Deeper than primes

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Again,

By the standard notion a proper class is a collection that logically cannot be or it is too big in order to be considered as a set.

" Logically can't be " or "Too big" means that it is impossible to define such a collection in terms of set.

Funny, that's not what Proper_classWP says. Once again, you are abusing standard terms to be something they're not.


Since by OM, the cardinality of a collection is the magnitude of existence of its objects, then the full set is definable and proper classes are avoided, simply because only the full set is an actual non-finite.
See above.

It is done by using an ontological point of view of collections (it cannot be done by using the standard notion of cardinality) and as a result we get simpler and richer mathematical framework, which is much more interesting than the cantorean transfinite framework.
Collections can be done using the standard notion of cardinality. It's you that makes the water muddy.

<snip>

The fact is this: we have an existing {} that its cardinality is 0.

From an ontological point of view (where we first of all care about the existence (or non-existence) of things) an existing thing cannot have cardinality 0.
But you just said that there is an existing set that has a cardinality of 0. Most people call it the empty set.

In that case the cardinality of {} is detemined by the magnitude of existence of its members, where {} is en existing measurment tool, that is always excluded from the measurment.
Please define "the magnitude of existence of its members". You have been asked several times yet you avoid it.

Ok, let us close this dialog for now.
No. Let's not.

The fact is that jsfisher and The Man try to get OM by using the standard notions of set.

As a result they can't get OM's new notions about set.
It's because you can't define it.

By using an ontological viewpoint of the foundations of the mathematical science we distinguish between 3 levels of existence:
1) Emptiness
2) Intermediate
3) Fullness

Emptiness or Fullness can be researched only indirectly by using the intermediate level of existence.
Ok then, back to basics. Please define "Emptiness", "Intermediate", and "Fullness".

A set is a level 2 (Intermediate) thing.
Let's remember that.

By OM, the cardinality of a set is determined by the magnitude of existence of its members.
Please define "the magnitude of existence of its members".

A set exists even if it is empty, but this existence is excluded from its cardinality value.
So if a set has no members, the cardinality of that set is zero.

Since a set is a level 2 (Intermediate) thing, then:
1) It is above the level of Emptiness ( for example: {} )
2) It is at the level of sets ( for example: {a,b,c,...} )
3) It is below the level of Fullness ( for example: {_}_ )
You have not established why a set is a level 2 thing. The rest of this post depends on providing proof that a set is a level 2 thing. Just because you say it is, doesn't mean it's so.


Some claims "there is nothing below set".

He is right because "there is nothing" is Emptiness.

By following the ontological notion, we get the opposite of Emptiness, called Fullness.

Some claims "there is nothing above set".

Well this is ontologically wrong because "nothing" is below set.

Some claims "there is everything above set".
Site?

In summation, please define
  • the magnitude of existence of its members
  • Emptiness
  • Intermediate
  • Fullness
 
Some claims "there is nothing below set".

He is right because "there is nothing" is Emptiness.

By following the ontological notion, we get the opposite of Emptiness, called Fullness.

Some claims "there is nothing above set".

Well this is ontologically wrong because "nothing" is below set.
Surely this is just gibberish, or to be generous, a misunderstanding - nothing is, by definition, not 'a thing' that can only be in one place or another...
 
Simple concepts seem to confuse you very much, Doron. It's not that we "don't get it". Dispute your logic circles, contradictions, inconsistencies, misuse of terminology, and all the rest, we do "get it". Not only do we "get it", we find it contorted, nonsensical, unnecessary, and trivial.

See? We do "get it". We also reject it. Those are not mutually exclusive concepts.
You did not support the claim that you get it.

As a result your post is meaningless.
 
The Ontological basis of Logic​

No logical consequence is determined unless A is comparable with not-A. Let not-A be represented as B. There can be 16 different logical connectives that are the result of A B comparison.

Flag 0 = the compared holds

Flag 1 = the compared does not hold

F = the binary result of the comparison does not hold

T = the binary result of the comparison holds

R = the binary result

Each logical connective is determined by 4 A B comparisons, as follows:
Code:
A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R  
0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T   
0 1 F   0 1 F   0 1 T   0 1 T   0 1 F   0 1 F   0 1 T   0 1 T   
1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 T   1 0 T   1 0 T   1 0 T 
1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F


A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R  
0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T   
0 1 F   0 1 F   0 1 T   0 1 T   0 1 F   0 1 F   0 1 T   0 1 T   
1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 T   1 0 T   1 0 T   1 0 T 
1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T


Each binary T result of the 16 logical connectives is ontologically based on identical flags (0 0 , 1 1) or different flags (0 1 , 1 0). "0A,0B" and "1A,1B" are ontologically reduced to "flagA is as flagB", where " 0A,1B" and " 1A,0B" are ontologically reduced to "flagA is not as flagB".

By ontological reduction the two building-blocks of Logic are:

flagA is as flagA

flagA is not as flagB

"flagA is as flagB" is the non-local aspect of any binary comparison, where "flagA is not as flagB" is the local aspect of any binary comparison.
 
