Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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And again, you have not offered counter to DM, part of CDM.
Why should I? I certainly believe that we grossly underestimate the mass in many galaxies, and I'm sure MACHO forms of "dark matter" exist in nature. As long as you aren't stuffing hypothetical SUSY particles in there, I'll let you use "dark matter" in the form of MACHO forms of dark matter, neutrinos, etc.

So you don't like it.

Big whoop, it is hypothsized that there are partciles that don't interact except through the gravitational force. that is DM.

Those properties of invisibility sound like more dogma to me. Got any such 'dark matter" that doesn't interact directly with light, or did you just mean neutrinos?

I know you won't answer.

Of course I'll answer. I really don't doubt we underestimate the mass of a galaxy in many instances and I'm sure there is mass that is not accounted for in such galaxies. I don't have any believe in SUSY theory however, but there are some known forms of mass I will let you use as well, like neutrinos for instance.

How do you explain the rotation curves?

I guess I'm in the camp of the missing mass option group.

You won't because you can't. Pretty obvious, and again another disappointment. The darn theory (PC) has merit especialyy in the early universe (where the scales and energies would make plasma a dominant force.)
You do not address the fact that DM addresses MM, the rotation curves of galaxies. It is an issue in the observable universe and like the spectrum of the CMB you avoid it. No wonder.

I don't avoid anything. I explain what I can explain using known forces of nature and I admit when I can't explain something. Unlike Guth I don't just play make believe with math formulas.

And objects other than galaxies as well. DM is a hypothesis,
1. What is a better explanation for the rotation curve issue?

Let me be clear here. I have no problem allowing you to stuff the gaps of your missing galactic mass with neutrinos and MACHO forms of "dark matter". If you start stuffing the gaps of your missing mass with SUSY particles I will of course expect you to provide physical (not mathematical) evidence of their existence in nature. The term "dark matter' has changed a great deal over the years. In my day it referred to simply matter we could not yet identify, not necessarily anything related to SUSY theory.
 
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Reasonable Ideas

Specifically, is it your contention that these things a "pure woo" because they cannot be replicated in controlled laboratory experiments? Is/are there any other reason(s), or is the lack of controlled laboratory experiments the one & only reason?
No, it's not the *only* reason, but the fact I can never even hope to *ever* demonstrate inflation puts the idea into the realm of "pure faith".
Already I disagree. It is not at all proper to refer to inflation as "pure" faith, or even "impure" faith. Rather, inflation is a perfectly reasonable empirical assumption in the classical tradition os science.

Remember, big bang cosmology is a theory firmly grounded in observation (i.e., Hubble, 1929; Sandage, 1972 & the 9 further parts referenced; Signore & Denis, 2002; Zhu, Fujimolto & He, 2004; Ostriker & Souradeep, 2004; Sanders, 2005, just a few examples from thousands of papers). There are alternative cosmologies to be sure, but none that are able to maintain consistency with the broad scope of observation with the quality of big bang cosmology. The point is that, like it or not, big bang cosmology is a perfectly reasonable principle with strong observational credentials.

Inflation comes in response to the Horizon Problem in basic big bang cosmology. We demand of all theories that they must be consistent with the fundamental laws of physics, until we have good reason to adopt new fundamental laws, or modify the old ones. Inflation was not arbitrary, it is a modification to the basic theory which guarantees that big bang cosmology will be consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The introduction of inflation makes it easy to understand how the infant universe can have nearly the same temperature everywhere.

In my specific case, my disenchantment began with Guth's addition of inflation to the idea, but the real disgust came with the complete "invention' of "dark energy" ...
Here too I disagree with your sentiments. I have already shown that there is nothing arbitrary or unreasonable about the introduction of inflation. But to call dark energy a "complete invention" is seriously unreasonable. One need only consult Riess, et al., 1998 and Perlmutter, et al., 1999. An acceleration of the expansion of the universe explains the observations. Dark energy is nothing but the name given to the unidentified cause for the acceleration. Far from "pure invention" or "arbitrary", an accelerated expansion is the simplest explanation for the observed departure from the expected redshift distance relationship.

... and then the final piece for me was "dark matter" going SUSY theory, a *NON* standard branch of particle physics theory.
And here too I think your reaction is not reasonable. So what if SUSY is non-standard? If standard explanations don't work (and so far the evidence rather strongly shows that they do not) then what's wrong with something non-standard? And exactly how "non-standard" is SUSY, really? While supersymmetry remains unverified by experiment, it is certainly not unverifiable. And if one accepts the need for a quantum theory of gravity, then supersymmetry is crucial to provide both fermions & bosons. Supersymmetry is in fact ubiquitous in particle physics today (i.e., Berger, et al., 2009; Ehrenfeld, 2008; Shima & Tsuda, 2008) and was recognized as a valuable tool in quantizing general relativity as soon as it was discovered (i.e., Deser & Zumino, 1976).

So emphasizing the "non-standard" nature os an idea that has already been deeply intwined in theoretical physics for over 30 years seems like a stretch to me. And decrying the use of non-standard tools seems anti-scientific to me as well. We do not simply and arbitrarily appeal to supersymmetric solutions to the dark matter puzzle. Rather, we appeal to such (old) ideas only after exhaustive efforts have shown that more mundane and ordinary ideas simply fail the test. That is exactly when we should, and indeed must appeal to non-standard ideas, or at least the less tried ideas. That's how we learn new things, not by sticking to old ideas, but by appealing to new ideas.

The final straw came on April 16th 2005 while watching SOHO images and realizing that those coronal loops were large electrical discharges in the solar atmosphere. From there it was pretty much over.
One might ask how you managed to realize this. But more to the immediate point, one might ask what solar flares have to do with dark matter and dark energy in cosmology?

The "dark energy" thing was really the "biggie" for me for the reasons that Perpetual Student mentioned. The insertion of DE was pure "ad hoc", and it's ramifications on QM were almost not even considered before the papers on Nereid's the inflation deity's new "dark energy" superpowers were being added to her list of supernatural qualities.
Well, I have already covered much of this. No, it was not at all "ad hoc". And I don't know what you mean by "its ramifications on QM", since the idea came from QM in the first place, so the "ramifications" should go the other way.


Now let me summarize my own views. Neither dark matter nor dark energy nor inflation are in any way "ad hoc", "invention" & etc. All 3 are in fact perfectly reasonable ideas, and are in fact all 3 the simplest and most straight forward solutions to problems encountered in both observation and theory. But one should note that while these obvious & simple ideas are the most popular, they are by no means unchallenged. Joao Magueijo's variable speed of light cosmology was developed specifically as an alternative to inflation (i.e., Albrecht & Magueijo, 1999 & citations thereto). And both dark matter and dark energy might be done away with entirely simply by slightly altering the form of the laws of gravity. Although the results seem to as yet lack broad applicability, there is much work being done here too (i.e., Milgrom, 1983a; http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1983ApJ...270..384MMilgrom, 1983b[/url] and citations thereto).
 
