Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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Mmmm, fresh hypocrisy!

I'll let you argue with the other Michael Mozina that posts here:
Not only are you clueless, your debate style is less than ethical. When did I claim that was an "experiment"? Oh wait, I never did. It must be your own strawman. I think the first thing they must teach in Lambda-Gumby class is how to inappropriately make up strawman arguments and how to irrational assign the term "crank" to any and all critics of your theory.

Do you guys have any real physics to present in this thread? Do you even understand what a real "experiment" is or what a "control mechanism" might be?
 
What "experiment"? You mean all the other particle physics experiments that showed all the other particles of the standard particle physics theory? That was a non response to my point. LHC is intended to provide you with empirical support of the last of key particles, the Higgs. There is no such experiment for inflation, nor any link between the Higgs and inflation other than in your mind.

Actually it was directly responsive to your point, the link between the phase transition of the Higgs condensate and inflation are part of the current model. Any data obtained about or involving the detection of the Higgs boson might help to confirm, modify or refute that model, which is why the “link between the Higgs and inflation” is not just in my head but in the math and supported by most of our current observation (controlled and uncontrolled).


You keep sidestepping the point. The search for the Higgs is here on Earth in "controlled experiments". The search for inflation faeries is always based on uncontrolled events in space.

Not at all you simply keep trying to introduce it, unsuccessfully, as a road block to advancements in cosmology. When you can show how we can control the universe for “controlled experiments” on cosmological scales then your augment might have some merit. Until then we are limited to those observations of “uncontrolled events in space” combined with what we can learn from the limited “controlled experiments” here on Earth. Unfortunately it is not only the scales involved, but it is also the fact that certain processes or conditions are only evident or become dominate on scales that are simply un-producible in current labs or in some cases any possible lab. So observation or collection and analysis of data becomes the dominate factor. Let’s not forget that “controlled experiments” are just observation or the data collection and analysis of some process that one tries to have a certain degree of control over. It is in fact only that data collection and analysis that allows us to confirm (to any degree of certainty) that we did in fact have the control of the processes that we intended to have. Controlled experiments do not ensure valid observational data; however the agreement of observational data with projected models can help demonstrate the validity of the intended control of the experiment.


As long as you keep sidestepping the difference between "controlled experimentation" and "interpretation of uncontrolled observation", we will continue to talk past one another. They are not the same thing and they never will be equivalent.

I have never sidestepped “the difference between "controlled experimentation" and "interpretation of uncontrolled observation"”. In running an Engineering Laboratory for over a decade I preformed thousands of test and experiments, some were given to controlled conditions while others simply were not. Some you would not want them to be, because it was the specific lack of control over the processes that was being observed and allows one to collect the data on influences and factors not yet considered in the controlled experiments. Your ascription of the “interpretation of uncontrolled observation” is disingenuous to say the least. The process being observed might not be under our control but the observations certainly must be, uncontrolled observations tell you nothing even about processes that you can control. Controlled observations of processes not under our control help us to define the parameters that do in fact control or influence those processes, especially the ones that we can not control or at scales we can not control. Often “controlled experimentation” only becomes possible based on the controlled observations of those processes when “uncontrolled” so we can establish the controlling parameters involved.
 
Hmm. A "relatively simple solution" that's so simple not one person has come up with a meaningful alternative explanation for in half a century.
Um, we haven't even had all that accurate measurements for half a century have we?

And you, Michael Mozina, who doesn't seem to understand what the CMBR even is

I have no idea what specific part of it that you personally find so damn appealing that you would throw away physics entirely and go with pure pseudoscience. Background radiation has been "predicted" long before BB theory became popular and it wasn't "predicted" to exist as a result of BB theory in the first place! Evidently you're willing to ignore all the other aspects of astronomy to focus on this one specific issue. That's what I don't understand.

(or for that matter what cosmology is)

This seems to be one of those things you guys do when you can't actually physically or empirically demonstrate your claim. You attack the messenger on unrelated and trivial issues in some hope of hiding the fact you can't demonstrate your claim. Somehow it must be all my fault. I'll remind you that Birkeland was the first one to "predict" a universe of "flying electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds". He "predicted" current flows in space, not simply interplanetary space, but the whole of space. At the time the "cosmology theories" claimed that the vacuum of space was pretty much empty and devoid of electrical current. Birkeland is in fact the originator of EU/PC theory. You might argue his solar model is "replaceable" under EU/PC theory, but he certainly was the first one to predict and simulate an electric universe theory. Admittedly the EU/PC theory is considered Alfven's work not Birkeland's work, but Birkeland started this process, and Alfven simply scaled it size, knowing by that time that the universe was much larger than Birkeland first realized.

is going to come up with a meaningful alternative explanation in the space of a few moments? Seriously?

When did I say "a few minutes"? I swear that if you guys didn't have the strawman thing down pat you'd be practically defenseless. I spend most of my time in these debates pointing out the strawmen in these arguments because none of you can actually demonstrate your claim, so you play word games and hope nobody notices you can't demonstrate your claim.
 
Actually it was directly responsive to your point, the link between the phase transition of the Higgs condensate and inflation are part of the current model.

You mean it's part of the current dogma that you cannot empirically demonstrate. It's a "claim" you folks make that none of you can demonstrate.

Any data obtained about or involving the detection of the Higgs boson might help to confirm, modify or refute that model,
Bull! You would have to show some physical link between a Higgs and inflation, and you forgot to ever do that. Paper claims don't count. I want to see real "physics".

which is why the “link between the Higgs and inflation” is not just in my head but in the math and supported by most of our current observation (controlled and uncontrolled).
It is "in your head" in the form of a mathematical formula that you cannot physically confirm! Gah. You guys can't even tell physics and empiricism from mathematical mythos.

Not at all you simply keep trying to introduce it, unsuccessfully, as a road block to advancements in cosmology. When you can show how we can control the universe for “controlled experiments” on cosmological scales then your augment might have some merit. Until then we are limited to those observations of “uncontrolled events in space” combined with what we can learn from the limited “controlled experiments” here on Earth.

The only thing you'll ever learn about inflation in a "real experiment" here on Earth is that it's a giant no show, like magic faeries, and invisible unicorns. It's a math myth, a lot like numerology.

Unfortunately it is not only the scales involved, but it is also the fact that certain processes or conditions are only evident or become dominate on scales that are simply un-producible in current labs or in some cases any possible lab.

You can't "scale" something that doesn't exist! You're tying to scale magic monkey based on your claim that they only show up "out there somewhere". Come on. You can't scale something that you can't demonstrate to exist in the first place.

So observation or collection and analysis of data becomes the dominate factor.

I'll grant you that observations can be used to separate valid mathematical models from ones that don't work, but *only* if you stick to known forces/curvatures of nature! You can't make up magic stuff and slap it into a math formula related and start pointing at the sky looking for verification of your magic stuff.

Let’s not forget that “controlled experiments” are just observation or the data collection and analysis of some process that one tries to have a certain degree of control over.

Those "control mechanisms" allow us to determine the actual "cause", whereas your uncontrolled observation of invisible monkeys can't be verified based on a functional math formula. The problem here is simple. You guys can't demonstrate that inflation has any affect on the observation of redshift. Period. It's all numerology math that has no value whatsoever on Earth because inflation is evidently gone by now and we therefore will *never* be able to "experiment" with it in *any* condition. It's like the ultimate act of "faith". I have to simply accept the idea that magic inflation faeries farted out a whole universe and they are gone now, so I can't ever see them or see them do anything today. If that isn't a "religion", what is?
 
It's time for some semantics.