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Funny, that's not what Proper_classWP says. Once again, you are abusing standard terms to be something they're not.

Read This:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor's_paradox

Since the cardinal numbers are well-ordered by indexing with the ordinal numbers (see Cardinal number, formal definition), this also establishes that there is no greatest ordinal number; conversely, the latter statement implies Cantor's paradox. By applying this indexing to the Burali-Forti paradox we also conclude that the cardinal numbers are a proper class rather than a set, and (at least in ZFC or in von Neumann–Bernays–Gödel set theory) it follows from this that there is a bijection between the class of cardinals and the class of all sets. Since every set is a subset of this latter class, and every cardinality is the cardinality of a set (by definition!) this intuitively means that the "cardinality" of the collection of cardinals is greater than the cardinality of any set: it is more infinite than any true infinity. This is the paradoxical nature of Cantor's "paradox".
 
Such a declaration, that the ‘nature’ of your ‘research’ is ‘pre-axiomatic’, is just, well, an axiom of your notions and one that specifically lacks self consistency. In that, being self inconsistent, it certainly does represent the nature of your ‘research’.
You do not understand the difference between defining\using an axiom and ontologically research it.
 
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You did not support the claim that you get it.

As a result your post is meaningless.

My claim has been well-supported throughout this and other threads. You, on the other hand, have failed repeatedly to support yours. You cannot even define your terms, so absolutely nothing from you beyond that has meaning.
 
The Ontological basis of Logic​

No logical consequence is determined unless A is comparable with not-A. Let not-A be represented as B.

No. Let's represent not-A by not-A. No point trying to obscure it's origins.

There can be 16 different logical connectives that are the result of A B comparison.

No. The only free variable is A. Not-A is dependent on A.

Flag 0 = the compared holds

Flag 1 = the compared does not hold

F = the binary result of the comparison does not hold

T = the binary result of the comparison holds

Such over-abundance of notation. How about you pick one system - either 0/1 or F/T - and stick with it? I favor F/T for this application.

R = the binary result

Each logical connective is determined by 4 A B 2 A/not-A comparisons, as follows:
Code:
[strike]A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R 
0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T
0 1 F   0 1 F   0 1 T   0 1 T   0 1 F   0 1 F   0 1 T   0 1 T
1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 T   1 0 T   1 0 T   1 0 T
1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F   1 1 F


A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R   A B R
0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T   0 0 F   0 0 T
0 1 F   0 1 F   0 1 T   0 1 T   0 1 F   0 1 F   0 1 T   0 1 T
1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 F   1 0 T   1 0 T   1 0 T   1 0 T
1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T   1 1 T[/STRIKE]

 A  not-A  R     A  not-A  R     A  not-A  R    A  not-A  R
=== ===== ===   === ===== ===   === ===== ===  === ===== ===
 F    T    F     F    T    T     F    T    F    F    T    T 
 T    F    F     T    F    F     T    F    T    T    F    T


Ok, I fixed that part for you. You should try fixing the rest if you can. Here's some help: Note that the formulae for the above truth tables are F, not-A, A, and T, respectively.

It's all kind of trivial, though. I don't know why you are bothering.
 
Let's say, just for a moment, Doron, we look beyond the contradictions (not-A is different from not-A), inconsistencies (notation shifts from 0/1 to F/T), and misuse of terminology (ontological). What are we left with? Nothing more than a recitation of truth tables from any introductory text on boolean logic.

Why do you dwell on the trivial, and why do you first contort it so?
 
You do not understand the difference between defining\using an axiom and ontologically research it.

You do not understand the difference between simply making inconsistent declarations and actually doing ‘research’.

No.

You fixed nothing, you simply do not understand the ontological reduction of Logic.

Jsfisher you simply cannot get things beyond your box.

Well your ‘ontological thinking’ certainly appears to have reduced your ‘logic’.
 
You do not understand the difference between simply making inconsistent declarations and actually doing ‘research’.



Well your ‘ontological thinking’ certainly appears to have reduced your ‘logic’.


Let's say, just for a moment, Doron, we look beyond the contradictions (not-A is different from not-A), inconsistencies (notation shifts from 0/1 to F/T), and misuse of terminology (ontological). What are we left with? Nothing more than a recitation of truth tables from any introductory text on boolean logic.

Why do you dwell on the trivial, and why do you first contort it so?


At least I understand the meaning of things like "not-A".



Your reasoning is "nothing more, nothing less" than X, where X is reseachable.

My reasoning is "more, less" than X, where X is reseachable.

By "more,less" reasoning we think out of the box of X, which enables us to get X better:

[qimg]http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/OMF.jpg[/qimg]​

My reasoning replaces your reasoning.
 
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Ok, I fixed that part for you. You should try fixing the rest if you can. Here's some help: Note that the formulae for the above truth tables are F, not-A, A, and T, respectively.

I'm wondering what these truth-tables are supposed to represent? Unless you give an operator, no one knows how things are compared. That applies to doron's as well as your TT's.

