Why did the 9-11 Truth Movement fail?

Removed Moderated Thread status, that does not mean you can start to breach your Membership Agreement.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
jaydeehess said:
Those are the parts that JJ believes should be 'reconstructed', actually re-assembled in the same fashion that some aircraft that crash have been.

One wonders just how that could be accomplished.
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I thought aircraft (for example TWA800) are re-assembled as to find the cause of the accident and to try to trace back where the break-up started and how it developed into a catastrophic failure?

Why would the WTC be reconstructed? Besides that the idea is not feasable and stupid to start with, it is known what the initiation for the collapse was and what caused the complete destruction of the towers.
 
Bell said:
Why would the WTC be reconstructed? Besides that the idea is not feasable and stupid to start with, it is known what the initiation for the collapse was and what caused the complete destruction of the towers.
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Neither of these things are "known". We have some best guesses based on computer simulations.

If the idea of reconstruction is "stupid" why were there very strong objections, at the time, from within the fire engineering industry, protesting the removal and destruction of vital evidence?


jaydeehess said:
No it isn't, it can mean to construct a building using the same techniques and type of materials used in the original construction, OR as you would have it, to reassemble the parts of the now broken structure.
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I see your confusion.




Odd that you would rail on against NIST and not have bothered to read it. They cover the markings on the structural members and the fact that many were unidentifiable.
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The only reason I have read from NIST as to why they had to rely on computer simulations was because, by the time the NIST investigation started, nearly all the physical evidence had already been destroyed.

(Please provide evidence of my "railing".)



This has been covered many times in these pages. Try the sticky threads of this forum.
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I have never seen, on this forum or anywhere else, documentation of a physical study of steel for traces of explosives. I'd be interested to see some.

,,,, and?? What is the significance of that? seems like getting an answer from you on this is similar to the difficulty one might have in trying to nail jell-o to a wall.
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There is a correlation between skin color and political power in our racist world.

UNLoVedRebel said:
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There is no broadband service where I live and work. Please provide written documentation, if possible.
 
JihadJane said:
I have never seen, on this forum or anywhere else, documentation of a physical study of steel for traces of explosives. I'd be interested to see some.
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If it is so important then why do you not ask the relevant people for this documentation. We know that all the steel was inspected by forensic investigators, demolition contractors, site managers and public officials and that it was documented and a correct chain of custody followed.

If you want these documents you could go and ask for them. I can give you a name to start with.

JJ said:
There is a correlation between skin color and political power in our racist world.
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In yours perhaps. Are you from the UK?
 
JihadJane said:
Neither of these things are "known". We have some best guesses based on computer simulations..
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Actually there is photographic evidence proving NIST's theory about collapse initiation correct. Do you even know what the evidence and their theory is?
 
Alright you two.

I'll turn this donkey-powered rickshaw around!
 
Jihadjane at least you should be aware of the evidence you imply is inconclusive or faked.
 
JihadJane said:
Don't be coy!
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JihadJane Jell-o on a nail.

I believe that dtugg refers to, for instance, the photographic conformation of sagging floor trusses and outward bowing perimeter columns prior to collapse initiation.

, and now that I have said that I expect you will come back with the goal posts moved.

The video linked to above is one in which the engineers explain what they were doing with the material at the Freshkills site. This includes examples of the type of failures seen on the columns and trusses. Nary an explosively separated section in the bunch nor a big runny melted piece. No evidence of 'dustification' of the steel either, which rules out Judy Woods directed energy beam weapons. Just connection tear-outs and bent busted steel.

The only reason I have read from NIST as to why they had to rely on computer simulations was because, by the time the NIST investigation started, nearly all the physical evidence had already been destroyed.

(Please provide evidence of my "railing".)
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"they had to rely on computer simulations" over and over and over again despite being told why and despite being told that the idea of re-assembly of the broken parts would be difficult since not all pieces could be positively identified as to their origin in the building , and because this would be wholly impracticle for such very large, very heavy, very bent items , and since one could not determine if some of the damage occured during collapse or as any specific piece fell down through the high speed rock tumbler and impact with the earth.


There is a correlation between skin color and political power in our racist world.
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I repeat, ",,, and?? What is the significance of that? seems like getting an answer from you on this is similar to the difficulty one might have in trying to nail jell-o to a wall."

