Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

But what difference will this post of mine make? Likely none.

Don't be so pessimistic. That is a great link, I read the entire page, even put it in my notebook. It actually increased my understanding of this most mysterious issue, measuring EM fields of very distant objects. Fascinating stuff.

You will ignore or quickly forget the content here, and pretend that Zeuzzz's position is uncontradicted.

Now you are just being silly. Why you would think I agree with Zeuzzz's position is baffling. I don't even know what his position is, much less agree with it.

Good information is IMNSHO, the best counter to bad information. For example, concerning Plasma physics and such, I want to know what we know about it, far more than I want to know anything else about it.

Like the solar wind, as well as the galactic wind. It is mostly hydrogen, split into electrons and protons. Right? The energy it took to create the plasma, the free electrons and protons, wouldn't the same amount of energy be released when the electrons and protons get back together to form hydrogen? Does the solar wind/plasma turn into hydrogen at some point? If so, where? Can we measure the energy of this happening? If it doesn't, does the plasma just stay plasma? Do we know? What happens to all the plasma shooting away from all the stars? Is the galactic wind faster or slower than the sun's motion through the Galaxy? If plasma is rotating around the Galaxy, does that mean it is effected by gravity after it reaches a certain distance from the sun?

What about the plasma shooting up and out of the plane of the Galaxy? Does it rotate? Or leave the plane, never to return? How is it effected by the Galaxies EM field? How far out does the EM field of the sun really reach? How far does a Galactic EM field reach?

That kind of information is a counter to crackpot theories.

I'm not just asking you, anyone who can answer those questions will impress me. Especially if they explain how we know the answers.

Even a good hypothesis would be interesting.
 
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We know the velocity of the sun about the galactic center, as well as how far away it is, so we can calculate an acceleration.

What is the velocity/speed/acceleration of the sun around the center of the galaxy? Is it relative or proper speed?

What is the same figure for the interstellar medium? Is that the same as the galactic wind? If not, what is the acceleration/speed/velocity of the galactic wind?

Is it plasma? Or plasma and gas and dust? How do we know? How do we measure these things?

And if you know, dumb it down enough that ordinary people can at least have a chance to understand it. Complex maths and exotic formulas lead to a TEGO effect.
 
What is the velocity/speed/acceleration of the sun around the center of the galaxy? Is it relative or proper speed?

The relevant velocity is obviously relative to the center of the galaxy. And what on earth do you even mean by "proper speed"? As for values, look them up on Wikipedia. You can find the velocity quite easily, along with the distance to the center of the galaxy. Combine the two appropriately and you can figure out the acceleration yourself.

What is the same figure for the interstellar medium? Is that the same as the galactic wind? If not, what is the acceleration/speed/velocity of the galactic wind?

We are currently moving through what's known as the local interstellar cloud. It's motion relative to us is outwards, not backwards or forwards. If the reason you're asking is in the hopes that the interstellar material might obey the PC galactic rotation curves even though we don't, you're wasting your time The sun is still accelerating towards the galactic core at a rate which cannot be explained by the gravitational attraction of the visible matter in the galaxy, OR by magnetic fields. The PC alternative to dark matter cannot be rescued from impossibility by the interstellar medium.
 
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In the other thread I posted a list of some of the scientific results that contradict PC ideas. All of which "we've" been through at some point or another:

The Hubble relation
General Relativity
The second law of thermodynamics
Solution to Olbers' paradox
The bullet cluster
WMAP
Hydrostatic equilibrium of stars
Neutrinos...

At Zeuzzz's request I'm going to go through some of them again. Being a sensible, logical physicist I'm gonna start ... at the end.

So... neutrinos. What exactly do they disprove?
Any electric star model. Why? because EM interactions can't produce neutrinos as they only couple to the strong force (and gravity).
Before anyone objects, yes I have heard of the solar neutrino problem. This has, however, been solved: neutrinos oscillate in flavour. How do we know this? Because we can see it with atmospheric muon neutrinos and with neutrino beams (see e.g. http://neutrino.kek.jp/news/2004.06.10/index-e.html).
I have also heard the objection "But how do we know the neutrinos come from the Sun they could come from anywhere?" This was true in the past (eg the original Homestake mine experiment couldn't answer this question). However, SuperKamiokande and SNO both observe neutrinos from electron scattering and can use this to infer the directionality of the incoming neutrinos (see e.g. http://www.europhysicsnews.com/full/11/article6/article6.html). As a result, any none solar origin for the neutrinos would have to come from a source that mimics the position of the Sun very well. As far as I'm aware there are no such explanations in electric Sun theories.
 
As for values, look them up on Wikipedia. You can find the velocity quite easily, along with the distance to the center of the galaxy. Combine the two appropriately and you can figure out the acceleration yourself.

So, you don't know, and it's too much trouble for you to look it up? Or even link to it?. Like I said, those you call crackpots provide vast amounts of data, papers, stuff, to show why they believe something. You just say "look it up yourself".

I agree with you. A link with partial quotations that supports a point made in a post is great.

If the Plasma people hadn't posted such a wealth of links and quotes, I wouldn't have bothered to follow any of this. That there is such a wealth of physicist and scientist who publish and research plasma stuff was at first surprising. If you listen to those who claim to know everything, only nutcases research plasma and cosmology and stuff.

Crackpots certainly supply an overwhelming amount of references or quotes but that does not make them scientific.

Nobody said it did. What it does do, is allow interested parties to do research and read stuff, rather than just take your word for it.

In the other thread I posted a list of some of the scientific results that contradict PC ideas. All of which "we've" been through at some point or another:

Again, no links, no information, just a claim "I posted a list", which considering this topic, should have been posted here.

I don't know about anyone else, but lazy annoying insulting anonymous peeps who claim to know stuff, but provide little or no evidence, are boring. And get ingored.

But that is just me.

But to get back to topic, I found this site
http://bigbangneverhappened.org/
which seems to be a plasma cosmology site. It also addresses many of the issues and questions raised here. And has a huge but difficult to follow list of references. It seems whacky, but talks about almost all the issues brought up here, and may fit the definition of plasma cosmology, in regards to woowoo.
 
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This is just one of many examples of what I see all the time here. Somebody brings up something:

The forest is used to measure the amount of neutral hydrogen between us and distant galaxies and quasars. These measurements show ....

And the response is a huge amount of information and links and references and stuff.

Lyman-alpha absorption saturates when neutral H fractions which are very small, about one part in 104. Not a huge problem, but certainly a limiting factor, especially on z>6 quasars.

Infact the Lyman forest can be explained equally sufficiently by the most used PC redshift model, the Coherent Raman Emission of Incoherent Light. The very existance of the Lyman forest is infact strong evidcne for CREIL, and often is one of the first pieces of data cited when evidencing CREIL.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0404/0404207.pdf

You should read the links i provided earlier on this;

• Coherent Raman Effect on incoherent light (CREIL)




continuing from that publication:

And in addition to the CREIL explanation Brynjolfsson has an explanation for the Lyman forests, he thinks that it could be explained by... i'll let him explain. Not sure what I think yet, only just found it. Its based on the plasma redshift theory, which i'm still not sure of personally.

http://astroneu.com/new-evidence/

Even with the Mods editing, it is a huge chunk of data, and reflects the effort and time some put into putting forth their views.
 