You seem to be conflating astronomy with cosmology. They are not synonymous.
Actually, MM not only conflates astronomy with cosmology, he has all but said they are synonymous.

Other MM synonyms:

cosmology = astrophysics (in all cases it could go the other way, e.g. 'astrophysics = cosmology')

'space science/physics' = cosmology

geophysics = cosmology

"EU theory" = application of GR + MHD

cosmology = EU theory

"EU/PC theory" = whatever Birkeland wrote

"EU theory" = "Plasma Cosmology" (but only MM's definition of that, not Lerner's, not Alfvén's, not Peratt's, not ...)

Oh, with one caveat ... all of the above must include only "*demonstrable physics*" (the definition of this phrase, in a manner consistent with MM's posts in this part of the JREF Forum is left up to the reader).

Why would you expect solar winds or coronal loops to tell you anything about cosmology?
Because, as I have just explained, to MM "solar winds or coronal loops" are just as much a part of cosmology as are observations of the redshifts of galaxies and quasars. In fact, in light of the clear emphasis on "real experiments" with "controls", and the identities (a.k.a. synonyms) I listed above, the former are considerably more important parts of cosmology than the latter.
 
I did not design my comments to be polarising, so thank you for pointing out that they came across to you that way. I shall try harder to avoid creating this perception in future.

Can I ask for your help please? If you see that my comments are polarising, would you mind pointing that fact out to me please?


It certainly is a strong statement, isn't it?


May I ask you to say a few words on why you felt the list to be impressive?


OK, thanks, I will.

The statement concludes with these words:

Now I don't know about you, but to me this seems a little disingenuous.

Why?

Firstly, because today almost all astronomical observations are either in the public domain from the get to (e.g. many of the large surveys), or become available within a relatively short period of time (typically a year). This public availability is, I think, a mandate for observations obtained using certain sources of funds from one or other US government agencies.

Second, because the tools needed to analyse such data, to create and run simulations, and so on are extremely cheap - compare the processing power of an average PC today with that of an IBM mainframe of only a few decade ago, for example, or look at what MHDEnzo can do compared with Perrat's PIC simulations (yes, Perrat is a signatory to this statement).

Third, check out the number of proposals that the initial signatories made, for time on the Hubble Space Telescope for example, or the ATNF. If you can't find any answers, why not email some of these people and ask them if they'd be kind enough to tell you?

So what is it, exactly, that the signatories want to do? It seems to me they want to be given money to do research. And what research do they propose to do, exactly? In the case of Arp and maybe one or two others, I could probably guess. But what research "into alternative theories and observational contradictions of the big bang" would Jacques Moret-Bailly or Timothy Eastman (to take two of the signatories at random) propose to do?

If you're interested, maybe we could go over some other parts of the statement, to see just how much meat there is in it.
Bump.

PS, did you read this response of mine? If so, I'd sure appreciate some feedback.
 
Already I disagree. It is not at all proper to refer to inflation as "pure" faith, or even "impure" faith. Rather, inflation is a perfectly reasonable empirical assumption in the classical tradition os science.

Welcome to the discussion Tim. Empirical assumption? My isn't that some fancy political spin doctoring with the English language? :) LOL!

There is no such thing as an empirical assumption. Either you can demonstrate it empirically, or not. There's no in between. In this case it cannot ever be demonstrated empirically because presumably it no longer exists or has any affect on nature. It's an act of pure faith because it cannot *ever* be tested. It's actually more pure than most religions because there is *never* even any hope of it ever being empirically demonstrated, nor any particular reward for putting one's faith in the idea. It's definitely a "pure" form of faith.

Remember, big bang cosmology is a theory firmly grounded in observation

It is grounded in observation of redshifted photons. You *assume* that is due to expansion. Even then I posted a paper related to expansion that demonstrates that this redshift pattern is not necessarily related to superluminal expansion.

There are alternative cosmologies to be sure, but none that are able to maintain consistency with the broad scope of observation with the quality of big bang cosmology.

Even I entertain the idea of a "big bang" cosmology, just not the one you believe in, and not one with "inflation" or any forms of "dark energy". You'll have to be more specific. What's wrong with Alfven's brand of a "big bang" theory?

The point is that, like it or not, big bang cosmology is a perfectly reasonable principle with strong observational credentials.

Ok, but how does that demonstrate inflation or dark energy or SUSY particles?

Inflation comes in response to the Horizon Problem in basic big bang cosmology. We demand of all theories that they must be consistent with the fundamental laws of physics, until we have good reason to adopt new fundamental laws, or modify the old ones. Inflation was not arbitrary, it is a modification to the basic theory which guarantees that big bang cosmology will be consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The introduction of inflation makes it easy to understand how the infant universe can have nearly the same temperature everywhere.

A mature universe can also have nearly the same temperature everywhere. That's not much of an explanation, nor is that a valid reason to stuff the gaps of our ignorance with inflation and "dark" things.

Here too I disagree with your sentiments. I have already shown that there is nothing arbitrary or unreasonable about the introduction of inflation.

You didn't show that, you made a statement of faith about it. It was totally arbitrary. No other branch of science was working on inflation. It isn't necessary or observed in any branch of science prior to Guth, not even to big bang theories of the time. It was purely an ad hoc creation from one or two individuals.

But to call dark energy a "complete invention" is seriously unreasonable.

Oh come on!

One need only consult Riess, et al., 1998 and Perlmutter, et al., 1999. An acceleration of the expansion of the universe explains the observations. Dark energy is nothing but the name given to the unidentified cause for the acceleration.

So your theory isn't actually an "explanation" at all, now is it? You didn't identify any causes, and the only reason you put it in there was to save your otherwise falsified inflation theory. If they have predicted inflation still existed for instance, maybe they may have 'predicted' acceleration. Since if failed to accurately predict acceleration, the gaps were stuffed with words of no value or meaning.

Far from "pure invention" or "arbitrary", an accelerated expansion is the simplest explanation for the observed departure from the expected redshift distance relationship.

Who defines "simplest" and is "simplest" always the best answer? You do realize DE won't survive an Occum's razor argument right? You'll end up defending a metaphysically kludged variation of EU/PC theory if you aren't careful Tim. :)
http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.1970

And here too I think your reaction is not reasonable. So what if SUSY is non-standard?

So now I'm supposed to put faith in *non standard* version of particle physics, just to prop up your otherwise falsified theory? How many limbs do I have to go out on, and how many pure leaps of faith must I make to join this religion?

If standard explanations don't work (and so far the evidence rather strongly shows that they do not) then what's wrong with something non-standard?

In that case, "God did it" must also then be considered a "scientific answer" for a lot of things. The fact we can't explain something is no reason to create something ad hoc to fill in those gaps.

And exactly how "non-standard" is SUSY, really?

It's "non-standard" because none of it's theorized particles show up in a lab. I guess that's why you guys are drawn to the idea like flies eh? :)

While supersymmetry remains unverified by experiment, it is certainly not unverifiable.

True. SUSY theory isn't "woo", whereas inflation is pure woo. Woo cannot ever be found or falsified in an actual experiment. Therefore SUSY theory isn't woo. Inflation is woo because if it ever existed, it conveniently went away forever, never to be seen again.