In the current form they simply mean that a given set of two values can have any result. Don't see any logic there. So, what's the comparison? Equal, not equal, bigger than, less than, bigger or equal than, less or equal than, and, or, not, exclusive or?

Maybe i'm missing something, but i have learned that a truth table applies to a certain function/comparison/logic. So, one could state that 1 AND 0 = 0, or that 1 XOR 0 = 1, or that 1 AND NOT 0 = 1 ..... But things like 0 0 = 0 followed by 0 0 = 1 is a bit of confusing.

Greetings,

Chris
 
I'm wondering what these truth-tables are supposed to represent? Unless you give an operator, no one knows how things are compared. That applies to doron's as well as your TT's.

In the current form they simply mean that a given set of two values can have any result. Don't see any logic there. So, what's the comparison? Equal, not equal, bigger than, less than, bigger or equal than, less or equal than, and, or, not, exclusive or?

Maybe i'm missing something, but i have learned that a truth table applies to a certain function/comparison/logic. So, one could state that 1 AND 0 = 0, or that 1 XOR 0 = 1, or that 1 AND NOT 0 = 1 ..... But things like 0 0 = 0 followed by 0 0 = 1 is a bit of confusing.

Greetings,

Chris


The standard view of the 16 logical connectives:

Code:
A	 0 0 1 1	
B	 0 1 0 1	

----------------
0	 F F F F	Contradiction
A AND B	 F F F T	Conjunction
A not→ B F F T F	A not implies B
A	 F F T T	Proposition A
A←not B	 F T F F	B not implies A
B	 F T F T	Proposition B
A XOR B	 F T T F	Exclusive disjunction
A OR B	 F T T T	Disjunction
A NOR B	 T F F F	Joint denial
A NXOR B T F F T	Biconditional
NOT B	 T F T F	not B
A ← B	 T F T T	 B implies A
NOT A	 T T F F	not A
A → B	 T T F T	A implies B
A NAND B T T T F	Alternative denial
1	 T T T T	Tautology


The ontological view of the 16 logical connectives, where each connective
is some combination of the non-local with the local:

Code:
A	 0 0 1 1	
B	 0 1 0 1	

----------------
0	 F F F F	No measurement
A AND B	 F F F T	Full non-local
A not→ B F F T F	Local A
A	 F F T T	Full non-local , Local A
A←not B	 F T F F	Local B
B	 F T F T	Full non-local , Local B
A XOR B	 F T T F	Local A, Local B
A OR B	 F T T T	Full non-local , Local A , Local B
A NOR B	 T F F F	Empty non-local
A NXOR B T F F T	Full non-local , Empty non-local
NOT B	 T F T F	Local A , Empty non-local
A ← B	 T F T T	Full non-local , Local A , Empty non-local
NOT A	 T T F F	Local B , Empty non-local
A → B	 T T F T	Full non-local , Local B , Empty non-local
A NAND B T T T F	Local A , Local B , Empty non-local
1	 T T T T	F. non-local , Local A , E. non-local , Local B


If Non-locality (0 0 , 1 1) or Locality (0 1 , 1 0) are related to the same connective (by T value) more than once, then their unique properties are ignored (Fullness and Emptiness or A and B are ignored):

Code:
A	 0 0 1 1	
B	 0 1 0 1	

----------------
0	 F F F F	No measurement
A AND B	 F F F T	Full non-local
A not→ B F F T F	Local A
A	 F F T T	Full non-local , Local A
A←not B	 F T F F	Local B
B	 F T F T	Full non-local , Local B
A XOR B	 F T T F	Local  
A OR B	 F T T T	Full non-local , Local  
A NOR B	 T F F F	Empty non-local
A NXOR B T F F T	Non-local   
NOT B	 T F T F	Local A , Empty non-local
A ← B	 T F T T	Non-local , Local A  
NOT A	 T T F F	Local B , Empty non-local
A → B	 T T F T	Non-local , Local B  
A NAND B T T T F	Local  , Empty non-local
1	 T T T T	Non-local , Local
 
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Your reasoning is "nothing more, nothing less" than X, where X is reseachable....


You again completely ignore any discussion of deficiencies in your ideas and instead just sling insult.

Some things just never change.
 
You again completely ignore any discussion of deficiencies in your ideas and instead just sling insult.

Some things just never change.

I do not ignore your "nothing more, nothing less then X" reasoning.

On the contrary, I replace it by the better "more, less then X" reasoning.


"nothing more, nothing less then X" reasoning cannot get the "more, less then X" reasoning.

On the contrary "more, less then X" reasoning gets the "nothing more, nothing less then X" reasoning, exposes its fundamental fallacies and its inability to understand fundamentals like Actual non-finite, Collection, Fusion, The ontological foundations of Logic, The limits of the researchable, and more …, and replaces it.

Your "nothing more, nothing less then X" dies from entropy like any closed system.

This is exactly the reason why you are unable to understand the first post of this thread and in particular the reasoning of Entropy of mathematical frameworks as shown, for example, by this part:
doronshadmi said:
-------------------------------------------------------

The non-local ur-element is the maximum entropy of itself (no differences can be found within it). Also a local ur-element is the maximum entropy of itself (no differences can be found within it).