Specifically, how does the fact that political power on this planet resides primarily in countries that are predominantly populated by desendants of the Europeans (economic power is much less concentrated there since one must include several Asian countries) relate to the idea that the attacks of 911 are not what is proposed in the so called official narritive?

Others in the Truth Movement, which you say you eschew, have stated that Arabs hiding in caves could not accomplish these attacks. That is an obviously racist POV and when I brought it up you chaffed at the idea that I was suggesting that you shared the sentiment. I have now asked a few times just what you feel is the significance of the skin colour of the hijackers and in general that of the Islamic believers. All you seem to be capable of doing is re-iterating the obvious, that they are brown and most westerners are white as if that alone says it all. (perhaps cue the spooky music and the whispered voice "think about it")
 
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JJ I know you just look to turn a phrase with each new comment rather than learn something. But I, like several others here, get suckered by those who pretend they're are interested in learning. So, I'll post this pic just this one time for you, hoping you may actually look at it and consider reading the NIST report rather than dismissing it. If you're just looking to get the last word, go ahead, I'll yield it to you. If you have any legitimate questions, we'll do our best to answer them for you so we can deepen your understanding about the events of 9/11.

ST1-full.jpg
.
 
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UNLoVedRebel said:
JJ I know you just look to turn a phrase with each new comment rather than learn something. But I, like several others here, get suckered by those who pretend they're are interested in learning. So, I'll post this pic just this one time for you, hoping you may actually look at it and consider reading the NIST report rather than dismissing it. If you're just looking to get the last word, go ahead, I'll yield it to you. If you have any legitimate questions, we'll do our best to answer them for you so we can deepen your understanding about the events of 9/11.

http://911stories.googlepages.com/ST1.jpg/ST1-full.jpg.
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These pictures prove that my original theory about the collapse of the towers is indeed correct.

The Jew Physicists from Caltech created a miniature black hole inside each tower. This black hole pulled in the outer beams..thereby forcing the collapse.

:D
 
JihadJane said:
I have never seen, on this forum or anywhere else, documentation of a physical study of steel for traces of explosives. I'd be interested to see some.
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Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!

That is what everyone would have heard and every sound recording device captured if explosives had been used. No series of "bangs" were heard therefore there CANNOT possibly be any use of explosives, so there is no point in testing for them. There are plenty of videos on this site showing that when buildings are demolished using explosives that there is a series of bangs usually correlating with light flashes. This did not happen on 9/11 ergo no explosives.

You might as well say, "I have never seen, on this forum or anywhere else, documentation of a physical study of steel for traces of explosives custard. I'd be interested to see some."
 
jaydeehess said:
JihadJane Jell-o on a nail.

I believe that dtugg refers to, for instance, the photographic conformation of sagging floor trusses and outward bowing perimeter columns prior to collapse initiation.
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How does this "prove" NIST's theory?

, and now that I have said that I expect you will come back with the goal posts moved.
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Goal posts still in original position!

The video linked to above is one in which the engineers explain what they were doing with the material at the Freshkills site. This includes examples of the type of failures seen on the columns and trusses. Nary an explosively separated section in the bunch nor a big runny melted piece. No evidence of 'dustification' of the steel either, which rules out Judy Woods directed energy beam weapons. Just connection tear-outs and bent busted steel.
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It sounds like it covers the same ground as Appendix D of the FEMA report:

PDF:

http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_apndxD.pdf

NOT PDF:

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/WTC_apndxD.htm

If so, it would seem unlikely to contain documentary evidence of an investigation of steel with explosives in mind, as you claim it does, if I understood your words correctly:

jaydeehess said:
THAT was done, there WERE NONE!
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The video, I am guessing, is more likley to be evidence of a totally under-resourced, too-little-too -late effort by valiant volunteers working on the fringes of a huge clean-up and disposal operation that was focussed on disposal and recycling not investigation. Indeed even some of the few pieces that the volunteer investigators put to one side for further study “were accidentally processed in salvage yard operations” (FEMA Appx D). Large quantities of steel had already been recycled before the volunteers' belated visits to salvage yards began.


jaydeehess said:
"they had to rely on computer simulations" over and over and over again despite being told why and despite being told that the idea of re-assembly of the broken parts would be difficult since not all pieces could be positively identified as to their origin in the building , and because this would be wholly impracticle for such very large, very heavy, very bent items , and since one could not determine if some of the damage occured during collapse or as any specific piece fell down through the high speed rock tumbler and impact with the earth.
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I think you are being a little over-dramatic. Much of the buildings' bulk fell outside the “high speed rock tumbler”.