This is just one of many examples of what I see all the time here. Somebody brings up something:



And the response is a huge amount of information and links and references and stuff.



Even with the Mods editing, it is a huge chunk of data, and reflects the effort and time some put into putting forth their views.
That's true.

May I enquire as to how much of this material you have read?

And may I ask when I read the "huge amount of information and links and references and stuff" posted earlier in this thread (in many, many, many, many posts), and responded with detailed and specific questions, rebuttals, and "huge amount of information and links and references and stuff" of my own, did you read what I wrote? Did you appreciate "the effort and time [DRD] put into putting forth" analyses (etc)?

May I ask where I can find (as in, which specific posts) answers to the questions I formed from reading the "huge amount of information and links and references and stuff" presented?
 
Lyman-alpha absorption saturates when neutral H fractions which are very small, about one part in 104. Not a huge problem, but certainly a limiting factor, especially on z>6 quasars.

Infact the Lyman forest can be explained equally sufficiently by the most used PC redshift model, the Coherent Raman Emission of Incoherent Light. The very existance of the Lyman forest is infact strong evidcne for CREIL, and often is one of the first pieces of data cited when evidencing CREIL.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0404/0404207.pdf

You should read the links i provided earlier on this;

• Coherent Raman Effect on incoherent light (CREIL)



continuing from that publication:

And in addition to the CREIL explanation Brynjolfsson has an explanation for the Lyman forests, he thinks that it could be explained by... i'll let him explain. Not sure what I think yet, only just found it. Its based on the plasma redshift theory, which i'm still not sure of personally.

http://astroneu.com/new-evidence/
I don't know anything about the Coherent Raman Effect on incoherent light so I cannot really comment on the papers. It seems reasonable that the CREIL effect will have some effect on the light emitted by quasars and so on the observed redshift and spectrum.


But...
  • Redshifts (and Type 1a supernovae) are not the only technique used to measure the distance to quasars. The distance to a number of quasars have also been measured using gravitational lensing from closer galaxies. These measurements agree (within the usual astronomical uncertainties) with the redshift measurements. This indicates that the CREIL effect has a relatively small effect on redshift.
  • The Lyman-alpha forest is also measured using the spectrum from galaxies. Thus the Lyman-alpha forest is not just a result of CREIL. So the forest from quasars will be the result of the normal absorption by the neutral hydrogen cloud between it and us plus some contribution from CREIL. This will make it appear that there is even more neutral hydrogen in the early universe than results of the conventional Lyman-alpha forest analysis.
Brynjolfsson's Redshift of photons penetrating a hot plasma preprint of 2004 does not seem to have been published (last version in Oct 2005).
 
This is just one of many examples of what I see all the time here. Somebody brings up something:



And the response is a huge amount of information and links and references and stuff.

{stuff on CREIL, posted by Z}

Even with the Mods editing, it is a huge chunk of data, and reflects the effort and time some put into putting forth their views.
Let's see now ...

I shall copy and paste an earlier post in this thread; note that the post contains many links to external material, that allows a great deal of opportunity for investigation and study of stuff:
DeiRenDopa said:
DeiRenDopa said:
Tidying up a loose end ...

One of the many inconsistencies that makes PC, as presented in this thread by Z, woo is redshift.

Actually, it's a set of related inconsistencies.

Start with observation: for galaxies (and other objects) beyond the Local Group (the MW, M31, M33, the Magellanic Clouds, etc), distance and redshift are closely related - the greater the redshift, the greater the distance. This was first noticed by Hubble*, nearly a century ago now, and the distance-redshift relationship is today called the Hubble relationship. There's some scatter about the trend line, and a quantitative measure of that scatter correlates well with the objects membership of groups and clusters (the richer the cluster, the greater the scatter). To the extent that they have been measured, redshifts in different wavebands are the same (for the same object) - a galaxy's redshift measured in the x-ray waveband is the same as it is in the UV, or IR, or microwave, or radio waveband. Further, the atomic (or molecular) transitions that give rise to the lines used to measure redshift are many, from highly ionised iron, to moderately ionised oxygen, to neutral CO and H; hence the physical environments in which the excited species exist span an amazing range of temperature, density, and so on. Those are the observational results.

As Plasma Cosmology (PC) is universal in its scope (at least according to Z, per his posts in this thread), a good, consistent (PC) explanation of these observations should be available.

Surprisingly, there is no such explanation.

Instead (per Z anyway) there is a mishmash of creative ideas, speculations, and nonsense, with no apparent attempt by any PC proponent to produce anything definitive.

Curiously, most of these PC explanations involve mechanisms or processes that have never been seen in any lab here on Earth, a fact which would, no doubt, cause Alfvén to turn in his grave (a more egregious violation of his actualistic approach would be hard to imagine!); the ones that have been observed in labs pretty obviously do not apply to galaxies or objects whose redshifts have been measured in widely separated wavebands (say, radio and visual).

Even more curious, perhaps, is how uncritically PC proponents (including Z) embrace the published papers of Arp, Bell, et al ... curious because (among other things) there's even less in the way of potential (plasma) mechanisms for Arpian 'intrinsic redshift' than there is for that of the Hubble relationship**, and because if there really were such 'intrinsic redshifts' most of the works of most PCers (such as Peratt and Lerner) would have to be extensively edited, if not completely re-written.

In a way, the uncritical acceptance of Arpian 'intrinsic redshifts' for quasars is a rather nice summary of PC as a whole: not only are there no papers by any of the founders of PC on the existence of such an effect (recall that PC proponents are very big on 'predictions'), not only are there no plasma-based mechanisms for such an effect, but PC proponents are quite unconcerned about lensed quasars, which provide about as clear an observation-based case as you could ask for that quasars are at distances consistent with their (Hubble relationship) redshifts (example)!

Saying this another way: uncritical acceptance of inconsistencies, of many kinds and at many levels (and the extreme reluctance to even acknowledge that any inconsistencies exist), shows that whatever PC is, it is not a science or based on science.

Can we get on to new questions now? Like whether PC is more akin to religion or to conspiracy theories?

* actually it was almost certainly noticed by someone else earlier, but Hubble gets the credit (for being the first to publish a paper on it?)

** with one exception: AFAIK it is possible (and maybe even easy) to construct models for some subsets of the line spectra of unresolved quasars using standard physics; however such models are inconsistent with more general observations of quasars
One more item, of the 'tidying up' kind ...

I think quasi-stellar objects ('quasi-stellar radio source' later 'quasar', and 'QSO') were first recognised as high redshift objects in 1962 or 1963, though some had been claimed a few years earlier. In any case, within a year or so 'faint nebulosity' was observed associated with at least two quasars (not counting 3C 273's famous jet), and before long such faint fuzz around the point source was interpreted as the quasar's host galaxy.

As far as I know, while several 'alternative' explanations of quasar redshift (such as the laundry list in an earlier post by Z) might be plausible for a true point source, none would work for objects that each extend over hundreds or thousands of parsecs.