So emphasizing the "non-standard" nature os an idea that has already been deeply intwined in theoretical physics for over 30 years seems like a stretch to me. And decrying the use of non-standard tools seems anti-scientific to me as well. We do not simply and arbitrarily appeal to supersymmetric solutions to the dark matter puzzle. Rather, we appeal to such (old) ideas only after exhaustive efforts have shown that more mundane and ordinary ideas simply fail the test. That is exactly when we should, and indeed must appeal to non-standard ideas, or at least the less tried ideas. That's how we learn new things, not by sticking to old ideas, but by appealing to new ideas.

Even granting you that SUSY theory is the least objectionable of your unseen trilogy, you've now got no less that three different types of unseen things in your theory! You don't find that a bit objectionable or questionable? Not only do you have to be right on the SUSY thing, you have to hope your dark energy doesn't turn out to be EM fields after all, or your Lambda theory will end up predicting electric suns. :)

One might ask how you managed to realize this. But more to the immediate point, one might ask what solar flares have to do with dark matter and dark energy in cosmology?

Nothing. DE and inflation definitely have nothing to do with cosmology because they don't exist. EM fields do exist and they have the effect you see on our sun. Birkeland demonstrated this and you now know it.

Well, I have already covered much of this. No, it was not at all "ad hoc". And I don't know what you mean by "its ramifications on QM", since the idea came from QM in the first place, so the "ramifications" should go the other way.

QM was fine 20 years ago before DE. You then change the mixture of the galaxy and add 75% of something you can't identify and it has no affect on QM?

There's no point in duplicating the rest of the discussion below. Look at it from a skeptics point of view here Tim. You industry can't figure out solar wind. It can't figure out coronal loops or jets or any of the things Birkeland actually "predicted" based on actual experimentation. You reject the whole idea of an electric sun even though his work showed a cause/effect relationship between current flow and surface to heliosphere discharges and these events.

You then turn right around and put faith in three different "hypothesis" to band-aid together a "theory" that is 96% "hypothesized entity" and 4% physics? You're too smart to try to defend this choice forever Tim.
 
That is a strong statement and an impressive list of people. Many of the signatories are physicists, cosmologists and people with other strong scientific credentials. I find that quite an attention getting development and very compelling. Do any of MM's adversaries have anything to say about that statement and its signatories?
I've given several answers to PS' question, after first prefacing my replies with something along the lines of "I'm not sure if I am to be counted among the ranks of MM's adversaries".

Here's yet another reply.

If we look at the 34 original signatories, what do we find*?

First, there are the Steady State stalwarts, such as Bondi and Narlikar. It's rather odd for any of them to say this class of theories has not 'had its day in court', given the intense scrutiny of such theories in the not too distant past.

Then there's Arp. With the explicit exclusion of Gold and Bondi, I suspect that he has more papers published in relevant, peer-reviewed astronomy and astrophysics journals than all the others in the list combined. Too, he's had many grad students to work with him on his pet projects, over the years. By all accounts he is the perfect gentleman of manners ... and yet he still cannot see just how flawed so much of his research is. How to judge a fervent believer in his own ideas, when those ideas have so comprehensively been shown to be inconsistent with all the relevant data?

There are also (in addition to the above) several people who have at least one paper on astronomy (etc) published in a relevant peer-reviewed journal: Baryshev, Marziani, Paturel, and Rudnicki (though only one, that I could find).

There are the two stalwarts of Plasma Cosmology, Lerner and Peratt, who have not - as far as I know - published anything in relevant peer-reviewed journals ('relevant' in this context means 'astronomy, cosmology, and astrophysics').

Two - Ibison and Roscoe - have papers published on topics of direct relevance to cosmology (GR and MOND, respectively).

There are four plasma/space physicists (Eastmann, Heikkila, Jarboe, Orth), one 'other physics' guy (Moret-Bailly), an engineer (not EE, Ghosh), an Earth scientist (Kafatos), a chemist (Pace), a historian (Woodward), four I can't quite classify (Assis, Marmet, Neves, Soares), .... and eight who seem to have no published papers in science at all!

Now what conclusion may we draw from such a list, especially the fact that so few of the people on it have mastered contemporary astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology sufficiently well to have had papers published (in relevant, peer-reviewed journals)? Is the bar to writing and publishing such a paper so high?

We can also ask whether this claim is credible: "Supporters of the big bang theory may retort that these theories do not explain every cosmological observation. But that is scarcely surprising, as their development has been severely hampered by a complete lack of funding." Well, it's certainly not a lack of funding that holding back the Steady State proponents! After all, many of the remaining proponents have tenured positions in well-funded universities (and how much more prestigious can you get than the Max-Planck-Institute Für Astrophysik?).

But perhaps the best illustration of how shallow this statement is comes from the reception that an alternative not explicitly listed got, MOND. I don't see any MOND proponents in the list of initial signatories (other than Roscoe). Yet MOND, as an alternative, is both newer than Steady State or Plasma Cosmology ones, and more widely accepted. Are we to believe then, per this statement, that MOND is mainstream? Or that it is not an alternative?

Or is it something as mundane as the ability of MOND proponents to write papers that meet the basic criteria for acceptance (by the relevant peer-reviewed journals), and so catch the attention of quite a few astronomers, who then go research the idea, and write yet more papers?

In short, the statement is curiously silent on what is perhaps the most important reason that the two explicitly named alternatives have failed to get any traction ... none of the proponents has been able to write a paper showing why those ideas are better - in any scientific way - than any LCDM cosmological models.

* critical caveat: these are the results of my own analyses, which are quite preliminary and may well contain errors. If you find any, please point them out.
 
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I've given several answers to PS' question, after first prefacing my replies with something along the lines of "I'm not sure if I am to be counted among the ranks of MM's adversaries".

Hmmm.

Here's yet another reply.

If we look at the 34 original signatories, what do we find*?

We find you again attacking the credibility of the individual rather than defending your own theory with empirical evidence. It is because you can't do the later that you are forced to do the former. It's getting old.

confused.gif


If you aren't my adversary on this issue, why are you going after the credibility of the signatories instead of just acknowledging their criticism? Talk about mixed messages.
jaw-dropping.gif
 
These are quite specious arguments. Gravity (Einstein or Newton -- take your pick) is a foundational theory of physics. The same is true of Maxwell's equations and all subsequent QED theories.
Several folk have already addressed this post of yours, PS, including DD himself.

However, there's one aspect (at least!) that hasn't been commented on yet.

Here's the question that MM agreed to answer, again (I have added some bold):

"Can you, MM, empirically demonstrate that gravity and EM fields exist in nature, in a controlled experiment, regardless of what opinions I, DRD, might have on these subjects?"

That qualification - "regardless of what opinions I, DRD, might have on these subjects" - is critical.

The question, as asked, is loaded with many aspects fundamental to the whole enterprise of science, such as consistency of (key) terms, definition of (key) terms, and logic.

