Vince Foster and Ron Brown conspiracies

BeAChooser said:

And not all the people who were on this plane were good guys. A lot were hard core Democrats...

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Well that about says it all. Good luck to anyone willing to continue with this person's paranoia and disrespect for the dead.

Be a chooser..


Couple of questions for you, as i have done research on this subject, and you seem very up to speed on this matter.

As i understand it roughly 4 hours after the crash, Croatian special forces personel arrived, to find a flight attendant alive, with cuts and bruises. She supposedly was able to get on a helicopter on her own power, for the short 15 minute hop to recieve care.
I read a report that she died inroute, and had a roughly 3 inch gash across her femoral artery. Can you shed any light on this.


Secondly, in addition to the maintenance head who would have had responsibility to the navigation beacon, and his apparent suicide, i understand that the ATC of this same airport also commited suicide. Coul you comment on these two issues, and what you know about them.

beachnut said:

Ron Brown's accident, from real sources
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2905050&postcount=72
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2905176&postcount=74
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2905236&postcount=75
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2905322&postcount=77
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2905422&postcount=78
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2905460&postcount=79
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2905463&postcount=80
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2905467&postcount=81
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2906501&postcount=82
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2906655&postcount=83
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2906727&postcount=85
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2906763&postcount=86
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2906873&postcount=87
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2907105&postcount=88
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2907309&postcount=89
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2909266&postcount=93

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I looked hard to find something in BAC's stuff, but his stuff is all hearsays and lies. I am sure there is an audience for pure tripe and false information born out of hate and bias. The die hard CTers.

Ron Brown's death was due to an accident.

BeAChooser said:

In other words, you can't actually prove that any of those who disagree with me on this thread made anti-Clinton posts years ago that did more than complain about his inability to keep his pants up.

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I'm not interested in proving to you that these people are in groups A and B. That wasn't my claim. Would you accept complaints about his policy?

They can if they are Obama Democrats. But no one who is rational and familiar with events over the last decade can for one minute believe the Clinton adminstration committed no crimes beyond lying about Monica. The evidence is simply too strong that Clinton and his administration committed crimes in Travelgate, Chinagate, Filegate, CampaignFinanceGate, RapeGate, EmailGate, BrownGate, and FosterGate. And I'm more than willing to debate you about any of those topics, should you disagree with me but claim you know something about them. As far as I'm concerned, someone who claims they dislike Clinton but defends him in any of those cases is quite suspect. They may not be telling the truth but only hoping to gain a little credibility in the debate.

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And again you are stating that if someone's not in A or B, they are actually in group H. Are you willing to listen to evidence of posters here in groups C-G, or not?

Alt+F4 said:

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
And not all the people who were on this plane were good guys. A lot were hard core Democrats...

Well that about says it all. Good luck to anyone willing to continue with this person's paranoia and disrespect for the dead.

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Well there you go, folks. The fact that I note a few other passengers on the Brown plane were themselves implicated in illegal activities during the Clinton administration and that others were big time Democrats, makes the expert opinions of the pathologists and photographer, the clear lies of the government (as in the Peter's letter and Dickerson's statements), and all the other facts in the case suggesting foul play, totally irrelevant.

Sorry, but my views aren't based on paranoia. They are based on facts ... facts which I've demonstrated, time and again, I am willing to defend. Facts which, time and again, your side of this debate has demonstrated it wishes to ignore.

As for disrespecting the dead, we've already been there with that accusation. Remember, beachnut? Look how that turned out. He's been reduced to stuttering as evidenced by his latest post.

Frankly, I think the people who have disrespected the dead and the families of the dead are those who have helped cover up what may have been a mass murder. In fact, I doubt you even know who died on that plane. Here's a list:

