Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

What does terrestrial lightining have to do with Sun? There is no Earth-to-Sun flow of electricity.Opposite flow is result of charged particles,that's all.

Actually, that is incorrect.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/themis/auroras/northern_lights.html

The definition of a "magnetic rope" from Alfven in Cosmic Plasma.

"However, in cosmic plasmas the perhaps most important constriction mechanism is the electromagnetic attraction between parallel currents . A manifestation of this mechanism is the pinch effect, which was studied by Bennett long ago (1934), and has received much attention in connection with thermonuclear research . As we shall see, phenomena of this general type also exist on a cosmic scale, and lead to a bunching of currents and magnetic fields to filaments or `magnetic ropes' . This bunching is usually accompanied by an accumulation of matter, and it may explain the observational fact that cosmic matter exhibits an abundance of filamentary structures (II .4 .1) . This same mechanism may also evacuate the regions near the rope and produce regions of exceptionally low densities."

Here is a link to Wiki article on a "Bennett Pinch".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)

A pinch is the compression of an electrically conducting filament by magnetic forces. The conductor is usually a plasma, but could also be a solid or liquid metal. In a z-pinch, the current is axial (in the z direction in a cylindrical coordinate system) and the magnetic field azimuthal; in a theta-pinch, the current is azimuthal (in the theta direction in cylindrical coordinates) and the magnetic field is axial. The phenomenon may also be referred to as a "Bennett pinch"[1] (after Willard Harrison Bennett), "electromagnetic pinch",[2] "magnetic pinch",[3] "pinch effect"[4] or "plasma pinch".[5]

Pinches occur naturally in electrical discharges such as lightning bolts,[6] the aurora,[7] current sheets,[8] and solar flares.[9] They are also produced in the laboratory, primarily for research into fusion power, but also by hobbyists[citation needed].

There is a direct electrical connection between the sun and the Earth on a continuous basis due to the fast moving charged particle whizzing by the Earth at over a million miles per hour. That process induces currents into the Earth's magnetosphere on a continuous basis.
 
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Cluster-sized diffuse radio waveband synchrotron radiation

This is the last post in answer to RC's question about what sort of things one should expect to see if one looked at (rich) clusters (of galaxies), in a universe where the model Peratt outlined in his pair of 1986 papers ruled.

Recall that a) we cannot actually answer this question, at least not without running simulations using the same code Peratt used; and b) in any case, Peratt's model is so strongly inconsistent with so many, and so many types of, good astronomical observations that it's safe to say it does not describe the universe we live in. Rather, I have taken a look at clusters with the objective of exploring the extent to which there is any evidence for the ubiquitous galactic-scale filaments so central to that model.

I looked at the visual/optical, x-ray, and radio wavebands. There's no evidence in the first two, because what emission there is is well accounted for by stars (optical) and hot plasma (x-ray), not to mention a lack of filaments*.

For the radio, I introduced a recent review, by Ferrari et al., pointing out that where diffuse radio emission has been detected from clusters, it bears the signatures of synchrotron radiation ... just what you'd expect from Peratt's filaments.

The first thing to note about this cluster radio emission is that it's pretty rare.

Peratt includes ~50 double-lobed galaxies and quasars in Paper I, and that may seem like a lot; in fact it's the same number (within a factor of two or so) as the total number of clusters with extended radio emission! To understand just how few this is, consider that the famous Abell catalogue (of rich, local clusters) has >4,000 members.

So the scarcity of any extended cluster (synchrotron) radio emission would seem to suggest that Peratt's galactic-scale filaments are far from ubiquitous.

Ferrari et al. divide extended cluster radio emission into three classes: radio halos, radio mini-halos, and radio relics, with the last being a heterogenous class comprising "AGN relics", "Phoenix", and "radio gischt". The mini-halos (of which there are only ~10) and AGN relics are closely associated with individual galaxies, and so should be considered wrt Peratt's 1986 papers directly. The radio halos and gischt are clearly associated with cluster collisions/mergers; there are no filaments in the former, and those in the latter seem to arise from shocks that are produced by the collision.

Which leaves just one sub-class of object that might be consistent with Peratt's model, the "Phoenix" radio relics.

So, RC, in a word, no astronomical observations, of rich clusters, that support the Peratt idea, with the possible exception of a particularly rare kind of radio relic found only in a very few merging clusters.

But the extended cluster radio emission, being synchrotron, means there are magnetic fields in galaxy clusters (or at least some clusters), as well as sources of relativistic electrons ... so does this point to a way to rule out the Peratt model more directly?

Yes ... and it also addresses the second of Anaconda's topics (that he wanted to focus discussion on, before he left us); namely, what can we say about the processes - plasma or otherwise or combo - that produce the relativistic electrons that produce the (radio) synchrotron emission, both in clusters and individual galaxies. Stay tuned.

* one thing I omitted in my earlier posts: Peratt makes it clear that he expects the synchrotron radiation from (galactic-sized) "Bennett-pinched filaments" to be observed from the x-ray to the microwave wavebands ... IOW, the plasma processes will generate copious quantities of (highly) relativistic electrons, and the magnetic fields associated with the field aligned currents are strong enough. Needless to say that a lack of synchrotron emission in wavebands other than the radio (and microwave, depending on how you define the bands) is but one more inconsistency between his model and the observed universe.
 