Maximum entropy exists in both non-locality and locality, but they are opposite by their self nature, so if non-locality and locality are associated, then a non-entropic domain is created.

The history of such a domain is written by symmetry, where at the first stage symmetry is so strong that no outcome of this domain has a unique identity, and all we have is a superposition of identities.

Symmetry is collapsed because the opposite properties of non-locality and locality are expressed more and more until each local ur-element has a unique identity of its own.

This uniqueness, which is anti-entropic by nature, cannot exist without the association between the non-local and the local.

Opposite properties do not contradict each other, if they are based on NXOR connective.

A NXOR connective enables the existence of NXOR\XOR logic (non-locality and locality are associated, and associated realms have more than one entropy level).

A XOR connective does not enable the existence of NXOR\XOR logic (non-locality and locality are isolated, and isolated realms have maximum entropy).

Please read pages 13-14 of my work called Eventors ( http://www.geocities.com/complementa...y/Eventors.pdf ).

I think that the organic approach (the associations between the non-local and the local) is the accurate way to understand the realm that we are an inseparable part of it.

--------------------------------------------------

Let us re-examine these cases:

Case 1: associated realms have more than one entropy level.

Case 2: isolated realms have maximum entropy.

In case 1 NXOR is associated with XOR and we get an open realm because both NXOR and XOR go beyond their self state of maximum (and opposite state of) entropy.

In case 2 there is no association between NXOR and XOR, and each opposite is closed upon its own maximum entropy, and nothing exists beyond these closed and isolated opposite maximum entropies.

In a complementary realm, each opposite is opened to an "off spring" outcome, which is beyond its own isolated state (an isolated realm has maximum entropy).

EDIT:

The "off spring" outcome of NXOR-XOR reasoning ( pages 26-28 of http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/OMPT.pdf ) is exactly the intermediate and researchable realm of collections, that are able to measure the magnitude of their ontological limits, known as Emptiness and Fullness.
 
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I do not ignore your "nothing more, nothing less then X" reasoning.

On the contrary, I replace it by the better "more, less then X" reasoning.


More dodging and weaving, I see. Can't address, for example, the contradiction head-on?

You based your whole recent recitation on having A and not-A independent of each other. Mutually independent, as you have been known to say. That's a contradiction you've yet to reconcile.

And how about that explanation of what you mean by "distinction is a first-order property". Still working on that, are you?
 
You based your whole recent recitation on having A and not-A independent of each other.

You are wrong again.

Mutually independent is exactly connected and isolated, and your closed "nothing more, nothing less" closed entropic reasoning cannot get it.

For example: By your closed reasoning you deal only with A because you determine that not-A is the complement of A.

Well you are wrong, not-A is not necessarily the complement of A (and I am not talking about Intuitionistic logic).

Still working on that, are you?
No.
 
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Well you are wrong, not-A is not necessarily the complement of A (and I am not talking about Intuitionistic logic).

So you admit the contradiction is intentional. Very convenient for your ideas. All it takes is a single contradiction, than everything, even gibberish, follows.
 
So you admit the contradiction is intentional. Very convenient for your ideas. All it takes is a single contradiction, than everything, even gibberish, follows.

No. You show that by your "nothing more, nothing less" reasoinig does not able to get the "more,less" reasoning, where "nothing more, nothing less" reasoinig is nothing but a single and particuler case of it.

You still do not get the fact that I am talking about the ontological level of logic that enables the very existence of propositions and logical connectives.
 
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You still do not get the fact that I am talking about the ontological level of logic that enables the very existence of propositions and logical connectives.


You have done nothing to demonstrate you understand the term, ontological. You have a long history of misusing simple terminology, so why should this be any different.

That aside, you are still dodging the basic fact you are founding things on a contradiction. You aver not-A is independent of A. Such things are possible only in Wonderland.
 
Well it looks like were have entered a new Doronophrase phase. Our ‘local only’, ‘serial’ and ‘non-ontological’ ‘thinking’ is now “nothing more, nothing less” and “closed entropic” ‘reasoning’. Too bad Doron does not make an effort to actually understanding the words he uses as opposed to just using them to label the thinking of others.
 

What you originally said, what I replied to, and what you responded to are three different things.

You orginally said:
Again,

By the standard notion a proper class is a collection that logically cannot be or it is too big in order to be considered as a set.

" Logically can't be " or "Too big" means that it is impossible to define such a collection in terms of set.
Please show me in your original message where you talked about Cantor's Paradox. I never brought it up.

Cantor's Paradox only talks about there is no greatest cardinal number. It does not talk about "a collection that logically cannot be or it is too big in order to be considered as a set". It also deflates your idea that "the full set is definable and proper classes are avoided, simply because only the full set is an actual non-finite". It doesn't matter if you have a finite, an empty, or an infinite set.


Please define the following terms:

  • "the magnitude of existence of its members"
  • Emptiness
  • Intermediate
  • Fullness
 
Well it looks like were have entered a new Doronophrase phase. Our ‘local only’, ‘serial’ and ‘non-ontological’ ‘thinking’ is now “nothing more, nothing less” and “closed entropic” ‘reasoning’. Too bad Doron does not make an effort to actually understanding the words he uses as opposed to just using them to label the thinking of others.