Ron Brown, U.S. commerce secretary
Duane Christian, Brown's security officer
Adam Darling, Brown's confidential assistant
Gail Dobert, deputy director for the Office of Business Liaison
Carol Hamilton, Brown's press secretary
Kathryn Hoffman, Brown's senior advisor for strategic scheduling and special initiatives
Steve Kaminski, commercial counselor for U.S. and foreign commercial services
Kathy Kellogg, confidential assistant in the Office of Business Liaison
Charles Meissner, Assistant Secretary of Commerce for international trade
William Morton, deputy assistant secretary for international economic development
Lawrence Payne, special assistant for U.S. and foreign commercial service
Naomi Warbasse, international trade specialist
Barry L. Conrad, chairman and CEO of Barrington Group, Miami, Florida
Paul Cushman III, chairman and CEO of Riggs International Banking Corp., Washington, D.C.
Robert E. Donovan, president and CEO of ABB Inc., Norwalk, Connecticut
Claudio Elia, chairman and CEO of Air & Water Technologies Corp., Somerville, New Jersey
David Ford, president and CEO of InterGuard Corp. of Guardian International, Auburn Hills, Michigan
Frank Maier, president of Enserch International Ltd., Dallas, Texas
Walter Murphy, senior vice president of AT&T Submarine Systems Inc., Morristown, New Jersey
Leonard Pieroni, chairman and CEO of Parsons Corp., Pasadena, California
John A. Scoville, chairman of Harza Engineering Co., Chicago
Donald Terner, president of Bridge Housing Corp., San Francisco, California
Stuart Tholan, president of Bechtel-Europe/Africa/Middle East/Southwest Asia, San Francisco, California
Robert A. Whittaker, chairman and CEO of Foster Wheeler Energy International, Clinton, New Jersey
Captain. Ashley Davis, pilot
Captain Tim Schafer, pilot
Staff Sergeant Gerald Aldrich, flight mechanic
Staff Sergeant Robert Farrington Jr., steward
Sergeant Cheryl Turnege, steward
Sergeant Shelly Kelly, steward
Jim Lewek, a Central Intelligence Agency analyst
Lee Jackson of the Treasury Department
Nathaniel Nash, The New York Times' Frankfurt bureau chief.
Dragica Lendic Bebek, an interpreter
Niksa Antonini, a photographer.

Mind you, this list had to be reconstructed after the fact since no passenger manifest was every found.

For those who doubt what I say about certain passengers themselves being involved in illegal activities, remember that Ron Brown at the time of his death was about to be indicted for selling trade mission seats for campaign cash (among other things). Noting the names in the list that I bolded, consider this sworn testimony ...

http://www.apfn.org/APFN/exposes.htm

In an affidavit sworn by former Freedom of Information Act division head Sonya Stewart and filed with Federal District Court Judge Royce C. Lamberth by Judicial Watch, Stewart details the efforts of the administration to withhold secret documents demanded under the FOIA by Judicial Watch and Congress.

... snip ...

DECLARATION OF SONYA STEWART

I, Sonya Stewart, hereby state, under oath, as follows:

... snip ...

I was the Commerce Department's Director for Executive Budgeting and Assistance Management in the Office of the Secretary. Additionally, I served as Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary for Administration for Commerce in the Office of the Secretary from November 1998 to September 1999.

... snip ...

13. I have spoken with George Grafeld, a career civil servant and colleague who formerly worked for the Office of Business Liaison under its former Director Melissa Moss. (Ms. Moss, when deposed by Judicial Watch for a deposition presented to this Court, was asked to name OBL staff members during her tenure as OBL Director. Under oath, Ms. Moss, failed to name Mr. Grafeld and Lyne-Marie Griffin, a career civil servant, notwithstanding that both Mr. Grafeld and Ms. Griffin were, in fact, OBL staff members under Ms. Moss's tenure.) Mr. Grafeld told me that during Ms. Moss's tenure, he saw computer diskettes in OBL that were labeled "contributions/trade missions."

Mr. Grafeld said he knows that these diskettes were never handed over to Judicial Watch or the Court in this FOIA case. Ms. Griffin also saw these diskettes, according to Mr. Grafeld. Mr. Grafeld also told me that when he worked at OBL, he learned of letters from Melissa Moss to trade mission participants which referenced contributions they made to the Democratic Party in order to go on the trade missions at issue in this case.

Mr. Grafeld told me he had discounted these stories about Ms. Moss's fundraising letters until he saw press reports of Nolanda Hill's testimony about the Moss letters that Secretary Ron Brown showed her. Mr. Grafeld believes these letters were created from information that came from the Democratic National Committee (DNC), working in conjunction with the White House. ... snip ...