No, it's time for a real "experiment" with real "control mechanisms" that demonstrate that inflation isn't a figment of your collective imagination. If you can't demonstrate your math is in any way related to physical affects on Earth, then I have every scientific reason to reject your claim and to "lack belief" that it has any affect on anything, anywhere.
 
Thanks for the swift response.

However, you didn't answer the question I asked, which was "Are you prepared to go through this "whopper" in detail, to see just how well it accounts for all directly relevant astronomical observations?"

A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

Sure, I'll give it shot. I don't profess to be the author of the paper mind you, but I'll be happy to defend his work to the best of my ability.

On the theory side, perhaps I was too quick off the mark in assuming you'd already spotted at least one fatal flaw; never mind, several others have (collectively) pointed out more than one such flaw, so there's no need to take up more server space discussing them, is there.

Of course there's a reason to discuss these concerns, but you didn't instantly give up your belief in inflation just because I pointed out some problems in your theory did you? Do you expect me to reject his whole work in a couple of posts only because *you* think that you have found some problem in one of his papers?
 
Sure you can. You forget time dilation, another lab-verified phenomenon which contributes to redshift. When you take time dilation into account, you can obtain arbitrarily large redshifts. And again, I'm not even resorting to expanding space, I'm only dealing with things (doppler shift and time dilation) which have been verified experimentally right here on earth.

But see, I don't have any problem with you using *any* type of redshift that you can physically verify. It's not that I reject *all* possible mainstream explanations of the redshift phenomenon, just the ones they can't actually demonstrate. I will admit again for the record that Ari's solution is no "better" than "space expansion" in that respect, but it's not any worse either, and it's based on KNOWN forces of nature, not new ones that cannot ever be demonstrate on Earth.

This has already been pointed out to you: it won't blur images or spectral lines. Compton scattering will.

Sure, but over these distances, so what? An image of a distant galaxy is bound to be a little bit "blurred" by lots of scattering effects. We observe these scattering effects in satellite images of our own sun. Over these distances however, I see no evidence that such an effect would result in noticeable changes to the images. You're just sort of handwaving that around and expecting me to buy it just because you say it's true.

Any tired light process which doesn't violate conservation of energy and momentum will. But again, we don't need to resort to expanding space: all we need do is acknowledge that redshifts mean objects are moving away from each other.

Most light that "scatters' will simply never reach Earth, it won't necessarily make the image more "blurry". It will have some affect on the total amount of light that reaches us, but I personally believe that part of the reason the mainstream keeps grossly underestimating the mass of a galaxy.

You are forgetting, once again, that inflation does not mean any expansion of space.

Ya, we have to keep these metaphysical fudge factors separate and clear. :)

Can you accept that yet, or are you still in denial?

That's like me saying "Ari's papers demonstrate that no movement occurs. Do you accept it or are you still in denial? The fact you hand me a math formula does not mean it's accurate. Which of us in in denial here if I'm personally willing to let you use demonstrated redshift phenomenon, and all I reject is the one's you cannot demonstrate? If you can't physically demonstrate your claims, why am I obligated to accept them or be accused of being "in denial"?
 
Interesting article on Universe Today.

http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/16/inflation-theory-takes-a-little-kick-in-the-pants/


Quote from above article
"This is all fairly confusing, but the sweetened condensed version is that if gravitational radiation is ever detected, that event won't necessarily verify inflation theory. Therefore, whether inflation theory can ever be confirmed remains to be seen."

What other experiments could confirm Inflation.
 
# The tired light model does not predict the observed time dilation of high redshift supernova light curves. This time dilation is a consequence of the standard interpretation of the redshift: a supernova that takes 20 days to decay will appear to take 40 days to decay when observed at redshift z=1.


http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0602500

.

The link provided does not appear to provide any evidence (only a bare statement) to counter the time dilation evidence of supernovae decay. When I first became aware of these supernovae decay observations, they appeared to provide strong evidence of cosmological expansion. I have yet to see a good alternative explanation. Can you provide anything more convincing?

For the same reason perpetual motion machines are impossible. The 2nd law says the entropy is increasing, and every star that forms generates a huge amount of entropy and uses up some of the available free energy. In our universe (I can't speak for yours), after a few more stellar generations all the available material for star formation will be used up, the remaining stars will burn out, and the universe will be a cold and dead place.

The details of the future evolution of the stellar population follow from understood principles of stellar dynamics. But even if you ignore those, the 2nd law is one of the most basic, well tested, and thoroughly understood laws of physics we have. An eternal universe which is still forming stars today violates it - it is a perpetual motion machine.

So there you have it - the theories you favor rely on wildly speculative mechanisms for redshift that have never been empirically demonstrated in any context (on the contrary, they are impossible according to all the data we have), violate the fundamental laws of physics (which have massive empirical support - there's a reason they're called "laws"), and are inconsistent with general relativity (which one of the other yous said he believed in), and the theory you claim is garbage and nonsense relies only on empirically and theoretically almost certain
phenomena like Doppler shift and general relativity.

Oh and incidentally, how does your eternal universe theory get around Olber's paradox? s. i.

Some very strong points there! How would any steady state theory deal with these problems?
 
But see, I don't have any problem with you using *any* type of redshift that you can physically verify.

Then you shouldn't have any problem with the conclusion that galaxies are all moving away from each other at large length scales. Don't believe in expanding space, that's fine: but the conclusion that distant galaxies are moving away faster than nearby galaxies is still inescapable, based (again) only on what can be (and has been) verified on earth.

Sure, but over these distances, so what?

So intrinsic blurring should be related to redshift, but it isn't. The energy spectra of distant galaxies is still nice and sharp.

Over these distances however, I see no evidence that such an effect would result in noticeable changes to the images.

Have you bothered to try to find out how much blurring you should expect? And again: it's not simply the spatial resolution which should get blurred. More importantly, the energy spectra should get blurred. But it doesn't.

Most light that "scatters' will simply never reach Earth

And hence won't get picked up as a redshift. But lots of light is reaching earth with large red shifts, which (according to the theory you linked to) means it scattered many times. Somehow, it either reaches us without showing any signs of any sort of random spread, or it doesn't reach us at all. Every photon from any one source gets redshifted by exactly the same amount, no spread in energy loss at all. Sorry, but that's grade-A bull****. Scattering doesn't work that way. And we CAN verify that in lab.
 
His one claim about Higgs condensates not being composed of particles has already been thoroughly debunked.

You do realize that every person reading this knows you're lying, right? And that every time you say something like that you destroy what tiny morsel of credibility you have left?

His claim was related to particles per volume and he can't support his claim. When asked for any sort of units, he ran like hell.

No, I explained you you that the units are irrelevant. Your question was incoherent anyway - what did you want the units of? You want to know what the units of a scalar potential are? They're energy density (joules per cubic meter, for example). Did you want to know what the numerical magnitude of the Higgs potential is in those units? If so, ask - although it's totally irrelevant to the question of whether scalar potential energy densities redshift during expansion.

Not only are you clueless, your debate style is less than ethical. When did I claim that was an "experiment"?

Oh, I see - so now you're saying that doesn't constitute good evidence. So in that case the theory of dinosaur extinction, and more generally the evolutionary history of life on earth, is all "faerie farts" and nonsense? Odd, that's not what the other other MM was saying... looks like yet another flipflop to me!

Dizzy yet?
 
You do realize that every person reading this knows you're lying, right?

I realize that anyone who knows anything about particle physics and can read knows that you lied what you said that a Higgs condensate was not composed of particles and that your argument falls apart from there. If they didn't follow it, oh well, it's no skin off my nose. I know you're full of it. No known vector or scalar field in nature retains near constant density over exponential increases in volume, not light, not atomic condensates, not Higgs condensates. You're blowing smoke and that much is damn obvious from your statements, not to mention the fact you could *never* demonstrate your claim.