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Looks like misunderstanding coupled with bad expression of my thoughts.I took it as a case of charged atmosphere against ground and not this polar discharged.

There is a direct electrical connection between the sun and the Earth on a continuous basis due to the fast moving charged particle whizzing by the Earth at over a million miles per hour. That process induces currents into the Earth's magnetosphere on a continuous basis.
That agrees with my comment,but it is one way.(Not a circuit)
Only charged particles streaming out...
 
I very much agree with this comment. It often seems to (a semi-informed participant like) me that after these characters have been shown to be full of themselves and nothing more, the debate goes on and on with no purpose or end in sight. Mozino, Sol88, et al. have demonstrated that they are as indefatigable as they are incapable of following a logical discussion and will continue their inane comments indefinitely.

I can't say I've followed this conversation well enough to say much about Sol88 et all, but I imagine there are significant similarities. I can however say you're being unreasonable for claiming anyone is being "incapable of following a logical discussion" just because they disagree with your beliefs. I can just tell the difference between a "pressure difference" and "negative pressure". I can also tell a pure snow job from something that can be empirically and physically demonstrated. If and when you get inflation to do anything useful, you let me know. Until then most of the "skeptics" of current theory are bound to look for alternatives that don't require "ad hoc" creation of new forces of nature to explain nature.
 
Looks like misunderstanding coupled with bad expression of my thoughts.I took it as a case of charged atmosphere against ground and not this polar discharged.

Not to worry. It's a very common misconception. :)

That agrees with my comment,but it is one way.(Not a circuit)
Only charged particles streaming out...

Hmmm. You seem to be very narrowly defining the idea of a "circuit".
 
I can't say I've followed this conversation well enough to say much about Sol88 et all, but I imagine there are significant similarities. I can however say you're being unreasonable for claiming anyone is being "incapable of following a logical discussion" just because they disagree with your beliefs. I can just tell the difference between a "pressure difference" and "negative pressure".
People can ignore this comment since it is from someone who thinks that the ideal gas law is a definition of pressure! It is of course the pressure in the specific case of an ideal gas.

The actual definition of pressure lets the value of the pressure be negative. If the force normal to a surface is directed towards the surface then the pressure is treated as positive (e.g. atmospheric pressure). If the force normal to a surface is directed away from the surface then the pressure is treated as negative. The Casimir effect between 2 parallel metallic plates exerts a negative pressure. This is evident from both the theory and the actual experimental measurements of negative pressure.

I can also tell a pure snow job from something that can be empirically and physically demonstrated. If and when you get inflation to do anything useful, you let me know. Until then most of the "skeptics" of current theory are bound to look for alternatives that don't require "ad hoc" creation of new forces of nature to explain nature.
MM seems to think that the following are not "useful":
  • Explaining why the universe appears flat, homogeneous and isotropic.
  • Explaining the large-scale structure of the universe.
 
I can't say I've followed this conversation well enough to say much about Sol88 et all, but I imagine there are significant similarities. I can however say you're being unreasonable for claiming anyone is being "incapable of following a logical discussion" just because they disagree with your beliefs.

Indeed. However, when someone is corrected numerous times on established physics, mathematics, logic and evidence, and that person maintains his own beliefs regardless, often making the claim that those corrections were not made, it's quite reasonable to assume that they haven't followed.
 
Most plasmas are not fully ionized, they are "dusty". I fail to see why you think there would be no possibility of ionizing some of the materials, or a further ionizing of the materials due to an electrical discharge.

I never said you couldn't further ionize a plasma. But that won't give you lightning, because the transition from low-ionization plasma to high-ionization plasma is gradual, whereas lightning behaves the way it does precisely because it is NOT a gradual transition but an abrupt one.
 
On one hand, this is a real issue. A biologist popping in to a creationism discussion board might find him or herself in the same position as Zeuzzz is here---one voice on one side against N on the other side.

It could also be a real issue, hypothetically, in the case that all crackpots imagine themselves in: "I've got the skeleton of The Right Theory but not all the details". Imagine, say, Erwin Schrodinger in 1922 trying to explain quantum mechanics to a crowd---and that the crowd could already come up with nonlocality, Bell's Inequality, the Lamb shift, and whatnot as "objections" to which the answers are not obvious. This was more or less the case with early continental drift---its defender didn't have enough information to defend it.

But it's also the expected situation with someone stubbornly promoting indefensible baloney. It was the situation in the longer Bigfoot photo threads; it was the situation in Dutch's ongoing thread.