My response - calling what MM says is 'gravity' 'inflation', rejecting his entire 'EM fields' experiment because he did not use that exact term - may seem flippant, but it goes to the heart of what I think is the gulf between MM and most (all?) other participants in this discussion.

Namely, a lack of common agreement on the meanings of key words used in this discussion. There are a great many examples of this, but perhaps RC's recent post (that I responded to) will serve to illustrate what I mean.

You see, MM certainly does not use key words in the same way as (almost) everyone else - look at the wasted bandwidth on his misunderstanding of GR, for example. That alone all but guarrantees disagreement and frustration.

But more fundamentally, MM's own use of key words is inconsistent; at one time, for example, "EU theory" means "the essential content of Birkeland's works", at another it means "the application of MHD and GR", at yet another it is essentially meaningless, and it also has been used to mean "all of astronomy, astrophysics, space science, and much of geophysics too".

Many people have twigged to this inconsistency as it relates to "empirical" or "controlled experiment"; however, I think few have yet realised that it is consistent feature of almost all the key words he uses.

In short, to the extent that science requires both clear definition of key terms and consistency in their use, what MM writes is ascientific. As a consequence, no meaningful discussion is possible.

Asking MM to demonstrate the existence these phenomena as some sort of test that is supposed to equate to the (quite hypothetical) existence of DE and inflation is so much sophistry.
The only thing I'd like to add to what has already been posted is that "DE", in the form of lambda, is part of GR ... so, by definition, it is gravity.

MM's complaint is that DE and inflation cannot be demonstrated in a lab. He is correct, but his complaint has no merit since there exist a multitude of astronomical phenomena that cannot be duplicated in a lab, which nevertheless have a strong scientific basis.
Including, as has been pointed out, many of the things MM has been quite passionate (shall we say) about ... for example, he is co-author of a published paper whose key content concerns neutron stars; curiously, he has not addressed the question of how one can go from 'observations' of neutrons in a controlled experiment in a lab here on Earth to accepting the existence, "in nature" of neutron stars.

Myself, I suspect that one reason why (he has not done so) is because the concrete steps in such a demonstration could be easily repeated ... to demonstrate the existence, "in nature" of CDM (non-baryonic DM), to take one example.

The current prevailing theory of gravity could possible be modified or amplified some day to some small degree; but it is not going to be overturned. However, it is still possible that DE will be overturned by a new approach coming from new observations.

[...]
Do you realise just how dramatically different 'gravity' is, in GR, from Newtonian 'gravity'? I mean, how different can geometry be from a force?

Surely the point is that whatever replaces GR, or however it is extended, it must do at least as good a job of accounting for all the experimental and observations results that GR accounts for.

Oh, and "DE" has at least two consistent meanings ... one is purely empirical (pace MM), a shorthand for 'the net of relevant SNe Ia, BAO, and CMB observations'; the other is 'lambda, the cosmological constant, in the EFE'. In either meaning, your statement is at best confusing.
 
[...]
DeiRenDopa said:
Here's yet another reply.

If we look at the 34 original signatories, what do we find*?
We find you again attacking the credibility of the individual rather than defending your own theory with empirical evidence. It is because you can't do the later that you are forced to do the former. It's getting old.

[...]
Thanks for this.

I think it was Tubbythin who pointed to the 'debating tactics' that you seem to both enjoy using and deploy with such frequency (if not skill).

Shall we refresh our collective memories of what I was responding to?

Here is what PS wrote:
That is a strong statement and an impressive list of people. Many of the signatories are physicists, cosmologists and people with other strong scientific credentials. I find that quite an attention getting development and very compelling. Do any of MM's adversaries have anything to say about that statement and its signatories?
(bold added)

Now I certainly addressed the signatories, did I not?

And I certainly addressed at least part of the content, did I not, in an earlier post?

And I invited PS to say whether he'd (she'd?) be interested in a more detailed discussion of that content, did I not?

So, am I "attacking the [scientific] credibility of the individual"? Yes ... that's the whole point! :mad:

"rather than defending your own theory with empirical evidence"?

Dude, I have news for you: I have not once stated, either in this thread or any other in the JREF Forum, what my "own theory" is!! :mad: I have not even hinted that I have any such!!! :mad::mad::mad:

You say "It's getting old". Yes, I agree that this form of discussion is indeed getting old ... nearly time, I think, for me to leave ...
 
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You're still out on a limb here IMO. These studies also included some type of physical "control/change" that was relatively easy to define. For instance, from you second Wiki link:

An example of a natural experiment occurred in Helena, Montana during the period from June 2002 to December 2002 when a smoking ban was in effect in all public spaces in Helena including bars and restaurants. Helena is geographically isolated and served by only one hospital. It was observed that the rate of heart attacks dropped by 60% while the smoking ban was in effect. [1]

The smoking ban would be a physical equivalent of a control mechanism in such a case, and even in this case the results are "questionable".

Not all medical experiments can use a placebo though, in some cases it would be unethical, or impossible to control. You can't setup a "control" country in sociology. You can have a control group, but that's a natural experiment because you're trying to account for variables and isolate for a desired phenomenon.

Sure, but the point is that there is something here that is physically unique between one set and the other. Again, we have physically different circumstances to compare. We know what factors are different between one set of data and the other.

It's a common creationist outcry that you can't show common descent in a lab. You can't reproduce geological events in a lab.

Yes, and it's a common atheists cry that "belief" is either supported by empirical evidence or it is an act of faith. There never can be empirical evidence of inflation therefore it must forever be an act of faith.

Yes yes I know you're going to say but those are "real" things and that inflation is magic. Sol already covered that.

Sol did a handwave thing and ignored every paper I offered him, on two different topics. Let's see you demonstrate this density property exists in a "demonstrated" particle/field, not a "theorized" one that is totally open to interpretation.

So I would disagree about the experimental support, based on my defining a natural experiment as an experiment.

You would still require a control group, and physically unique situations to make this claim. Since you can't do that here, there is not a 'natural experiment' in play. It's simply a pure observation of distant events and there is nothing to use as a control device because humans aren't involved in those processes.

I think you're still confusing a "controlled/semi controlled experiment" with a pure observation. What is the "control" mechanism you intend to use in space? Considering that Lambda theory keeps morphing, is there even a NULL hypothesis?
 
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I think this is a true reflection of this whole issue. The possibility exists that the mainstream is wrong, but I have no doubt that when better evidence is presented, they will make the neccesary adjustments.
I see that you followed this by referencing Feyerabend ... may I ask if you think there have been any Kuhnian revolutions in physics, over the last handful of centuries?

Specifically, to what extent do you consider replacing the leading (only viable) theory of 'gravity' - as a force - with one in which it is 'merely' geometry a 'necessary adjustment'?

IMO, this thread is moving towards anarchistic theory of knowledge in Feyerabend's "Against Method" and belongs in the religion and philosophy section.:D

[...]
So, may I ask how you would answer the question in this thread's title: "Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?"
 
[...]

By the way EU/PC theory has a BB theory of it's own and Alfvens's big bang theory is a *lot* more acceptable to me than yours. It's not "perfect" of course, but it's not unfalsifiable like Lambda theory.