You have done nothing to demonstrate you understand the term, ontological. You have a long history of misusing simple terminology, so why should this be any different.

That aside, you are still dodging the basic fact you are founding things on a contradiction. You aver not-A is independent of A. Such things are possible only in Wonderland.


Let us demonstrate your failure to get the ontological basis of Logic.

doronshadmi said:
Let us demonstrate the failure to get the ontological basis of Logic by using the law of contradiction A AND not-A. A represents Emptiness. By the standard reasoning not-A is not-Emptiness where only Emptiness (only A) is considered. In that case Emptiness AND not-Emptiness is a contradiction because Emptiness cannot be empty AND non-empty.

By using an ontological view, not Emptiness has another level of existence, which is not Emptiness. If Emptiness is less, then not-Emptiness is more, so exactly as less AND more define the intermediate level of existence which is more than less AND less than more, so Emptiness AND not-Emptiness define the intermediate level of existence that is more than Emptiness and less than not-Emptiness.

Some claims " "more or less" are not crisp things so less AND more maybe define an intermediate existence which is more than less AND less than more, but it is impossible with a crisp state of existence like emptiness, we cannot define an intermediate state of existence between emptiness AND non-emptiness ".

This argument is wrong because we are using the crisp complement of Emptiness, which is Fullness. So the result of Emptiness AND Fullness is an intermediate level of existence, which is not totally empty AND not totally full. Furthermore, by using the intermediate level of existence as a researchable level, one defines Non-locality and Locality as the signatures of the extreme limits as they appear under the intermediate state of existence. For example: Emptiness is too weak for direct research, where Fullness is too strong for direct research. The intermediate result between Emptiness and Fullness is used to research them indirectly (to find their signature), as follows:

[ ] is a domain that exists at the intermediate level, where [ ] is used to distinguish between in_the_domain, out_the_domain binary states.

empty in [ ] NOR empty out [ ] is a non-local signature of Emptiness w.r.t the domain.

full in [_]_ AND full out [_]_ is a non-local signature of Fullness w.r.t the domain.

empty in [ ]_ XOR full out [ ]_ is a local signature of Emptiness w.r.t the domain.

full in [_] XOR empty out [_] is a local signature of Fullness w.r.t the domain.

By ignoring the difference between Emptiness and Fullness [ ],[_]_ (NOR with AND is NXOR) are reduced to Non-locality, and [ ]_,[_] (XOR with XOR is XOR) are reduced to Locality (we get NXOR\XOR Logic). OM's NXOR\XOR Logic cannot be understood by the standard view of Logic.


So as you see jsfisher AND The Man (jsfisher AND The Man is not a contradiction, because A=jsfisher=The Man="nothing more, nothing less" closed entropic reasoning of A AND A) OM is a new framework that cannot be understood from your "nothing more, nothing less" reasoning, because by your A AND A reasoning you deal only with A (you cannot get the ontological basis of A AND not-A) and as a result A AND not-A is indeed a contradiction by the "nothing more, nothing less" reasoning. But this is your limited closed entropic reasoning, which is definitely NOT OM's reasoning.
 
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...<snip>...

Still trying to duck the issue I see. You are incapable of addressing the contradiction from your insistence that A and not-A are independent, so instead you continue to obscure things with other contradictions and inconsistencies, generously salted with insult.

Say hello to the Red Queen for us, if you wouldn't mind.
 
You are kidding, right? It was in the very post you quoted. Or did you mean any of your other, numerous contradictions?

Let us say that I don't get the contradiction.

Since you get the contradiction you can also explicitly show it in detailes by using the post I quoted.

So, please explain it to the people of this forum.
 
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What is it, then?

If A is black and not-A is red, then not-A is not the complement of A.

As you see, not-A is not necessarily the complement of A.

I go further than that.

By using the ontological viewpoint of A;not-A I explicitly show how a researchable mathematical universe is exactly the result of complement concepts like Emptiness (A) and Fullness (not-A).
 
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Let us demonstrate your failure to get the ontological basis of Logic.

So as you see jsfisher AND The Man (jsfisher AND The Man is not a contradiction, because A=jsfisher=The Man="nothing more, nothing less" closed entropic reasoning of A AND A) OM is a new framework that cannot be understood from your "nothing more, nothing less" reasoning, because by your A AND A reasoning you deal only with A (you cannot get the ontological basis of A AND not-A) and as a result A AND not-A is indeed a contradiction by the "nothing more, nothing less" reasoning. But this is your limited closed entropic reasoning, which is definitely NOT OM's reasoning.

Sorry that you don't understand that the phrase "jsfisher AND The Man" does not mean "jsfisher=The Man". I've never taken a logic course or any math/programming classes and even I know that jsfisher does not equal The Man. I also know that The Man does not equal jsfisher.

If we use A as a feature of some object (i.e. "round") then not-A would mean "not-round", but by your logic, you say that not-A would be "the color blue".