But we do learn something from Zeuzzz's circumstances here. We learned that:

  • Zeuzzz had no reliable resources to turn to. If you ask me a question about any complex field of mainstream science---well, I know where to find the reliable sources. "Why exactly can't we do lattice QCD at high baryon chemical potential?" is not a question I know the answer to, but:
    1. It would not prompt "Don't hound me, I'm only one man!"
    2. It would not prompt a random Google search unrelated lattice papers
    3. It would prompt a quick scan of Annual Reviews of Nuclear and Particle Science, because the scientists want you to know what they know and that's how they do it.
  • PC relies heavily on a small number of very old papers. The entirety of the data on "electric models of loops from the Sun" seems to be this 100-year-old terella thing. Jeez, I can't think of another experiment, in any field, that hasn't been improved in 100 years. Heck, we routinely restage most of the foundational experiments of physics in undergrad labs. The entirety of "E&M models reproduce the flat galactic rotation curve" seems to be based on a single 1992 simulation by Peratt. The entirety of the "magnetic reconnection doesn't exist" thing seems to come from random quotes from Alfven. Again, if PC had something like a normal scientific background, Zeuzzz should not have felt besieged with this stuff, he'd have had a library of standard citations.
  • We've got three anti-mainstream people "contributing" to the discussion (Sol88, Mozina, and Z.) and exactly zero constructive consensus among them---odd, no?---and also no disagreement. Stop me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Z. ever posting something like "MM and Sol88, please shut up, you've got the physics wrong." (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
  • PC is not in the position of Schrodinger circa 1922, nor Wegener circa 1916. The theory he's defending is decades old, and its whole attraction was supposed to be that the physics (just E&M, no Big Bang) was already well known. We random JREFers should not have been the first people asking hard questions---and indeed we weren't. The problem really is that the questions don't have good answers ... except "Sorry, PC is rubbish", a perfectly straight answer that Z. didn't want to give.


Your right in many things you say here, but soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong in others. I'll have a bash at this tomorrow when I've had some time to copy and paste all the answers I've already given to most of these queries. I dont have the time to address every point people put forward for a good couple of months now, but this post seems like a reasonable point to start from.
 
Meanwhile, If anyone still reads my links, heres the recent webpage from the ACG on some of the growing problems with Big Bang, notably the seeminly non cosmological nature of the CMB, and various other predictions the Big Bang made that have now been falsified. Includes issues about the Large scale structure seen in SDSS impossible to explain with LCDM without making the theory even more complex by than it already is, issues with "black hole" theories, MOND theory developments, the viability of expansion and "negative pressure" ideas along with the modifications of relativity, the properties of the CMBR and redshift issues.

April:
http://www.cosmology.info/newsletter/2009.04.pdf

Also the previous months publication contains some plasma cosmology relevant type material (page 5), and more issues with galaxy distribution from the GOODS survey, more enigmatic issues with the CMB and other issues.

March:
http://www.cosmology.info/newsletter/2009.03.pdf

[...] The current newsletter is a review of 1,006 papers published under astro-ph on arXiv for the month of February, 2009. [...]

[...]The Cinderella role of plasma astrophysics seems to be getting its glass slipper. Magnetism has long been recognised in cosmological systems, and the necessary following step of acknowledging that magnetism does not exist without electricity is being taken by several teams of investigators, including these:

“The major questions relevant to star and planet formation are: What controls the rate, efficiency, spatial clustering, multiplicity, and initial mass function of star formation, now and in the past? What are the major feedback mechanisms through which star formation affects its environment? What controls the formation and orbital parameters of planets, especially terrestrial planets? These questions cannot be fully addressed without understanding key magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) and plasma physics processes. Although some of these basic problems have long been considered intractable, attacking them through a combination of laboratory experiment, theory, and numerical simulation is now feasible, and would be fruitful. Achieving a better understanding of these processes is critical to interpreting observations, and will form an important component of astrophysical models. These models in turn will serve as inputs to other areas of astrophysics, e.g. cosmology and galaxy formation.”

Title: Plasma Astrophysics Problems in Star and Planet Formation
Authors: Ellen Zweibel, Jeremy Goodman, Hantao Ji, Alex Lazarian
arXiv:0902.3617

“Macroscopic plasma polarization, which is created by gravitation and other mass-acting (inertial) forces in massive astrophysical objects (MAO) is under discussion. Non-ideality effect due to strong Coulomb interaction of charged particles is introduced into consideration as a new source of such polarization. Simplified situation of totally equilibrium isothermal star without relativistic effects and influence of magnetic field is considered.”

Title: Plasma Polarization in Massive Astrophysical Objects
Author: Igor Iosilevskiy
arXiv:0902.2386

Russel Kulsrud, co-author of the following paper, wrote the standard text “Plasma Physics for Astrophysics” (Princeton University Press, 2005). The abstract of the current paper says, “We discuss the outstanding issues of the interstellar medium which will depend on the application of knowledge from plasma physics. We particularly advocate attention to recent developments in experimental plasma physics, and urge that the astronomical community consider support of these experiments in the next decade.”

Title: Plasma Physics Processes of the Interstellar Medium
Authors: Steven Spangler, Marijke Haverkorn, Thomas Intrator, Russell Kulsrud, Alex Lazarian, Seth Redfield, Ellen Zweibel
arXiv:0902.4181 [.....]



The february issue also has some good material;

http://www.cosmology.info/newsletter/2009.02.pdf

Electricity

The synergy between electricity and magnetism manifests in stellar dynamos, and we are able to study this phenomenon close-up in the Sun. It is intriguing however, to contemplate why serious studies like this one ignore the comprehensive experimental results obtained by plasma physicists.

Title: Paradigm shifts in solar dynamo modelling
Author: Axel Brandenburg
arXiv:0901.3789

The identification of Alfven waves as a driving mechanism in stellar winds is an important concession to plasma physics in cosmology.

