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Hillary as Secretary Of State? Change?

You attach a bizarre significance to the fact that Starr obtained witness statments made after the crime.

There is nothing at all bizarre about questioning the veracity of witnesses who said one thing the night of and days following Foster's death and then claimed something entirely different a little over a week later ... coincidentally, shortly after a meeting was held in the Whitehouse to discuss an obviously bogus *suicide* note that *mysteriously* appeared (according to one of Clinton's lawyers) inside a briefcase a week after the contents of that briefcase had been dumped out in the presence of Park Police and found not to include a suicide note. If you can't see that as significant, you wouldn't make much of a detective. :)

So, Starr is being dishonest when he says, and I quote from the report here:

Quote:
Dr. Lee noted that Dr. Beyer had "observed a large amount of liquid blood in the body bag and in Mr. Foster's body,"

Do you know who Dr. Lee is? He's the expert who embarrassed himself in the Simpson case. Called by the defense, jurors cited Lee as a key factor in their acquittal of Simpson. During the trial, he was soundly criticized for his speculative testimony about blood stain patterns. Two FBI experts said that what Lee said certain things were, was not what they were. One of them, Douglas Deedrich called Lee's research "inadequate" and suggested Lee was "irresponsible" to have made the inferences he made. Later, Lee said "I don't want to talk about it." John Hicks, who retired in 1994 as an assistant director of the FBI crime lab, is on record saying that Lee's testimony cost him credibility "with a lot of people in the forensic community." "I think he is definitely a hired gun," Hicks said. So perhaps he was just a hired gun for Starr, too? :D

And apparently, you are unaware that Dr Lee wrote a book, "Famous Crimes Revisited", where he "admitted that some of the evidence that Foster was murdered was 'compelling.'" According to http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/lee-denies-he-wants-new-foster-probe/, Dr Lee was interviewed by a Globe reporter and during that interview said he would like to see a new Foster probe. He also reportedly

said that he had never read the statements given by the witnesses, including those who saw the body at the crime scene and even the medical examiner who performed the autopsy. He first said he didn't know that this medical examiner, Dr. James Beyer, had lied to explain the absence of x-rays of Foster's head, but later in the interview he let it slip that he had been told that the machine "chewed up the x-rays." He claimed he didn't know that Dr. Beyer's office did not request a service call to fix the x-ray machine until over three months after Foster's death. He also claimed he didn't know that the Park Police officer who tried to find an exit wound by feeling the back of Foster's head could find only a soft spot, no hole. He reported that there was no exit wound, but Dr. Beyer claimed he found a hole the size of a half dollar.

As the AIM article notes,

If he didn't read any of the witness interviews, Lee had no way of knowing that Foster's dead body arrived at Fort Marcy Park before his car did. His book says suspicious-looking men were seen around Foster's car. That shows he was familiar with what three eyewitnesses reported. But he apparently doesn't know that they were not describing Foster's car. They all described an older model brown Honda that was parked where Foster's silver gray 1989 Honda was found by the police. A car fitting the description of Foster's Honda was not seen in that spot until hours after the estimated time of his death.

Now Lee later claimed he didn't call for a new probe in the interview but as AIM points out,

If Lee is sure Foster committed suicide, what is this case doing in a book about famous crimes, all murders but one? Why does this chapter end saying, "Time will tell what really happened?"

Other than that, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Other than Dr Lee likes to speculate. :D

Is Rodriguez being just as dishonest, when he says

Quote:
The fact is, a number of people have said there was a small amount where the body was originally found. Later on it's moved to a horizontal position at the top of the berm where it does have some seepage under the body. And then when they put it in the body bag they see, faced in that horizontal position, there's a ten-inch or so bloodstain under the body.

Of course not. And this just shows that where the body was originally found, there wasn't much blood. The large amounts of blood appeared after it was moved (against procedure) to a new location. To bad they effectively destroyed what that shirt could have told them about what happened to Foster. :D

And again, you seem to attach some strange significance to the fact that there wasn't much blood before Foster was moved

Why do you see the significance of that as strange? Starr's claim is that a hole over an inch in diameter was blown out the top of Foster's head with a high velocity bullet. Even a modicum of common sense should tell you that there should have been blood and brains all over the area. He had a hole in his mouth, too. Yet there wasn't much blood in evidence. Or brains. Or missing pieces of skull. Or the bullet. There wasn't blood on the gun. There wasn't blood on Foster hands. There wasn't blood on his sleeve. Now how in the world could that be?

Here's what happens when someone really shoots himself in the mouth:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/FOSTER_COVERUP/SUICIDE/suicide.html

a definition "where the body was originally found" that would confuse the hell out of any CSI.

True. They'd wonder what incompetent moved the body. And perhaps suspect the person who ordered it moved. :D

Try a little experiment at home, BAC

ROTFLOL! This is so like something a 9/11 truther would suggest.

Because I'm not reading what Gavin said, but what someone else reported that yet someone else says Gavin said.

You are still avoiding the question. Seems to me you have only a few options. You can claim the SS memo is a complete fabrication. You can claim that the ID/DO made two very serious transcription errors when contacted by Lt Woltz. You can claim that Lt Woltz made two very serious transcription errors when contacted by Lt Gavin. You can claim that Lt Gavin completely misunderstood whatever happened when he arrived at the park and apparently spoke with whoever was there at the time. Or you can assume that Foster's body and gun were indeed in the car when discovered. Pick one. And also tell us whether Starr ever investigated this curious memo or did he show no interest?

In a chaotic situation when someone is reporting on a report of a report? Even Secret Service agents don't have superhuman transcription powers.

Well do you think what was said was that they discovered the body and gun "near" his car and someone heard "in" his car? I'm curious what you think the transcription error was?

And how come the 9/11 Commission never resolved why so many witnesses to the WTC attacks reported hearing sounds like bombs, if there were no bombs that brought down the towers?

There's a difference. This was a Secret Service memo in a case where the cause of death really wasn't all that obvious (remember ... the EMTs on the scene wrote it down as a homocide). And keep in mind that the Secret Service has not told us how Foster got out of the Whitehouse without logging out or being seen on any of the video cameras that are surely surveilling the facility.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo
Perhaps you'd like to explain why Knowlton's appendix goes to great lengths to try and paint all the blood found with Foster's body as either in tiny amounts or as "dried" and "old"?

Posted by BeAChooser: Is Knowlton talking about the blood seen on the outside of the body or the blood inside the body? You see, it makes a difference.

Unless Foster was refilled with blood after it poured out at the original location he was murdered at (and meticulously cleaned up with his clothes dry-cleaned) so it could pour out and smear around again later, no it doesn't make a difference.

Are you really claiming that ALL the blood had drained out of Foster at the location where the body was first found? If so, why did the EMTs and others say they saw little blood at that location? Did it evaporate into thin air? And do you really know what Foster said about the state of what little blood was at the original scene? Because you admit you haven't bothered to read the 500 page report by Knowlton. Are you just making things up as you go along here? Just trolling for the sake of it? :D

Quote:
And what was that question? If the doctor asked Foster how he was doing ... whether he was depressed?

WHY the doctor asked whether he was depressed if Foster himself didn't mention it.

Because he wanted to find out why Foster wasn't sleeping. Because the good doctor was concerned Foster might be depressed. Now do you think that is significant in some way? Does it alter any of the dosage information that I posted a while ago? Does it alter what the doctor wrote down about his treatment? The doctor concluded that Foster was at worst mildly depressed and not in crisis. And prescribed medicine at the dosage recommended for treating insomnia, not depression.

