Consciousness.....a basic rule of physics

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reverebison

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There is gravity.

There are subatomic forces and other laws that govern our universe

but there is one other law of nature that to my knowledge has not yet been fully appreciated, although I am sure it has been contemplated by many.


FOR EXISTENCE, YOU MUST HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS

This is why the unknowing, unfeeling, uncaring universe produces consciousness. It produces it infinitely. It spews it out from every point, every corner. Over and over again. Inifinitely. It has no choice. without it there can be no existence.

Since the universe is the very epitome of existence, it follows that it must produce consciousness.
 
reverebison said:
There is gravity.

There are subatomic forces and other laws that govern our universe

but there is one other law of nature that to my knowledge has not yet been fully appreciated, although I am sure it has been contemplated by many.


FOR EXISTENCE, YOU MUST HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS
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How do you figure?

This is why the unknowing, unfeeling, uncaring universe produces consciousness. It produces it infinitely. It spews it out from every point, every corner. Over and over again. Inifinitely. It has no choice. without it there can be no existence.

Since the universe is the very epitome of existence, it follows that it must produce consciousness.
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The vast majority of the universe is not conscious. What makes you think it is so important?

Also, are you saying it is impossible to have a universe without consciousness? What about the first few billion years?
 
reverebison said:
FOR EXISTENCE, YOU MUST HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS.
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No. It's sounds like Descartes "I think, therefore I am" in reverse. To KNOW existence YOU must have consciousness. But existence itself is independent of “you” and “knowing”.

If a person dies, their knowledge of existence ends. But certainly existence itself doesn’t end. If all conscious beings lived on Earth and Earth blew up, it would be like a person dying. All knowledge of existence ends. But certainly existence itself doesn’t end.

Existence does just fine on its own without anyone being conscious of it.
 
No. I recently read "The Infinite Book" by John Barrow, where he talks about the universe possibly being infinite in space. He is a Professor of Mathematics with some credibility. I will have another look at the book.
 
lionking said:
No. I recently read "The Infinite Book" by John Barrow, where he talks about the universe possibly being infinite in space. He is a Professor of Mathematics with some credibility. I will have another look at the book.
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I could see this in a topological sense, sort of a Klein bottle effect, but reversebison didn't seem to be speaking topologically.
 
I don't think Barrow is talking topologically, but agree that this is tangental to reverebison's OP.
 
lionking said:
I don't think Barrow is talking topologically, but agree that this is tangental to reverebison's OP.
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Meh, if this is anything like reverbison's previous OPs, it really doesn't matter what we discuss, as he will be back to spout off on the observer effect, consciousness, and the proof of some strange form of pantheism.

But to end this derail, if you find the bit in the book, PM me. I may try to find it in the local library, as that book sounds very interesting.
 
Hokulele said:
Meh, if this is anything like reverbison's previous OPs, it really doesn't matter what we discuss, as he will be back to spout off on the observer effect, consciousness, and the proof of some strange form of pantheism.

But to end this derail, if you find the bit in the book, PM me. I may try to find it in the local library, as that book sounds very interesting.
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Sort of off-topic (cont.) but the book is "The Infinite Book" by John D Barrow. I thought I had some sort of idea of infinity before reading this (twice, because it stretches the brain, even though it is written in layperson's terms). He covers the history of infinity, different scales of infinity, whether the universe is infinite, "infinity machines" etc. Deep, but satisfying.
 
reverebison said:
FOR EXISTENCE, YOU MUST HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS
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Evidence?

reverebison said:
This is why the unknowing, unfeeling, uncaring universe produces consciousness.
Click to expand...
Evidence?

reverebison said:
It produces it infinitely.
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Evidence?

reverebison said:
It spews it out from every point, every corner. Over and over again. Inifinitely. It has no choice. without it there can be no existence.
Click to expand...
Evidence?

reverebison said:
Since the universe is the very epitome of existence, it follows that it must produce consciousness.
Click to expand...
And once more for the kiddies at home: Evidence?
 
reverebison said:
FOR EXISTENCE, YOU MUST HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS
Click to expand...
No.

reverebison said:
This is why the unknowing, unfeeling, uncaring universe produces consciousness.
Click to expand...
No.

reverebison said:
It produces it infinitely.
Click to expand...
No.

reverebison said:
It spews it out from every point, every corner. Over and over again. Inifinitely. It has no choice. without it there can be no existence.
Click to expand...
No.

reverebison said:
Since the universe is the very epitome of existence, it follows that it must produce consciousness.
Click to expand...
And once more for the kiddies at home: No.
 
reverebison said:
FOR EXISTENCE, YOU MUST HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS
Click to expand...