From a statement of Dr. William Jeffrey, director, National Institute of Standards and Technology [My bold]:



- ”The scarcity of physical evidence that is typically available in place for reconstruction of a disaster led to the following approach:

Accumulation of copious photographic and video material. With the assistance of the media, public agencies and individual photographers, NIST acquired and organized nearly 7,000 segments of video footage, totaling in excess of 150 hours and nearly 7,000 photographs representing at least 185 photographers. This guided the Investigation Team's efforts to determine the condition of the buildings following the aircraft impact, the evolution of the fires, and the subsequent deterioration of the structure.”



The investigation of the World Trade
Center collapse: findings,
recommendations, and next steps, 2006, Page 59

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy24133.000/hsy24133_0f.htm

Are you claiming that the "scarcity of physical evidence" Dr.Jeffrey refers to, above, was because the evidence was too bent? Or was it because it no longer physically existed?



jaydeehess said:
I repeat, ",,, and?? What is the significance of that? seems like getting an answer from you on this is similar to the difficulty one might have in trying to nail jell-o to a wall."

Specifically, how does the fact that political power on this planet resides primarily in countries that are predominantly populated by desendants of the Europeans (economic power is much less concentrated there since one must include several Asian countries) relate to the idea that the attacks of 911 are not what is proposed in the so called official narritive?
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It doesn't. It is just something to ponder.



Others in the Truth Movement, which you say you eschew, ...
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I have never said this. I have said exactly the opposite.

...have stated that Arabs hiding in caves could not accomplish these attacks. That is an obviously racist POV and when I brought it up you chaffed at the idea that I was suggesting that you shared the sentiment.
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Where’s the chaffing?

I said:

JihadJane said:
Why does highlighting the skin color dynamic of the "War on Terror" upset you?

I wasn't making a "cave dwellers" argument.
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And, when you said:

“You were implying that 'brown' people could not have accomplished the feat of hijacking several aircraft and using them as suicide weapons,”

I said:

JihadJane said:
No, I wasn't.
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jaydeehess said:
I have now asked a few times just what you feel is the significance of the skin colour of the hijackers and in general that of the Islamic believers. All you seem to be capable of doing is re-iterating the obvious, that they are brown and most westerners are white as if that alone says it all. (perhaps cue the spooky music and the whispered voice "think about it")
Click to expand...

The "War on Terror" fraud is empowered by the racist subtext which is central to the meaning imposed on the attacks: "We are under attack by an Enemy Other. They are less human and rational than us. To defeat this evil, irrational threat needs war!"
 
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JihadJane said:
<snip>
The "War on Terror" truth movement fraud is empowered by the racist paranoid/political subtext which is central to the meaning imposed on the attacks: "We are under attack by an Enemy Other. They are less human and rational than us. To defeat this evil, irrational threat needs war and lots of YouTube videos!"
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Fixed that for you.
 
GStan said:
Originally Posted by JihadJane
<snip>
The "War on Terror" truth movement fraud is empowered by the racist paranoid/political subtext which is central to the meaning imposed on the attacks: "We are under attack by an Enemy Other. They are less human and rational than us. To defeat this evil, irrational threat needs war and lots of YouTube videos!"
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GStan said:
Fixed that for you.
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You could leave that "racist" part in there, or at least change it to "anti-semitic". Who do you think got the ball rolling?
 
JihadJane said:
If so, it would seem unlikely to contain documentary evidence of an investigation of steel with explosives in mind, as you claim it does, if I understood your words correctly:



The video, I am guessing, is more likley to be evidence of a totally under-resourced, too-little-too -late effort by valiant volunteers working on the fringes of a huge clean-up and disposal operation that was focussed on disposal and recycling not investigation. Indeed even some of the few pieces that the volunteer investigators put to one side for further study “were accidentally processed in salvage yard operations” (FEMA Appx D). Large quantities of steel had already been recycled before the volunteers' belated visits to salvage yards began.
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I have already pointed out to you this is a lie and I have evidence to prove this. I offered you the oppurtunity to be given names of people you could have contacted and asked about it. You ignored the post. You are not interrested in the truth you just want to continue with your political bias.

Here is a document which explains the process by which the steel was processed and the fact it was documented, not hurried and chain of custody followed.