So, does the faint nebulosity surrounding the very bright quasar point source have the same (or similar) redshift as the quasar itself?

Yes it does. This 1980 paper may report the earliest observations of this (no surprise that it's 3C 273!), and this 2008 paper illustrates just how far observational techniques have come, in terms of obtaining spectra of the host galaxy of a quasar (here is a Gemini Observatory article with a non-technical summary).

Just one more set of good observations that all relevant PC theories and hypotheses needs to match ...
So, assuming you have availed yourself of the opportunity for investigation and study of stuff, robinson ...

... may I ask you if you understand why CREIL cannot explain why the observed redshifts of the parent galaxies of quasars have essentially the same redshift as the quasars themselves (such as 3C 273 and PG 1426+015)?

I note that you did not ask any questions about the two posts I wrote (linked to above), neither about the content nor any of the huge amount of information and links and references and stuff therein, so it is not unreasonable of me to conclude that you understood it and know why CREIL won't work.
 
Again, no links, no information, just a claim "I posted a list", which considering this topic, should have been posted here.
Uh, did you miss the rest of the post below that where he went on to discuss neutrinos and posted two links?

So... neutrinos. What exactly do they disprove?
Any electric star model. Why? because EM interactions can't produce neutrinos as they only couple to the strong force (and gravity).
Before anyone objects, yes I have heard of the solar neutrino problem. This has, however, been solved: neutrinos oscillate in flavour. How do we know this? Because we can see it with atmospheric muon neutrinos and with neutrino beams (see e.g. http://neutrino.kek.jp/news/2004.06.10/index-e.html).
I have also heard the objection "But how do we know the neutrinos come from the Sun they could come from anywhere?" This was true in the past (eg the original Homestake mine experiment couldn't answer this question). However, SuperKamiokande and SNO both observe neutrinos from electron scattering and can use this to infer the directionality of the incoming neutrinos (see e.g. http://www.europhysicsnews.com/full/11/article6/article6.html). As a result, any none solar origin for the neutrinos would have to come from a source that mimics the position of the Sun very well. As far as I'm aware there are no such explanations in electric Sun theories.
 
If the Plasma people hadn't posted such a wealth of links and quotes, I wouldn't have bothered to follow any of this. That there is such a wealth of physicist and scientist who publish and research plasma stuff was at first surprising. If you listen to those who claim to know everything, only nutcases research plasma and cosmology and stuff.

Please show us, with links, anyone who has stated only nutcases study plasma and cosmology?

Again, no links, no information, just a claim "I posted a list", which considering this topic, should have been posted here.
I reprinted the list! After that I didn't feel there was much point in providing a link to the page where the original list was, since the list I reprinted was exactly the same.

I don't know about anyone else, but lazy annoying insulting anonymous peeps who claim to know stuff, but provide little or no evidence, are boring. And get ingored.

Funny that. Remember this post? I never did get a reply.
 
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Where is this calculation? it was likely;

a) Probably using a central magnetic field, which is nothing to do with Peratts model
You were there, it is the galactic magnetic field as measured. Did you forget already. we are discussing the rotation curve model, not the formation model.
b) To lower charge on the star
I have asked you this before Zeuzzz, given the measured magnetic field of our galaxy, what charge would a star need to be accelerated in Perrat's model? Does it match observation?
c) Not considering the interaction of the star with it local environment
What does that have to do with the measured magnetic field? How is it going to change, i don't understand?
d) Using to low density for the ISM (or, dare i say, not even including the ISM in the calulation)


What is that going to do to change the magnetic fild and accelerate the star I don't understand?

Thanks.
 
Generally its the angular momentum.
Really, how does that work. We are talking about a really large mass and over time it will collapse.
Many other people have this exact opinion on many BH candidates actually being neutron stars, that why I think its likely, for the reasons they have given.

Astrophysics of Neutron Stars - Facts and Fiction about their Formation and Functioning




And this later publication also considers some viable alternatives to black holes, as white dwarfs binaries with large accretion disks; http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/...GH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf




Angular momentum.

So what force keeps the neutron star or accretion disk from undergoing collapse? i am confused, the model of collapse is based on some very sound math.

I looked at the abstract and the paper, they do not give an explanation for how the mass of 300 suns, much less 300 million suns would not undergo gravitational collapse. I see that they talk about how some of the observations could be explained by the model, but not how they avoid the gravitational collapse.

Now i am confused, i am asking how does this system avoid collapse past an event horizon?
 
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So, you don't know,

I don't have the numbers memorized, that is correct. And?

and it's too much trouble for you to look it up?

For you, yes. You spout endless challenges, yet you will do no work yourself, and ignore or forget when work has been done. Why should I do any work for you again?

Like I said, those you call crackpots provide vast amounts of data, papers, stuff, to show why they believe something. You just say "look it up yourself".

I've linked to this stuff before. You've been in thread where I've linked to this stuff before. You ignored it then. I'm not going to bother when you'll just ignore it again.

Nobody said it did. What it does do, is allow interested parties to do research and read stuff, rather than just take your word for it.

You could easily do the necessary research yourself, you just won't. Instead you whine to me that I won't do it for you. No thanks.
 
Referenced by Zig here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3446770&postcount=192

here is the post!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3420696&postcount=54
on this page:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3420696#post3420696

MM’s Pionerer anamoly calculation:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3525491&postcount=465
Olokow’s factoid:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3441160&postcount=174


So there you go, oh doubters!

Zeuzzz has been down this road and been in these conversations in the past. But as has been stated, he then acts as though he never has, which is demonstrated in a wide number of places and topics. Si it is rather a strange one when Zeuzzz just ignore what has been presented to him before and then others say that Zig is at fault.

And you were there Robinson, and you were there Hank and you too Zeke.
 
So, you don't know, and it's too much trouble for you to look it up? Or even link to it?. Like I said, those you call crackpots provide vast amounts of data, papers, stuff, to show why they believe something. You just say "look it up yourself".



If the Plasma people hadn't posted such a wealth of links and quotes, I wouldn't have bothered to follow any of this. That there is such a wealth of physicist and scientist who publish and research plasma stuff was at first surprising. If you listen to those who claim to know everything, only nutcases research plasma and cosmology and stuff.



Nobody said it did. What it does do, is allow interested parties to do research and read stuff, rather than just take your word for it.



Again, no links, no information, just a claim "I posted a list", which considering this topic, should have been posted here.

I don't know about anyone else, but lazy annoying insulting anonymous peeps who claim to know stuff, but provide little or no evidence, are boring. And get ingored.

But that is just me.

But to get back to topic, I found this site
http://bigbangneverhappened.org/
which seems to be a plasma cosmology site. It also addresses many of the issues and questions raised here. And has a huge but difficult to follow list of references. It seems whacky, but talks about almost all the issues brought up here, and may fit the definition of plasma cosmology, in regards to woowoo.

here is a list of prior references:
http://www.google.com/custom?q=bigb...=forums.randi.org&sitesearch=forums.randi.org
 
... snip ...