And that every time you say something like that you destroy what tiny morsel of credibility you have left?

You lost credibility with me the moment you claimed that the Higgs condensate was not composed of particles. From there is was a pathetic attempt to justify your nonsense and if others had not tried to come to your rescue you would have been crucified instantly. Only the distractions may have made a few folks actually believe your original claim was pure BS.

No, I explained you you that the units are irrelevant.

And I've explained why they *are* relevant. I've also explained why a real PHYSICAL DEMONSTRATION is "relevant. You can't even provide units of measurement consistent with your claim (Higgs particles/cubic meter), and I know damn well you will *never* physically demonstrate your claim and so does everyone else here.

Your question was incoherent anyway - what did you want the units of?
You claimed a Higgs condensate would retain near constant density over multiple exponential increases in volume. The logical unit of measurement for such a claim would be "Higgs bosons/cubic meter". Let's *at least* see you provide at units of measurement consistent with your claim to that half*ssed formula of yours.

No dodging, no weaving, lets see your math *and the units of actual physics*.
 
<angry and incoherent nonsense snipped>

You claimed a Higgs condensate would retain near constant density over multiple exponential increases in volume. The logical unit of measurement for such a claim would be "Higgs bosons/cubic meter". Let's *at least* see you provide at units of measurement consistent with your claim to that half*ssed formula of yours.

No dodging, no weaving, lets see your math *and the units of actual physics*.

The last part is incoherent too, but wth - let's see how much entertainment you can provide. If you look e.g. here, you'll see the action for the Higgs particle. Notice that V(|\phi|)? That's the potential energy functional for the Higgs field. It has units of energy per volume - so Joules/m^3 for example (NOT number density). In the condensed phase \phi takes a constant value (called a "vacuum expectation value", or vev) at a minimum of V.

What I proved earlier is that when you couple that field to gravity (as you must according to general relativity) that potential energy density does not change when the universe expands if the field \phi is constant, and moreover that \phi=C for some constant C is a solution to the equations if the V'(C)=0 and the metric is of Robertson-Walker form (i.e. an expanding universe).

Translated, that means that when scalar fields sit at a local minimum of their potentials, their potential energy acts just like a cosmological constant or vacuum energy - i.e. the energy density is constant and independent of the expansion or contraction of space.

Now, MM - what was your question about units, again?
 
DeiRenDopa said:
Thanks for the swift response.

However, you didn't answer the question I asked, which was "Are you prepared to go through this "whopper" in detail, to see just how well it accounts for all directly relevant astronomical observations?"

A simple "yes" or "no" will do.
Sure, I'll give it shot. I don't profess to be the author of the paper mind you, but I'll be happy to defend his work to the best of my ability.

[...]
Again, thanks for the swift response.

First, I assume you got the wrong Ari Brynjolfsson paper, in your earlier post (the one you provided a link to is only 19 pages long, not 95). No worries, I'll assume that you mean the set of Ari Brynjolfsson papers on 'plasma redshift', unless you tell us all otherwise.

Here's a few of the relevant observations, off the top of my head:

* Scranton et al.'s 2005 paper on weak gravitational lensing of quasars in the SDSS DR3 (link is to the arXiv preprint)

* the neutrino version of Olbers' paradox (especially one filled with stars that shine by the Michael Mozina/O. Manuel mechanism)

* quasar and quasar host galaxy redshifts are the same

* angular smearing of objects not observed, out to z ~6, across the whole EM spectrum (though this is not a particularly stringent test for the gamma ray region)

* ditto, wrt line widths

* existence of the Gunn-Peterson trough

* CMB temperature higher at high z (than locally)

* z-dependent AGN/quasar volume density (under AB's cosmology, MM's, or LCDM models)

* complete lack of GRBs with redshifts >~7

* disappearance of the "δz′MW ≈ 0.00095" signal in the much larger databases of SNe Ia than AB used, back in 2003/4

* heating of the IGM in rich clusters by AGN jets (leaves nowhere for AB's mechanism to dump its energy).

No doubt there's more, but that should get you started ... pick one and give us an 'AB plasma redshift/cosmology' explanation.
 
His one claim about Higgs condensates not being composed of particles has already been thoroughly debunked.

I haven't seen where. You do understand that the same word can have multiple definitions?

His claim was related to particles per volume and he can't support his claim. When asked for any sort of units, he ran like hell.

No his claim wasn't, you still don't understand what he's referring to there when he said condensate. Different use of the word than a condensate made up of atoms.


It's in JOULES! Gah. I won't do these one by one.

Is it now? What if I measure mass in dead cats? What if I measure the speed of light in furlongs per fortnight? Is it still in joules?

I care that you aren't just making things up as you go, and knowing what units are in use is typical in any calculation. Get over it. I didn't ask for the moon, just the units of measurement.

Units are important if you are actually making a calculation to come up with a result, but if you are using the formula to demonstrate a relationship or whatever then the units don't matter.

The area of a circle is equal to the square of the radius times pie, regardless of what units I use. Cubits, cm, miles, AU, lengths of string, whatever. Agreed?

Your participation in this thread takes you out of the role of "innocent bystander" and puts you squarely in the roll of 'peanut gallery commentator'. The "train wreck" is watching you all try to avoid the fact you can't physically demonstrate inflation, so you're attempting to attack the messenger. How predictable.

You can't physically demonstrate Pluto exists either. What's your point?
 
I haven't seen where. You do understand that the same word can have multiple definitions?

Sure, but the term Higgs condensate relates to a collection of Higgs particles. It's not a magic thingy, just a collection of particles.

No his claim wasn't, you still don't understand what he's referring to there when he said condensate. Different use of the word than a condensate made up of atoms.
The only difference is that it's made up of Higgs particles.

Is it now? What if I measure mass in dead cats? What if I measure the speed of light in furlongs per fortnight? Is it still in joules?

This is the kind of nonsense you guys come up with instead of noting you can't demonstrate your claims empirically. It's all tangents and weird analogies.

Units are important if you are actually making a calculation to come up with a result, but if you are using the formula to demonstrate a relationship or whatever then the units don't matter.
If one claims that a Higgs condensate will undergo exponential increases in volume and experience no change in density, the units are *critically important* and damn obvious too. What's the problem?

You can't physically demonstrate Pluto exists either. What's your point?

That's not true. I can see it emit light and track it in orbit. What's your point?
 
I realize that anyone who knows anything about particle physics and can read knows that you lied what you said that a Higgs condensate was not composed of particles

I know particle physics. I can read. Sol was right and you are wrong. The Higgs condensate, like the inflaton condensate, is not composed of Higgs particles but rather is "composed of" a vacuum expectation value.

This is perfectly valid quantum field theory, MM, and it uses exact same quantum field theory analysis tools that work perfectly well in QED, QCD, electroweak theory, and a raft of condensed matter problems. Do you want to argue that those tools are broken? Do you want to argue that we're misapplying them? Do you want to argue that quantum mechanics is invalid or immune to scientific inquiry? No?

You are, in fact, making two utterly contradictory arguments:
  • We shouldn't give too much credence to the inflation hypothesis because (something about the scientific method) demands extraordinary laboratory-based proof beyond a reasonable doubt, your honor.
  • Inflation isn't even a valid hypothesis because OMG the units are wrong you morons
 
Interesting article on Universe Today.

http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/16/inflation-theory-takes-a-little-kick-in-the-pants/


Quote from above article
"This is all fairly confusing, but the sweetened condensed version is that if gravitational radiation is ever detected, that event won't necessarily verify inflation theory. Therefore, whether inflation theory can ever be confirmed remains to be seen."

In other words they can't even decide if their "tests" (lacking any control mechanism of any sort) are even capable of verifying or falsifying the claim. The answer it obviously, "no", a pure observation cannot falsify or verify the existence of inflation. It was never shown to even exist in nature!