Quote:
I've answered that previously.

Indeed.

Then this is at least the second time that you've asked a question that I've already answered.

And you've been backing away from that initial answer ever since

Care to prove that? With actual quotes? Or should we just label you a liar?

Matt Drudge might disagree.

ROTFLOL!

http://www.jdlasica.com/articles/colapr98.html

How should the mainstream media respond to lone-wolf cyber-reporting on the Internet? Not by lowering journalistic standards

Guess they aren't one and the same.

I hate to break this to you, BAC, but Linda Tripp making a statement doesn't quite count as "the original senate investigation report".

I hate to break this to you but I was only trying to prove, using mainstream sources, that senate investigations of this matter exist and they put out reports. I asked you earlier to show us how to acquire those report using your vast mainstream links on the internet. Still waiting. Or are you prepared to admit that just because something isn't published by a mainstream source on the internet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist? :D

Just as it undermines your assertion that they included Knowlton's claims because they did have merit.

But unlike you, I have basis for saying they thought that. Because the addendum is politically inflammatory and they'd be quite reluctant to force Starr to attach something like that to his report unless they thought there was a good reason. And clearly, the reason isn't that they were forced to by law.

They simply ruled on a matter of law regarding that specific statute.

That's false. The judges were NOT required to force Starr to attach the addendum to the final report. They were only required to allow witnesses named in the report to submit comments and factual information to them.

Perhaps, for a hat trick, you can explain how my doubting a specific document you apparently could only find on conspiracy websites differs from your strawman assertion that I "claim the mainstream media reports all".

Funny how any source you don't like immediately becomes a "conspiracy" website. Then you can sweep it under the rug and not have to deal with anything it reports.

But I'd be willing to compare the veracity in reporting facts of many of those "conspiracy" websites to that of your mainstream media outlets any day of the week. Especially where the Clintons and democrats are concerned.

But for now, can you find a link to the Senate Foster report in the mainstream media? :D
 
Before I go to that trouble, let's establish whether you are open to a few possibilities.

Are you open to the possibility that Vince Foster was murdered? And if he was murdered, would you agree there might be reason to question making Hillary Secretary of State given her actions following his death?

Will you agree that even if Foster wasn't murdered, efforts by her to obstruct justice in the Whitewater case, if evident, would be reason to question making Hillary Secretary of State?

Are you open to the possibility that Hillary was involved in Filegate? And if she was, would you agree there is then good reason to question making her Secretary of State?

Are you open to the possibility that Hillary was involved in ChinaGate and CampaignFinanceGate? And if she was, would you agree that would be a good reason not to make her Secretary of State?

And finally, are you open to the possibility that Kenneth Starr was controlled by the Clintons? And if he was, can you trust any outcome of any investigation he was involved in related to them?
Sorry, I've been away.

Uh... hell yeah. I'm "open" to any possibility. I'm open to 9/11 being an American government conspiracy. I'm open to any JFK conspiracy. I just ask for evidence. That's all. That's fair don't you think?

ETA: If by "open" you mean the typical CT version of open where you have to set aside skepticsim and critical thinking then I'm not open. As James Randi says, you shouldn't be so open minded that your brains fall out.
 
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50 to 150mg per day for major depression!

What was Foster prescribed again? 50mg to start, working up to 150mg per day. Remarkable coincidence, don't you think?

Your desperation is showing. You forgot the word "START:" Why do you think they put that at the beginning of that line? And you forgot that bit about dividing the doses (Foster's prescription called for the entire amount to be taken at bedtime, qhs). And you ignored that part about the effective dose. You do know what "effective" and "therapeutic" dose means, don't you? With respect to that, here's one more source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jG...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

The main indication for the use of trazodone is major depressive disorder. There is a clear dose-response relationship, with dosages of 250 to 600 mg a day being necessary for trazodone to have therapeutic benefit.

:D

His doctor gave him a prescription for an anti-depressant, for a dosage higher than that normally given for insomnia

On what do you base the claim that dosage prescribed for Foster is higher than normally given for insomnia? The link you quoted says the dose is 25mg to 100mg. I suppose that range is less than the 150 mg that the doctor said Foster could increase to but I cited three other sources above that showed a range to 150 mg and even beyond isn't all that unusual. One said "the usual dose for trazodone is 50–100 mg at bedtime, but some patients may need doses as high as 150–200 mg." It is admitted that Foster was having a LOT of trouble sleeping. Maybe he's one of those patients the doctor judged "might" need a little more than the "normal" dose. The other two sources I cites said "the dosage range is 50 to 150 mg", and "used in the range of 25 to 150 mg, which is lower than its effective antidepressant dose". So even the "normal" dose range may not be as definite as you try to suggest.

(note how few of these drug information websites talk about dosages for insomnia being 150mg, and how many for 100mg or lower)

This is just disinformation you've made up. You've done no statistical study to prove your case. You cited ONE website. Two of the websites I cited suggest you are wrong where the "normal" dose is concerned. And here are some more dealing with the insomnia dosage that suggest you are wrong:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/508820

The dose of trazodone needed to induce and maintain sleep is not well understood. Thus, clinicians use anywhere from 25 mg to 150 mg taken at bedtime as a hypnotic dose.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc...=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA85,M1

Mood Disorders By S. Nassir Ghaemi ... snip ... Trazodone was dosed similarly to TCAs, requiring about 300 mg/day or more for effect, which often led to sedation. As a result, trazodone soon developed a niche as a sleep aid, especially in low doses (25 to 150 mg/day).

http://www.hopkins-hivguide.org/diagnosis/organ_system/psychiatric/insomnia.html

Trazodone (25-200 mg qhs) most common antidepressant used for treatment of insomnia.

And by the way, do you know how many 50 mg tablets the doctor prescribed for Foster? 30. That doesn't suggest he expected Foster to actually be using 3 a day, does it? Don't doctors usually prescribe for 30 days? Looks like it was more a case of letting Foster see if he could get a good night sleep at 50 mg and if that didn't work then they'd step up the dosage to a maximum of 3 a day. That's why the pharmacy said the prescription said "1 - 3 pills at bedtime". Sounds reasonable. Certainly a lot more reasonable than your conjecture. At least it fits the facts. :D
 
Maybe you can answer that, BAC. Why are you still free to write these things?

Simple. Because they figure that only a few people will every read them on this tiny website called JREF. A drop in the bucket. Indeed, my comments are akin to dropping a pebble in the ocean. Even I realize they aren't going to change anything. But the way they are received does make me wonder if this really is a "skeptics" forum.

Now need I say that your latest red herring doesn't change any of the facts I've noted either? Why do you have so much trouble actually confronting the facts, Tricky? You seem to have plunged into redherring and strawman land in this thread. ANYTHING to avoid directly challenging the facts. Why?
 
I just ask for evidence. That's all. That's fair don't you think?

Of course. Which is why I've posted mountains of evidence on this thread (and then gotten roundly criticized for doing it). :rolleyes:

Now as to that list you wanted, you'll have to give me a while to prepare it. It will take some sorting through, condensing and summarizing so much material. I'll focus on some of the points I made in my previous post to you and what I think are key points. There are in fact, many, many other pieces of evidence to support my concerns. But let's see if you can directly challenge or will accept as valid the specific facts I note. Or whether you do what Tricky and the others have done on this thread and run from the facts while tossing out mountains of redherrings, strawmen, disinformation and speculative conjecture. That's fair don't you think?
 