But to get back to topic, I found this site
http://bigbangneverhappened.org/
which seems to be a plasma cosmology site. It also addresses many of the issues and questions raised here. And has a huge but difficult to follow list of references. It seems whacky, but talks about almost all the issues brought up here, and may fit the definition of plasma cosmology, in regards to woowoo.
That's interesting.

Especially in light of what you have written these last few days.

Why?

Well, because Zz has provided links to pages on that site - not once, not twice, not even three times (but more) - earlier in this thread.

Did you not click on the links he provided? Did you not investigate and study that stuff?

There's more ...

There are three sub-headings under "Evidence for Plasma Cosmology" on the page that your link takes one to, "Plasma theory correctly predicts light element abundances", "Plasma theory predicts from basic physics the large scale structure of the universe", and "Plasma theory of the CBR predict absorption of radio waves, which is observed".

This thread has examined all three, in considerable detail.

Zz was asked many, many, many questions about that stuff; most of those questions remain unanswered.

Numerous inconsistencies, inaccuracies, errors, etc in that stuff were posted in this thread.

I don't recall you, robinson, asking any questions, either of that stuff itself or of the rebuttals (etc); nor do I recall you posting answers to questions asked.

Usually I would politely ask you to refresh my memory, and point to specific posts in this thread where you contributed to the discussion of PC material under those three sub-headings. However, in light of your lack of knowledge of a quite recent thread in which you yourself actively participated, I won't.

By use of this ointment - one shilling a box -
 
... snip ...

robinson said:
... snip ...

While I tend to avoid arguements online, I enjoy reading the never ending debate about plasma and related issues. I keep learning new stuff.

... snip ...
If I may, I'll take you at your word, and in a later post I'll walk you through one aspect of the deep inconsistencies in "plasma cosmology" (at least as presented by Z, here in this thread). I shall try, hard, to keep the level sufficiently low that you can follow along, but I trust that you will respond in accord with the spirit of what you have written here, and ask questions about stuff you don't understand.

... snip ...
As promised.

Aim: walk robinson through one deep inconsistency in "plasma cosmology".

Scope: "plasma cosmology" as presented by Zeuzzz in this thread; specifically as presented in post#684.

Key assumption: "plasma cosmology" is intended to be a major contribution to contemporary science, and assessed accordingly (this is, after all, the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology section of this forum).

Let's begin.

A central aspect of "plasma cosmology" is the following:

"Plasma cosmology advocates emphasize the links between physical processes observable in laboratories on Earth and those that govern the cosmos; as many cosmological processes as possible are explained by the behaviour of a plasma in the laboratory."

This is entirely consistent with the Copernican Principle (crudely, the Earth does not have a special place in the universe), and a deeper principle explicitly used in modern physics (crudely, that 'the laws of physics' are the same everywhere in the universe).

No doubt you have heard of the General Theory of Relativity (GR), first published by Einstein in 1916.

This theory is universal in its scope.

It has been tested extensively, in laboratories on Earth, throughout the solar system, and beyond.

Clifford Will's "The Confrontation between General Relativity and Experiment" contains a summary of those tests; you may find the most recent version of this document here, and its arXiv abstract is here. There is a huge amount of information and links and references and stuff there, allowing for investigation and study of stuff.

This next part is very difficult.

What happens when you take GR and apply it to the universe as a whole? I can give you lots and lots of excellent references robinson, but I know of none that present this application at a technical level suited to you.

When faced with these kinds of situations, what do you do robinson? How do you go about verifying for yourself that conclusions from using something beyond your technical level are sound, in terms of the science (this is the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology section of this forum)? If you could let me know, I'd be happy to walk you through how the conclusion follows from GR, using a method suited to you.

Here's one result: a scalar expansion is predicted from the FRW metric.

What does that mean?

In simple words, it means that the further an object is from us, the faster it will seem to be moving away from us. In other words, GR predicts the Hubble relationship. If you'd like to learn more about the Hubble relationship, may I suggest that John Huchra's website The Hubble Constant is a good place to start? There is a huge amount of information and links and references and stuff there, allowing for investigation and study of stuff.

That completes the first part of my walk-through for you robinson.

"a scalar expansion as predicted from the FRW metric is not accepted as part of this evolution"

Those are words from the source Zeuzzz quotes, in post#684, concerning plasma cosmology.

We may call this a central tenant of plasma cosmology, a core belief, an essential pillar.

Notice anything strange?

Recall this: "Plasma cosmology advocates emphasize the links between physical processes observable in laboratories on Earth and those that govern the cosmos".

We are at the end of the walk-through; here is one deep inconsistency (or intolerable conflict) in "plasma cosmology": on the one hand there is clear statement of the Copernican Principle; on the other, an arbitrary exclusion of GR.

Now the extent of this inconsistency (or intolerable conflict) may take some time to sink in, so let me expand on it a bit.

The "not accepted" part of the central tenant of plasma cosmology is not only a denial of GR and all the experimental tests to which it has been subject; it is also a clear, unambiguous statement that the Hubble relationship must be wrong, that the distances or redshifts (or both) must be wrong.

So what? Well, for one thing, it makes plasma cosmology something other than science - it contains a core element that ought to be eminently testable (by observation and experiment) but which has been declared off-limits for any testing. It declares GR to be an illegitimate theory of physics, by fiat, by declaring that its stated scope (universal, remember) is false.

If you are a fan of Karl Popper, a robust conclusion is that plasma cosmology is not falsifiable, and so cannot be part of science.

No doubt you have many questions; if you would care to write them down, I would be happy to try to answer them.
 
Thanks for digging up the link. My post was #54. I'd just like to point out that posts #64 in that thread was by robinson himself.

Your welcome I used the Google box of the search feature on 'orders of magnitude galactic magnetic' and then used the EDIT>FIND in IE7 functions on magnitude to speed it up. Took about ten minutes.
 
[seven beers]

OK, reading ReailtyChecks list of the definition of plasma cosmology, maybe I have not been specific enough throghout the thread in distinguishing between papers that are consistent with the plasma cosmology approach, and 'core' PC theories. I think much of this could be resolved by addressing which category publications fall into by considering the difference betweem:

(a) Klein's cosmology (not really discussed here)
(b) Klein-Alfvén cosmology (neither)
(c) Plasma Cosmology
(d) The Plasma Universe
(e) Plasma Astrophysics.

I'm going to off for a week on holiday, going to jamaica to catch up on my tan :D

Cyas all later!

[/eight beers]
 
[seven beers]

OK, reading ReailtyChecks list of the definition of plasma cosmology, maybe I have not been specific enough throghout the thread in distinguishing between papers that are consistent with the plasma cosmology approach, and 'core' PC theories. I think much of this could be resolved by addressing which category publications fall into by considering the difference betweem:

(a) Klein's cosmology (not really discussed here)
(b) Klein-Alfvén cosmology (neither)
(c) Plasma Cosmology
(d) The Plasma Universe
(e) Plasma Astrophysics.

I'm going to off for a week on holiday, going to jamaica to catch up on my tan :D

Cyas all later!

[PS] And thanks robinson for asking those questions, I'll get back to you when i'm back, and a considerable tone blacker :) :D :)

[/eight beers]
 
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wow, I killed the thread.