What other experiments could confirm Inflation.
None. This was not even an actual "experiment", it was simply a realization that inflation isn't the only thing that can generate specific observations that were once claimed to be the exclusive domain of inflation.

Like I said, inflation is utterly useless at 'predicting' anything useful whatsoever. It's numerology and pointless, untestable numerology at that.
 
Sure, but the term Higgs condensate relates to a collection of Higgs particles.

No, it doesn't. You found one source aimed at a general audience which (incorrectly) referred to it as such in order to simplify their explanation. But it's just not true. Your repeated insistence on something which is false, and which everyone but you seems to understand is false, is just making you look silly.

It's not a magic thingy

Correct: it's a field. If I have an electric field of 1 Volt/meter, what's the photon density of that field? It's a nonsensical question. Assigning a number density of Higgs particles to the Higgs field is likewise nonsensical.
 
I know particle physics. I can read. Sol was right and you are wrong. The Higgs condensate, like the inflaton condensate, is not composed of Higgs particles but rather is "composed of" a vacuum expectation value.

Nope. This is exactly why math alone doesn't cut it. Nothing is composed of an "expectation value". Everything that is "real" is a mass object and/or has a tangible effect on objects of mass. You're confusing a useful QM function about randomness with real physical objects. The Higgs condensate is simply a collection of Higgs particles that can pick up energy or not. They can "spread out" and become less dense too just like any particle condensate. It's not a magic creation field of infinite Higgs bosons. The condensate is *COMPOSED OF* Higg's Bosons.

The tools are not "broken" by the way, you're simply "misapplying them" in damn obvious ways.

You are, in fact, making two utterly contradictory arguments:
We shouldn't give too much credence to the inflation hypothesis because (something about the scientific method) demands extraordinary laboratory-based proof beyond a reasonable doubt, your honor.

How is that any different than for any other branch of science, or did you just expect me to hand you a license to make stuff up?


Inflation isn't even a valid hypothesis because OMG the units are wrong you morons

Honestly, is strawman creation part of your curriculum when they stuff your head full of Lambda-faeries?

His claim is BS because he can't provide units (I think he actually has done so now but I haven't read through is last post yet) that demonstrate that a Higgs condensate will expand exponentially and retain near constant density. It's never going to happen. It will definitely never happen here on Earth in a lab in a controlled experiment.
 
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After reading through the plasma cosmology thread today, I'm curious how mainstream Lambda theory would hold up to the same level of scrutiny? What exactly does Lambda-CDM theory "predict" without the use of unfalsifiable and unverifiable entities?

For instance, what empirical evidence supports the idea of inflation? No other known vector or scalar field found in nature will retain near constant density over several exponential increases in volume. The presumed homogeneous layout of matter used to be inflation's primary claim to fame, yet recent observations of "dark flows" would suggest that matter is not homogeneously distributed as "predicted" by inflation. What empirical evidence from controlled experiments demonstrates that inflation even exists in nature?

Dark energy? What is that? How do I get some? What controlled empirical test demonstrates it has any effect on nature?

What about all the so called "properties" of dark matter? How do we verify or falsify these ideas?

In what tangible and demonstrateable way is Lambda-CDM theory any "better" than any other cosmology theory?
I'd like to see where we're up to, wrt answering the question this thread asks.

First, the question - and thread - appears in the JREF Forum's Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology section, so I guess it's OK to assume "woo" means "woo in the context of "Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and/or Technology". Further, since "Lambda-CDM theory" doesn't have anything to do with Medicine, we can refine the scope. Then, although there are certainly Mathematics and Technology aspects to "Lambda-CDM theory" they are secondary*.

So the question becomes "is "Lambda-CDM theory" scientific woo or not?".

Well, to answer that question, we need to have a common understanding of what "scientific woo" is, don't we?

Of course, we could always ask the site owners or admins or moderators to clarify for us, but ahead of doing that, can we take a stab at working out an answer?

One such answer might be along the lines of "that which is published in relevant peer-reviewed journals and presented at relevant conferences", where "relevant" is understood to mean something like "to do with cosmology".

If so, then "Lambda-CDM theory" is certainly not scientific woo; case closed.

But perhaps a somewhat different definition of 'scientific woo' might be called for, something that deals with what's written in the OP, about 'evidence', 'scrutiny', 'falsification', 'verifiability', and so on?

If so, then "Lambda-CDM theory" is certainly not scientific woo, as was made quite clear in the first page of posts in this thread ... it has been intensely scrutinised, there is tonnes of evidence to support it (and essentially none that doesn't), it is quintessentially falsifiable and verifiable, and so on.

Now I think it's fair to say that MM, the OP, is of the (strong) opinion that "Lambda-CDM theory" is, in fact, woo.

Why?

Clearly not because of reasons of falsifiability, verifiability, evidence, scrutiny etc ... if those were the kinds of reasons, then he'd've provided a link to a paper such as this: Five-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) Observations: Cosmological Interpretation (link is to the astro-ph preprint; some formatting is lost):
Komatsu et al. (abstract) said:
(Abridged) The WMAP 5-year data strongly limit deviations from the minimal LCDM model. We constrain the physics of inflation via Gaussianity, adiabaticity, the power spectrum shape, gravitational waves, and spatial curvature. We also constrain the properties of dark energy, parity-violation, and neutrinos. We detect no convincing deviations from the minimal model. The parameters of the LCDM model, derived from WMAP combined with the distance measurements from the Type Ia supernovae (SN) and the Baryon Acoustic Oscillations (BAO), are: Omega_b=0.0456+-0.0015, Omega_c=0.228+-0.013, Omega_Lambda=0.726+-0.015, H_0=70.5+-1.3 km/s/Mpc, n_s=0.960+-0.013, tau=0.084+-0.016, and sigma_8=0.812+-0.026. With WMAP+BAO+SN, we find the tensor-to-scalar ratio r<0.22 (95% CL), and n_s>1 is disfavored regardless of r. We obtain tight, simultaneous limits on the (constant) equation of state of dark energy and curvature. We provide a set of "WMAP distance priors," to test a variety of dark energy models. We test a time-dependent w with a present value constrained as -0.33<1+w_0<0.21 (95% CL). Temperature and matter fluctuations obey the adiabatic relation to within 8.9% and 2.1% for the axion and curvaton-type dark matter, respectively. The TE and EB spectra constrain cosmic parity-violation. We find the limit on the total mass of neutrinos, sum(m_nu)<0.67 eV (95% CL), which is free from the uncertainty in the normalization of the large-scale structure data. The effective number of neutrino species is constrained as N_{eff} = 4.4+-1.5 (68%), consistent with the standard value of 3.04. Finally, limits on primordial non-Gaussianity are -9<f_{NL}^{local}<111 and -151<f_{NL}^{equil}<253 (95% CL) for the local and equilateral models, respectively.

So what's going on?

Here's my working hypothesis: MM has a very different view of what modern cosmology, as a science, is than almost everyone else who has posted to this thread. If that's the case, I'd like to take this thread in somewhat of a different direction and focus on what MM's view of modern cosmology, as a science, is. In particular, I'd like to examine the extent to which it is internally consistent and the evidence there is that it employs critical thinking.

* though perhaps it's worth taking a look at these aspects later
 
Nope. This is exactly why math alone doesn't cut it. Nothing is composed of a "expectation value". Everything that is "real" mass objects and/or has a tangible effect on objects of mass. You're confusing a useful QM function about randomness with real physical objects.

You betray your ignorance yet again. If you have a massive object, how many particles does it have? Why, the obvious answer (or at least, obvious to anyone who understands quantum mechanics) is the expectation value of the number operator. We can often treat our wave function as being in an eigenstate of the number operator, but there are rather important exceptions (such as particle pair creation events).