[...]
In what ways is "Alfvens's big bang theory" falsifiable?

Specifically, what experiments and/or observations could one make - using any, or any combination of, today's labs/experimental facilities/observatories/space-based instrument - that could, in principle, falsify it?
 
FYI, you seem to be sending a lot of mixed messages. If you aren't trying to defend Lambda-CDM theory, or the inflation hypothesis, your line of questioning and commentary seems hard to explain.

There's no particular reason to focus on who happens to be on that list and categorize them in detail like that. The only reason I even cited that list in the first place is because you suggested that only *I* seemed to think that Lambda-CDM theory was flawed. It's not a personal sort of "skepticism" on my part in the first place, and that was why I cited the list for you. The specific breakdown of that list isn't even relevant to my point. Your motivation for breaking it down like that was something far beyond my original intent of citing that list in the first place. It also says nothing about the actual criticisms, nor does it address them. What's your point?
 
[...]

The mainstream would love me to attempt to compete with their inflation deity, but of course that is pointless. No one can compete with a supernatural deity who's abilities change with every observation that would normally have falsified any other scientific model. In the case of the inflation deity, she simply gets new superpowers of "dark energy" and away they go again......

I'm *way* (a lot) more interested in being able to explain events inside of our solar system. I'm comfortable that EU/PC theory is based entirely upon pure empirical physics and it has useful predictive value as it relates to events inside the solar system.

The mainstream is so fixated on their dead deity and they are so afraid of EU theory that they refuse to embrace any part of it for fear that their whole show will start to fall apart. Real physical forces are driving that solar wind they can't explain. It's not "inflation" or "dark energy". It's *electricity* and charge separation/attraction that causes the solar wind to accelerate. I know this because I've seen it demonstrated in a lab by a guy from 100 years ago. It took the mainstream 60 years to give up their faith in Chapman's math formulas and recognize the usefulness of Birkeland's auroral theories. At the rate they are going it will take them 100 more years to figure out solar wind. I'll be dead by then. Why should I wait around for them to get with the program only because they love their dead deity? They now want to judge everything in science based on a creation event they can't justify without simply "making up" properties that they assigned to their deity, just like any other religious cult! The worst part is that they teach this brand of "faith" in school and call it "science".
(bold added)

I don't know who, or what, this "mainstream" is, but I personally would like you to do what I suggested in an earlier post ... put said mainstream out of its misery by writing a paper, based on Birkeland's work, that explains the things about coronal loops, solar wind acceleration, etc that you think said who/what finds so mystifying, and put it up on your website. If it's as good as you have been so loudly declaring it is, it should be fairly straight-forward for me, together with some other folk who've posted to this thread, to edit it (in minor ways), submit it to a relevant peer-reviewed journal, and await the phone call from Stockholm.

How about it? Why waste time and effort writing posts that convince no one, when you could be drafting something that would make Einstein look like a dunce? Surely the most potent blow you could deal to "the mainstream" would be to put fingers to keyboard and show us all what is apparently so blindingly obvious to you?
 
In what ways is "Alfvens's big bang theory" falsifiable?

Well, for one thing I think he used the wrong solar model. Birkeland's is better IMO. There are many details related to this issue I could get into, but it's not really related to this thread. Suffice to say he made predictions *inside* the solar system based on these cosmology theories that can be verified and/or falsified.

Specifically, what experiments and/or observations could one make - using any, or any combination of, today's labs/experimental facilities/observatories/space-based instrument - that could, in principle, falsify it?

If there had been no solar wind found in space, that would have falsified it, but like Guth, Alfven already knew that this condition existed. His first key "prediction" that relates to cosmology/connectivity with the universe would be his belief that the sun is a unipolar inductor with current flow inward at the poles. I frankly don't see much evidence of inward flow anywhere, not even near the poles.

How can I falsify any part of the inflation hypothesis or the dark energy hypothesis?
 
(bold added)

I don't know who, or what, this "mainstream" is, but I personally would like you to do what I suggested in an earlier post ... put said mainstream out of its misery by writing a paper, based on Birkeland's work, that explains the things about coronal loops, solar wind acceleration, etc that you think said who/what finds so mystifying, and put it up on your website.

I already provide a link to Birkeland's whole volume of work on my website. If they won't believe his extensive work with terellas and his presentation, what makes you think one paper from me is going to make any difference?

If it's as good as you have been so loudly declaring it is, it should be fairly straight-forward for me, together with some other folk who've posted to this thread, to edit it (in minor ways), submit it to a relevant peer-reviewed journal, and await the phone call from Stockholm.
Er, they'd give a Nobel to some guy that rides Birkeland's coattails and is himself 100 years late to the party? Wow, what a "discovery' I made by actually reading Birkeland's work. :)

How about it? Why waste time and effort writing posts that convince no one, when you could be drafting something that would make Einstein look like a dunce?

You folks must be required to minor in strawman arguments.

Surely the most potent blow you could deal to "the mainstream" would be to put fingers to keyboard and show us all what is apparently so blindingly obvious to you?

Birkeland did me one better already. Have you bothered to even read his work?

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/birkeland.pdf
 
FYI, you seem to be sending a lot of mixed messages. If you aren't trying to defend Lambda-CDM theory, or the inflation hypothesis, your line of questioning and commentary seems hard to explain.
To: MM
From: DRD
Re: This thread.

MM,

I have already said, at least twice, that the question posed in the title of this thread was answered, in the negative, by around the end of the first page ... "Lambda-CDM theory" is not (scientific) woo.

Consequently - logically - the only question of interest that remains is why you, MM, think it is.

I have tried three different, but somewhat related, approaches to obtain an answer to that question.

My current working hypothesis is that your use of language is so incoherent, and so inconsistent, that it is not possible to have a meaningful discussion with you.

Or, saying this in another way, your approach is fundamentally ascientific.

Am I making myself clear?

Regards,
DeiRenDopa
There's no particular reason to focus on who happens to be on that list and categorize them in detail like that. The only reason I even cited that list in the first place is because you suggested that only *I* seemed to think that Lambda-CDM theory was flawed. It's not a personal sort of "skepticism" on my part in the first place, and that was why I cited the list for you. The specific breakdown of that list isn't even relevant to my point. Your motivation for breaking it down like that was something far beyond my original intent of citing that list in the first place. It also says nothing about the actual criticisms, nor does it address them. What's your point?
See above.

You raise an interesting point: to what extent have the "observational contradictions of the big bang", to quote the statement, been stated and discussed? One answer is: extensively ... the first ~28 pages of the Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not thread contains much discussion of what at least three members thought were such contradictions.

As far as I can tell, you yourself have not said much of such "observational contradictions"; may I ask why?
 
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That is a strong statement and an impressive list of people. Many of the signatories are physicists, cosmologists and people with other strong scientific credentials. I find that quite an attention getting development and very compelling. Do any of MM's adversaries have anything to say about that statement and its signatories?