I really need to learn to turn my PC off when I'm under the influence. Probably not even advisable to be posting this considering I'm in jamaica ;)

I know. PC is a more realistic cosmology than its counterparts, and the Big Bang is woo.

Go!
 
Hmm ...

If all plasma cosmologies share the following, taken from a post of yours earlier, then they are all woo (as in "not science"):

"a scalar expansion as predicted from the FRW metric is not accepted as part of this evolution"

I went over this, step by step, in an earlier post, principally for robinson's benefit.

Any time you rule out an unambiguous prediction from an incredibly successful, broad theory (General Relativity, in this case), by fiat, then you know you're in woo-woo land.

Now there may very well be other good reasons for concluding that PCs are woo, but let's focus on one at a time, shall we?

And lest you are tempted to lessen this core precept of PC, any PC, please keep in mind that it is almost certainly stated (or very strongly implied), in one form or another, in all the PC material you have presented ...
 
a little bump since Zeuzzz seems to be active again:
Hi Zeuzzz, have you redefined, reformulated, reworked, redone or otherwise created a version of plasma cosmology that is a scientific theory yet?
Or do you even more theories to add to the collection of often mutually inconsistent theories that makes plasma cosmology the non-science that it is?
 
a little bump since Zeuzzz seems to be active again:
Hi Zeuzzz, have you redefined, reformulated, reworked, redone or otherwise created a version of plasma cosmology that is a scientific theory yet?
Or do you even more theories to add to the collection of often mutually inconsistent theories that makes plasma cosmology the non-science that it is?


Yep plenty. I think to clear up your list I need to distinguish between papers that are;

a) relevant and part of plasma cosmologies
b) papers about the the plasma universe
c) standard plasma astrophysics papers
d) Alfven-Klein plasma cosmology

As your list is kinda blurring all four. I'll get back to you on this....
 
Yep plenty. I think to clear up your list I need to distinguish between papers that are;

a) relevant and part of plasma cosmologies
b) papers about the the plasma universe
c) standard plasma astrophysics papers
d) Alfven-Klein plasma cosmology

As your list is kinda blurring all four. I'll get back to you on this....
(bold added)

Do you think that will be before or after you have answered the dozens of open questions, dating back almost to its inception, about the material you presented in this thread?
 
Lets have a look at this list again then.


Just to remind everyone that the question that this thread was started with has been answered:
The "plasma cosmology" supported by Zeuzzz, BeAChooser and others is definitely a nonscientific, crackpot theory (not woo).

The scientific theory of Plasma Cosmology is that of Hannes Olof Gösta Alfvén. This was expanded upon by Anthony Peratt, especially in the area of galaxy formation.

But the "plasma cosmology" that has emerged in this thread is not Plasma Cosmology and is not a scientific theory. Since it's proponents claim that it is a scientific theory that makes it crackpottery.

The definition of "plasma cosmology"is that it is a collection of scientific theories (not one consistent scientific theory) with a common thread. This thread seems to be that the theory either emphasizes the contribution of plasma in the universe or is a steady state cosmological theory.

This collection allows the addition of any new theory that matches the criteria regardless of consistency with existing theories in the collection. Thus the collection allows:
  • Multiple inconsistent theories on cosmological redshift.
  • Multiple inconsistent theories on the cosmic microwave background.
  • Multiple inconsistent theories on the structure of the universe.
  • Multiple inconsistent theories on stellar formation.
  • Multiple inconsistent theories on anything else that is contained in "plasma cosmology"
The PC collection includes:
There seems to be an emphasis on the extension of laboratory experiments in theory to large sizes via plasma scaling (ignoring the problems with this - see the Astrophysical application section). The observational evidence for this scaling has some gaps in it.

pc completely forgets about the laboratory experiments on gravity that can be scaled in theory without any problems to cosmic scales. The observational evidence for this scaling has some gaps in it.



I'll make some quick changes. This is hard to do though, as comparing two completely different paradigms is like comparing chalk and cheese. There are more philosophical issues in this than I can personally get my head around, like what makes a cosmology a cosmology, what it actually has to explain (different cosmologies say different things), the distinction between metaphysics and physical physics, importance of both reduction (exclusive focus on efficient cause) and emergence with both bottom-up (efficient causality) and top-down causation, uncertainly increase back in time and expressing this in a coherent way, etc, but I'll give it a go. I highly recommend reading this article for some of these issues: (http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0709/0709.3191.pdf) SOME EPISTEMIC QUESTIONS OF COSMOLOGY

And many people I have spoken with online give different definitions, Peratt thinks that any paper about the plasma universe makes it a PC paper (as most other cosmology relevant papers are based on speculations and unverifiable assumptions, like energy creation out of nothing, steady state theories, LCDM, etc). This is why I considered any paper in a PC journal to be part of PC. So that’s a completely different sort of cosmology than others to begin with, since even papers that have no relation to large scale structure fall under the scope of cosmology, and even includes theories that are not 100% consistent with each other. Which most people would dispute. More a framework than a cosmology strictly speaking. Lerner thinks.... I'm not sure, he's hard to contact (always busy with his fusion devices :D) and other people all seem to have their own plasma cosmologies, but reject unspecified areas of other parts with no particular reason. Anyways, lets have a go.


Firstly: A simple definition of plasma cosmology is that it is a simple extrapolation of laboratory physics to space that does not start with the assumption of an initial event of creation. While most cosmologies rely almost exclusively on mathematical constructs, based on various fundamental theories like GR and quantum gravity to find out ‘definitively' when the universe originated, then all work thereafter is formulated from this base, they are always subject to extra assumptions that may or may not turn out to be true. For this reason PC rejects these as a valid proof of an origin in space and time, and leaves the origin of the universe more open until concrete astrophysical data can accurately predict, in many independently verifiable ways, the distant epochs from which the universe is thought to have originated. PC’s position is that currently we do not have the knowledge to accurately know the exact and true origin of the entire universe, it is too hard to know this definitively for something that happened that long ago, the universe is assumed static and infinite, this is a default assumption in PC. Though the details are a bit more complex (see points below)





Now to my edit of RC’s definition of PC:

The scientific theory of Plasma Cosmology is that of Hannes Olof Gösta Alfvén. Alfvén's hypotheses regarding cosmology can be divided into three distinct areas.

1. The cosmic plasma, an empirical description of the Universe based on the results from laboratory experiments on plasmas
2. Birkeland currents (force free filaments), a proposed mechanism for the formation of large scale structure in the universe.
3. ambiplasma theory, based on a hypothetical matter/antimatter plasma.

Since this, the third point has received little or no experimental verification. Thus rendering the Alfven-Klein plasma cosmology incorrect.