The Higgs condensate is simply a collection of Higgs particles

No it is not. Repetition will not make it so.

It will definitely never happen here on Earth in a lab in a controlled experiment.

Big surprise: we can't curve space to any significant degree in a lab either, and probably never will. Do you have any idea why that is so?
 
No, it doesn't. You found one source aimed at a general audience which (incorrectly) referred to it as such in order to simplify their explanation. But it's just not true. Your repeated insistence on something which is false, and which everyone but you seems to understand is false, is just making you look silly.

Riiight. You refuse to embrace reality and it's all my fault....... Of course you can't demonstrate squat.

Correct: it's a field. If I have an electric field of 1 Volt/meter, what's the photon density of that field? It's a nonsensical question. Assigning a number density of Higgs particles to the Higgs field is likewise nonsensical.
Nope. In the case of the EM field the photon is only the carrier particle. In a Higgs boson condensate, the Higgs is the carrier of mass and part of the condensate *at the same time*. It's just changing energy states, not the total number of particles in the field.
 
No his claim wasn't, you still don't understand what he's referring to there when he said condensate. Different use of the word than a condensate made up of atoms.

Let me try to clear that up a little. The Higgs condensate is named that for a reason, and it is indeed by analogy to condensed matter condensates like Cooper pairs in superconductivity and Bose-Einstein condensates of atoms. The theory that describes them is very similar in some ways - all three can be described by a scalar field theory (which is an approximation in the condensed matter cases, but fundamental in the Higgs case) in which the scalar condenses and spontaneously breaks a symmetry.

However there are some very important differences as well. One which is crucial for this discussion is that the Higgs condensate is Lorentz invariant. If you boost a Bose-Einstein condensate, its density will increase due to Lorentz contraction. But if you boost the Higgs condensate, nothing happens - the density is invariant. That makes no sense for a substance made of a fixed number density of particles - but then, the Higgs condensate isn't.

Another difference is that in a BEC we can think of the condensate as being formed from atoms. But inside a large BEC, there is not really any such thing as an atom - the wavefunctions of the atoms are spread uniformly across the whole thing, and the excitations of that substance look nothing like individual atoms moving around (which is why BECs have such weird properties). If you lived inside a giant BEC (as we do inside the condensed Higgs phase), you'd never describe it in terms of atoms. So the degrees of freedom in the condensate bear little or no relation to the degrees of freedom in the uncondensed phase. Same goes for superconductivity.

The Higgs condensate is similar in that the degrees of freedom in the two phases are different, but in that case the Higgs particle is by definition an excitation of the condensed phase. If anything can be said to condense, it is certainly NOT Higgs particles - that would be nonsensical, since they do not even exist in the uncondensed phase. Instead what condenses are the excitations of the uncondensed phase (which don't have a more convenient name) - but at the phase transition those excitations are massless, and so the number of them is not well-defined (for reasons I explained before, which are the same reasons Zig has mentioned with regard to photons).
 
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Riiight. You refuse to embrace reality and it's all my fault....... Of course you can't demonstrate squat.

You claimed to have "debunked" my mathematical proof that the Higgs condensate (or any other Lorentz scalar condensate) has a potential energy density that is constant as the universe expands. But your "debunking" consisted solely of asking irrelevant questions about "units". I answered those anyway (for entertainment) in #293 above.

So - do you now admit the math is correct? If not, please explain why - we're waiting with baited breath. Statements like "it's obviously wrong" aren't going to cut it - I gave you a specific mathematical derivation, and even answered your bizarre and irrelevant question about the units of V. So: which step is wrong?
 
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So the question becomes "is "Lambda-CDM theory" scientific woo or not?".

Well, to answer that question, we need to have a common understanding of what "scientific woo" is, don't we?

Of course, we could always ask the site owners or admins or moderators to clarify for us, but ahead of doing that, can we take a stab at working out an answer?

I *definitely* second your idea to have Randi (or someone in his place) define the rules here. I would define it as anything like numerology that has a math formula attached to the idea and no actual "predictive" value in controlled scientific tests with real control mechanisms. You better hope JR doesn't get interested in this issue. You guys won't even pass his first question either by the way.

One such answer might be along the lines of "that which is published in relevant peer-reviewed journals and presented at relevant conferences", where "relevant" is understood to mean something like "to do with cosmology".

Appeal to authority fallacy. It's along the lines of asking other numerologists to decide what it right based on what they are willing to publish. You'll have to do something useful with your math.

If so, then "Lambda-CDM theory" is certainly not scientific woo; case closed.
Like there has never been anything "published' on numerology? If publishing something is all that matters then numerology is not scientific woo, case closed. Sorry, that one definitely won't cut it.

But perhaps a somewhat different definition of 'scientific woo' might be called for, something that deals with what's written in the OP, about 'evidence', 'scrutiny', 'falsification', 'verifiability', and so on?

Ya think? :) How about you even try passing his first question on whatever you claim you can physically demonstrate is related to inflation and dark energy?

If so, then "Lambda-CDM theory" is certainly not scientific woo, as was made quite clear in the first page of posts in this thread ... it has been intensely scrutinised,

I've only been scrutinizing it a week and already you're all squealing like pigs and hiding from the fact you can't physically demonstrate squat.

there is tonnes of evidence to support it

Prove it in a *controlled* experiment for us.

(and essentially none that doesn't), it is quintessentially falsifiable and verifiable, and so on.
BS. How can I "verify" it actually affects anything in a physical or tangible or empirical way before you point to the sky and claim "may magic math did it"?

Now I think it's fair to say that MM, the OP, is of the (strong) opinion that "Lambda-CDM theory" is, in fact, woo.

Indeed. As it relates to your claim about the inflation deity, I am a "strong" atheist. As it relates to this debate, I am simply a "weak" atheists who lacks belief and expects to see some evidence to support your claim of an inflation deity.

So what's going on?

What's going on is that you're playing numerology games to distract from the fact that you can't actually physically or empirically demonstrate anything. It's pure smoke and mirrors and any real "experiment" involving control mechanisms will demonstrate this fact conclusively. It is literally "metaphysical garbage" with no predictive value. It's inflation numerology.

Here's my working hypothesis: MM has a very different view of what modern cosmology, as a science, is than almost everyone else who has posted to this thread.

Not really. I'm simply an EU advocate that lacks belief in your inflation deity. You made the claim. All I'm asking you to do is demonstrate inflation isn't a figment of your collective imagination empirically. Why is that too much to ask? I can show you gravity exists in a controlled experiment. I can show you EM fields exist in a controlled experiment. Therefore my cosmology theories are easily demonstrated, and Birkeland has physically demonstrated many of my core beliefs in controlled experimentation. What's your problem?
 
Sure, but the term Higgs condensate relates to a collection of Higgs particles. It's not a magic thingy, just a collection of particles.

See Zig's and sol's reply.

This is the kind of nonsense you guys come up with instead of noting you can't demonstrate your claims empirically. It's all tangents and weird analogies.

No, I'm using different units to illustrate that there's nothing magical about units; they don't matter when you are describing the relationship.

And you didn't answer the question. If I used some different units of measure for mass and the speed of light, would the answer still be in Joules?

People resort to tangents and analogies when someone doesn't understand what they're saying. The purpose of an analogy is to take something one doesn't understand and relate it to something that one should understand in an effort to bring understanding to the doesn't understand part. If you notice people using a lot of analogies with you it's because you are missing what they're trying to say.

If one claims that a Higgs condensate will undergo exponential increases in volume and experience no change in density, the units are *critically important* and damn obvious too. What's the problem?

