and its in filaments:

A team of astrophysicists has now found evidence of part of the missing half [of baryonic mass previously predicted but unobserved] in a bridge-like filament connecting two clusters of galaxies.

Along with dark matter, the missing baryonic matter is thought to form an enormous spider web of tendrils that connect galaxy clusters, which sit on threads and knots in the web.

The missing part of this matter was thought to be a hot, ultra-thin gas haze of very low density between larger structures. Its hellacious temperature means that it only emits far-ultraviolet and X-ray radiation.

(Link in text is from original Yahoo article.)

Could it be (and I'm far, far iout on the intergalactic limb here) that this might represent a partial blending of plasma and standard cosmologies? It takes from plasma that which make sense (the intergalactic structure of the universe from PC without having to swallow the electric sun stuff, it seems to me. Tell me what y'all think.

The finding is detailed in the May 2008 issue of the journal Astronomy and Astrophysics Letters.
 
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Just adding a little fuel to the fire:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20080512/sc_space/pieceofmissingcosmicmatterfound

There can be no doubt that what they're discussing is plasma, and it's hot, and its in filaments:



(Link in text is from original Yahoo article.)

Could it be (and I'm far, far iout on the intergalactic limb here) that this might represent a partial blending of plasma and standard cosmologies? It takes from plasma that which make sense (the intergalactic structure of the universe from PC without having to swallow the electric sun stuff, it seems to me. Tell me what y'all think.
(emphasis added).

In a word, no.

It's not pure H (as is required in PC - recall that all elements other than He are primordial).

It's not anywhere near the right size for PC's plasma filaments, even with the most generous assumptions about fractal scaling (per Lerner) ... it's far too big.

And its mass is far larger than that which is derived from the analysis of the x-ray observations (per the weak lensing observations, reported in an earlier paper), indicating that CDM is the dominant (mass) component.

Here is the preprint; if anyone can make a case that what Werner et al. report is consistent with PC, go for it!

------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a misunderstanding in your post anyway ... in textbook astrophysics, the baryonic component of the universe is largely plasma anyway - the ISM (inter-stellar medium) and IGM (inter-galactic medium) are plasmas (i.e. ionised gases), although some of the ISM's phases are only weakly ionised (giant molecular clouds). In particular, the IGM in rich clusters is a hot plasma (~10 million degrees), which is what is detected in the Abell 222 and Abell 223 clusters which this filament connects.

It's been known for quite some time - in standard, textbook cosmology - that the universe is composed of a network of filaments, sheets, walls, ... and that rich clusters are at the intersections of these (check out the Millennium simulation for some very cool images!) - the 'cosmic web'. This has nothing to do with PC; it's a result expected from the CDM+baryonic content of the universe and General Relativity. It has also been observed, in the way galaxies are distributed, for a while now (as far back as 1978, it seems).

What's new, in this paper, is the first direct observation of one of these filaments, as IGM, and in particular, in the deathless prose of astronomy, of the WHIM (warm-hot intergalactic medium). As the baryonic mass of galaxies in clusters is an almost trivial fraction of the total baryonic mass of those clusters (the IGM dominates), so too in the filaments (the galaxies in the filaments are a minor component, baryonic mass-wise).

Courtesy of Zeuzzz, we are to understand that PC explicitly rejects the idea of an origin for the universe, and that the large-scale structure of the universe can be accounted for only by considering the role of giant, universe-wide, currents.
 
Stop the bickering, please, and stay on topic. You need to make your points about posts presented, without resorting to attacking the poster.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero
 
(emphasis added).

In a word, no.

It's not pure H (as is required in PC - recall that all elements other than He are primordial).


Wrong.

It's not anywhere near the right size for PC's plasma filaments, even with the most generous assumptions about fractal scaling (per Lerner) ... it's far too big.


The fractal scaling relationship of dimension 2, that was a key prediction of plasma cosmology, and has been independantly confirmed recently, shouldn't you say?

And its mass is far larger than that which is derived from the analysis of the x-ray observations (per the weak lensing observations, reported in an earlier paper), indicating that CDM is the dominant (mass) component.

Here is the preprint; if anyone can make a case that what Werner et al. report is consistent with PC, go for it!



How much dark matter and relitivistic dark gnomes does he need to invoke to explain this filamentary shape then?

Do you understand how gravity works? ie, a purely attractive field?

Either there is another force at work here other than gravity on large scales, or you have to invoke tonnes of mysterious matter to enable gravity to acount for this shape.

And PC does not ignore GR, it includes GR as a vital component. Alfven wasn;t a big fan, but that was before the evidence was conclusive, so thats an acceptable position to take back then. Modern PC proponents use GR all the time.

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There's a misunderstanding in your post anyway ... in textbook astrophysics, the baryonic component of the universe is largely plasma anyway - the ISM (inter-stellar medium) and IGM (inter-galactic medium) are plasmas (i.e. ionised gases), although some of the ISM's phases are only weakly ionised (giant molecular clouds). In particular, the IGM in rich clusters is a hot plasma (~10 million degrees), which is what is detected in the Abell 222 and Abell 223 clusters which this filament connects.

It's been known for quite some time - in standard, textbook cosmology - that the universe is composed of a network of filaments, sheets, walls, ... and that rich clusters are at the intersections of these (check out the Millennium simulation for some very cool images!) - the 'cosmic web'. This has nothing to do with PC; it's a result expected from the CDM+baryonic content of the universe and General Relativity. It has also been observed, in the way galaxies are distributed, for a while now (as far back as 1978, it seems).

What's new, in this paper, is the first direct observation of one of these filaments, as IGM, and in particular, in the deathless prose of astronomy, of the WHIM (warm-hot intergalactic medium). As the baryonic mass of galaxies in clusters is an almost trivial fraction of the total baryonic mass of those clusters (the IGM dominates), so too in the filaments (the galaxies in the filaments are a minor component, baryonic mass-wise).

Courtesy of Zeuzzz, we are to understand that PC explicitly rejects the idea of an origin for the universe, and that the large-scale structure of the universe can be accounted for only by considering the role of giant, universe-wide, currents.


"Universe wide currents?"

Your last few posts at least showed a slight comprehension of PC, what on earth happened in this one?

And be patient, there are answers to your previous "evidence against plasma cosmology" points, so i wouldn't spend too much time on other supposed problems with PC until I have addressed your previous ones. But its not going to be any time soon, as i said, the real world is beckoning at the moment
 
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