Alright. After reading through it again I think I see where you're coming from on this point. Perhaps I was bit overzealous there in my response. I'm still puzzled about why you personally decided to respond to that particular question. What's the motive behind that?
 
DeiRenDopa said:
In what ways is "Alfvens's big bang theory" falsifiable?
Well, for one thing I think he used the wrong solar model. Birkeland's is better IMO.
So, Birkeland falsified "Alfvens's big bang theory" before Alfvén even wrote it?

There are many details related to this issue I could get into, but it's not really related to this thread. Suffice to say he made predictions *inside* the solar system based on these cosmology theories that can be verified and/or falsified.
For example?

And have these "*inside* the solar system" predictions been falsified or verified? If not, why not? And what would it take to do either (or the ones not yet f or v)?

Specifically, what experiments and/or observations could one make - using any, or any combination of, today's labs/experimental facilities/observatories/space-based instrument - that could, in principle, falsify it?
If there had been no solar wind found in space, that would have falsified it, but like Guth, Alfven already knew that this condition existed. His first key "prediction" that relates to cosmology/connectivity with the universe would be his belief that the sun is a unipolar inductor with current flow inward at the poles. I frankly don't see much evidence of inward flow anywhere, not even near the poles.
So, Alfvén's cosmological theory is rightly contained in file 13 then?

How can I falsify any part of the inflation hypothesis or the dark energy hypothesis?
Inflation:
1) demonstrate that the observable universe is not, in fact, isotropic and homogeneous on the largest scales (modulo a good quantitative version of this)
2) show conclusively that the CMB is not, in fact, cosmological (e.g. that it arises within ~100 Mpc of our galaxy)

DE: first you have to state what "the dark energy hypothesis" is; you can't falsify something that is not sufficiently precise ...
 
Do you realise just how dramatically different 'gravity' is, in GR, from Newtonian 'gravity'? I mean, how different can geometry be from a force?.

Of course.

Surely the point is that whatever replaces GR, or however it is extended, it must do at least as good a job of accounting for all the experimental and observations results that GR accounts for.

Surely!

Oh, and "DE" has at least two consistent meanings ... one is purely empirical (pace MM), a shorthand for 'the net of relevant SNe Ia, BAO, and CMB observations'; the other is 'lambda, the cosmological constant, in the EFE'. In either meaning, your statement is at best confusing.

How does that make my comment confusing? -- that it is possible that current theories about DE could be overturned? Please explain.
 
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DeiRenDopa said:
(bold added)

I don't know who, or what, this "mainstream" is, but I personally would like you to do what I suggested in an earlier post ... put said mainstream out of its misery by writing a paper, based on Birkeland's work, that explains the things about coronal loops, solar wind acceleration, etc that you think said who/what finds so mystifying, and put it up on your website.
I already provide a link to Birkeland's whole volume of work on my website. If they won't believe his extensive work with terellas and his presentation, what makes you think one paper from me is going to make any difference?

[...]
Well, I must say I wasn't expecting that! :eye-poppi

OK, I'll go refresh my memory of what you said about Birkeland and the power of his explanations concerning certain solar system phenomena and how they should be the foundation of a modern theory of cosmology.

When I've done that, I'll come back and ask you to explicitly state just what the Birkeland explanations are and how they can account - quantitatively - for all the relevant, modern, observations of those phenomena mentioned in your posts.

Fair enough?
 
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To: MM
From: DRD
Re: This thread.

MM,

I have already said, at least twice, that the question posed in the title of this thread was answered, in the negative,

Answered by whom? You? A few "faithful"? Did they empirically "predict" anything useful with inflation or show that it actually exists in nature?

Consequently - logically - the only question of interest that remains is why you, MM, think it is.

It would have been logical for you to attempt to demonstrate your point empirically. You never did that. Going after me isn't going to solve the inflation problem.

I have tried three different, but somewhat related, approaches to obtain an answer to that question.

I've explained myself over something like 15 pages now too. Haven't you been reading my posts?

My current working hypothesis is that your use of language is so incoherent, and so inconsistent, that it is not possible to have a meaningful discussion with you.

There you go again getting all personal. Yawn.

Or, saying this in another way, your approach is fundamentally ascientific.

My approach is fundamentally based in empirical physics. It most certainly is "scientific" and EM fields and gravity aren't shy around a lab.

Am I making myself clear?

Perfectly clear.

As far as I can tell, you yourself have not said much of such "observational contradictions"; may I ask why?

This thread has been of more interest to me and my time has been somewhat restricted. I have struggled just to keep up with on thread. If you have a "real" issue that you feel I need to look it, post it in that thread. I'll check it out. If you intend to simply list a bunch of postdictions related to inflation/DE I likely won't bother duplicating the same discussion twice. If however there is a key issue you'd like me to look at, I will but you will need to be specific.
 
Well, I must say I wasn't expecting that! :eye-poppi

OK, I'll go refresh my memory of what you said about Birkeland and the power of his explanations concerning certain solar system phenomena and how they should be the foundation of a modern theory of cosmology.

Pay attention to the *empirical experiments*. :)

When I've done that, I'll come back and ask you to explicitly state just what the Birkeland explanations are and how they can account - quantitatively - for all the relevant, modern, observations of those phenomena mentioned in your posts.

Fair enough?

Fair enough. I would however like you to explain *qualitatively* how he created continuous solar wind, created coronal loops and high speed plasma jets. What was the configuration of the sphere, the magnetic field inside the sphere and current flow configuration that achieved those specific "experimentally predicted" observations?
 
Perpetual Student said:
Do you realise just how dramatically different 'gravity' is, in GR, from Newtonian 'gravity'? I mean, how different can geometry be from a force?.
Of course.

Surely the point is that whatever replaces GR, or however it is extended, it must do at least as good a job of accounting for all the experimental and observations results that GR accounts for.

Surely!

Oh, and "DE" has at least two consistent meanings ... one is purely empirical (pace MM), a shorthand for 'the net of relevant SNe Ia, BAO, and CMB observations'; the other is 'lambda, the cosmological constant, in the EFE'. In either meaning, your statement is at best confusing.

How does that make my comment that current theories about DE could be overturned? Please explain.
Here is what I was responding to:
The current prevailing theory of gravity could possible be modified or amplified some day to some small degree; but it is not going to be overturned. However, it is still possible that DE will be overturned by a new approach coming from new observations.
(bold added)

If something as radically different as geometry (than a force) can overturn a current, prevailing theory of gravity once, why can't it happen again? What leads you to say that the only thing possible - wrt theories of gravity - is modification or amplification to some small degree?

If "DE" means the empirical shorthand, it cannot - by definition - "be overturned" ... by anything!

IF "DE" means lambda, then it is gravity (as in GR, the EFE, etc), and there is no (independent) "theory of DE" ... what would be overturned "by a new approach coming from new observations" would be the "current prevailing theory of gravity", which in the immediately preceding sentence you said "is not going to be overturned"!

As I said, confusing at best ...
 
I've given several answers to PS' question, after first prefacing my replies with something along the lines of "I'm not sure if I am to be counted among the ranks of MM's adversaries".