He gave you units already, what's the problem? I guess the problem is that it's not in "Higgs per volume" that you want but that doesn't apply anyway?


That's not true. I can see it emit light and track it in orbit. What's your point?

I assume you mean you can see it reflect light.. But by your own standards you've imposed on other phenomenon you can't say this. You only see the light reflected from Pluto, and before it was visible you could only infer its existence by movements of other bodies. You can't test for its existence in controlled experiment. You can't get Pluto at wal-mart, so it doesn't exist.

I'm just using your own lines of reasoning...

I also notice you skipped out part of my post about units, so I'll re-ask:

Units are important if you are actually making a calculation to come up with a result, but if you are using the formula to demonstrate a relationship or whatever then the units don't matter.

The area of a circle is equal to the square of the radius times pi, regardless of what units I use. Cubits, cm, miles, AU, lengths of string, whatever. Agreed?
 
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Appeal to authority fallacy.

Evidently you don't know what "fallacy" means. Appeal to legitimate authority - like the experts in a field - is obviously not a "fallacy". It's just the opposite - it's the best answer humanity can give.

Appeal to a false authority - as you did recently, with your creationist-style list of doubters - is a fallacy.

I've only been scrutinizing it a week and already you're all squealing like pigs and hiding from the fact you can't physically demonstrate squat.

Nah - it's just entertaining to bait trolls for a while. Eventually we'll get bored and go on to ripping a new one for the next quack that happens by.
 
Another difference is that in a BEC we can think of the condensate as being formed from atoms. But inside a large BEC, there is not really any such thing as an atom - the wavefunctions of the atoms are spread uniformly across the whole thing, and the excitations of that substance look nothing like individual atoms moving around (which is why BECs have such weird properties). If you lived inside a giant BEC (as we do inside the condensed Higgs phase), you'd never describe it in terms of atoms. So the degrees of freedom in the condensate bear little or no relation to the degrees of freedom in the uncondensed phase. Same goes for superconductivity.

Thanks for this, this helps me out!
 
Let me try to clear that up a little. The Higgs condensate is named that for a reason, and it is indeed by analogy to condensed matter condensates like Cooper pairs in superconductivity and Bose-Einstein condensates of atoms. The theory that describes them is very similar in some ways - all three can be described by a scalar field theory (which is an approximation in the condensed matter cases, but fundamental in the Higgs case) in which the scalar condenses and spontaneously breaks a symmetry.

However there are some very important differences as well. One which is crucial for this discussion is that the Higgs condensate is Lorentz invariant. If you boost a Bose-Einstein condensate, its density will increase due to Lorentz contraction. But if you boost the Higgs condensate, nothing happens - the density is invariant. That makes no sense for a substance made of a fixed number density of particles - but then, the Higgs condensate isn't.

Another difference is that in a BEC we can think of the condensate as being formed from atoms. But inside a large BEC, there is not really any such thing as an atom - the wavefunctions of the atoms are spread uniformly across the whole thing, and the excitations of that substance look nothing like individual atoms moving around (which is why BECs have such weird properties). If you lived inside a giant BEC (as we do inside the condensed Higgs phase), you'd never describe it in terms of atoms. So the degrees of freedom in the condensate bear little or no relation to the degrees of freedom in the uncondensed phase. Same goes for superconductivity.

The Higgs condensate is similar in that the degrees of freedom in the two phases are different, but in that case the Higgs particle is by definition an excitation of the condensed phase. If anything can be said to condense, it is certainly NOT Higgs particles - that would be nonsensical, since they do not even exist in the uncondensed phase. Instead what condenses are the excitations of the uncondensed phase (which don't have a more convenient name) - but at the phase transition those excitations are massless, and so the number of them is not well-defined (for reasons I explained before, which are the same reasons Zig has mentioned with regard to photons).

OK -- from a naive point of view:
All the sources I have looked at regard the Higgs field (and particle) to be hypothetical extensions of the standard model. So, how do we know so much (in such exact detail) about a hypothetical particle and field? This situation appears to give some credibility to MM's claim that its all mathematics and not physics.
 
OK -- from a naive point of view:
All the sources I have looked at regard the Higgs field (and particle) to be hypothetical extensions of the standard model. So, how do we know so much (in such exact detail) about a hypothetical particle and field? This situation appears to give some credibility to MM's claim that its all mathematics and not physics.

There are two logically distinct questions:

1) is the standard model + Higgs theory the correct description of nature, and

2) what are the properties of the standard model+Higgs theory?

This discussion has been about 2), not 1). You're correct that we don't know the answer to 1) - that's what hte LHC was built to find out. We do know quite a bit, though - we know that there is spontaneous breaking of electro-weak symmetry, and that something has to be responsible for that. There are quite a few known alternatives to the Higgs, but all of them are either strongly disfavored by existing data or are variations on the Higgs theme (more complex versions of the simplest model). And either way, the physics of inflation, and the fact that the energy in a Lorentz scalar condensate does not change with expansion of space, is completely independent of 1).

As for whether this is all math - physics is the attempt to describe nature using mathematics. That attempt has been astonishingly successful. If you're reading this it's because you are looking at a computer monitor connected to the internet - 'nuff said. What physicists have learned is that mathematics is the correct language for describing nature, and further that the consistency requirements inherent in it are extremely restrictive - it's very, very, very difficult to write down theories that are consistent both internally and with existing data. As a result, physicists take the successful ones seriously, and that attitude has been extremely productive (it has resulted in extremely precise and successful prediction after successful prediction). So while nothing is certain, some things are nearly so - and taking mathematical models of fundamental physics seriously is one of the lessons learned.
 
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There are two logically distinct questions:

1) is the standard model + Higgs theory the correct description of nature, and

2) what are the properties of the standard model+Higgs theory?

This discussion has been about 2), not 1). You're correct that we don't know the answer to 1) - that's what hte LHC was built to find out. We do know quite a bit, though - we know that there is spontaneous breaking of electro-weak symmetry, and that something has to be responsible for that. There are quite a few known alternatives to the Higgs, but all of them are either strongly disfavored by existing data or are variations on the Higgs theme (more complex versions of the simplest model). And either way, the physics of inflation, and the fact that the energy in a Lorentz scalar condensate does not change with expansion of space, is completely independent of 1).

As for whether this is all math - physics is the attempt to describe nature using mathematics. That attempt has been astonishingly successful. If you're reading this it's because you are looking at a computer monitor connected to the internet - 'nuff said. What physicists have learned is that mathematics is the correct language for describing nature, and further that the consistency requirements inherent in it are extremely restrictive - it's very, very, very difficult to write down theories that are consistent both internally and with existing data. As a result, physicists take the successful ones seriously, and that attitude has been extremely productive (it has resulted in extremely precise and successful prediction after successful prediction). So while nothing is certain, some things are nearly so - and taking mathematical models of fundamental physics seriously is one of the lessons learned.

The most marvelous aspect of the universe is that it does behave mathematically.
However, as I have no doubt you know, one has to be very careful how mathematics is applied to any physical reality. For example, if one tried to apply Boyle's gas law to the Higgs field (on the simplistic premise that a field is "kind of like" a gas), one would get nonsensical results. Boyle's law doesn't even work well for gasses in some situations. So, by simply "extending" the standard model to include the Higgs particle, how do we know we are getting any real physics?
 
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Thanks Michael, your post was way better than I'd hoped!

:)
I *definitely* second your idea to have Randi (or someone in his place) define the rules here. I would define it [scientific woo] as anything like numerology that has a math formula attached to the idea and no actual "predictive" value in controlled scientific tests with real control mechanisms. You better hope JR doesn't get interested in this issue. You guys won't even pass his first question either by the way.
That's really helpful, in terms of understanding how your idea of science (in this case) differs from that of working scientists, in general.