I'll focus on some of the points I made in my previous post to you and what I think are key points.
Keep it simple. Your key pieces of evidence should be fine. I'd like to point out one more time that I'm no fan of the Clinton's and think little of the morality of either of them.

Bring it on. If the evidence and your argument is compelling I can tell you right now that I will gladly join you in your lone fight. I mean that with all sincerity. I'm not here to be popular and I've taken unpopular positions in the past.
 
And by the way, do you know how many 50 mg tablets the doctor prescribed for Foster? 30. That doesn't suggest he expected Foster to actually be using 3 a day, does it? Don't doctors usually prescribe for 30 days? Looks like it was more a case of letting Foster see if he could get a good night sleep at 50 mg and if that didn't work then they'd step up the dosage to a maximum of 3 a day. That's why the pharmacy said the prescription said "1 - 3 pills at bedtime". Sounds reasonable. Certainly a lot more reasonable than your conjecture. At least it fits the facts.

Thanks, BAC, you have finally taught me something. I was not aware that Desyrel was ever dosed as high as 150 mg for insomnia. Unfortunately, many of your other medical assumptions are incorrect.

Doctors will often prescribe for 30 days when a patient is taking a medication chronically. When a patient is starting a new medication, especially one that may have side effects, smaller numbers of pills are often given as it forces the patient to return for evaluation. Thus you cannot conclude that 30 pills was supposed to be a 30 day supply. Especially since the doctor stated that he was starting at 50 mg with the plan to increase to 150 mg.

Let us look at some of the other evidence that the drug was likely given at least in part for depression.

Sleep aids are usually dosed "prn" or "as needed": you do not take them every day, only on days you are having trouble getting to sleep. I'm not sure Desyrel is dosed this way: you see, its use as a sleep aid is off label, and thus there are no official dosing guidelines. Antidepressants, on the other hand, are dosed to be taken regularly. The patient should not stop the drug abruptly or skip doses even if he is currently asymptomatic. Was Foster's prescription "prn?" or as a standing dose?

Second, the Starr report quotes Dr. Watkins:

I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was
to start with one at bedtime and move up to three.

Note that once again he does not say "move up to three as needed." He says "move up to 3". Why would he plan to increase the dose right from the outset without waiting to find out if 50 mg was enough to control the insomnia if insomnia was all that he was treating?

All of this is largely irrelevant. Dr. Watkins could have prescribed no antidepressant at all and it would not alter the fact that he thought Foster was depressed. As did his sister, who gave him the list of 3 psychiatrists that was found in his wallet when he died. Their belief that the depression was mild and situational does not exclude the possibility that the depression was more severe than they thought. He may still have been suicidal. Foster most likely knew that an admission of suicidal ideation would have been an end to his white house career. Thus it is entirely predictable that he would deny it. This is not to imply that I believe that he definitely lied when he said he had no thoughts of suicide, only that his statement is of little use in determining his true state of mind.
 
But let's see if you can directly challenge or will accept as valid the specific facts I note. Or whether you do what Tricky and the others have done on this thread and run from the facts while tossing out mountains of redherrings, strawmen, disinformation and speculative conjecture. That's fair don't you think?
I think you need also answer a question. Are you open to the possibility that you are wrong?
 
I think you need also answer a question. Are you open to the possibility that you are wrong?

I'm pretty sure he's not. In the Ron Brown thread he made it pretty clear that he didn't think it was possible for someone to dislike Clinton and also disagree with the conspiracy theories. They were obviously all just lying about disliking Clinton.

He'll accuse you of the same, no doubt.
 
I'm pretty sure he's not. In the Ron Brown thread he made it pretty clear that he didn't think it was possible for someone to dislike Clinton and also disagree with the conspiracy theories. They were obviously all just lying about disliking Clinton.

He'll accuse you of the same, no doubt.
True. In this very thread he accused Darth Rotor of being in the "Clan of Clinton." Darth, a Navy man down to the core of his being, is as likely to be an Al Qaeda fan as he is to being a Clinton Fan.

So ask if you want some entertainment, RF, but don't expect any real evidence, only regurgitation from his pet hate sites. As has been demonstrated, BAC shrugs off contradicting evidence, as shown above in his exchanges with gdnp. Oh, and definitely don't expect anything concise and self contained. You will get a wall of words.
 
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Your desperation is showing. You forgot the word "START:"

Wait...I say "What was Foster prescribed again? 50mg to start, working up to 150mg per day." You quote that very sentence, and your response is "You forgot the word "START:""

And I'm the one showing desperation?

Why do you think they put that at the beginning of that line? And you forgot that bit about dividing the doses (Foster's prescription called for the entire amount to be taken at bedtime, qhs).

No it didn't (or, at least, we don't know for sure one way or the other, based on the limited information in Watkins' statement). It was to start with 50 mg at bedtime, that part is clear. Eventually Foster was to take three (presumably meaning three 50mg pills of it, but Watkins isn't explicit), though when he was supposed to take those three is not specified in Watkins' statement.

Do you have something showing that Foster was indeed supposed to take all three pills in one single dose?


And you ignored that part about the effective dose. You do know what "effective" and "therapeutic" dose means, don't you?

I see you are not only running with your lie that I totally ignored the "to start" note in his prescription, but you're pretending that I didn't answer all these questions in the post you're responding to, when I showed where the FDA's own recommendations are that the prescription start low and work up to the dose to be given, and that the prescribing doctor check how the patient is responding to the drug before increasing the dosage.



It is admitted that Foster was having a LOT of trouble sleeping.

It is? by who? I recall descriptions of Foster's insomnia, but not anything showing that it was particularly severe.

Maybe he's one of those patients the doctor judged "might" need a little more than the "normal" dose. The other two sources I cites said "the dosage range is 50 to 150 mg", and "used in the range of 25 to 150 mg, which is lower than its effective antidepressant dose". So even the "normal" dose range may not be as definite as you try to suggest.

I note here that you've gone from saying in post 223 "And as I pointed out with sources that you just ignored, the dosage of the drug recommended for treating depression is considerably higher than that for insomnia", to speculating that Foster's severe insomnia might have caused his doctor to prescribe "a little more than the "normal" dose," now that you realize what the "normal" dose for insomnia really is and that Foster's prescribed dosage was for the higher initial antidepressant levels and not the usual lower insomnia levels.



This is just disinformation you've made up. You've done no statistical study to prove your case. You cited ONE website. Two of the websites I cited suggest you are wrong where the "normal" dose is concerned. And here are some more dealing with the insomnia dosage that suggest you are wrong:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/508820



http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc...=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA85,M1



http://www.hopkins-hivguide.org/diagnosis/organ_system/psychiatric/insomnia.html

I did not quote the page I did to play "dueling Google searches" with you. It was to show you that simply cherrypicking drug information sites on the web to quote doesn't prove your assertions, since I can also find drug information sites, and my sites match my interpretation of events a lot closer than your sites matched your interpretation of events.

Something that you tacitly acknowledge (as I note above) by changing your interpretation to backpedal away from your earlier claims regarding what Foster's prescribed dosage implies.

And by the way, do you know how many 50 mg tablets the doctor prescribed for Foster? 30. That doesn't suggest he expected Foster to actually be using 3 a day, does it? Don't doctors usually prescribe for 30 days? Looks like it was more a case of letting Foster see if he could get a good night sleep at 50 mg and if that didn't work then they'd step up the dosage to a maximum of 3 a day. That's why the pharmacy said the prescription said "1 - 3 pills at bedtime". Sounds reasonable. Certainly a lot more reasonable than your conjecture. At least it fits the facts. :D

I'll let gdnp's response to you about this issue speak for me here.
 