The PC approach to cosmology of points one and two has been continued since by various scientists, with slight variations. This has lead to a generalising of the term plasma cosmology, and the term is often now used to describe any cosmology created within a plasma cosmology framework, instead of a specific cosmological theory. This can be compared to the various cosmological models formed within the Big Bang framework; the Big Bang itself would not be called a cosmology by itself, but cosmologies formed within this framework are. The most notable plasma cosmologies would be the original plasma cosmology of Hannes Alfvén, those theories developed by Peratt, Lerner and others in the 1980's and 90's, and various more recent models, such as the Plasma Redshift cosmology of Ari Brynjolfsson, CREIL based cosmology of Jacques Moret-Bailly, and others. While some aspects of each certainly are inconsistent, there are overlapping areas that are consistent, and it is likely that future plasma cosmologies will use aspects of each as theories are developed.

The definition of what makes a cosmological theory a "plasma cosmology" is that it follows a series of requirements, all with a common thread. A cosmology may be categorised as a plasma cosmology if it: (Note: this is off the top of my head, I may need to reconsider some of these after some thought)

A) Emphasizes the links between physical processes observable in laboratories on Earth and those that govern the cosmos. (Especially the link between the vast and varied properties of laboratory and space plasma, which have the potential to offer alternate explanations for many current theories where none existed previously.)

B) Does not require the introduction of hypothetical entities that have not been experimentally verified in controlled laboratory experiments, such mathematical constructs like inflation, dark matter and dark energy (or others, like quantum loop gravity, brane theories, etc)

C) An origin in time for the universe is rejected, due to causality arguments and rejection of ex nihilo models as a stealth form of creationism.

D) It is accepted that the further backwards in time we go, the larger is the uncertainty about the state. This approach does not necessarily lead to a “creation” at a certain time, nor does it exclude this possibility. In principle, it is also reconcilable with a universe which is “ungenerated and indestructible,” as Aristotle expressed it.

E) Since every part of the universe we observe is evolving, it assumes that the universe itself is evolving as well. A scalar expansion as predicted from the FRW metric is not accepted as part of this evolution, ie, the universe is assumed as static and infinite.

F) Since the universe is nearly all plasma (>99.99%), electromagnetic forces are in equal importance with gravitation on all scales. This negates the need for a finite collapsing universe, or a definitive beginning, as the exclusively attractive field of gravity is not the only force at work.

There seems to be an emphasis on the extension of laboratory experiments in theory to large sizes via plasma scaling See the Astrophysical application section for details of Peratts work on this scaling. Also see the Similarity Transformations for particle energy, velocity, potential, current and resistance, which are the basis for much plasma cosmology work. The observational evidence for this scaling has some gaps in it.

PC is well aware that the two or three laboratory experiments on gravity, that form the base of cosmology today, is an untested extrapolation over 14 orders of magnitude. Which is a quite a remarkable phenomenon.
 
Firstly: A simple definition of plasma cosmology is that it is a simple extrapolation of laboratory physics to space that does not start with the assumption of an initial event of creation. While most cosmologies rely almost exclusively on mathematical constructs, based on various fundamental theories like GR and quantum gravity to find out ‘definitively' when the universe originated, then all work thereafter is formulated from this base, they are always subject to extra assumptions that may or may not turn out to be true.

This part is so unbelievably stupid I can't stop myself from debunking it. It's just so completely contrary to reality... Zeuzzz, do you know anything about physics? Or just the history of physics in the 20th century? Did it somehow escape your notice that nearly everyone believed in a steady-state cosmology, until observations ruled it out? It was looking through telescopes that showed us that the universe is exapanding, not some "mathematical construct".

Einstein, when he realized general relativity didn't allow steady state solutions, actually tried to modify his theory to accommodate them (he failed, because there are none that are stable). Not only is what you said false, it's actually the opposite of the truth.

It's you and your fellow woos that ignore reality in favor of some really bizarre plasma fetish. These ideas that you can just scale up lab-sized plasma phenomena to astrophysical scales, all because they look kinda similar, is just.... moronic. It's something a salad vegetable would come up with. We know[/i[ what the laws of physics are, especially as they apply to plasmas, and so we know how astrophysical plasmas behave. We don't need to operate as if physics were some kind of post-modern pseudophilosophical mystical bs - we can solve the equations and FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS.
 
Lets have a look at this list again then.






I'll make some quick changes. This is hard to do though, as comparing two completely different paradigms is like comparing chalk and cheese. There are more philosophical issues in this than I can personally get my head around, like what makes a cosmology a cosmology, what it actually has to explain (different cosmologies say different things), the distinction between metaphysics and physical physics, importance of both reduction (exclusive focus on efficient cause) and emergence with both bottom-up (efficient causality) and top-down causation, uncertainly increase back in time and expressing this in a coherent way, etc, but I'll give it a go. I highly recommend reading this article for some of these issues: (http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0709/0709.3191.pdf) SOME EPISTEMIC QUESTIONS OF COSMOLOGY

And many people I have spoken with online give different definitions, Peratt thinks that any paper about the plasma universe makes it a PC paper (as most other cosmology relevant papers are based on speculations and unverifiable assumptions, like energy creation out of nothing, steady state theories, LCDM, etc). This is why I considered any paper in a PC journal to be part of PC. So that’s a completely different sort of cosmology than others to begin with, since even papers that have no relation to large scale structure fall under the scope of cosmology, and even includes theories that are not 100% consistent with each other. Which most people would dispute. More a framework than a cosmology strictly speaking. Lerner thinks.... I'm not sure, he's hard to contact (always busy with his fusion devices :D) and other people all seem to have their own plasma cosmologies, but reject unspecified areas of other parts with no particular reason. Anyways, lets have a go.


Firstly: A simple definition of plasma cosmology is that it is a simple extrapolation of laboratory physics to space that does not start with the assumption of an initial event of creation. While most cosmologies rely almost exclusively on mathematical constructs, based on various fundamental theories like GR and quantum gravity to find out ‘definitively' when the universe originated, then all work thereafter is formulated from this base, they are always subject to extra assumptions that may or may not turn out to be true. For this reason PC rejects these as a valid proof of an origin in space and time, and leaves the origin of the universe more open until concrete astrophysical data can accurately predict, in many independently verifiable ways, the distant epochs from which the universe is thought to have originated. PC’s position is that currently we do not have the knowledge to accurately know the exact and true origin of the entire universe, it is too hard to know this definitively for something that happened that long ago, the universe is assumed static and infinite, this is a default assumption in PC. Though the details are a bit more complex (see points below)





Now to my edit of RC’s definition of PC:

The scientific theory of Plasma Cosmology is that of Hannes Olof Gösta Alfvén. Alfvén's hypotheses regarding cosmology can be divided into three distinct areas.

1. The cosmic plasma, an empirical description of the Universe based on the results from laboratory experiments on plasmas
2. Birkeland currents (force free filaments), a proposed mechanism for the formation of large scale structure in the universe.
3. ambiplasma theory, based on a hypothetical matter/antimatter plasma.

Since this, the third point has received little or no experimental verification. Thus rendering the Alfven-Klein plasma cosmology incorrect.