Unfortunately, to be helpful to the topic at hand - modern cosmology, as a science - it needs some clarification, I feel.

For example - what is this "numerology", and how does one test that one has "something like numerology" in one's test setup?

More important: what, to you, constitutes "actual "predictive" value in controlled scientific tests with real control mechanisms", in cosmology?

Appeal to authority fallacy. It's along the lines of asking other numerologists to decide what it right based on what they are willing to publish. You'll have to do something useful with your math.

Like there has never been anything "published' on numerology? If publishing something is all that matters then numerology is not scientific woo, case closed. Sorry, that one definitely won't cut it.
Actually, it's standard practice, as far as I understand it, in HPS ... one (and I stress only one) way to start to get a handle on your research subject (modern cosmology, as a science) is to collect all the things that people who "do" modern cosmology, as a science, publish.

Anyway, it's a rather unproductive approach, in this case, because it doesn't get to what I'm interested in ("MM's view of modern cosmology, as a science, is. In particular, I'd like to examine the extent to which it is internally consistent and the evidence there is that it employs critical thinking.")
DeiRenDopa said:
But perhaps a somewhat different definition of 'scientific woo' might be called for, something that deals with what's written in the OP, about 'evidence', 'scrutiny', 'falsification', 'verifiability', and so on?

Ya think? :) How about you even try passing his first question on whatever you claim you can physically demonstrate is related to inflation and dark energy?
If so, then "Lambda-CDM theory" is certainly not scientific woo, as was made quite clear in the first page of posts in this thread ... it has been intensely scrutinised,

I've only been scrutinizing it a week and already you're all squealing like pigs and hiding from the fact you can't physically demonstrate squat.
Though rather crudely, and rudely, expressed, this too is quite helpful; thanks.

there is tonnes of evidence to support it

Prove it in a *controlled* experiment for us.
(and essentially none that doesn't), it is quintessentially falsifiable and verifiable, and so on.

BS. How can I "verify" it actually affects anything in a physical or tangible or empirical way before you point to the sky and claim "may magic math did it"?



Indeed. As it relates to your claim about the inflation deity, I am a "strong" atheist. As it relates to this debate, I am simply a "weak" atheists who lacks belief and expects to see some evidence to support your claim of an inflation deity.



What's going on is that you're playing numerology games to distract from the fact that you can't actually physically or empirically demonstrate anything. It's pure smoke and mirrors and any real "experiment" involving control mechanisms will demonstrate this fact conclusively. It is literally "metaphysical garbage" with no predictive value. It's inflation numerology.



Not really. I'm simply an EU advocate that lacks belief in your inflation deity. You made the claim. All I'm asking you to do is demonstrate inflation isn't a figment of your collective imagination empirically. Why is that too much to ask? I can show you gravity exists in a controlled experiment. I can show you EM fields exist in a controlled experiment.
Once again, thanks for answering so quickly and so well, in terms of making it clear how your view of modern cosmology, as a science, differs from that of almost everyone else who has posted to this thread.

As I said earlier, I'd like to focus on these differences from now on, starting with my next post.

Therefore my cosmology theories are easily demonstrated, and Birkeland has physically demonstrated many of my core beliefs in controlled experimentation. What's your problem?
On first reading of this, I was going to say this isn't relevant ... but upon reflection I see that it is, very ... so thanks again. :)
 
Let me try to clear that up a little.

Er, right......

The Higgs condensate is named that for a reason, and it is indeed by analogy to condensed matter condensates like Cooper pairs in superconductivity and Bose-Einstein condensates of atoms. The theory that describes them is very similar in some ways - all three can be described by a scalar field theory (which is an approximation in the condensed matter cases, but fundamental in the Higgs case) in which the scalar condenses and spontaneously breaks a symmetry.

No Higgs bosons are created or destroyed in other words, they simply pick up an increased energy state....or they don't.

However there are some very important differences as well. One which is crucial for this discussion is that the Higgs condensate is Lorentz invariant. If you boost a Bose-Einstein condensate, its density will increase due to Lorentz contraction. But if you boost the Higgs condensate, nothing happens - the density is invariant.

Essentially correct. The *existing* boson(s) simply pick up an energy state.

That makes no sense for a substance made of a fixed number density of particles - but then, the Higgs condensate isn't.

Yes it is! The total number of Higgs bosons in the condensate never changes! You just said so yourself! Only the energy state changes. The density is unaffected by them picking up an energy state! Gah!

The only difference between these condensates is that Higgs particles are the carrier of mass and part of the condensate at the same time. You can spread out the particles and decrease the density of the Higgs field just like any other particle field just by increasing the volume.

The Higgs condensate is similar in that the degrees of freedom in the two phases are different, but in that case the Higgs particle is by definition an excitation of the condensed phase.

You're right, but then it should be obvious to you that the total number of particles in the condensate never changes! More of them can pick up an energy state, but they are incapable of "multiplying" only because we increase the volume. The density will *necessarily* be less than a more compact "condensate"! Sheesh.

If anything can be said to condense, it is certainly NOT Higgs particles - that would be nonsensical, since they do not even exist in the uncondensed phase.

The Higgs bosons exist in a higher energy state, or they don't. The number of particles is unchanged and the density is unchanged by the energy increase. The only way to affect the density is to increase/decrease the volume, in which case you will necessarily decrease/increase the density in the condensate.

I can't believe you can't see the error in your explanation. Despite your claim, the density of the condensate is not infinite. The "density" of Higgs bosons in the condensate is determined by the number of particles in the condensate divided by the volume. The number of Higgs in a higher energy state are irrelevant to the density per volume, but the volume most certainly has an effect on density!

Like I said, you are simply making this up as you go.

The Higgs condensate *is* composed of Higgs bosons and the density is determined by the number/volume like any other condensate. It's density is still total determined by particles/volume. Some of the Higgs bosons in the condensate simply have higher energy states than others, but in every other respect every part of the Higgs condensate is composed of Higgs particles like any other condensate, and they are the same as any other particle condensate. The rest of your claims are gibberish, and this is obvious bsaed on the fact you can't demonstrate your claim empirically in any possible way.
 
Thanks Michael, your post was way better than I'd hoped!

:)

That's really helpful, in terms of understanding how your idea of science (in this case) differs from that of working scientists, in general.

Unfortunately, to be helpful to the topic at hand - modern cosmology, as a science - it needs some clarification, I feel.

For example - what is this "numerology", and how does one test that one has "something like numerology" in one's test setup?

Beats me. I think a better question is "what is inflation" and how does one test that inflation is real in one's test setup?

More important: what, to you, constitutes "actual "predictive" value in controlled scientific tests with real control mechanisms", in cosmology?

Let's start with Birkeland's work. It is "by the book" empirical physics, and it has *significant* predictive value. For instance, Birkeland charged the surface of his sphere as a cathode and in doing so, he "discovered" many things he didn't actually expect to observe, and he wrote about them. He described the jets, the coronal loops, solar wind, aurora around spheres, rings, etc. At the time the mainstream believed that space was pretty much a vacuum without much movement of ions or electrons or anything he actually "predicted". All of these things have now been "observed" by satellites in space. That is by the book "science".

Compare that to simply "making up" a force of nature and pointing the sky with a math formula in hand.

The only thing that PC/EU theory depends on, and requires is the existence of gravity and the existence of EM fields, both of which are known to exist in nature and show up in the lab. What's wrong with your theory? Why doesn't it "predict" anything in a controlled experiment? What value does it have if you can't even show it exists in nature other than as a "fudge factor" in your math formulas?
 