Doctors will often prescribe for 30 days when a patient is taking a medication chronically. When a patient is starting a new medication, especially one that may have side effects, smaller numbers of pills are often given as it forces the patient to return for evaluation. Thus you cannot conclude that 30 pills was supposed to be a 30 day supply. Especially since the doctor stated that he was starting at 50 mg with the plan to increase to 150 mg.

It's also worth noting that for some medications, doctors are not permitted to prescribe for more than 30 days. Though in fairness, I have no idea if Desyrel is such a medication.
 
There is nothing at all bizarre about questioning the veracity of witnesses who said one thing the night of and days following Foster's death and then claimed something entirely different a little over a week later ...

Just 9/11 witnesses saying one thing in the chaotic aftermath of the event and something different later means 9/11 was an inside job, right?


Do you know who Dr. Lee is?

Yes. And he's quoting someone else (Dr. Beyer) in the quote I gave you.



Ah, yes. Your old friend AIM.


Other than that, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Other than Dr Lee likes to speculate. :D

It doesn't surprise me that you missed the point, though I have no doubt you did so willfully.

I was asking you to compare the quoted descriptions given by your beloved Rodriquez and your nemesis Starr, and point out why, if they are entirely consistent with each other (and they are), that one is the work of a Clinton-loving liar and the other is the dramatic revelation of a brave investigator.


Of course not. And this just shows that where the body was originally found, there wasn't much blood. The large amounts of blood appeared after it was moved (against procedure) to a new location.

So, if the blood came out and got all over everything when he was moved, and you claim the body was moved at least once before it was "officially" found...why didn't the body as "officially" found have blood all over the place?

To bad they effectively destroyed what that shirt could have told them about what happened to Foster. :D

Like a signed confession from Hillary herself, presumably?


Here's what happens when someone really shoots himself in the mouth:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/FOSTER_COVERUP/SUICIDE/suicide.html

An entire internet full of non-crackpot science, forensic, and medical websites, and you quote from whatreallyhappened.com. Again.

ROTFLOL! This is so like something a 9/11 truther would suggest.

Analogies, metaphors, and similes must terrify you.


You are still avoiding the question. Seems to me you have only a few options. You can claim the SS memo is a complete fabrication. You can claim that the ID/DO made two very serious transcription errors when contacted by Lt Woltz. You can claim that Lt Woltz made two very serious transcription errors when contacted by Lt Gavin. You can claim that Lt Gavin completely misunderstood whatever happened when he arrived at the park and apparently spoke with whoever was there at the time. Or you can assume that Foster's body and gun were indeed in the car when discovered. Pick one. And also tell us whether Starr ever investigated this curious memo or did he show no interest?

And why did someone as high-ranking as Norm Mineta say Vice President Cheney was "absolutely" in the presidential bunker at 9:25AM, when the so-called "official account" doesn't have Cheney arriving until 9:58AM?

Because mistakes are made, even by the most competent of people, and if something is contradicted by the preponderance of the over evidence in the case, what you have is indeed an error and not evidence of a cover-up.

Savvy?

Gavin did not arrive on the scene until after a number of other police officers and emergency workers were already on the scene. None of those other officers said anything about Foster's body being in his car. Even the timeline of events in Knowlton's own rambling statement has Gonzalez, Hall, Fornshill, Ferstl, Spetz, Edwards, Arthur, Iacone, Wacha, Pisani and Hodakievic all on the scene before Gavin was. All of them describe the body and the car being found separately, and at some distance from each other (and even Knowlton doesn't dispute that, as he simply describes Gavin as ordering a search of Foster's car, but says nothing about Foster's body actually being found there).

So, either the body was moved from where it was found in the park (after it was found) to Foster's car in time for Gavin to find it (and for it to be moved back to the park after that), Starr's cruel conspiratorial tentacles managed to pay off every single one of the police and emergency workers (and, somehow, Knowlton) save for the mysterious exceptions of Gavin and the Secret Service agents, or the SS report is in error.

Well do you think what was said was that they discovered the body and gun "near" his car and someone heard "in" his car? I'm curious what you think the transcription error was?

Gavin shows up on the scene after everyone else has already arrived. He sees them swarming around the body in the park, and is told that a car with Arkansas plates is in the parking lot some distance away. He then reports to the Secret Service that "we think we've discovered the body of Vince Foster, and his car, here in the park".

However, he says it as "we think we've discovered the body of Vince Foster n' his car." The SS agent transcribes it as he hears it, and it appears in the report as "PARK POLICE DISCOVERED THE BODY OF VINCENT FOSTER IN HIS CAR."

And keep in mind that the Secret Service has not told us how Foster got out of the Whitehouse without logging out or being seen on any of the video cameras that are surely surveilling the facility.

You do realize, of course, that this is a problem even if Foster was murdered? If Foster was murdered in the White House, how did the conspirators get his body out of the building? And if he wasn't murdered in the White House but wasn't killed in the park, how did Foster get out of the White House without logging out or being seen on any of the video cameras that are surely surveilling the facility, so he could get to that non-park location where he was murdered?

Are you really claiming that ALL the blood had drained out of Foster at the location where the body was first found? If so, why did the EMTs and others say they saw little blood at that location?

Conveniently ignoring the "meticulously cleaned up with his clothes dry-cleaned" part of my question, I see.


And do you really know what Foster said about the state of what little blood was at the original scene?

Via seance, no doubt.



Then this is at least the second time that you've asked a question that I've already answered.

I'm making a point about how you're running away from the implications of your initial answer.

Care to prove that? With actual quotes? Or should we just label you a liar?

Sure.

In post 184, gdnp posted "You have repeatedly said that Foster showed no signs of depression." He reproduced a list of depression symptoms from WebMD, including insomnia.

In the very next post, 185, I ask you a direct question: "Why would the doctor ask, unprompted, if Foster was depressed, do you think?"

In post 190, you reply to gdnp, mocking the idea that Foster's insomnia was in any way related to depression, quoting his WebMD symptoms list and saying "Sorry gdnp, you are still avoiding the facts. Foster's family, friends and work associates, when interviewed immediatedly after his death, said he was not depressed ... that they saw no signs of depression. Starr lied when he later claimed they did."

In post 193, you answer my direct question: "Because Foster wasn't sleeping? "

Let me repeat that. I ask you "Why would the doctor ask, unprompted, if Foster was depressed, do you think?", and you reply "Because Foster wasn't sleeping?"

In other words, you yourself made the connection that Foster's doctor thought Foster might be suffering from depression to a degree that he, as a doctor, was concerned about, because of Foster's insomnia.

You apparently realized that what you said contradicted the case you were trying to make, that Foster's insomnia wasn't in any way symptomatic of depression, and certainly not symptomatic of a depression severe enough to worry a doctor who might prescribe an antidepressant, because in post 199 I press you about the connection that, again, you yourself made: "Now, what does insomnia and anorexia have to do with depression? In other words, what about insomnia and anorexia might have prompted Foster's doctor to ask him about depression?"

In post 204, you start backpedaling furiously from that connection you made, saying "That's you conjecturing ... while ignoring the documented fact that the doctor prescribed the drug for insomnia, not because of depression."