"Hey look over there at that round and not-round thing!"
"What thing? You mean this round thing?"
"No, the other round and not-round thing over there."
"This not-round thing?"
"Of course not silly, it's the round and not-round thing right in front of you."
"You mean this blue ball?!?"

Let us say that I don't get the contradiction.

Since you get the contradiction you can also explicitly show it in detailes.

So, please explain it to the people of this forum.

Done!
 
Sorry that you don't understand that the phrase "jsfisher AND The Man" does not mean "jsfisher=The Man".

You did not get it.

I mean that they are using the same reasoning, which prevents form them to get OM's reasoning.


EDIT:
If we use A as a feature of some object (i.e. "round") then not-A would mean "not-round" ...

In the case of "round" AND "not-round" if you are talking about a property of the same object you get a contradiction, which also can be avoided if these proprties are in a superposition with each other, or A is "round" by one research and "not-round by another research. This is, by the way the ontological viewpoint of wavicle.

My main claim is this: Standard logic (where P AND not-P is a contradiction) is a limited and weak framework, that cannot be considered anymore as standard, and should be replaced by another standard, which is more comprehensive (where contradiction is not its main principle).

For example: "full in [_]_ AND full out [_]_ is a non-local signature of Fullness w.r.t the domain" cannot be understood in terms of P AND not-P (the contradiction of Standard Logic).
 
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If A is black and not-A is red, then not-A is not the complement of A.

As you see, not-A is not necessarily the complement of A.

I go further than that.

By using the ontological viewpoint of A;not-A I explicitly show how a researchable mathematical universe is exactly the result of complement concepts like Emptiness (A) and Fullness (not-A).


Not ‘A’ or not ‘black’ would also be blue, green, white, yellow ect.. everything that is ‘not black’. By defining ‘A’ as ‘back’ you also define everything else as not ‘A’. We can ‘generalize’ (to correctly use one of Dorons’s favorite words) this consideration by defining what constitutes ‘black’. As far as reflected or emitted spectrums go black is simply the absence of any perceivable spectrum. Not black then becomes the presence of any perceivable spectrum. They are not ‘complements’ they are opposites. In the case of white which is the presence of all perceivable spectrums we could break that down by wavelength, 'A' being up to and including a certain wavelength and not 'A' being anything above that wavelength. In this case 'A' and not 'A' are not opposites but complements. In the first example no spectrum AND all spectrum is a contradiction as they are opposites. In the second example wavelengths lower then and including some cutoff AND wavelengths above that cutoff is not a contradiction but a complementation by resulting in all wavelengths. So it all depends on being very specific about what you are taking about Doron. In fact by asserting that you are not considering 'A' AND not 'A' as being complimentary means that you or considering them as opposites, thus a contradiction. It should also be noted that jsfisher’s point still holds, once you define 'A' you have defined not 'A', they are always mutually dependent whether you are considering them opposites or compliment parts of some whole.


ETA:
Let’s take another example a coin one side defined as ‘heads’ and the other as ‘tails’. A proper coin by that definition must have a ‘heads’ side AND a ‘tails’ side, that is not a contradiction but a complementation of that definition of the sides on a proper coin. For any one flip of the coin the result ‘heads’ AND ‘tails’ is a contradiction while ‘heads’ OR ‘tails’ is a tautology. So again Doron it comes down to being very specific in what you are talking about and using terminology in the applicable context.
 
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The Man said:
Not ‘A’ or not ‘black’ would also be blue, green, white, yellow ect.. everything that is ‘not black’. By defining ‘A’ as ‘back’ you also define everything else as not ‘A’. We can ‘generalize’ (to correctly use one of Dorons’s favorite words) this consideration by defining what constitutes ‘black’.

It is not a generalization. All you did is to force A and not-A (that can be interpreted also as two arbitrary different things) to fit to your one A's reasoning.


ETA:
Let’s take another example a coin one side defined as ‘heads’ and the other as ‘tails’. A proper coin by that definition must have a ‘heads’ side AND a ‘tails’ side, that is not a contradiction but a complementation of that definition of the sides on a proper coin. For any one flip of the coin the result ‘heads’ AND ‘tails’ is a contradiction while ‘heads’ OR ‘tails’ is a tautology. So again Doron it comes down to being very specific in what you are talking about and using terminology in the applicable context.

Very good example The Man.

In The Man's example we deal with already existing and researched things, and avoid any ontological viewpoint of the fundamental terms that enable their existence.

Let us follow this limited viewpoint (where Ontology is avoided).

In this case, we have an existing thing, called coin that has two properties.

The properties (called ‘heads’ AND ‘tails’) are observed by flips. Each flip returns one and only one result out of two possible results.

OM calls the ability to return one and only one result out of n possible results, Locality.

Local result A AND not-A is indeed a contradiction, because Locals cannot be simultaneously in more than a one state (as The Man says: "For any one flip of the coin the result ‘heads’ AND ‘tails’ is a contradiction").

But this is not the one and only one way to get A AND not-A.