The most marvelous aspect of the universe is that it does behave mathematically.
However, as I have no doubt you know, one has to be very careful how mathematics is applied to any physical reality. For example, if one tried to apply Boyle's gas law to the Higgs field (on the simplistic premise that a field is "kind of like" a gas), one would get nonsensical results. Boyle's law doesn't even work well for gasses in some situations. So, by simply "extending" the standard model to include the Higgs particle, how do we know we are getting any real physics?

The easy way to know if it's "real physics" is to "experiment" and find out if the math actually fits the experimental results. Since they can't even tell you where inflation comes from, or be sure it even exists anymore (they seem sure it doesn't exist in fact), it's impossible to "experiment" with anything. We simply have to have "faith" that inflation existed at some point in time and be happy with the idea we can never actually verify it's a real physical thing and not a imaginary friend conjured up in Alan Guth's overactive imagination. Sorry, but that doesn't fly for me even if they are happy with their dogma.
 
MM's view of modern cosmology, as science (1)

To get the ball rolling, I'd like to start with some stuff that's not, strictly speaking, modern cosmology*, the Sun.

In terms of "actual "predictive" value in controlled scientific tests with real control mechanisms", "physically demonstrate [something other than] squat", "actually affects anything in a physical or tangible or empirical way", "some evidence to support [one's] claim", "any real "experiment" involving control mechanisms will demonstrate [something] conclusively", "demonstrate [something] isn't a figment of your collective imagination empirically", "show [everyone something] exists in a controlled experiment", and "physically demonstrate[] many of my core beliefs in controlled experimentation", what would be acceptable, to you, re a statement such as this: "the Sun has a solid iron surface, and is powered by a [insert number here] mass neutron star at its core"?

Now, to be clear, I'm pretty sure I've got some aspects of your approach mischaracterised (even though I've quoted you) Michael, and my test statement about the Sun doesn't capture all the key aspects of one of your published papers, so I'd be grateful if you'd first suggest some corrections and edits, to make the above more atune to your approach to cosmology.

Then, could you please quickly summarise the parts of how what's in the paper with your name as an author meets with your criteria for science?

* though I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that, for MM, it is
 
Evidently you don't know what "fallacy" means. Appeal to legitimate authority - like the experts in a field - is obviously not a "fallacy". It's just the opposite - it's the best answer humanity can give.

BZZT! I don't believe the "experts" in astronomy have found the "best answer humanity can give". Now what? We just "assume" I'm wrong because I'm not a recognized "expert" like you? Give me a break.

Appeal to a false authority - as you did recently, with your creationist-style list of doubters - is a fallacy.
The only one of us peddling a creation event is you, not me. You better be careful where you start throwing stones.

Nah - it's just entertaining to bait trolls for a while. Eventually we'll get bored and go on to ripping a new one for the next quack that happens by.

I'm going to have fun with you here. I don't have to be polite here or take your BS or play nice. I can be as rude and arrogant as you, and I can be just as obnoxious as you if you insist. The only "quack" her is you. You can't empirically demonstrate squat. You have a numerology formula with zero in the way of predictive value in any controlled experiment. You're a quack with an attitude. If you didn't engage in ad homs and strawman arguments, you'd be utterly and completely defenseless. Those seem to be your only two claims to debating fame in fact.
 
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You mean it's part of the current dogma that you cannot empirically demonstrate. It's a "claim" you folks make that none of you can demonstrate.

Dogma? Not a chance. If you’ve got a theory that fits the observational data more accurately we would sure be glad to hear it.

Bull! You would have to show some physical link between a Higgs and inflation, and you forgot to ever do that. Paper claims don't count. I want to see real "physics".

It is called General Relativity, remember that thing that makes a GPS work and explains what we could not explain before about gravity.

It is "in your head" in the form of a mathematical formula that you cannot physically confirm! Gah. You guys can't even tell physics and empiricism from mathematical mythos.

Nope, it is quite literally at your feet as well as over your head. You obviously can’t tell that in today’s world physics has gone far beyond our human attributes of perception where there is no “empiricism” without applied mathematics.


The only thing you'll ever learn about inflation in a "real experiment" here on Earth is that it's a giant no show, like magic faeries, and invisible unicorns. It's a math myth, a lot like numerology.

Nope, as I said those experiments will confirm, refute or result in a modification of the model because as much as you might like and profess it to be, science is not dogma.


You can't "scale" something that doesn't exist! You're tying to scale magic monkey based on your claim that they only show up "out there somewhere". Come on. You can't scale something that you can't demonstrate to exist in the first place.

Well you missed the boat again on that one, the point was that certain aspects are scale dependent and those scales are simply un-producible in a lab. That certainly does not mean that those large scale effects do not exist simply because we are incapable of reproducing the conditions for those effects in a lab.


I'll grant you that observations can be used to separate valid mathematical models from ones that don't work, but *only* if you stick to known forces/curvatures of nature! You can't make up magic stuff and slap it into a math formula related and start pointing at the sky looking for verification of your magic stuff.

What you choose to grant or not to grant is completely irrelevant, as are whatever limits you would prefer to see placed on the “forces/curvatures of nature”.

Those "control mechanisms" allow us to determine the actual "cause", whereas your uncontrolled observation of invisible monkeys can't be verified based on a functional math formula. The problem here is simple. You guys can't demonstrate that inflation has any affect on the observation of redshift. Period. It's all numerology math that has no value whatsoever on Earth because inflation is evidently gone by now and we therefore will *never* be able to "experiment" with it in *any* condition. It's like the ultimate act of "faith". I have to simply accept the idea that magic inflation faeries farted out a whole universe and they are gone now, so I can't ever see them or see them do anything today. If that isn't a "religion", what is?

Well this is where you misunderstand. “can't be verified based on a functional math formula.”? Your forgetting about that whole General Relativity thing again aren’t you? In actuality the control has to be in the observations first. You can collect all the data you want, if it is not done in a controlled fashion it will most likely tell you nothing. With controlled observations of even uncontrolled events we can make causal inferences. With those causal inferences we can perhaps test them by attempting to control the process, again controlled observations are the only way we can confirm that we are controlling the process. Some processes unfortunately are just not given to our ability to control and cosmological processes account for a lot of them. Sorry, if that is a fact that you are simply not willing to accept, you’re going to have a hard time convincing anyone that you take any cosmology seriously. You seem to want to put the cart before the horse claiming the need for controlled experiments under conditions and scales that we simple can not control. Unfortunately that would leave us extremely limited and eliminate countless fields of study including cosmology. Controlled observations (not specifically controlled experiments) are the principle foundation of science, without them there are no (or literally no way to perform or confirm) controlled experiments.
 
The Higgs condensate *is* composed of Higgs bosons and the density is determined by the number/volume like any other condensate.

Nope. There are different kinds of condensates, a fact that has been pointed out to you repeatedly and which you haven't yet grasped. The Higgs condensate, unlike a Bose-Einstein condensate, is Lorentz invariant - do you have any clue what that means? Its density is not defined (and cannot be defined) as a number density, because number densities are not Lorentz invariant.

The rest of your claims are gibberish, and this is obvious bsaed on the fact you can't demonstrate your claim empirically in any possible way.

Really? And can you demonstrate your claims about Higgs particles and their relationship to the condensate in an empirical way? No, of course you can't: until we find the Higgs particle, it's still only theoretical, and so might not exist at all. Since it's still in the realm of theory only, there can be no empirical demonstration of anything by any of us on this board. All there can be is a correct and and incorrect understanding of the theory (with the correctness of the theory itself being a completely different question). And you, clearly, do not understand the theory. You would have done far better to claim the theory is wrong, or unconvincing, or untested, rather than to attack it with so little evident understanding of its meaning. But you have managed to convey one piece of information rather successfully: your hypocrisy when it comes to standards of evidence is plain for all to see.
 
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