Except that what you were attacking was your own conjecture, not mine, and I tell you that in post 208: "I'm not conjecturing anything. I'm asking you why YOU posted what you did, and what YOU think Foster's doctor was thinking when he (presumably) asked Foster about depression.

A question you still haven't answered."


That's the question you are still avoiding, because you recoil from the implications of what you yourself suggested.


From your link:
"We have entered a new media reality, one in which lone-wolf cyber- columnists like Matt Drudge have the ability to explode a major story onto the nation's front pages. Traditional news organizations no longer have the exclusive province to decide what information enters the public arena."

This article was written in 1998, remember.

Yes, that totally supports your assertion that if it appeared on the internet and not on TV in 1998, it was totally obscure and buried forever. Or didn't you ever wonder how Drudge and his tiny, tiny internet readership was able to "explode a major story onto the nation's front pages"? Perhaps because the internet and news items published on said medium were more influential and more widely read than you claim?

I hate to break this to you but I was only trying to prove, using mainstream sources, that senate investigations of this matter exist and they put out reports. I asked you earlier to show us how to acquire those report using your vast mainstream links on the internet. Still waiting. Or are you prepared to admit that just because something isn't published by a mainstream source on the internet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist? :D

Again, what report are you talking about? You're playing some weird childish game akin to telling me to get you a specific book from the library, and when I say "Okay, what book do you want?", you crow about how I am unable to find it.

Tell me who authored the report and when it was released, and I'll find it for you.
 
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I'm pretty sure he's not. In the Ron Brown thread he made it pretty clear that he didn't think it was possible for someone to dislike Clinton and also disagree with the conspiracy theories. They were obviously all just lying about disliking Clinton.

He'll accuse you of the same, no doubt.
Let me give BAC ammunition then. I've defended both Clinton's when I thought they deserved defending which has been a lot. Many of the attacks made have been downright silly and counterproductive for America. The fact is that I have very fond memories of my life during the Clinton administration. Whether he had any hand in it or not my life was very good then and most people I know where doing pretty damn well. But being intellectually honest and liking someone are two very different things. I've plenty of history disparaging Bill and Hillary.

BTW: Your post brings to mind my time at the 9/11 truth forums where anyone who didn't buy into the conspiracy was a government shill. Which was laughable given that so many of those who were taking on the 9/11 CT were rather hardcore in their condemnation of the Bush administration.

Rather odd shills. If I had to venture a guess I'm likely to end up one of those odd shills.
 
Bring it on. If the evidence and your argument is compelling I can tell you right now that I will gladly join you in your lone fight. I mean that with all sincerity. I'm not here to be popular and I've taken unpopular positions in the past.

RandFan, I'm back. If you're still interested ...

I'm going to start with ChinaGate and the Campaign Finance scandals.

I assert the activities of the Clintons in these two scandals show that the Clintons have qualities we shouldn't want in a Secretary of State or her co-Secretary (Bill). I think they demonstrate a willingness on their part to sell access to restricted US technology and secrets in exchange for campaign contributions (if not bribes). And they show a willingness to violate US law where foreigners are concerned. And a willingness to coverup wrong doing by themselves and those around them.

And what is my proof for this assertion?

Well let's start with the Cox Committee, a bipartison group consisting of 5 Republicans and 4 Democrats, that published a 700 page report called the Cox Report. The committee's conclusions were unanimous ... that US national security vis a vis Communist China was gravely harmed by the actions and inaction of the Clinton administration. They concluded that China literally got away with America's crown jewels, for example, computer codes containing data on 50 years of US nuclear weapons development and a 1000 nuclear tests, nuclear warhead simulation technology, advanced electromagnetic weapons technology, missile nose cone technology, missile guidance technology, space-based radar technology and other classified information which the Clinton Administration (not the Cox committee) determined could not be made public. All of which were stolen or given away during the Clinton watch ... not before it ... not after it ... during it.

Surely you will agree this is a serious matter. In just a few years, China’s nuclear technology jumped from 1960s quality to being a peer competitor of the US.

Now President Clinton's response at the time was to try and cover up this theft, not investigate it. His response was to punish those who blew the whistle on this, not praise them. His response was to hinder investigations rather than encourage them. His response was to invite "friends" with strong Chinese connections to White House fundraisers. His response was to use people like John Huang, Charlie Trie, Johnny Chung and James Riady, all of whom had strong ties to the Chinese government and military, to raise millions of dollars in illegal campaign money ... from China. His response was to sign waivers that allowed certain companies who gave large campaign contributions to transfer what was, up until that time, restricted technology to Communist China.

Why don't more people know about this scandal? Or care? Because the DOJ helped cover it up. And more important, because the Clinton friendly media helped cover it up or make it seem unimportant. The night the summary of the Cox Report was released, ABC, NBC and CBS devoted just seconds to it. The night the full report was released, ABC, NBC and CBS did a total of 5 stories on it and only ABC led with it. That compares with their treatment of the Iran Contra committee, the night it's report was released ... when all three networks led with the story and EACH did five segments on it ... devoting over half their broadcast time to its significance. You might almost think the networks didn't consider Chinagate important.

The morning after the report was released, ABC spent a total of 3 minutes discussing the Cox Report (compared to over 8 minutes discussing the dangers of professional wrestling). CBS spent 7 minutes on the topic. CBS also spent 7 minutes interviewing a high school principal about security measures against school shootings and 5 minutes talking with William Shatner about his new Star Trek book. NBC's coverage was less than 5 minutes, even though they called it "a huge and devastating spy scandal". NBC spent 11 minutes discussing a wrestling accident. In comparison, these networks spent most of their morning programming on Iran Contra the morning after that committee released its report. You might almost think the networks didn't consider Chinagate important.

And the evening news the day after the report release? Whereas Iran Contra was still the focus of mainstream news programs and would be for weeks after the report was released, NBC said nothing more about the Cox Report. ABC did one story ... about how suspected Chinese spy Wen Ho Lee would never be prosecuted. And CBS had Eric Engberg call the Cox Report findings too incomplete to be taken seriously. And that was basically the end of mainstream news coverage of this "huge and devastating spy scandal" ... one that was to have sweeping national security consequences which we are still trying to resolve. You might conclude the mainstream media didn't think it important.

But I think the real story is they were protecting Clinton and the democrat party. In contrast to the Iran Contra Scandal where they spent weeks and weeks blaming Reagan and Republicans, with little actual hard evidence of wrong doing, their approach in Chinagate, with its mountains of evidence, was to immediately ignore or dismiss the findings and spread the blame ... to Republican administrations, of course.

Let me give you an example to prove what I mean.

Do you know there is an FBI transcript of a call to Johnny Chung from Chinese operative Robert Luu in which Luu credits the source of Clinton and DNC campaign contributions to the "princelings" ... that is, the children of People’s Liberation Army officers in front companies. He said in the call, "Chairman Jiang agreed to handle it like this. The President over here also agreed." Well it happens that Clinton and Jiang were meeting when the call took place. And did any of the mainstream networks report this FBI monitored conversation and give it's implications ANY coverage whatsoever? No. They gave it absolutely zero attention. RandFan, you can't convince me that if they'd had similar proof that Reagan conspired with the Ayatollah on spinning the Iran Contra scandal, they wouldn't have spent hours and hours of air time discussing the matter. This was mainstream media bias pure and simple, and the reason you and most others seem to know so little about what actually happened during the Clinton administration.