Alternative 1: A AND not-A is the superposition of the possible results of each flip, and by superposition A AND not-A is not a contradiction.

Since OM uses Distinction as its first-order property, alternative 1 holds at OM.

Alternative 2: The researched thing is non-local. In this case the coin's flip example has to be replaced by another one, for example Line's location.

If we draw a line segment on a particular location that is determined by a point, the line segment is on AND not-on the point, and there is no contradiction because on AND not-on is the very nature of Non-locality (represented by a line segment, in this case) exactly as the coin's flip represents Locality.

Since OM defines Non-locality as one of its building-blocks in addition to Locality, then, again, A AND not-A is not necessarily a contradiction at OM.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let us carefully research A by using an ontological viewpoint.

A's existence is the result of an interaction of two opposites.

For example, OM's researchable universe is the result of the complementation between Emptiness AND Fullness, where Emptiness is the opposite of Fullness and vice-versa.

The result, called A, is not totally empty AND not totally full, which enables the research.

At this non-total state (A) one defines the concept of collection, which its existence is stronger than Emptiness AND weaker than Fullness.

By using a collection as a research tool, one defines Emptiness as "that has no predecessor" (value 0) and Fullness as "that has no successor" (value ).

These values are the magnitudes of existence of the researched and they are taken indirectly by the intermediate level of existence of collection (the non-total state A). These values cannot be defined directly because Emptiness on its own is too weak and Fullness on its own is too strong.

At A one defines the researchable states of Locality AND Non-Locality, where Locality AND Non-locality are mutually independent of each other, and together they are used in order to define A's researchable universe.

At A's researchable universe, P AND not-P is necessarily a contradiction iff P is Local.

Jsffisher's and The Man's "nothing more, nothing less" reasoning must be local, because P is "nothing more AND nothing less" (nothing beyond P is researched and we get a closed entropic reasoning that is too weak in order to deal with Non-locality or Distinction as its first-order properties).
 
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If A is black and not-A is red, then not-A is not the complement of A.

If A is black, then not-A isn't red. Try again.

On the other hand, if you really, really, meant something else entirely, like for example, B is an element of not-A, then that's different. Of course, that isn't what you said. What you said, like most things you have said, was an outright contradiction. Did you really mean to let A be something and let B be something different from A?

Well, ok, laying aside the gibberish, what's the point? Why can't B just be a free variable like A? What advantage was gained by puncturing the proper class of possibilities for B?

Moreover, and this is key, since now there are proper classes in your premises, you are in no position to conclude you avoided proper classes.

You just cannot speak without contradiction, can you?
 
It is not a generalization. All you did is to force A and not-A (that can be interpreted also as two arbitrary different things) to fit to your one A's reasoning.

“can be interpreted also as two arbitrary different things”, only by the ignorant.



Very good example The Man.

In The Man's example we deal with already existing and researched things, and avoid any ontological viewpoint of the fundamental terms that enable their existence.

Let us follow this limited viewpoint (where Ontology is avoided).

In this case, we have an existing thing, called coin that has two properties.

The properties (called ‘heads’ AND ‘tails’) are observed by flips. Each flip returns one and only one result out of two possible results.

OM calls the ability to return one and only one result out of n possible results, Locality.

Local result A AND not-A is indeed a contradiction, because Locals cannot be simultaneously in more than a one state (as The Man says: "For any one flip of the coin the result ‘heads’ AND ‘tails’ is a contradiction").

But this is not the one and only one way to get A AND not-A.

Alternative 1: A AND not-A is the superposition of the possible results of each flip, and by superposition A AND not-A is not a contradiction.

Since OM uses Distinction as its first-order property, alternative 1 holds at OM.

Alternative 2: The researched thing is non-local. In this case the coin's flip example has to be replaced by another one, for example Line's location.

If we draw a line segment on a particular location that is determined by a point, the line segment is on AND not-on the point, and there is no contradiction because on AND not-on is the very nature of Non-locality (represented by a line segment, in this case) exactly as the coin's flip represents Locality.

Since OM defines Non-locality as one of its building-blocks in addition to Locality, then, again, A AND not-A is not necessarily a contradiction at OM.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let us carefully research A by using an ontological viewpoint.

A's existence is the result of an interaction of two opposites.

For example, OM's researchable universe is the result of the complementation between Emptiness AND Fullness, where Emptiness is the opposite of Fullness and vice-versa.

The result, called A, is not totally empty AND not totally full, which enables the research.

At this non-total state (A) one defines the concept of collection, which its existence is stronger than Emptiness AND weaker than Fullness.

By using a collection as a research tool, one defines Emptiness as "that has no predecessor" (value 0) and Fullness as "that has no successor" (value ).

These values are the magnitudes of existence of the researched and they are taken indirectly by the intermediate level of existence of collection (the non-total state A). These values cannot be defined directly because Emptiness on its own is too weak and Fullness on its own is too strong.

At A one defines the researchable states of Locality AND Non-Locality, where Locality AND Non-locality are mutually independent of each other, and together they are used in order to define A's researchable universe.