Here's yet another reply.

If we look at the 34 original signatories, what do we find*?

First, there are the Steady State stalwarts, such as Bondi and Narlikar. It's rather odd for any of them to say this class of theories has not 'had its day in court', given the intense scrutiny of such theories in the not too distant past.

Then there's Arp. With the explicit exclusion of Gold and Bondi, I suspect that he has more papers published in relevant, peer-reviewed astronomy and astrophysics journals than all the others in the list combined. Too, he's had many grad students to work with him on his pet projects, over the years. By all accounts he is the perfect gentleman of manners ... and yet he still cannot see just how flawed so much of his research is. How to judge a fervent believer in his own ideas, when those ideas have so comprehensively been shown to be inconsistent with all the relevant data?

There are also (in addition to the above) several people who have at least one paper on astronomy (etc) published in a relevant peer-reviewed journal: Baryshev, Marziani, Paturel, and Rudnicki (though only one, that I could find).

There are the two stalwarts of Plasma Cosmology, Lerner and Peratt, who have not - as far as I know - published anything in relevant peer-reviewed journals ('relevant' in this context means 'astronomy, cosmology, and astrophysics').

Two - Ibison and Roscoe - have papers published on topics of direct relevance to cosmology (GR and MOND, respectively).

There are four plasma/space physicists (Eastmann, Heikkila, Jarboe, Orth), one 'other physics' guy (Moret-Bailly), an engineer (not EE, Ghosh), an Earth scientist (Kafatos), a chemist (Pace), a historian (Woodward), four I can't quite classify (Assis, Marmet, Neves, Soares), .... and eight who seem to have no published papers in science at all!

Now what conclusion may we draw from such a list, especially the fact that so few of the people on it have mastered contemporary astronomy, astrophysics, and cosmology sufficiently well to have had papers published (in relevant, peer-reviewed journals)? Is the bar to writing and publishing such a paper so high?

We can also ask whether this claim is credible: "Supporters of the big bang theory may retort that these theories do not explain every cosmological observation. But that is scarcely surprising, as their development has been severely hampered by a complete lack of funding." Well, it's certainly not a lack of funding that holding back the Steady State proponents! After all, many of the remaining proponents have tenured positions in well-funded universities (and how much more prestigious can you get than the Max-Planck-Institute Für Astrophysik?).

But perhaps the best illustration of how shallow this statement is comes from the reception that an alternative not explicitly listed got, MOND. I don't see any MOND proponents in the list of initial signatories (other than Roscoe). Yet MOND, as an alternative, is both newer than Steady State or Plasma Cosmology ones, and more widely accepted. Are we to believe then, per this statement, that MOND is mainstream? Or that it is not an alternative?

Or is it something as mundane as the ability of MOND proponents to write papers that meet the basic criteria for acceptance (by the relevant peer-reviewed journals), and so catch the attention of quite a few astronomers, who then go research the idea, and write yet more papers?

In short, the statement is curiously silent on what is perhaps the most important reason that the two explicitly named alternatives have failed to get any traction ... none of the proponents has been able to write a paper showing why those ideas are better - in any scientific way - than any LCDM cosmological models.

* critical caveat: these are the results of my own analyses, which are quite preliminary and may well contain errors. If you find any, please point them out.

Thanks. I cannot easily confirm your comments about the signatories. I was able to find out a little about some of them on the Internet and they appeared to have credentials in physics, astronomy and cosmology. Accepting your analysis (provisionally), I would agree that my conclusion that the list was "impressive" was at best premature and at worst in error.
 
Alright. After reading through it again I think I see where you're coming from on this point. Perhaps I was bit overzealous there in my response. I'm still puzzled about why you personally decided to respond to that particular question. What's the motive behind that?
Did you miss PS' post(s) where he called me on my earlier response?
 
So, Birkeland falsified "Alfvens's big bang theory" before Alfvén even wrote it?

???? What's the point of answering your if all you intend to do is be twist my words like a pretzel?

So, Alfvén's cosmological theory is rightly contained in file 13 then?

Er no, just that part.

Inflation:
1) demonstrate that the observable universe is not, in fact, isotropic and homogeneous on the largest scales (modulo a good quantitative version of this)

Define the exact features (size) of a "hole" or a "dark flow" that would be massive enough to falsify it? Guth already knew it was a relatively uniform layout of matter.

2) show conclusively that the CMB is not, in fact, cosmological (e.g. that it arises within ~100 Mpc of our galaxy)

Based on the "holes" that have been found in the galaxy and WMAP data, it seems that this effect is likely to be caused by an "average" density being relatively constant. It should be up to you to demonstrate it must come from a surface of last scattering.

DE: first you have to state what "the dark energy hypothesis" is; you can't falsify something that is not sufficiently precise ...

LOL! That's rich. I have to be 'precise' but you don't even have to define what it is to slap some more math formulas into inflation theory and add the label "dark energy". Sheesh. Talk about double standards.
 
Thanks. I cannot easily confirm your comments about the signatories. I was able to find out a little about some of them on the Internet and they appeared to have credentials in physics, astronomy and cosmology. Accepting your analysis (provisionally), I would agree that my conclusion that the list was "impressive" was at best premature and at worst in error.
To be quite clear ... some of the signatories, two or three, are really quite impressive, in terms of the calibre of at least some of their work: Narlikar, Bondi, and (perhaps) Gold (I am not very familiar with it).

Others show considerable potential, e.g. Baryshev, Marziani.

And no one can fault Arp's earlier work as an observational astronomer, nor Paturel's contributions to LEDA.

I would not be at all surprised to learn that at least some of those who have published in their areas of expertise - plasma physics, chemistry, etc - are highly regarded in those fields.

However, the quoted statement is about cosmology, and about two alternatives in particular (SS and PC), as well as "observational contradictions of the big bang". The track record - in terms of published papers on these topics - of the 34 signatories is pretty dismal (with a few notable exceptions), even depressing ... to me it reads like whining of the most contemptible kind.

ETA: Of course, I may be quite wrong ... if so, then let's have some falsifying data ...
 
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Here is what I was responding to:(bold added)

If something as radically different as geometry (than a force) can overturn a current, prevailing theory of gravity once, why can't it happen again? What leads you to say that the only thing possible - wrt theories of gravity - is modification or amplification to some small degree?

If "DE" means the empirical shorthand, it cannot - by definition - "be overturned" ... by anything!

IF "DE" means lambda, then it is gravity (as in GR, the EFE, etc), and there is no (independent) "theory of DE" ... what would be overturned "by a new approach coming from new observations" would be the "current prevailing theory of gravity", which in the immediately preceding sentence you said "is not going to be overturned"!

As I said, confusing at best ...

Your comments are rather pedantic. GR is a foundational theory with enormous experimental and observational support and it is highly unlikely that it will ever be totally overturned. Of course, it could possibly be tweaked at some point. DE (the current theories that have come about due to red shift observations within the last several years) could be totally revised, abandoned or overturned by further observations and subsequent analysis. What could be simpler than that statement?
 