This sounds to me like the Quantum Mechanical twist of the old philosophical question: If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it does it make a sound? Only the lack of context or equivocation throws grave doubts on what grounds you make such a claim.

On what grounds do you presume that the existence of something depends on an awareness of that existence? I'm willing to entertain such notions, within a restricted context, but for you to state that IS the case shows a lack of appreciation of the nature of the question.
 
reverebison said:
…This is why the unknowing, unfeeling, uncaring universe produces consciousness. It produces it infinitely. It spews it out from every point, every corner. Over and over again. Inifinitely. It has no choice. without it there can be no existence.

Since the universe is the very epitome of existence, it follows that it must produce consciousness.
Click to expand...

If I’m reading you right, then: First you proclaim that the universe is unknowing, unfeeling and uncaring, and right after you proclaim it must produce consciousness in order to exist. Think about that for a while!

What was the universe before it produced consciousness? Ah yes: according to you it was unknowing, unfeeling and uncaring… but it must have existed. How else could it have produced anything?
 
reverebison said:
There is gravity.

There are subatomic forces and other laws that govern our universe

but there is one other law of nature that to my knowledge has not yet been fully appreciated, although I am sure it has been contemplated by many.


FOR EXISTENCE, YOU MUST HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS

This is why the unknowing, unfeeling, uncaring universe produces consciousness. It produces it infinitely. It spews it out from every point, every corner. Over and over again. Inifinitely. It has no choice. without it there can be no existence.

Since the universe is the very epitome of existence, it follows that it must produce consciousness.
Click to expand...

Define cosciousness.
 
Why is everyone so afraid the oneness may be able to think?

DevilsAdvocate said:
No. It's sounds like Descartes "I think, therefore I am" in reverse. To KNOW existence YOU must have consciousness. But existence itself is independent of “you” and “knowing”.

If a person dies, their knowledge of existence ends. But certainly existence itself doesn’t end. If all conscious beings lived on Earth and Earth blew up, it would be like a person dying. All knowledge of existence ends. But certainly existence itself doesn’t end.

Existence does just fine on its own without anyone being conscious of it.
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:D Gee DevilsAdvocate, I just wonder how you can be so sure of yourself. I mean, how the hell could you possibly know whether or not the universe was somehow conscious or not? Maybe you should take another toke off the bong.
 
No, not another “what the bleep do we know” freak, what the heck does the fact of some one being conscious have to do whit anything.
 
if i hide something then i die, and no one else knows about it, does it not exist until someone finds it?
 
paximperium said:
To the Mods, please remove Bwin's garbage.
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Or leave it there as a reeking example of the kinds of arguments his best efforts are capable of putting forth. Insulting people like that speaks more poorly of the one making the insult than the one it's being directed against. But I won't complain if it gets moved.

Regarding the OP, I'd like to hear examples of how the universe has no choice but to spew consciousness out of every corner. It's an incredibly arrogant belief that not only assigns human qualities to the entire universe, but also asserts that the universe couldn't exist without it. In keeping with this line of reasoning, you might as well ask how big the universe's tallywhacker is, or assert that tallywhackers are a basic rule of physics that the universe creates everywhere you look.
 
Silentknight said:
Or leave it there as a reeking example of the kinds of arguments his best efforts are capable of putting forth. Insulting people like that speaks more poorly of the one making the insult than the one it's being directed against. But I won't complain if it gets moved.
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I think bwin is accusing others of using whacky tabaccy because he was insulted the same way in other threads.

Not that two wrongs make a right or anything.
 
I imagine reverebison's response to these replies will be along the lines of 'I don't understand your objections to my perfectly clear argument, therefore they are incorrect.'

(What's so great about buffalo anyway?)
 