If you have a propblem with the claim you can contact the relevant people or you can come back here and say it is lies or that you were wrong.

Whats it going to be?

Page 8, assertion 6.

http://www.jod911.com/WTC%20COLLAPSE%20STUDY%20BBlanchard%208-8-06.pdf

JJ said:
The "War on Terror" fraud is empowered by the racist subtext which is central to the meaning imposed on the attacks: "We are under attack by an Enemy Other. They are less human and rational than us. To defeat this evil, irrational threat needs war!"
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Good job the UK govt agrees with you and has stopped using that term eh?
 
I still think you should stick to political diatribes, JihadJane, and lay off the scientific discussion of the event. You're way out of your league. So am I of course, but at least I admit it.
 
JihadJane said:
The video, I am guessing, is more likley to be evidence of a totally under-resourced, too-little-too -late effort by valiant volunteers working on the fringes of a huge clean-up and disposal operation that was focussed on disposal and recycling not investigation.
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You guessed wrong.
 
JihadJane said:
Originally Posted by jaydeehess
"they had to rely on computer simulations" over and over and over again despite being told why and despite being told that the idea of re-assembly of the broken parts would be difficult since not all pieces could be positively identified as to their origin in the building , and because this would be wholly impracticle for such very large, very heavy, very bent items , and since one could not determine if some of the damage occured during collapse or as any specific piece fell down through the high speed rock tumbler and impact with the earth.
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I think you are being a little over-dramatic. Much of the buildings' bulk fell outside the “high speed rock tumbler”.
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AFAIK none of the core columns fell outside. You did want information on the core of the building, right? I also believe that most of the floor trusses remained within the 'footprint' of the buildings except for those that might have been contained in the large chunk of (IIRC) the south tower which fell to one side. Those would have been crushed upon impact with the earth.

We do not need any investigation of perimeter columns for explosives since there would be scads of video evidence of such explosives. There were none!


From a statement of Dr. William Jeffrey, director, National Institute of Standards and Technology [My bold]:

- ”The scarcity of physical evidence that is typically available in place for reconstruction of a disaster led to the following approach:

Accumulation of copious photographic and video material. With the assistance of the media, public agencies and individual photographers, NIST acquired and organized nearly 7,000 segments of video footage, totaling in excess of 150 hours and nearly 7,000 photographs representing at least 185 photographers. This guided the Investigation Team's efforts to determine the condition of the buildings following the aircraft impact, the evolution of the fires, and the subsequent deterioration of the structure.”
The investigation of the World Trade
Center collapse: findings,
recommendations, and next steps, 2006, Page 59

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees...sy24133_0f.htm

Are you claiming that the "scarcity of physical evidence" Dr.Jeffrey refers to, above, was because the evidence was too bent? Or was it because it no longer physically existed?
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He is speaking to determining the conditions that existed prior to collapse.
I believe that Dr. Jeffrey was refering to the fact that the material form the impact floors was often unidentifiable and that in many cases it would be impossible to determine if specific damage was caused during initial collapse or in the subsequent fall or if heat damage was caused during the office fire or the underground fire.
If you cannot make these determinations you have no physical evidence to work with.



Originally Posted by jaydeehess
I repeat, ",,, and?? What is the significance of that? seems like getting an answer from you on this is similar to the difficulty one might have in trying to nail jell-o to a wall."

Specifically, how does the fact that political power on this planet resides primarily in countries that are predominantly populated by desendants of the Europeans (economic power is much less concentrated there since one must include several Asian countries) relate to the idea that the attacks of 911 are not what is proposed in the so called official narritive?
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It doesn't. It is just something to ponder.
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Um, this forum is titled "911 Conspiracies". If you wish to discuss the politics of race then there is another forum for that


Quote:
Others in the Truth Movement, which you say you eschew, ...
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I have never said this. I have said exactly the opposite.
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You were quite adamant that you are not part of the 911 Truth Movement , were you not?

Quote:
...have stated that Arabs hiding in caves could not accomplish these attacks. That is an obviously racist POV and when I brought it up you chaffed at the idea that I was suggesting that you shared the sentiment.
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Where’s the chaffing?

I said:


Originally Posted by JihadJane
Why does highlighting the skin color dynamic of the "War on Terror" upset you?