14. According to Mr. Grafeld, Melissa Moss tasked certain OBL employees, including Ms. Griffin, to enter names, including "political" names, into computers at OBL. Ms. Moss restricted access to the room where information was being entered into the computer, and Mr. Grafeld was not allowed to even be in the same room as the computer on which Ms. Griffin was inputting names. Mr. Grafeld reports that John Ost, a former Commerce OBL employee and political appointee, also worked on this project which eventually grew to 40,000 names.

From reading Mr. Ost's deposition to this Court, I learned that he admitted to receiving faxes from the Democratic National Committee (DNC) with the names of some donors, and he said that he gave them to Melissa Moss in response to Judicial Watch's FOIA requests. I also understand that these documents were never produced. Mr. Ost later left the Commerce Department (where Mr. Grafeld believes he earned approximately $45,000 per annum) to work for the DNC (where Mr. Grafeld believes he earned approximately $120,000 per annum).

According to Mr. Grafeld, Kathy Kellogg also participated in the "names" project in OBL and warned Mr. Grafeld to mind his own business when he inquired about the names being compiled. (Ms. Kellogg died in the tragic plane crash along with Secretary Brown, OBL Deputy Director Gail Dobert, and others.)

... snip ...

16. In my role as Commerce FOIA Director, I have reviewed Commerce Department documents showing that Commerce Department officials offered to contact White House official Bruce Lindsey concerning the vetting of participants, such as James Riady of the Lippo Group, in trade mission events led by late Secretary Brown. I have also reviewed Commerce Department documents which show that Commerce officials did coordinate with White House official Doris Matsui concerning potential participants in trade mission activities, and that Commerce Department officials considered support for the President and Democratic Party during their review.

... snip ...

I swear under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on July 7, 2000 in Litchfield Beach, South Carolina.

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And this Senate Report ...

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1998_rpt/sgo-sir/1-14.htm

INVESTIGATION OF ILLEGAL OR IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN CONNECTION WITH 1996 FEDERAL ELECTION CAMPAIGNS, FINAL REPORT of the COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS SENATE Rept. 105-167 - 105th Congress 2d Session - March 10, 1998

John Huang at Commerce

Throughout the Committee's investigation, John Huang has persisted as one of the most central figures in the campaign finance scandal. Huang's involvement was evident from the earliest inkling that there was systematic illegality in the way the DNC raised money during the 1996 election cycle. The first sign was a Los Angeles Times story about an illegal $250,000 contribution to the DNC from Cheong Am America. Mr. Huang raised that money. Huang proved to be a prodigious fund-raiser for the DNC in 1996, bringing in $3.4 million to DNC coffers. Nearly half of that amount has been returned to date, and there are serious questions about much of the balance not returned.

... snip ...

The OPM commenced its background investigation of John Huang on August 9, 1994, completing it on October 18, 1994. In the course of the investigation, OPM decided not to conduct an overseas background check on Huang despite Huang's years abroad. OPM claims that its guidelines neither required nor precluded such an investigation in Huang's case.105 The Committee interviewed Scott Kaminski, a former investigator reviewer at OPM, about Huang's case.106 Kaminski reviewed the background investigation of Huang before forwarding the completed report to the DOC. Kaminski told the Committee that under OPM rules then in existence, overseas investigative coverage was only required if the appointee lived overseas more than six months in the three years prior to being appointed to a government agency. After reviewing Huang's OPM file, Kaminski concluded that Huang had not lived overseas in the previous three years and decided, within his discretion, not to schedule an overseas investigation.

... snip ...

In late 1993, Huang's name was sent over to Commerce along with several other candidates by the White House Personnel Office. This list was sent to Jeffrey Garten, who was the Undersecretary of Commerce for International Trade during most of Huang's tenure there. Once Garten received the list, he forwarded it to the assistant secretaries below him at the International Trade Administration (ITA), including Charles Meissner.37 Meissner, the Assistant Secretary for International Economic Policy, made the decision to hire Huang as his principal deputy. According to Garten, ``Meissner came to me and said here's what I would like to do, and he wanted to--he was suggesting that we hire Huang, and I think the major reason was that Secretary Brown was quite adamant that we have ethnic diversity.''

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So Meissner's desire was a major factor in hiring Huang.

Folks ... keep in mind, as I noted previously, that Huang worked side by side with Brown, was a former employee of James Riady, left Commerce to work for the DNC, repeatedly lied under oath about his involvement in campaign finance violations, invoked the 5th Amendment over 2000 times in depositions, was labeled a "Chinese agent" by the CIA/FBI/Congress, was given a Top Secret clearance by the Whitehouse without a background check, had a close association with Ira Sockowitz who notified Commerce that 2 people survived the crash (when only 1 was ever announced), and received only a "wrist slap" for admitted campaign finance violations.