Title: Alfven waves as a driving mechanism in stellar winds
Authors: A. A. Vidotto, V. Jatenco-Pereira
arXiv:0901.4573


will discuss in detail later, especially the April publication, which brings up some very pertinant points very relevent to this thread.
 
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Zeuzzz said:
The identification of Alfven waves as a driving mechanism in stellar winds is an important concession to plasma physics in cosmology.

I hope you are not serious about claiming that this is something new. PhD students were doing research in AW heating of the corona and driving of the solar wind when I started studying astrophysics in 1984!

Apart from that the whole sentence does not even make sense.
 
Meanwhile, If anyone still reads my links, heres the recent webpage from the ACG on some of the growing problems with Big Bang, notably the seeminly non cosmological nature of the CMB, and various other predictions the Big Bang made that have now been falsified. Includes issues about the Large scale structure seen in SDSS impossible to explain with LCDM without making the theory even more complex by than it already is, issues with "black hole" theories, MOND theory developments, the viability of expansion and "negative pressure" ideas along with the modifications of relativity, the properties of the CMBR and redshift issues.

April:
http://www.cosmology.info/newsletter/2009.04.pdf
And this is relevant to the topic of this thread - whether Plasma Cosmology is (scientific) woo or not - how?

Perhaps you making a strong hint at the logical fallacy of false dichotomy? the very fallacy you yourself so recently (incorrectly) saw in someone else's post?

Also the previous months publication contains some plasma cosmology relevant type material (page 5), and more issues with galaxy distribution from the GOODS survey, more enigmatic issues with the CMB and other issues.

March:
http://www.cosmology.info/newsletter/2009.03.pdf





The february issue also has some good material;

http://www.cosmology.info/newsletter/2009.02.pdf




will discuss in detail later, especially the April publication, which brings up some very pertinant points very relevent to this thread.
(bold added).

Now way back in this thread, post #684 to be precise, you provided us with a definition of plasma cosmology that meets the criteria for scientific woo*, so unless you are going to provide a different definition, then all and any such material you may wish to provide will be quite irrelevant to this section of the JREF Forum, won't it?

* namely, arbitrary rejection of General Relativity as having any role whatsoever to play in cosmology
 
Your right in many things you say here, but soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong in others. I'll have a bash at this tomorrow when I've had some time to copy and paste all the answers I've already given to most of these queries. I dont have the time to address every point people put forward for a good couple of months now, but this post seems like a reasonable point to start from.
I, for one, am looking forward to it.

And I refreshed my memory of your earlier posts, and - once again - came across this succinct post by si, very early in this thread:
sol invictus said:
The trouble is that there is no such thing as plasma cosmology. There is a set of ideas, ranging from the totally ridiculous (the sun is powered by electricity) to the merely stupid (flat galactic rotation curves can be explained by electromagnetic forces) to phenomena not fully understood by anyone (solar flares) to the totally mundane (most matter in the universe is plasma).

Every single concrete idea which has been put forward - of which there have not been many - has either been debunked or turns out to be consistent with mainstream astrophysics. After the fact, Zeuzzz has then declared that those ideas weren't PC after all. Every attempt to get him to produce a concrete or quantitative prediction of PC has failed, largely I think because he recognizes that it will probably be shown false in short order, leaving him with few options.

So instead he continues making vague statements about PC, and spends most of his posts attacking aspects of the standard cosmological model (relying on the logic of false dichotomy: if the standard theory is wrong mine must be right - even though I don't have one).

He runs away whenever he gets too thoroughly trapped. For example we had a long discussion on magnetic reconnection - a standard and well understood phenomenon which he claimed violated Maxwell's equations. Since this was an extremely clear example, I decided that it would make a good test. If Zeuzzz couldn't learn or admit he was wrong about that, he never would about anything and there wasn't much point in conversation. After months of being bludgeoned with irrefutable experimental, theoretical, and numerical evidence, he had totally reversed his position - while denying he had changed at all. When confronted with proof in the form of his own old posts (internet fora are nice that way) he ran away, and has only been back rarely since.
A convenient set of criteria to judge your future copy/pasted material, don't you think?
 
I hope you are not serious about claiming that this is something new. PhD students were doing research in AW heating of the corona and driving of the solar wind when I started studying astrophysics in 1984!

Apart from that the whole sentence does not even make sense.

This gets back to the (oft-repeated) point:

Mainstream astrophysicists know a lot about plasma already. We are not ignoring it. Our reasons for rejecting PC are not "because it includes plasma and we just want to use gas" or something like that. In fact, we can't generically reject "PC" because no one will explain what it is. We can listen to specific subtheories and accept or reject them. Let's remember:

We reject Peratt's rotation-curve model because it disagrees with actual facts about rotation curves. We reject Mozina's iron sun model because it is wrong. We reject the specific claim that "reconnection doesn't exist" because it is incredibly stupidly wrong. We reject the claim that "field lines don't exist" because it is not even wrong. We reject the claim that the large-scale structure of the Universe represents some sort of giant current-carrying loops because the numbers don't work.