I wasn't making a "cave dwellers" argument.
Click to expand...
And, when you said:

“You were implying that 'brown' people could not have accomplished the feat of hijacking several aircraft and using them as suicide weapons,”
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Which you did not deny until;

Originally Posted by JihadJane
No, I wasn't.
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess

I have now asked a few times just what you feel is the significance of the skin colour of the hijackers and in general that of the Islamic believers. All you seem to be capable of doing is re-iterating the obvious, that they are brown and most westerners are white as if that alone says it all. (perhaps cue the spooky music and the whispered voice "think about it")
Click to expand...
The "War on Terror" fraud is empowered by the racist subtext which is central to the meaning imposed on the attacks: "We are under attack by an Enemy Other. They are less human and rational than us. To defeat this evil, irrational threat needs war!"
Click to expand...

The 911 attacks predate the specious "War on Terror". I did not ask about the "War on Terror". I asked how skin colour in any way has anything to do with determining that there were others, who's interests should be quite the opposite, that had anything to do with orchestrating the 911 attacks?
 
Quote:
Others in the Truth Movement, which you say you eschew, ...
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I have never said this. I have said exactly the opposite.
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The story so far.........

Originally Posted by JihadJane
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydeehess
So then are you saying that you discount the idea of MIHOP ...

As was said many times, had the TM stayed with what is now termed a LIHOP senario ...Instead political motivations caused some to bring forward all manner of purely idiotic ideas such as thermite, thermobaric weapons, nukes, energy beams, faked planes, faked FDR's, planted debris and DNA and thus your movement became an irrelevent fringe group that most who contemplate its tenets consider loony (for lack of a more consise word coming to mind).
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It's not my movement.
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Fine, then the loose collection of persons who identify themselves as being a part of the 911 Truth Movement. You do identify yourself with that loose grouping do you not?
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No I don't, I'm an unaffiliated skeptic.
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"Others in the Truth Movement" which you say you do not identify yourself with,,,,,,,,,,,,you just agree with them, or you don't , or what?
 
Sunstealer said:
No series of "bangs" were heard therefore there CANNOT possibly be any use of explosives, so there is no point in testing for them.
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Add to this the fact that such explosives, had they been used inside the building, would have produced shockwaves which would have shattered the windows and propelled outwards all manner of debris as shrapnel before the collapse started to happen. This is one of the reasons buildings being rigged for a controlled demolition are gutted before the charges are placed.
 
jaydeehess said:
Little time left on lunch so I'll make this quick.

It is consistent with NIST's senario and wholly inconsistent with any senario involving explosives.
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That is not proof of their theory.

NIST's theory was largely derived from data guessed at from photos etc so it would be very strange if their theory were inconsistent with them.

(I'll respond to your other posts later)

UNLoVedRebel said:
You guessed wrong.
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I watched the video yesterday. I guessed right.
 
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JihadJane said:
That is not proof of their theory.

NIST's theory was largely derived from data guessed at from photos etc so it would be very strange if their theory were inconsistent with them.
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In case you forgot

Page 8, assertion 6.
 
Jane, do you think that a metal wall which is bowing inwards significantly would be compromised? Or perhaps it would just stay like that forever? I am guessing whatever is necessary to continue the fantasy is your answer.

I wonder if there is some sort of reason why twoofers don't even try to refute NIST's theory about collapse initiation.
 
JihadJane said:
I watched the video yesterday. I guessed right.
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Uh, no you didn't.

JihadJane said:
The video, I am guessing, is more likley to be evidence of a totally under-resourced, too-little-too -late effort by valiant volunteers working on the fringes of a huge clean-up and disposal operation that was focussed on disposal and recycling not investigation.
Click to expand...

Since September the 11th, the official investigators have been combing the wreckage, looking for clues as to why the towers collapsed.
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[Cue the official investigators combing the wreckage, looking for clues as to why the towers collapsed.]
 
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess
Little time left on lunch so I'll make this quick.

It is consistent with NIST's senario and wholly inconsistent with any senario involving explosives.
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JihadJane said:
That is not proof of their theory.

NIST's theory was largely derived from data guessed at from photos etc so it would be very strange if their theory were inconsistent with them.
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You are either going through semantic and mental contortions to come up with that or it underlines once again your complete and utter non(or mis-) understanding of the technical aspects involved.
It is about as stupid a statement as your desire to have had thousands of tons of bent steel re-assembled somehow, somewhere to examine whether explosives were used to bring down buildings which were witnessed by hundreds at the scene to have been hit by large fast fuel laden aircraft.
 
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