You want another example? The day after the Cox Report was released, reporter Carl Cameron revealed that "FBI counter-intelligence sources" "told Fox News about two more previously undisclosed open investigations into Chinese nuclear espionage at the national labs during the Clinton administration. Sources say both the Argonne National Labs in Illinois and Idaho and the Sandia National Lab in New Mexico have been compromised and that both weapons secrets and detonation technology have been passed to China since 1993." Cameron then noted that 80 House members led by Republicans Cliff Stearns and J.D. Hayworth had demanded the resignations of National Security Adviser Sandy Berger and Attorney General Janet Reno over their handling of Chinagate. A major story, wouldn't you agree? Yet ABC, NBC and CBS gave it ZERO coverage. ZIP. NADA.

In fact, reading news reports at the time, you might begin to think Carl Cameron was the only real journalist out there. Again, just a few weeks after the Cox Report was released, he reported that "The President appointed his long-time friend and fundraiser Charlie Trie of Little Rock to a trade commission to deal with Hong Kong and other Asian nations. Trie has pleaded guilty to fundraising violations and is cooperating with investigators, but in 1997 FBI surveillance observed Trie’s employees destroying evidence in the campaign fundraising investigation. At the time, the Justice Department sent two officials to Little Rock to get search warrants and intervene. But on the eve of Senate hearings into campaign finance abuse, the Justice Department pulled back on the warrants and the search of Trie’s office and frustrated FBI agents watched as more documents were destroyed." Did ABC, NBC or CBS tell the public about this? No.

And I could go on giving you example after example of the media, the Clinton DOJ and various members of the Clinton administration helping to cover up what happened in Chinagate. So that YOU wouldn't know.

And the above was only part of the problem. During the Clinton years, China acquired a wide array of other US military-related technology and the Clinton Administration actively helped them do this. Such as making it possible for China to purchase hundreds of super computers. I wish to note in particular that Clinton, overruling the State and Defense departments, switched the authority for licensing satellites, computers and other high technology items from the State Department to the Commerce Department. As I've noted in Ron Brown threads here at JREF, this is important because Ron Brown's signature by itself then became the conduit for providing access to formally restricted technologies of all types. Is it just a coincidence that a "friend" of Charlie Trie met with Ron Brown after attending a "coffee" with Bill Clinton, the same day that Clinton signed a waiver allowing Loral to transfer missile and satellite related technology to China? Is it just coincidence that Bernard Schwartz, the CEO of Loral, was the single largest legal contributor to the DNC that year (giving over $500,000 ... $400,000 more than he'd given in any previous year)? Isn't it curious that Ron Brown died under clouded circumstances just as he was planning to turn state's evidence on this activity and other campaign finance related illegalities? It that rumor? No. There is sworn testimony from Brown confidants that we was about to do just that. Because he was facing a lifetime in jail had he been convicted of all the crimes he was about to be charged with by a special prosecutor.

Now what were the motives for the Clinton Administration acting the way it did ... disregarding U.S. national security is such a grievous fashion? The Cox report did not answer this but the answer should be obvious. Campaign cash. China gave the Clinton campaign and DNC campaign organizations millions and millions of illegal dollars during this period. Through multiple channels. This isn't rumor. This isn't supposition. This isn't wild allegation. This is established fact. Fact that came out because 27 people were prosecuted in the “Chinagate” scandal and 22 were convicted, including John Huang (who is now acknowledged to have been a Chinese agent), Johnny Chung, Yah Lin “Charlie” Trie and James Riady.

To grasp the seriousness and scope of Chinagate, consider that over a hundred people fled the country just to avoid questioning in the matter. Clinton even met with one of these people while traveling abroad during the time they were being sought by the FBI. Consider that despite efforts by the Reno DOJ to hinder investigations, 22 people were STILL convicted. That obstruction can be seen in the fact that a tiny organization called Judicial Watch learned more about Chinagate and Campaign Finance Gate than Reno's DOJ.

The Cox Report revealed that FBI surveillance caught Chinese officials trying to keep Johnny Chung from divulging any information that would damage Hughes Electronics. Johnny was one of the few to turn state's evidence (after Waxman, the top democrat on the committee, futilely tried to get him to plead the 5th). Among other things, Chung testified that in 1996 the head of China's military intelligence, General Gee Shengdi, gave him $300,000 for Clinton's campaign. He said he was told by the General that other people were also receiving money "to do good things for China". The FBI assigned dozens of agents to protect him (in fact, they arrested an armed man who tried to kill Chung at his office). And as mentioned earlier, Chung participated in a FBI wiretape that clearly suggests there was an agreement between Clinton and the Premier of China on how to coverup Chinagate.

All told, Chung gave the Clintons $366,000. which eventually they claimed they returned. Some of that money passed directly through Hillary's office and through her Chief of Staff's (Maggie William's) hands. Recall that Maggie was mentioned earlier in regards to obstructing the Foster investigation. After Chung presented Maggie with a check for $50,000 in illegal contributions (which was also illegal because the money was handed over inside the White House), Chung met with the first lady, whose first words to him were "Welcome to the White House, my good friend." Chung was such a "good friend" that he was in the Whitehouse on 57 different occasions. So I ask you RandFan, how could Hillary not have known what was going on? Of course she knew.

And by the way, in 1997, after Chung's donations had been discovered and supposedly returned by the Clinton and DNC campaign committees, even as Loral was being investigated by a federal grand jury, guess who stepped in and donated the exact same amount ... $366,000 ... to the Clintons and DNC? The CEO of Loral, Bernard Schwartz. It really doesn't take a PhD to figure this out, RandFan.

And what about some of the other "friends" of the Clintons involved in Chinagate?

Like Charlie Trie. He ran the Fu Lin restaurant in Little Rock, a favorite hangout of the Clintons during Bill's time as Arkansas governor. But he also owned Daihatsu International Trading, which had satellite offices in Washington and Beijing. Over the years, Trie donated about $220,000 to the DNC and another $460,000 to Bill's Legal Defense Fund. Trie visited the White House more than 23 times ... perhaps as many as 37 times. He received an appointment to the Commission on U.S.-Pacific Trade and Investment Policy, an act which required an executive order by Clinton to expand the commission's size.

Trie participated in trade missions to China and admitted to illegally funneling foreign money to the democrats. (Note there is sworn testimony that Hillary was the mastermind behind the selling of trade mission seats in exchange for campaign cash.) Is it a coincidence that Trie arranged a White House fundraising "coffee" for Wang Jun, head of China's most powerful arms export company, just four days after the administration granted Wan Jun's company import permits to ship weapons and ammunition to a Detroit company with ties to China's PLA? In September of 1995, Hillary Clinton attended a "women's conference" in Beijing. Wang Jan claims Hillary Clinton invited him to a meeting while she was there.

Note that Charlie Trie fled the country when his involvement in Chinagate became known. He eventually returned and in 1999 pled guilty to violating federal campaign finance laws by making political contributions in someone else's name and causing a false statement to be made to the Federal Election Commission. In return, he received assurances that he would serve no prison time. We have photos of him standing next to the Clintons in the White House. In fact, at a February 1995 DNC dinner held in honor of fundraisers, Trie sat at the First Lady's table. But just a year later, Hillary, when pressed to recall her involvement with Trie, according to a Senate committee report, did not recognize his name. You don't have to be a PhD to know what was going on, RandFan. You just have to be a skeptic. :D

Now Charlie Trie was a member of the Four Seas Triad, a crime syndicate with ties to Red China's military and intelligence communities. Another member of that Triad was the owner of a hotel in Southern Mainland China. His name is Ng Lapseng. On six separate occasions from June 1994 to August 1996, he passed through customs in San Francisco declaring suitcases full of cash ... in the cumulative amount of $333,000. What a coincidence that two days after Ng entered the US in June 1994, he met at the White House with Mark Middleton, one of Clinton's top aides. After that meeting, Ng went to a DNC dinner with Bill and Hillary. He was seated at their table and gave the Clintons $175,000 in cash. In July of 1994, he returned to the United States and two days later again met with Mark Middleton at the White House. After words, he attended birthday party hosted by the DNC for President Clinton. At the party he gave Clinton $42,000 in cash. Neither of these contributions was ever reported to the Federal Election Commission. What does that look like to you, RandFan?