Meanwhile, we do not reject mainstream space plasma claims like "the sun has a magnetic field", "the corona is a plasma and is much hotter than the Sun's surface, implying an additional heating mechanism", "the solar wind is a plasma", "some accretion disk plasmas are magnetic-pressure dominated" and so on. That's good science. This sort of research is done by lots of very smart people, and they manage to study space plasma with real math, with modern and constantly-improving experiments and simulations, and without subscribing to the claim that the rest of astrophysics is a sham. And these people publish their work in mainstream journals.

So, Zeuzzz, we have been (and continue) lumping the former claims into the category of "plasma cosmology". We have been lumping the latter claims into the category of "normal astrophysics". We have repeatedly asked you for a definition of plasma cosmology, or a list of practitioners, or something, that would make this division less arbitrary---you have never provided one.

By claiming now that "Alfven waves heat the corona"---and quoting this as a "vindication of plasma cosmology"---you are reinforcing my impression that you don't know what PC is, you are just Googling randomly for papers mentioning plasma. Let me be more specific: the paper with the conclusive AW observation is ArXiV:0903.3546. It cites 28 other papers. Exactly zero of them are by Messrs. Peratt, Mozina, Manuel, or Lerner. Exactly zero of them are from the journals IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Astrophysics and Space Science, or Laser and Particle Beams. (The former, IIRC, was supposed to be a leading journal of plasma cosmology.) In fact, this paper is part of an long-standing mainstream discourse on heating mechanisms in the coronal plasma which has nothing to do with Plasma Cosmology. So, with that in mind, I want you to either defend or recant the claim of "vindication". Two questions:

1) If corona heating is a big PC topic, please point out a chain of citations showing where a self-identified, anti-Big-Bang, anti-dark-matter plasma cosmologist (other than Alfven, of course) was instrumental in the theory and experiment that generated 0903.3546. "We would never have realized that AW could affect the corona until I saw this Z-pinch photo from LANL and realized that there was no dark matter."

2) If corona heating vindicates PC, please revisit our detailed criticism of Anthony Peratt's rotation-curve simulation. I know you probably thought these critiques were wrong to begin with. Please explain in detail which critiques are invalidated by 0903.3546's new evidence that the Solar corona is heated by Alfven waves.
 
This gets back to the (oft-repeated) point:

Mainstream astrophysicists know a lot about plasma already. We are not ignoring it. Our reasons for rejecting PC are not "because it includes plasma and we just want to use gas" or something like that. In fact, we can't generically reject "PC" because no one will explain what it is. We can listen to specific subtheories and accept or reject them. Let's remember:

We reject Peratt's rotation-curve model because it disagrees with actual facts about rotation curves. We reject Mozina's iron sun model because it is wrong. We reject the specific claim that "reconnection doesn't exist" because it is incredibly stupidly wrong. We reject the claim that "field lines don't exist" because it is not even wrong. We reject the claim that the large-scale structure of the Universe represents some sort of giant current-carrying loops because the numbers don't work.

Meanwhile, we do not reject mainstream space plasma claims like "the sun has a magnetic field", "the corona is a plasma and is much hotter than the Sun's surface, implying an additional heating mechanism", "the solar wind is a plasma", "some accretion disk plasmas are magnetic-pressure dominated" and so on. That's good science. This sort of research is done by lots of very smart people, and they manage to study space plasma with real math, with modern and constantly-improving experiments and simulations, and without subscribing to the claim that the rest of astrophysics is a sham. And these people publish their work in mainstream journals.

So, Zeuzzz, we have been (and continue) lumping the former claims into the category of "plasma cosmology". We have been lumping the latter claims into the category of "normal astrophysics". We have repeatedly asked you for a definition of plasma cosmology, or a list of practitioners, or something, that would make this division less arbitrary---you have never provided one.

By claiming now that "Alfven waves heat the corona"---and quoting this as a "vindication of plasma cosmology"---you are reinforcing my impression that you don't know what PC is, you are just Googling randomly for papers mentioning plasma. Let me be more specific: the paper with the conclusive AW observation is ArXiV:0903.3546. It cites 28 other papers. Exactly zero of them are by Messrs. Peratt, Mozina, Manuel, or Lerner. Exactly zero of them are from the journals IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Astrophysics and Space Science, or Laser and Particle Beams. (The former, IIRC, was supposed to be a leading journal of plasma cosmology.) In fact, this paper is part of an long-standing mainstream discourse on heating mechanisms in the coronal plasma which has nothing to do with Plasma Cosmology. So, with that in mind, I want you to either defend or recant the claim of "vindication". Two questions:


This post is hilarious. I should just say that 90% of whats been discussed in this thread is nothing to do with plasma cosmology. Most is plasma physics, some is speculative unpublished "electric universe" material, some is merely largely underappreciated plasma behaviour which will not be apparent in most standard plasma models, and some is pure woo-woo. I've continually tried to draw the line between cosmologically relvant material (plasma cosmology), plasma physics and electric universe theories. But I've said this so many times I'm just getting tired now. I'm gonna have a crack at your last post tomorrow, as I said I would previously, which should clear a lot of this up.

1) If corona heating is a big PC topic


Its not.


please point out a chain of citations showing where a self-identified, anti-Big-Bang, anti-dark-matter plasma cosmologist (other than Alfven, of course)


And on what basis do we exclude Alfvens work? He won a flipping Nobel prize for his work. And we're supposed to ignore his work?