But if Brown had talked ...

I'm starting to think that in 30 years we'll have a name for the psychological condition that made certain people think that everyone in the world was either an angel or a devil, and that nothing existed in between.

It's fascinating how people can live on with that with that Black vs White illusion when basically everything we observe day to day refutes it. There has to be some weird evolutionary artifact, maybe remnants of tribalism or something.

I've met people who did this in their personal lives, when they met someone new they immediately went about a process of determining if that person was A LOYAL FRIEND or A BITTER ENEMY, nothing in between.

EDIT: Not saying BAC does that in his personal life, I have no way of knowing that. Just interesting to see it at work here, how every disagreement is met with a smirking, "So you're one of them."

roundhead said:

As i understand it roughly 4 hours after the crash, Croatian special forces personel arrived

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The June 7 1996 DoD briefing (http://cryptome.org/ct43-060796.htm) states the plane impacted the mountain at 2:57 pm. It states that the Croatian search began around 4 pm. It states Croation police confirmed the accident location at 7:20 pm. So yes, about 4 -5 hours elapsed between crash and discovery.

roundhead said:

, to find a flight attendant alive, with cuts and bruises.

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The flight attendant's name was Shelly Kelly. The above link states that at "around 10:30 p.m., Croatian police informed rescuers they had found a survivor with serious injury."

roundhead said:

She supposedly was able to get on a helicopter on her own power, for the short 15 minute hop to recieve care.

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The above link states a helicopter was unable to reach the site and " the police began moving the crew member down the mountain by litter at 11:15 p.m. At that time, the crew member showed no signs of life. The police reached the bottom of the mountain and transferred the crew member to a waiting ambulance. An accompanying Croatian physician pronounced her dead on the way to the hospital."

roundhead said:

I read a report that she died inroute, and had a roughly 3 inch gash across her femoral artery. Can you shed any light on this.

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In linked interviews I cited earlier, CPO Janoski said that's not true. I'm willing to believe Janoski. Just as I'm also willing to believe her when she testifies that the wound in Brown's head looked like a bullet wound and that Major Sentelle told her that Gormley tampered with the x-ray machine inorder to hide evidence of a lead snowstorm in a second set of x-rays. According to http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38386, Kelly's autopsy report states that she died of a “ill-defined cervical fracture,” a broken neck. Janoski seemed to think it was the result of the crash, not murder.

roundhead said:

Secondly, in addition to the maintenance head who would have had responsibility to the navigation beacon, and his apparent suicide, i understand that the ATC of this same airport also commited suicide.

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Hadn't heard that and tend to distrust it because there are no details attached. We know the name of the man in charge of the beacon and numerous other details.

gnome said:

Would you accept complaints about his policy?

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No, because they mean nothing as to the credibility of those posters. We see plenty of Democrats right now complaining about Clinton's "policies" and saying we need "change". But does that mean they'd like to see Clinton prosecuted if he committed crimes? I say the only way to know that is to see posts by them stating that.

The reason I was tossed off FreeRepublic is that I wouldn't "move on" where the allegations of criminal activities by the Clinton administration were concerned. FR, a conservative site whose moderators were very pro-Republican, were concerned that Bush focusing on those allegations would play into the hands of the liberal media and might cost Bush his "agenda" and the next election. But at least I could see posts by some of them from previous years where they actually did complain about illegal activities of the Clintons. And they often told me that yes, they still believed the Clintons were criminals, but getting Bush's agenda through Congress and winning the next election was more important.

Here, on this forum, I don't know the motivations of those challenging the allegations. You say they've posted anti-Clinton statements so they should be believed. I say those statements, if all they have to do with is Monica or policy, are meaningless. Even Democrats will say those things now. In this case, I have seen NOTHING to indicate that any of the folks on this thread other than I posted concerns about the criminal activities of Clinton and the Democrats. And like I said, I think anyone who actually has looked at the facts (and the folks on this thread are claiming they have, even though they won't actually debate them) can ONLY reach the conclusion that the Clinton administration was criminal.