The PC approach to cosmology of points one and two has been continued since by various scientists, with slight variations. This has lead to a generalising of the term plasma cosmology, and the term is often now used to describe any cosmology created within a plasma cosmology framework, instead of a specific cosmological theory. This can be compared to the various cosmological models formed within the Big Bang framework; the Big Bang itself would not be called a cosmology by itself, but cosmologies formed within this framework are. The most notable plasma cosmologies would be the original plasma cosmology of Hannes Alfvén, those theories developed by Peratt, Lerner and others in the 1980's and 90's, and various more recent models, such as the Plasma Redshift cosmology of Ari Brynjolfsson, CREIL based cosmology of Jacques Moret-Bailly, and others. While some aspects of each certainly are inconsistent, there are overlapping areas that are consistent, and it is likely that future plasma cosmologies will use aspects of each as theories are developed.

The definition of what makes a cosmological theory a "plasma cosmology" is that it follows a series of requirements, all with a common thread. A cosmology may be categorised as a plasma cosmology if it: (Note: this is off the top of my head, I may need to reconsider some of these after some thought)

A) Emphasizes the links between physical processes observable in laboratories on Earth and those that govern the cosmos. (Especially the link between the vast and varied properties of laboratory and space plasma, which have the potential to offer alternate explanations for many current theories where none existed previously.)

B) Does not require the introduction of hypothetical entities that have not been experimentally verified in controlled laboratory experiments, such mathematical constructs like inflation, dark matter and dark energy (or others, like quantum loop gravity, brane theories, etc)

C) An origin in time for the universe is rejected, due to causality arguments and rejection of ex nihilo models as a stealth form of creationism.

D) It is accepted that the further backwards in time we go, the larger is the uncertainty about the state. This approach does not necessarily lead to a “creation” at a certain time, nor does it exclude this possibility. In principle, it is also reconcilable with a universe which is “ungenerated and indestructible,” as Aristotle expressed it.

E) Since every part of the universe we observe is evolving, it assumes that the universe itself is evolving as well. A scalar expansion as predicted from the FRW metric is not accepted as part of this evolution, ie, the universe is assumed as static and infinite.

F) Since the universe is nearly all plasma (>99.99%), electromagnetic forces are in equal importance with gravitation on all scales. This negates the need for a finite collapsing universe, or a definitive beginning, as the exclusively attractive field of gravity is not the only force at work.

There seems to be an emphasis on the extension of laboratory experiments in theory to large sizes via plasma scaling See the Astrophysical application section for details of Peratts work on this scaling. Also see the Similarity Transformations for particle energy, velocity, potential, current and resistance, which are the basis for much plasma cosmology work. The observational evidence for this scaling has some gaps in it.

PC is well aware that the two or three laboratory experiments on gravity, that form the base of cosmology today, is an untested extrapolation over 14 orders of magnitude. Which is a quite a remarkable phenomenon.
So ...

... after almost 1,000 posts we've made essentially no progress?

Z, you were asked, way back at the beginning of this thread, to present a definition of PC that the discussion in this thread could be conducted within (or with reference to).

You refused to provide any such.

Close to the (current) end of this thread you got around to doing so.

That definition is quite stark, and somewhat surprising ... it explicitly and unambiguously declares PC to be non-science! :jaw-dropp

And you've done it again, in this post I'm quoting.

Has this thread been little more than a great waste of everyone's time and effort?
 
This part is so unbelievably stupid I can't stop myself from debunking it. It's just so completely contrary to reality... Zeuzzz, do you know anything about physics? Or just the history of physics in the 20th century? Did it somehow escape your notice that nearly everyone believed in a steady-state cosmology, until observations ruled it out? It was looking through telescopes that showed us that the universe is exapanding, not some "mathematical construct".


But many people who look up through the same telescopes come to quite different conclusions. The inflation field is just that, a mathematical construct that has no experimental verification from in situ controlled experiments. Observations imply it, but observations can be misleading. And alternatives exist.

Einstein, when he realized general relativity didn't allow steady state solutions, actually tried to modify his theory to accommodate them (he failed, because there are none that are stable). Not only is what you said false, it's actually the opposite of the truth.


"However, proofs of a universal singularity in the past all rely on additional hypotheses, which may or may not be true. For example, Stephen Hawking and George Ellis argued that generating the thermal, isotropic cosmic microwave background necessarily implies a gravitational singularity in our universe if the cosmological constant is zero.[59] Their calculation of the density of matter and thus their conclusion rested on the assumption that Thomson scattering is the most efficient process for thermalization. But in highly magnetized plasmas other processes such as inverse synchrotron absorption can be far more efficient, as Lerner points out in his theory of the microwave background.[60] With such efficient absorption and re-emission, the amount of plasma needed to thermalize the cosmic microwave background can be orders of magnitude less than that needed to produce a singularity." (link)

http://arxiv.org/abs/0705.2462 By repsected astronomer Richard Lieu

Astronomy can never be a hard core physics discipline, because the Universe offers no control experiment, i.e. with no independent checks it is bound to be highly ambiguous and degenerate. Thus e.g. while superluminal motion can be explained by Special Relativity. data on the former can never on their own be used to establish the latter. This is why traditionally astrophysicists have been content with (and proud of) their ability to use known physical laws and processes established in the laboratory to explain celestial phenomena. Cosmology is not even astrophysics: all the principal assumptions in this field are unverified (or unverifiable) in the laboratory, and researchers are quite comfortable with inventing unknowns to explain the unknown. How then could, after fifty years of failed attempt in finding dark matter, the fields of dark matter {\it and now} dark energy have become such lofty priorities in astronomy funding, to the detriment of all other branches of astronomy? I demonstrate in this article that while some of is based upon truth, at least just as much of $\Lambda$CDM cosmology has been propped by a paralyzing amount of propaganda which suppress counter evidence and subdue competing models.[....]


Well, he certainly seems to agree with my position. And so do many others.


It's you and your fellow woos that ignore reality in favor of some really bizarre plasma fetish. These ideas that you can just scale up lab-sized plasma phenomena to astrophysical scales, all because they look kinda similar, is just.... moronic. It's something a salad vegetable would come up with. We know[/i[ what the laws of physics are, especially as they apply to plasmas, and so we know how astrophysical plasmas behave. We don't need to operate as if physics were some kind of post-modern pseudophilosophical mystical bs - we can solve the equations and FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS.



It's you and your fellow woos that ignore what I am actually saying half the time. No-one is saying that you can "scale up lab-sized plasma phenomena to astrophysical scales, all because they look kinda similar" The founders of plasma cosmology are the people that have created all the models for plasma scaling still used to this day. Look at the wiki page for plasma scaling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_scaling), every reference on there is from Peratts or Alfvens work. Look at the similarity transformations. Look at all of it. Look at any publication that uses similarity transformations in plasma, they will all reference Alfven or Peratts work guaranteed. Their material is what all experts in this field still use to this day. If anyone can teach anyone about plasma scaling of phenomenon its them.

I'm sorry, do you have some alternative plasma scaling models? Hint: dont use any of the magnetohydrodynamic scaling models, because they were derived by Alfven too.
 
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So ...

... after almost 1,000 posts we've made essentially no progress?

Z, you were asked, way back at the beginning of this thread, to present a definition of PC that the discussion in this thread could be conducted within (or with reference to).

You refused to provide any such.

Close to the (current) end of this thread you got around to doing so.