At A's researchable universe, P AND not-P is necessarily a contradiction iff P is Local.

Jsffisher's and The Man's "nothing more, nothing less" reasoning must be local, because P is "nothing more AND nothing less" (nothing beyond P is researched and we get a closed entropic reasoning that is too weak in order to deal with Non-locality or Distinction as its first-order properties).

Well besides your normal misuse of terminology and word salad, I’ll just comment on a couple of key points. Superposition in mathematical terms is just a linear addition. You seem to continue to confuse the addition inference of ‘and’ with the logical conjunctive function of ‘AND’. The probability of getting ‘heads’ on any one flip is 50% as is the probability of getting ‘tails’. A superposition of these outcomes (50% + 50%) gives us a 100% probability that there will be an outcome of ‘heads’ or ‘tails’. Were this to be a ‘superposition’ of opposites as you claim your ‘emptiness’ and ‘fullness’ are the probability of one would be say 50% and the other -50%. The resulting superposition would be a 0% probability of one or the other of those outcomes. This type of event or outcome suppression is not unusual in quantum mechanics where the superposition of wave functions (or probability amplitudes) is a fundamental feature. The superposition of equal opposites results in 0 the superposition of all the complements that make up a whole (some of which could be opposing, equal or not) results in that whole. In fact if we do a superposition of your ‘measurement of existence’, 0 for your ‘emptiness’ and ∞ for your ‘fullness’, we get 0 + ∞ = ∞ or just your ‘fullness’.

Your notion about lines and points is also flawed, as usual. A point is either on a line or it is not and the line either includes that point or it does not. The phrase “the line segment is on AND not-on the point” is just your typical non specific nonsense. A line segment is not ‘on’ a point although the point might be on that line segment.
 
The Man said:
A superposition of these outcomes (50% + 50%) gives us a 100% probability that there will be an outcome of ‘heads’ or ‘tails’.

For a contradiction we need 100% probability for A AND 100% probability for not-A, where A is Local.

Let us say that A is local (for example: the coin's flip example). Since each flip has 50% probability for A ('heads') AND 50% probability for not-A ('tails') under superposition, we do not have a contradiction under flip's superposition, because:

50% probability for A ('heads') AND 50% probability for not-A ('tails') = flip's superposition

Is NOT

100% probability for A ('heads') AND 100% probability for not-A ('tails') = flip's contradiction.

In other words, thank you The Man for helping to support my argument.

(by the way, 50% probability for A ('heads') AND -50% probability for not-A ('tails')(or vice versa) = no flip is tended to collapse to a 100% actual result of A ('heads') OR not-A ('tails') local result)

The Man said:
Were this to be a ‘superposition’ of opposites as you claim your ‘emptiness’ and ‘fullness’ are the probability of one would be say 50% and the other -50%.

No, the intermediate result that is not 100% empty AND not 100% full enables us to research, in the first place. You mix between the ontological foundations of the researchable (which are Emptiness and Fullness) and some existing researchable result, where a researchable result must be more than 100% empty AND less than 100% full, otherwise it is not researchable. The magnitude of existence of Emptiness (value 0) or Fullness (value ) can be defined only indirectly, by using, for example an existing tool like set, that its magnitude of existence is more than 100% Emptiness (more than 0) AND less than 100% Fullness (less than ).

The Man said:
In fact if we do a superposition of your ‘measurement of existence’, 0 for your ‘emptiness’ and ∞ for your ‘fullness’, we get 0 + ∞ = ∞ or just your ‘fullness’.

0 is not Emptiness and is not Fullness. The intermediate ontological result that is not 100% empty AND not 100% full enables us to indirectly research (by using a set) the magnitude of the existence of Emptiness (value 0) and the magnitude of the existence of Fullness (value ). Also (the magnitude of exitence of Fullness) is not ∞ (the magnitude of existence of a non-finite collection).

In other words The Man, you simply do not understand with what you deal here, and make a word salad out of it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, let us check what you have to say about the Line\point example.

The Man said:
Your notion about lines and points is also flawed, as usual. A point is either on a line or it is not and the line either includes that point or it does not. The phrase “the line segment is on AND not-on the point” is just your typical non specific nonsense. A line segment is not ‘on’ a point although the point might be on that line segment.

Here you trivially and artificially force the local view of Line\point interaction ("A point is either on a line or it is not and the line either includes that point or it does not.") and brutally ignore the non-local view of this interaction, which is (by basically using your example):

"A line is (on the point) AND (not the point) and it does not include the point, because it is an atom, exactly as the point is an atom (the line and the point ar not derived from each other).


In other words The Man, you simply do not understand with what you deal here, and make a word salad out of it.

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In general, you are a living proof of why standard reasoning is too weak in order to deal with OM's reasoning.
 
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Some correction of my previous post:

Instead of:

"A line is (on the point) AND (not the point) and it does not include the point, because it is an atom, exactly as the point is an atom (the line and the point ar not derived from each other).

it has to be:

"A line is (on the point) AND (not on the point) and it does not include the point, because it is an atom, exactly as the point is an atom (the line and the point ar not derived from each other)."
 
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