Ng Lapseng visited the White House 12 times and he was often in the company of Charlie Trie. In fact, Trie received as much as $1.4 million in wire transfers from Ng, which became Trie’s main source of income. Some of the money given to Trie clearly ended up in Clinton and DNC coffers, too. And by the way, in addition to having ties to China's communist government, Ng Lapseng also ran a prostitution ring that trafficked in women. Yet, Hillary had no problem having her picture taken with him in front of the DNC symbol (http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/NgLapSeng.jpg ). :D

Mark Middleton, according to Johnny Chung, was one of those identified by General Gee Shengdi as receiving money ... $500,000 dollars. Middleton took the 5th when questioned about this and the Reno DOJ let him skate. He was the highest Clinton Administration official to plead the 5th in Chinagate. In 1999, the Washington Times reported that "Mr. Middleton, a longtime Clinton confidant who raised more than $4 million during the 1992 election, was called to appear before the House Government Reform Committee". In his opening statement, Chairman Dan Burton of the Committee on Government Reform noted that "We checked Mark Middleton's bank records. They show that he received over $1.75 million from Asian businesses." According to committee documents, Middleton received at least $275,000 in retainer fees for unspecified work from July 1995 to April 1997. The money came from the Riady family. In 2001, Burton still wanted to review the Janet Reno DOJ documents explaining why she chose to not prosecute Middleton. President Bush invoked executive privilege to prevent that. You really have to wonder what's going on inside our government and inside our two major political parties. And now inside Obama's administration.

James and Mochtar Riady, Indonesian billionaires and ex-employers of John Huang, were longtime friends and financial supporters of Clinton. James Riady donated more than $475,000 to the Democratic National Committee, the Clinton Inaugural Fund and various Democratic candidates. Moctar's gardener managed to contribute $450,000 directly to Bill Clinton in a single check. James Riady visited the White House over a dozen times. His visits were scheduled through Mark Middleton. Authorities said the Riadys had a long relationship with Chinese intelligence. Clinton, while out of the country, met privately with them ... at a time when they were avoiding US authorities that sought to question them. Clinton tried to arrange a "Justice" Department deal for James Riady, Mochtar's son, to protect him from prosecution but it didn't go through before Bush took over. Nevertheless, Riady still got a "deal" from Bush.

Riady also was close to Webster Hubbell, who was one of Hillary Clinton's fellow partners at the Rose Law Firm back in Little Rock. Hubbell eventually pleaded guilty to mail fraud and tax evasion. Hubbell's phone logs included a large number of calls from James Riady. After Hubbell promised to cooperate with Starr, the Lippo Group made payments to him for "consulting" work totaling between $100,000 and $250,000. Oh what a web they wove.

John Huang was an important figure in both scandals. He left Lippo with $780,000 in severance pay (plus a new Mercedes) to work for Commerce side by side with Ron Brown (yes, that name again). Phone records show he had made at least 261 calls from his Commerce office to Lippo Group headquarters in Indonesia. And he made others from the Washington offices of Stephens, Inc., an investment firm that Clinton's 1992 presidential run. A former Stephens secretary testified before the Senate that Huang often left his office with classified files without bringing all of them back. Additionally, he made multiple visits and telephone calls to the Chinese embassy. Yet when all this came out, the Clinton DOJ under Reno never even deposed him.

That task was left to little ol' Judicial Watch. And in those depositions, John Huang invoked the 5th Amendment over 2000 times. Did the mainstream media notice? Did the Clinton DOJ get curious about what Huang was hiding? No. Even though John Huang was labeled a "Chinese agent" by people in the CIA, FBI and Congress, he was still given a Top Secret clearance by the Clinton White House without a background check. Did the mainstream media notice? Did the Clinton DOJ investigate? No. Even after he was given a grant of immunity in the Judicial Watch case to force him to testify ... he still invoked the 5th! And still the DOJ showed no interest in questioning him. That should make you wonder. And the connection to Hillary? Nolanda Hill told ABC News it was Hillary, not Brown, who pushed for Huang's recruitment into Commerce. And by the way, where did Huang go after he left Commerce in December 1995? He became the DNC's vice chairman of finance ... raising over 3 million dollars from Chinese connected companies ... like Wang Jun's Poly Technologies.

By the way, John Huang pled guilty in 1999 ... to an unrelated federal charge that during 1992-94, before taking his Commerce Department job, he'd made an illegal $2,500 contribution to the unsuccessful 1993 Los Angeles mayoral campaign of Michael Woo and a $5,000 contribution to a Democratic fundraising operation, the California Victory Fund. In return, he was granted immunity from prosecution for his Clinton fundraising activity. The Clinton's were good at covering their tracks. And the mainstream media went right along with the coverup.

Ira Sockowitz also worked for Commerce and knew John Huang. In May 1996, he moved to the Small Business Administration (SBA). Three days later, Commerce approved a SCI clearance (above Top Secret) for him. Sockowitz then visited Commerce and removed 136 secret documents (many of them dealing with China). He told his old secretary that he was gathering personal items. Commerce said he violated his clearance by not returning the files. He claimed he needed them for his SBA job, but the SBA disputed that claim. Sockowitz left the SBA in November of 1996 under a cloud and the Justice Department immediately stopped investigating ... without ever interviewing Sockowitz or his boss. See what I mean about the DOJ not wanting to investigate matters related to Chinagate? And isn't it a coincidence that Ira Sockowitz was the point man at the Ron Brown crash site.

John Podesta, Clinton's White House Chief of Staff from 1998 to 2001, was also in the thick of things. In 1998, the House National Security Committee asked the Undersecretary of Commerce William Reinsch to produce the 1995 satellite waiver memos he'd written on the Loral waiver, mentioned earlier. These memos were among the documents found in Sockowitz's safe at SBA. Reinsch promised during the hearing that he would produce them, but never did. Reinsch was also asked to turn over all documentation on secret meetings and classified briefings given to the Computer Systems Policy Project (CSPP). CSPP members Tandem, Digital, Compaq, Unisys, AT&T and Cray Super computers were all invited to travel with Ron Brown on his trade trip to Beijing. Now the CSSP had ties to Podesta. Starting in 1994, the CSPP was represented by the brother of John Podesta. And John was at the time in charge of Clinton administration oversight of super-computer and encryption policy. How convenient. One document found in Brown's files (through the FOIA) after he died is a briefing memo prepared for Ron Brown by William Reinsch that notes the CSPP was interested in "computer" and "encryption" exports. The CSPP executive director in 1994 and 1995 was Ken Kay, who was an employee of Podesta Associates. In fact, the official CSPP reports issued in January 1995, also found in Brown's files, note that Podesta Associates was running the CSPP lobby effort. Mr Kay and the CSPP lawyer, Charles Levy, donated thousands of dollars to DNC candidates according to Federal Election Commission records. Talk about a conflict of interest. Note that Ken Kay, the CSPP and the Podesta brothers all denied any wrongdoing. However, in 1997, John Podesta found it necessary to obtain a presidential waiver from Clinton to resolve the potential legal conflict of interest.