2) If corona heating vindicates PC


It doesn't. Just read the three publications I linked to, it mainly points out issues with the Big Bang and the relevance of plasma behaviour, and thus adds credence (albeit very indirectly) to some of the plasma based models PC is founded on.
 
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This post is hilarious. I should just say that 90% of whats been discussed in this thread is nothing to do with plasma cosmology. Most is plasma physics, some is speculative unpublished "electric universe" material, some is merely largely underappreciated plasma behaviour which will not be apparent in most standard plasma models, and some is pure woo-woo. I've continually tried to draw the line between cosmologically relvant material (plasma cosmology), plasma physics and electric universe theories. But I've said this so many times I'm just getting tired now. I'm gonna have a crack at your last post tomorrow, as I said I would previously, which should clear a lot of this up.
That is correct - there are several posters in this thread that insist that standard plasma physics applied on planetary, stellar and interstellar scales is evidence for "plasma cosmology". People tend to reply to these posts thus derailing the thread.

But this does not matter since the original topic was addressed many months ago:
PC does not exist as a scientific theory and in fact there are serveral different definitions of it depending on which PC proponent you talk to.
For example the previously mentioned post by sol invictus was on 5th May 2008 and your citation of the non-scientific definiton of E Lerner (I think) on 3rd July 2008.

FYI: Scientific theories do not start with stating that they will exclude hypotheses even if these hypotheses explain the observations. That is more like theology.
Scientific theories start with hypotheses that explain the observations and then test the hypotheses. That is why Alfven's scientific Plasma Cosmology theory was found to be inadequate - its hypotheses failed their tests (e.g. the CMB isotropy and the X-ray background).

It doesn't. Just read the three publications I linked to, it mainly points out issues with the Big Bang and the relevance of plasma behaviour, and thus adds credence (albeit very indirectly) to some of the plasma based models PC is founded on.
Raising issues with theory A is in no way supporting evidence for theory B - even "very indirectly".
You might as well say that pointing out issues with the Big Bang adds credence to creationism :)!

The statement "some of the plasma based models PC is founded on" sounds new. Are you saying that there are actual plasma based cosmological models that have as good predictions as the Lambda-CDM model? Can you give us a list?
Which one of the models predicts the existence, temperature, black body thermal spectrum and power spectrum of the CMB (or even just the first 3 properties)?
 
You might as well say that pointing out issues with the Big Bang adds credence to creationism :)!


No actually, its the complete opposite, more issues with the Big Bang there are the less creationists can see their cherished god given event of creation out of nothing verified by science.
 
Perhaps you would like to restate this in English.

This is just Zeuzzz illustrating that he missed the quantitative revolution (again). He seems to think LCDM supports religious creationism because both indicate some form of beginning of time. The fact that one gives an age of the Universe of 13.7 billion years whereas the other has a typical age of say 10,000 years and thus these theories (or rather this theory and this "theory") disagree by a factor of 1.37 million is irrelevant because Zeuzzz missed the quantitative revolution.
 
So we have planets/moons acting as generators/motors immersed inside the suns plasma stream that is crissed crossed by "invisible" FAC's (Birkeland currents) transferring energy/information from one location to another over vast distances, such as the one's Ulysses found.

This ion tail, it now turns out, went on for an even longer stretch. A recent review of 1996 data from the Ulysses spacecraft reveals this tail as the longest ever recorded. Spanning at least 571 million kilometers--about 3.5 times the Earth-sun distance--the tail might have extended to the fringes of the solar system, researchers report in the April 6 NATURE.

"A spacecraft could travel through regions of the solar system picking up ions from the many invisible comet tails that probably crisscross our solar system," says George Gloeckler of the University of Maryland, College Park. He coauthored one of the two Ulysses studies in the NATURE issue. A NASA-European Space Agency mission launched in 1990, Ulysses explores the polar regions of the sun.
LINK

It might of even extended to the fringes of our solar system! Say somewhere near the heliospheric boundary?
A star is a pinpoint object at the center of a vast plasma sheath. The plasma sheath forms the boundary of the electrical influence of the star, where it meets the electrical environment of the galaxy. The Sun’s plasma sheath, or ‘heliosphere’ is about 100 times more distant than the Earth is from the Sun. To give an idea of the immensity of the heliosphere, all of the stars in the Milky Way could fit inside a sphere encompassed by the orbit of Pluto. The Sun’s heliosphere could accommodate the stars from 8 Milky Ways!
Charged bodies embedded in plasma create about themselves a protective cocoon of plasma, rather like a living cell wall. This cell wall is known as a Langmuir plasma sheath, or ‘double layer,’ which contains most of the voltage difference between the charged body and the surrounding plasma. Only an electric current sustains the charge separation across the double layer. If the surrounding plasma is moving relative to the charged body, the plasma sheath is drawn out into a teardrop or cometary shape. And if the charged body is rotating it will generate a magnetic field that is trapped inside the plasma sheath. This has led to the misnomer — “magnetosphere” — when referring to a plasma sheath.
LINK

Wow planets/moons comets are a part of a circuit :cool:

Now what could Mercury have discharged too? To form the spider crater? A charged planet and a charged comet dragging a conductive "rope" thru the solar system, I just ask what would happen if ever the twain shall meet?
 