That definition is quite stark, and somewhat surprising ... it explicitly and unambiguously declares PC to be non-science! :jaw-dropp

And you've done it again, in this post I'm quoting.

Has this thread been little more than a great waste of everyone's time and effort?



I dont know, as your not giving reasons for your assertions.

Anyone can claim this sort of thing about frameworks theories are developed within.

But the "big bang cosmology" that has emerged in this thread is not big bang cosmology, and is not a scientific theory. Since it's proponents claim that it is a scientific theory that makes it crackpottery.

The definition of "The big bang"is that it is a collection of scientific theories (not one consistent scientific theory) with a common thread (LCDM, CDM, steady state, etc, etc). This thread seems to be that the theory either emphasizes the contribution of energy being created out of nothing in the universe or is an expanding type cosmological theory.
 
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But many people who look up through the same telescopes come to quite different conclusions. The inflation field is just that, a mathematical construct that has no experimental verification.

This has nothing to do with inflation. You have no clue what you're talking about. The relevant observations were done by Hubble in the 1920's. Inflation was invented in the 1980's, and not experimentally confirmed until the 90's.

<snipped irrelevant and incorrect non-sequitor about singularity theorems

Or, i'm sorry, do you have some alternative plasma scaling methods? Hint: dont use any of the magnetohydrodynamic scaling models, because they were derived by Alfvens too.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. One can simply solve the relevant equations - scaling is just a convenient shortcut. Guess what? Those solutions don't do anything like what you think they do, and they lots of other things you can't seem to handle (like reconnect).
 
This has nothing to do with inflation. You have no clue what you're talking about. The relevant observations were done by Hubble in the 1920's. Inflation was invented in the 1980's, and not experimentally confirmed until the 90's.


And thats whats being disputed, the acceleration of the expansion.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. One can simply solve the relevant equations - scaling is just a convenient shortcut. Guess what? Those solutions don't do anything like what you think they do, and they lots of other things you can't seem to handle (like reconnect).


And what do you think I think the solutions look like? What claim of mine are you even referring to? Your misrepresenting my position yet again. I dont even know what you think my position is, or even what your referring to when your talking about my position. What publications are you referring to about 'moronic' scaling laboratory plasmas to space physics. Do you even know yourself?

Its ridiculous. I'm debating what you think my position is about something that I dont even know what your referring to, which in fact isn't even my position anyway. Its like arguing about an argument.

You merely adopt the stance of the pseudoskeptic, one of those who shout their objections but don’t take proper note of what is going on.

You dont have a clue what your talking about. Learn some plasma physics.

You would do well to read some of the plasma scaling work of Alfven and Peratt, Alfven even won a nobel prize for his work on plasma, and the MHD terms which include scaling properties. And these two people are the founders of the plasma cosmology you speak so disparigingly of.
 
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The definition of what makes a cosmological theory a "plasma cosmology" is that it follows a series of requirements, all with a common thread. A cosmology may be categorised as a plasma cosmology if it: (Note: this is off the top of my head, I may need to reconsider some of these after some thought)

A) Emphasizes the links between physical processes observable in laboratories on Earth and those that govern the cosmos. (Especially the link between the vast and varied properties of laboratory and space plasma, which have the potential to offer alternate explanations for many current theories where none existed previously.)
This is just as valid for gravity. Look up some of the 22,000 results in Google Scholar for "experimental tests of gravitation" or the 1874 papers in arXiv.org for the same phrase.

B) Does not require the introduction of hypothetical entities that have not been experimentally verified in controlled laboratory experiments, such mathematical constructs like inflation, dark matter and dark energy (or others, like quantum loop gravity, brane theories, etc)
Dark matter is an indirectly and directly observed phenomena -not a "mathematical construct".
Dark energy is an indirectly observed phenomena -not a "mathematical construct".
Infaltion is a bit theoretical and IMHO it would be nice if it was not needed but the universe just doesn't obey my wishes!

C) An origin in time for the universe is rejected, due to causality arguments and rejection of ex nihilo models as a stealth form of creationism.
This is philosophy not science. Science accepts any theory that fits the facts. It does not rule out a class of theories just because they do not look nice. Including this criteria make pc definitely non-science.

D) It is accepted that the further backwards in time we go, the larger is the uncertainty about the state. This approach does not necessarily lead to a “creation” at a certain time, nor does it exclude this possibility. In principle, it is also reconcilable with a universe which is “ungenerated and indestructible,” as Aristotle expressed it.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Maybe you are talking about uncertainties building up as you run equations back in time. We can actually measure the past state of the universe by observing it. The uncertainies in that state are those of the observations which are fairly constant (at least back to the earliest observed galaxy at 13 billion years ago).

E) Since every part of the universe we observe is evolving, it assumes that the universe itself is evolving as well. A scalar expansion as predicted from the FRW metric is not accepted as part of this evolution, ie, the universe is assumed as static and infinite.
If infinite includes eternal (no beginning) then this seems a contradiction - an evolving universe that is static and eternal? But I guess you are just stating that pc rejects expansion of the universe.

F) Since the universe is nearly all plasma (>99.99%), electromagnetic forces are in equal importance with gravitation on all scales. This negates the need for a finite collapsing universe, or a definitive beginning, as the exclusively attractive field of gravity is not the only force at work.
All forces are of equal importance (EM, gravity, weak and strong forces). But only gravity is a long-range attractive force at all scales. You know that EM forces tend to cancel out at large scales since they depend on the separation of charges.

There seems to be an emphasis on the extension of laboratory experiments in theory to large sizes via plasma scaling See the Astrophysical application section for details of Peratts work on this scaling. Also see the Similarity Transformations for particle energy, velocity, potential, current and resistance, which are the basis for much plasma cosmology work. The observational evidence for this scaling has some gaps in it.

PC is well aware that the two or three laboratory experiments on gravity, that form the base of cosmology today, is an untested extrapolation over 14 orders of magnitude. Which is a quite a remarkable phenomenon.
See above for the ~2000 papers on gravitational experiments and even more results from Google Scholar. This is not "two or three laboratory experiments on gravity".
PC is unaware that plasma scaling has limitations.
 
I dont know, as your not giving reasons for your assertions.

Anyone can claim this sort of thing about frameworks theories are developed within.

But the "big bang cosmology" that has emerged in this thread is not big bang cosmology, and is not a scientific theory. Since it's proponents claim that it is a scientific theory that makes it crackpottery.

The definition of "The big bang"is that it is a collection of scientific theories (not one consistent scientific theory) with a common thread (LCDM, CDM, steady state, etc, etc). This thread seems to be that the theory either emphasizes the contribution of energy being created out of nothing in the universe or is an expanding type cosmological theory.
OK, ...

Here it is (again):

"E) Since every part of the universe we observe is evolving, it assumes that the universe itself is evolving as well. A scalar expansion as predicted from the FRW metric is not accepted as part of this evolution, ie, the universe is assumed as static and infinite."

In other words, no matter what experiments are done or observations made, a core aspect of PC cannot be found to be inconsistent ... ever.

No need for high falutin' philosophy, no need for detailed technical considerations, there you have it, as starkly as you could imagine, a clear declaration of the non-science nature of PC.
 

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