Even under the Bush administration, the coverup continues. I mentioned that James Riady got a deal from Bush? That's right. He got a slap on the wrist in exchange for a plea bargain where he agreed to tell the truth in all matters. In a California courtroom, during his sentencing, he stated for the record that his millions in illegal contributions were never returned even though the DNC and Clinton had publically claimed they were. When the judge asked the prosecutor if this was true, the prosecutor said "yes, to the best of our knowledge". Was this reported in the mainstream media? No. In fact, we've never heard another word about it. You really have to wonder what is really going on inside our government these days. :mad:

The only good thing I can think of is that under the Bush administration, Loral Space and Communications Corporation and Hughes Electronics Corporation, named in the Cox Report, were both successfully prosecuted for violating US export control laws, resulting in the two largest fines in the history of the Arms Export Control Act. However, those fines were slaps on the wrist compared to the damage they actually did to national security.

After the Cox Report came out, an FBI agent named Charles LaBella spent months looking into the connections between campaign contributions, foreign influences and administration actions. He met resistance. FBI agent Ivian C. Smith wrote a letter to Freeh, dated August 4, 1997, expressing "a lack of confidence" in the Justice Department's willingness to conduct a thorough investigation. Smith and three other career agents testified before the Senate that the Justice Department had impeded their inquiry. FBI agent Daniel Wehr stated that lead U.S. Attorney Laura Ingersoll told the agents they should "not pursue any matter related to solicitation of funds for access to the president."

Never the less, what LaBelle found was published in a 100 page memo he prepared for Attorney General Janet Reno ... the infamous La Bella Memo. La Bella said to Reno: " [A] pattern [of events] suggests a level of knowledge within the White House -- including the President's and First Lady's offices -- concerning the injection of foreign funds into the reelection effort." The memo argued that an independent counsel should be appointed to carry on the investigation. But Janet Reno, who was clearly controlled by the Clintons, rejected that recommendation and also refused to release the memo to the public or Congress. She rejected the recommendation despite the fact that FBI-Director Freeh testified that the public knows only about one per cent of what the FBI knows about the Chinagate scandal. I think she rejected it because of that fact. So the American public would never learn the other 99% of this tale. In any case, what we do know is already enough to know that Clinton committed what many would call treason. What do you think, RandFan?

Tell me, have you ever heard of Presidential Decision Directive 24? It's the directive approved by Clinton in 1994, that Jamie Gorelick (you know who she is, right?) used to erect the "Chinese Walls" that everyone complained about after 9/11 as being partially responsible for 9/11. As a result of PDD24, intelligence information could not be shared between agencies but had to travel up a chain of command established by Clinton and Gorelick through the Justice Department, which Clinton controlled via Reno. I say it is no coincidence that PDD24 was signed just as the FBI and the CIA were both turning up evidence related to fundraisers and the Chinese. It prevented them from comparing notes.

PDD24 allowed the Clinton administration to effectively trap any information that was deemed harmful to it and the Democratic Party. As a result of PDD24, Congress and the CIA did not learn until 1997, after the 1996 election, that the FBI had collected extensive evidence in 1995 linking illegal democratic Party donations to China. According to leaked classified CIA documents, between 1994 and 1997, the CIA learned that China made massive tranfers of missile, nuclear and air defense technology to Iran and Pakistan. Technology acquired from the US thanks to the Clinton administration's policies. But PDD24 prevented the CIA from telling the FBI about it. Meanwhile the White House fundraisers continued.

In 1994, the McDonnell Douglas Corporation transferred military-use machine tools to the China despite Defense Department objections. Is it coincidence that McDonnell Douglas was a client of the law firm where Gorelick worked for 17 years? In 1995, General Electric, another former client of Gorelick’s, assisted China's nuclear program. In 1995, the CEO of Hughes Electronics, another client of Gorelick's old firm, got satellite export controls switched from the State Department to the Commerce Department then gave sensitive data and equipment to the Chinese, which a later Pentagon study would conclude allowed China to develop intercontinental and submarine-launched ballistic missiles.

And I could go on and on and on with examples like this ... be it the transfer of advanced, encrypted, fiber-optic communications systems, ... or global positioning systems, .... or upgrading the PLA's military air defenses. Across the board, the Clintons committed treason by making such technologies accessable to a communist regime who's head of defense was at the time openly saying war that with the US was inevitable. I'm really curious to hear what you would call it, RandFan, if that wasn't treason?

In early July 1995, the CIA briefed Leon Panetta, Clinton’s Chief of Staff, and National security advisors Anthony Lake and Sandy Berger (yes, Mr. secret documents in the pants Berger) about China's nuclear espionage. And all three claimed that they neglected to tell Clinton. Do you really believe that claim, RandFan? Before answering, consider the fact that President Clinton and Hillary visited CIA headquarters together in July 1995. According to a CIA press release, the president received intelligence briefings from CIA Director Deutch. Do you really believe Clinton wasn't told about the leaks? Note that Deutch was pardoned by Clinton in 2001 ... for mishandling classified documents.

When Wen Ho Lee became the prime espionage suspect at Los Alamos National Lab and the FBI requested the DOJ authorize a wire tap of him, Janet Reno refused ... even though ALL other 2686 requests between 1993 and 1997 had been granted. Reno cited civil liberty concerns. Do you really believe that excuse, RandFan? Or was Reno obstructing an investigation into Chinagate?

And even as Lee became the focus of the FBI and DOE counterintelligence agents, he was put in charge of a nuclear program requiring an even higher security clearance ... and he hired a Chinese national to be his assistant (who soon disappeared). After Lee was finally fired, Clinton was asked about espionage at the lab. He said, “I can tell you that no one has reported to me that they suspect that such a thing has occurred.” Do you honestly believe such lies, RandFan?

Clinton was indeed told about the Chinese espionage. First, Sandy Berger admitted that he briefed Clinton in 1998. Later Sandy had to amend his statement and admitted that he had briefed Clinton in 1997. Still later Berger was forced to admit that he had briefed Clinton in 1996. You don't have to have a PhD to know what was going on here, RandFan. They were all covering for Clinton. Clinton denied knowledge of Chinese espionage because at the very same time he was authorizing technology transfers to the Chinese in exchange for millions in campaign cash. And Hillary was helping him do this.

And the Chinese were very grateful. As Bill left office, Lippo (a company that was involved in the illegal contributions) offered him a position on its board of directors. As he left office, a Chinese garment company offered Bill millions to be its “image ambassador.” Between 2001 and 2005, Bill received over $4.5 million in speaking fees related to China. And the money keeps pouring in. Not just from China, but from foreign interests all over the world. Even his brother Roger was rewarded. Congressional investigators found $200,000 of Chinese money in a bank account controlled by Roger Clinton. And don't forget Norman Hsu. With all of this information out there and readily available to anyone who takes the time to look (and I've only covered a small portion of the incriminating facts), how can ANYONE think the Clintons are not corrupt? How can ANYONE think they are not a threat to national security? How can ANYONE think them honest? How can ANYONE think making Hillary Clinton Secretary of State would be a good idea? Knowing the above, wouldn't you agree with me, RandFan, that making Hillary Secretary of State would be utterly foolish on Obama's part?
 

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