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So we have planets/moons acting as generators/motors immersed inside the suns plasma stream that is crissed crossed by "invisible" FAC's (Birkeland currents) transferring energy/information from one location to another over vast distances, such as the one's Ulysses found.

LINK

It might of even extended to the fringes of our solar system! Say somewhere near the heliospheric boundary? LINK

Wow planets/moons comets are a part of a circuit :cool:

Now what could Mercury have discharged too? To form the spider crater? A charged planet and a charged comet dragging a conductive "rope" thru the solar system, I just ask what would happen if ever the twain shall meet?
Wow - you are amzed by stuff that has been known for years.

What discharges and of what?

The spider crater was not formed by an electrical discharge as has already been shown.
 
I've continually tried to draw the line between cosmologically relvant material (plasma cosmology), plasma physics and electric universe theories. But I've said this so many times I'm just getting tired now. I'm gonna have a crack at your last post tomorrow, as I said I would previously, which should clear a lot of this up.

It doesn't. Just read the three publications I linked to, it mainly points out issues with the Big Bang and the relevance of plasma behaviour, and thus adds credence (albeit very indirectly) to some of the plasma based models PC is founded on.

This is the problem. On one hand you "try to draw a line" between PC (which as far as I can tell consists of Peratt's plasma-galaxy-has-flat-rotation and intergalactic-filaments-are-currents), and on the other hand you quoted a bunch of papers about star formation and one about Alfven waves in the solar corona.

Pointing out "issues with the big bang" does nothing for PC, unless PC can address those issues. Every crackpot theory in the world---PC, EU, Autodynamics, Null Physics, Creationism---is busy looking for ways to claim "issues with the big bang". PC's particular list of "issues" might have more credence if someone was suggesting both issues and resolutions, or avenues towards resolutions. (And, for that matter, knowing enough about the mainstream model to tell the difference between an underconstrained fit, a genuine puzzle, and a bad New Scientist article)
 
This is just Zeuzzz illustrating that he missed the quantitative revolution (again). He seems to think LCDM supports religious creationism because both indicate some form of beginning of time. The fact that one gives an age of the Universe of 13.7 billion years whereas the other has a typical age of say 10,000 years and thus these theories (or rather this theory and this "theory") disagree by a factor of 1.37 million is irrelevant because Zeuzzz missed the quantitative revolution.

Er, no. You seem to be ignoring the fact you can't "explain" your creation date any better than any religious oriented creationist without resorting to invisible friends. Why is that?
 
FYI T...

I've had plenty of creationists tell me that "God did it" when I tried to get them to explain the age of the universe based on the speed of light and the distance of stars in the sky. The only difference in your brand of religion seems to be that you require 3 invisible friends rather than one to achieve "superliminal expansion". "Inflation then dark energy and dark matter did it.". That seems to be the only significant difference and frankly your religion loses simply based on an Occum's razor argument. You need even more fudge factors than most creationist mythologies.
 
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Er, no. You seem to be ignoring the fact you can't "explain" your creation date any better than any religious oriented creationist without resorting to invisible friends. Why is that?

Actually there are multiple sources of data all agreeing that the time since the Big Bang is approximately 13.7 billion years. Now, if anyone had a faintest clue what they were talking about they wouldn't make such ridiculous statements as "you can't "explain" your creation date any better than any religious oriented creationist without resorting to invisible friends"? But you just did ask that. Why is that?
 
FYI T...

I've had plenty of creationists tell me that "God did it" when I tried to get them to explain the age of the universe based on the speed of light and the distance of stars in the sky. The only difference in your brand of religion seems to be that you require 3 invisible friends rather than one to achieve "superliminal expansion".

How many times do you have to be told that the expansion of space is not limited to the speed of light in GR before you understand that the expansion of the speed is not limited to the speed of light. Once would be enough for most people. What's this now? 15? 20? I have no idea.

"Inflation then dark energy and dark matter did it.".
Nope. With or without any of these three expansion of spacetime is not restricted to the speed of light.

That seems to be the only significant difference and frankly your religion loses simply based on an Occum's razor argument.
I don't really have a religion. A religion I don't have can't lose.

You need even more fudge factors than most creationist mythologies.
Erm. This is coming from a person who's fudge factor for the CMBR still missed by a factor of 700 million.
 
Fudge Factors in Cosmology?

You need even more fudge factors than most creationist mythologies.
Horse Pucky. Cow Feathers. Pish Tosh. Nonsense. Balderdash. In yer dreems. Since when does the geophysical age of the Earth depend on cosmological parameters? Since when does the astrophysical age of a globular cluster depend on cosmological parameters? If we make the altogether reasonable assumption that things in the universe must be less than or at most equal in age to the universe itself, we can destroy the creationist idea of a 10,000 year old universe without breaking a sweat with the pinky fingers, let alone the whole hand!

As for the cosmological age of the cosmological universe, based on cosmology and cosmological physics, it actually demands amazingly few "fudge factors". In fact, you can get a really good approximation without any "fudge factors" at all. In fact, I will assert here and now that there is not a single "fudge factor" to be found anywhere in cosmology, and I double dog dare you to find one anywhere, if you can!! How's that for an open invitation (not that anything which comes of it will be any less repetitive than what has gone before).
 