However, the quoted statement is about cosmology, and about two alternatives in particular (SS and PC), as well as "observational contradictions of the big bang". The track record - in terms of published papers on these topics - of the 34 signatories is pretty dismal (with a few notable exceptions), even depressing ... to me it reads like whining of the most contemptible kind.

Here, try some of these papers.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-abs_connect?return_req=no_params&&author=Alfven,+H&db_key=AST
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/n...eq=no_params&&author=Falthammar,+C&db_key=AST
 
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Your comments are rather pedantic. GR is a foundational theory with enormous experimental and observational support and it is highly unlikely that it will ever be totally overturned. Of course, it could possibly be tweaked at some point. DE (the current theories that have come about due to red shift observations within the last several years) could be totally revised, abandoned or overturned by further observations and subsequent analysis. What could be simpler than that statement?

The funny part is that DE could actually already be "replaced" with EM fields. :)
http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.1970
 
[...]
DeiRenDopa said:
Inflation:
1) demonstrate that the observable universe is not, in fact, isotropic and homogeneous on the largest scales (modulo a good quantitative version of this)

Define the exact features (size) of a "hole" or a "dark flow" that would be massive enough to falsify it? Guth already knew it was a relatively uniform layout of matter.
2) show conclusively that the CMB is not, in fact, cosmological (e.g. that it arises within ~100 Mpc of our galaxy)


Based on the "holes" that have been found in the galaxy and WMAP data, it seems that this effect is likely to be caused by an "average" density being relatively constant. It should be up to you to demonstrate it must come from a surface of last scattering.

DE: first you have to state what "the dark energy hypothesis" is; you can't falsify something that is not sufficiently precise ...

LOL! That's rich. I have to be 'precise' but you don't even have to define what it is to slap some more math formulas into inflation theory and add the label "dark energy". Sheesh. Talk about double standards.

Here's what you asked (bold added): "How can I falsify any part of the inflation hypothesis or the dark energy hypothesis?"

May I ask in what way does your post, that I am quoting, addresses the question that you asked?

"???? What's the point of answering your if all you intend to do is be twist my words like a pretzel?" - do you know who wrote that?
 
Here's what you asked (bold added): "How can I falsify any part of the inflation hypothesis or the dark energy hypothesis?"

May I ask in what way does your post, that I am quoting, addresses the question that you asked?

"???? What's the point of answering your if all you intend to do is be twist my words like a pretzel?" - do you know who wrote that?

It must be time for me to head for bed. Your statements aren't even making sense, specifically the part I emphasized. Why would one of my post address my own question? I'm tired and that highlighted question simply makes no sense to me whatsoever.
 
Your comments are rather pedantic. GR is a foundational theory with enormous experimental and observational support and it is highly unlikely that it will ever be totally overturned.
I imagine that words with a similar meaning were written ~100 years after Newton published his theory of gravity too ... and that theory wasn't overturned until the early 20th century.

Yet Homo sapiens has been around for merely a million years or so, and science only 500 (or a couple of thousand, YMMV).

And yet how more radical could a theory be overturned, than by replacing a force with geometry?

From where does you evident confidence in the permanence of GR come?

For example, it has been known for many decades now that QM and GR are mutually incompatible at a very fundamental level ... so at least one must be overturned sometime, and possibly both.

Of course, it could possibly be tweaked at some point. DE (the current theories that have come about due to red shift observations within the last several years) could be totally revised, abandoned or overturned by further observations and subsequent analysis. What could be simpler than that statement?
First, as I said, "DE" has at least two different meanings.

In one it is merely a shorthand for the sum total of all relevant observations (CMB, SNe Ia, BAO, ...). As such, it cannot be "overturned", by definition ... any more than any other collection of observational data can.

In another it is merely a part of GR, and observations establishing that lambda has a value of precisely zero are rarely elevated to the exalted heights of overturnment (or whatever).

Of course, there are specific hypotheses which may well be overturned, quintessence, for example (MM seems to be ignorant of this nuance, but then he seems to deny that lambda is 'merely' a part of GR to begin with).

Oh, and although some DE hypotheses are derived from, or part of, theories, AFAIK there is no such thing as "DE (the current theories that have come about due to red shift observations within the last several years)". It's tricky I know, but 'theory' has a rather different meaning in science than in everyday English (and it's quite different from any of the wide range of meanings that MM uses when penning that word).
 
The funny part is that DE could actually already be "replaced" with EM fields. :)
http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.1970

Whoa... you believe that paper? It says that the energy in EM fields does not redshift with the expansion of the universe!! You'd better go back and argue with the other MM that was here, because he ranted on and on about how every form of energy must decrease with expansion!

That's going to be entertaining to watch! :p



The ironic thing is, both of you are wrong...
 
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Why should I? I certainly believe that we grossly underestimate the mass in many galaxies, and I'm sure MACHO forms of "dark matter" exist in nature. As long as you aren't stuffing hypothetical SUSY particles in there, I'll let you use "dark matter" in the form of MACHO forms of dark matter, neutrinos, etc.

The only problem being, we know (or at least we think we know) that MACHOS cannot be the only explanation from microlensing experiments. Unless you want to object to GR again...
 
If I can't explain it without it, that is not an automatic "inflationofthegaps" option that allows you to stuff inflation in there.
Of course, that why we have other reasons for having it. Like the horizon problem.

It's flat because it's always been that way for all I know.
Well, without it GR gives no particular reason for space being flat. Though it is rather conveinient. If space was highly curved we probably wouldn't exist. Without a scientific theory like inflation we're left with a very big problem.

A better answer is "I don't know why it's flat".
Good answer. But what you don't know about the Universe doesn't mean other people don't have a good idea.

Again however, my inability to explain it's flatness is not an excuse for instantly stuffing inflation into the gaps.
That's why its a good job it explains multiple observations. The question you asked was did it have any effect on the Universe today (or words to that effect). To which the resounding answer is "YES", if the theory is a good one since its probably responsible for the whole structure of the Universe. And since inflation can account for multiple observations most of us seem to think its a good theory. You could always offer up an alternative if you so desired.

In other words, no, someone will just tweak the alleged properties of inflation until they "postdict" another fit, and away we go again. What *possible way* is there to falsify a constantly postdicted theory based on no less than 3 different fudge factors and only 4% real physics?
Now you're just spouting rubbish again. You said you were OK with GR and then you say that our current cosmological paradigm which is entirely consistent with and governed by GR is only 4% physics. You really are a bit confused, aren't you?
 
QM was fine 20 years ago before DE. You then change the mixture of the galaxy and add 75% of something you can't identify and it has no affect on QM?

As I understand it (not very well admittedly), if anything, the problem from QM is why the lambda term is so small.
 
We find you again attacking the credibility of the individual rather than defending your own theory with empirical evidence. It is because you can't do the later that you are forced to do the former. It's getting old.

:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp

The person who couldn't defend his opinions with science and resorts to an argument from a long list of people accusing somebody who tears his pathetic list to shreds of not being able to provide empirical evidence. I can't find the words to describe the level of hypocrisy here.
 
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