What is existence? What is the difference between something and nothing if there is no consciousness?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the OP. I don't think matter suddenly springs into being only when it is being observed. But I'm not sure what existence means without any consciousness to realize it exists.

Trust me on this one. When you die you won't know the difference between something and nothing. They are the same.
 
RandFan said:
What is existence? What is the difference between something and nothing if there is no consciousness?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the OP. I don't think matter suddenly springs into being only when it is being observed. But I'm not sure what existence means without any consciousness to realize it exists.

Trust me on this one. When you die you won't know the difference between something and nothing. They are the same.
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Well, you can't know anything when you're dead.
 
Rand Fan: By God you get it man. I could not have said anything better myself. Now I don't want to laud you too much as unpopular as I am with these thinkers, that might give you a bad name. And I am not saying you agree with me. But at lease you understand what I am saying. the other thinkers just don't.

Nothing just happens without an ultimate explanation. There is a logical explanation for everything that happens in our universe. Eventually we will discover the why gravity happens and why there are subatomic forces. We know zilch now.

There is a reason for consciousness. existence and consciousness are married. Consciousness doesnt just happen anymore than gravity does. And the universe produces consciousness, not out of accident.

Thinkers.....Understand this....in the universe, accidents don't exist.


The fact that there may have been times in our universe when no consciousness existed, means nothing. The fact that you are now conscious does. The fact that conciousness ever existed at all means everything.
 
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reverebison said:
Rand Fan: By God you get it man. I could not have said anything better myself. Now I don't want to laud you too much as unpopular as I am with these thinkers, that might give you a bad name. And I am not saying you agree with me. But at lease you understand what I am saying. the other thinkers just don't.

Nothing just happens without an ultimate explanation. There is a logical explanation for everything that happens in our universe. Eventually we will discover the why gravity happens and why there are subatomic forces. We know zilch now.

There is a reason for consciousness. existence and consciousness are married. Consciousness doesnt just happen anymore than gravity does. And the universe produces consciousness, not out of accident.

Thinkers.....Understand this....in the universe, accidents don't exist.


The fact that there may have been times in our universe when no consciousness existed, means nothing. The fact that you are now conscious does. The fact that conciousness ever existed at all means everything.
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Suppose that I state 'Everything that happens has no explanation, everything is an accident. Consciousness was never meant to exist except for the anomalous occasions when it does exist.'

What makes your statements any more valid?
 
RandFan said:
What is existence? What is the difference between something and nothing if there is no consciousness?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the OP. I don't think matter suddenly springs into being only when it is being observed. But I'm not sure what existence means without any consciousness to realize it exists.

Trust me on this one. When you die you won't know the difference between something and nothing. They are the same.
Click to expand...

If a universe exists with no consciousness in it, does it still make a sound?
 
Twiler said:
Well, you can't know anything when you're dead.
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Yeah, that's the point. Setting aside idealism for the moment, existence is only a state of mind. Yep, even if we assume materialism over idealism it still doesn't change the fact that the world out there only exists in our minds. Something isn't any different than nothing unless there is something to appreciate it.
 
RandFan said:
Yeah, that's the point. Setting aside idealism for the moment, existence is only a state of mind. Yep, even if we assume materialism over idealism it still doesn't change the fact that the world out there only exists in our minds. Something isn't any different than nothing unless there is something to appreciate it.
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Philosophical claptrap, the fact is that our minds only exist in our minds as for the existence of everything else; well you can pay that no mind if you want but that is not advisable. If you think a hammer does not exist (except in your mind) then try to think the hammer away as you bash yourself in the head with it (or have someone else do it if they don’t mind) until you prove the hammer does not exist, your mind does not exist or you finally choose to mind the existence of the hammer (and perhaps the other person) outside of your mind and bashing you in the head. I doubt you will execute the first blow before you recognize the existence of the hammer over the existence of your mind. Should you execute one or more blows and even choose the claw side of the hammer to strike with, then I might doubt the applicability of the existence of your mind but not the applicability of the existence of the hammer.**


** This research project is not recommended and would be considered illegal under existing law.


How does “something to appreciate it” constitute nothing? So, “Something isn't any different than nothing” when nothing is not nothing because you choose to require “something to appreciate it” for it to be nothing?
 
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