David Wong said:

EDIT: Not saying BAC does that in his personal life, I have no way of knowing that. Just interesting to see it at work here, how every disagreement is met with a smirking, "So you're one of them."

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David, can you link us to ANY post you've ever made where you highlighted the CRIMINAL activities of the Clintons and/or Clinton administration?

Alt+F4 said:

Well that about says it all. Good luck to anyone willing to continue with this person's paranoia and disrespect for the dead.

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I really thought this would be the "qed" moment that showed everyone else the futility of continuing with this character. I guess I was wrong.

The helicopter used to get the wounded Air Force girl to treatment, the 3 inch gash, and the ATC allegedly commiting suicide later WERE all attributed to a guy named Joe L. Jordan.
I agree with your point about this information. His background would seem to indicate his credibility is poor, at best.
I found no other source describing her wounds as such, so there must be nothing to that story.

I did find credible info (From Wecht, i believe)that Browns's injuries were survivable, other than the head wound. I believe he had a broken pelvis, and superficial cuts and several burns that likely in and of themselves wouldnt have killed him.

maxpower1227 said:

I really thought this would be the "qed" moment that showed everyone else the futility of continuing with this character. I guess I was wrong.

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max, can you link us to ANY post you've ever made where you highlighted the CRIMINAL activities of the Clintons and/or Clinton administration?

roundhead said:

I found no other source describing her wounds as such, so there must be nothing to that story

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It is curious that Kelly's body was cremated without getting the approval of relatives and against established regulations. And as far as I know, no one was ever repremanded for doing it.

roundhead said:

I did find credible info (From Wecht, i believe)that Browns's injuries were survivable, other than the head wound. I believe he had a broken pelvis, and superficial cuts and several burns that likely in and of themselves wouldnt have killed him.

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Yes, Wecht did indeed state that as I believe I quoted earlier in this thread.

To say that Bill Clinton is slimy regarding his personal actions(especially regarding women)is non debatable fact.

For years i have wondered why Hillary stayed by his side in spite of all of this(other than for Political reasons)

Perhaps its because he is scared to death of her. She seems more than capable of having the ability to generate that concern.

roundhead said:

To say that Bill Clinton is slimy regarding his personal actions(especially regarding women)is non debatable fact.

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Some of the folks on this thread might disagree ... although they won't really debate you if they do.

roundhead said:

For years i have wondered why Hillary stayed by his side in spite of all of this(other than for Political reasons)

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You can't be forced to testify against your spouse?

I think I've made my point. A, B, or H, everyone. There's nobody in between.

I will not provide evidence for what I have not claimed.
If you believe the only reason to disagree is blind partisanship, and will accept no evidence that partisanship is not a factor in all posts disagreeing with you, there is not much point in debating further is there?

gnome said:

If you believe the only reason to disagree is blind partisanship

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What other reason might there be in your case, since you are unwilling to actually debate the veracity of the facts I've outlined in this thread? You aren't one of those FR Republicans, are you, who said I should "move on" in order to get Bush's agenda passed and him a second term?

I couldn't possibly do a better job than beechnut here...

And is there any point in debating the facts when you assume anyone who doesn't think your facts are better is just lying for Clinton? Drop that ad-hom and you might get somewhere. But I'm sure you won't retract anything, no matter how silly it is.

Megalodon said:

Main MIB: Gentlemen, we will now clear the final details of the target removal. Agent 1, you will disable the beacon...

Agent 1: Check.

Main MIB: Agent 2, you will place the decoy beacon in the mountainside, to insure the crash of the plane...

Agent 2: Check.

Main MIB: Angent 3, you will infiltrate the plane and shoot the target on the head and exit the plane before the crash...

Agent 3:..... Say what?!?

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You forgot the cue Lalo Schifrin part.

gnome said:

I couldn't possibly do a better job than beechnut here...

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ROTFLOL!

gnome said:

And is there any point in debating the facts when you assume anyone who doesn't think your facts are better is just lying for Clinton?

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It's not a matter of my "assuming" anything, gnome. I have offered credible sources for the statements and expertise of the pathologists and photographer. I showed why the Peters letter, statements by Dickerson and statements by Gormley were lies. Your side rather than debate the veracity of those statements and observations simply ignore them ... dismiss them out of hand ... claim that the official story MUST be true. It is fair to question the motivations of those who do that.