Dancing David said:
Look invisible bunny pictures!
Is that sort of like those "Look, here's an image of all the dark matter in the universe" images?
No.

In a little bit more detail: 'invisible bunny pictures'* is a succinct shorthand, referring to subjective, intuitive interpretation(s) of an image (on a computer screen, or printed on paper, etc); the very essence of non-science. The estimated, projected 2D density of CDM (on the sky), of/near a rich cluster of galaxies for example, rendered as an image (with a legend relating colour/brightness to density, say) is science.

Why?

For starters, the latter is objective and independently verifiable; the former (obviously) is not. IOW, you - or anyone else - can take the raw data (from the HST, say), apply the published models, and reproduce the results. Or you could make your own observations, using your own space telescope, develop you own models and software codes, and reproduce the results.

Then there's the consistency checking; for example, do the lensing models produce consistent results when applied to circumstances where no CDM is involved (in the MACHO project, for example, or OGLE)? Or are the estimates of the total amount of CDM, derived from the lensing models, consistent with the hydrostatic equilibrium models, derived from x-ray observations (again, to give just one example)?

And so on.

In a word, the difference is between contemporary science (astrophysics, in this case) and an approach to science that was superceded at least five centuries ago. ... but if you don't get the quantitative nature of science, then sure, I grant you that it is difficult to understand the difference.

* marvelous phrase btw DD, well done! :)
 
Er, no. You seem to be ignoring the fact you can't "explain" your creation date any better than any religious oriented creationist without resorting to invisible friends. Why is that?

Stick to things you have a clue about, like.... uh.... errrr.... hmm.

You know how long inflation lasted, right MM? At most around 10-27 seconds. That's right: without inflation, the universe would be 13.7 billion years less 10-27 seconds old, instead of 13.7 billion years old. :eye-poppi

As for dark matter and dark energy, if we lived in a different universe - one without DM and DE - the age of that other universe might be different than ours. It might be full of faeries, too and in it you might be right about something, once! (OK, OK, I know that's getting a little crazy, but anything's possible, right?)

But in our universe, the age of the universe is about 13.7 billion years. Can we "explain" that age? Nope. Can't explain the mass of the electron either, or of the proton, or the value of the fine structure constant, or the QCD scale, etc. etc. There are around 25-30 numbers we can't explain and have to measure. But once we've measured them, we can explain just about every one of the literally trillions of scientific observations ever made in history of physical science.

Most people think that's not bad - in fact really worth doing, since it lets us build nice things like that computer you're using and that car you used to drive around (before they took your license away for DWMM). Unlike you, the rest of us don't close our eyes, make little fists, kick scream and throw temper tantrums every time something we didn't expect comes along. Instead, we study it, and learn from it, and after a while we can build even more useful things.
 
Unlike you, the rest of us don't close our eyes, make little fists, kick scream and throw temper tantrums every time something we didn't expect comes along. Instead, we study it, and learn from it, and after a while we can build even more useful things.

I think most of "us" like when something unexpected comes along. Physics would be pretty dull if we really had solved everything by the end of the 19th century.
 
Hi Michael, care to explain which data supports your funny electric star model?

Specifically how does the solar wind have positive, neutral and negative particles?
 
Meanwhile, If anyone still reads my links, heres the recent webpage from the ACG on some of the growing problems with Big Bang, notably the seeminly non cosmological nature of the CMB, and various other predictions the Big Bang made that have now been falsified. Includes issues about the Large scale structure seen in SDSS impossible to explain with LCDM without making the theory even more complex by than it already is, issues with "black hole" theories, MOND theory developments, the viability of expansion and "negative pressure" ideas along with the modifications of relativity, the properties of the CMBR and redshift issues.

April:
http://www.cosmology.info/newsletter/2009.04.pdf

Also the previous months publication contains some plasma cosmology relevant type material (page 5), and more issues with galaxy distribution from the GOODS survey, more enigmatic issues with the CMB and other issues.

March:
http://www.cosmology.info/newsletter/2009.03.pdf





The february issue also has some good material;

http://www.cosmology.info/newsletter/2009.02.pdf




will discuss in detail later, especially the April publication, which brings up some very pertinant points very relevent to this thread.
(bold added)

I wonder long we will have to wait for "later" ...

... and when (if?) our waiting is over, I wonder just how "pertinent" the points Z eventually makes (from the doc) turn out to be (not to mention how "relevant" they are to this thread ...).
 
Bump. Haven't forgotten. Gimme a day or two. Kinda busy at the mo.
That will be interesting:
  • The April newsletter has no plasma cosmology in it.
  • The March newsletter has a "Plasma Cosmology" section that contains no cosmology (just plasma physics on planetary, stellar and interstellar scales)
  • The closest the February newsletter gets is more plasma physics ("Paradigm shifts in solar dynamo modelling" and "Alfven waves as a driving mechanism in stellar winds").
Or maybe you are back to the non-science defintion of "plasma cosmology" as
  • Anything that is not the Big Bang theory.
  • Anything that is plasma physics applied at any scale.
 

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