First, it was noted that according to Foster's doctor, the initial dose Foster was prescribed was one 50 mg tablet of Desyrel (also known as Trazodone), to be taken at bedtime. The doctor said Foster could increase that to 3 tablets (i.e., 150 mg).
No, the doctor didn't say he "could increase that to 3", implying he was giving Foster just 50mg and if that didn't help he could take more. The doctor said "I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was to start with one at bedtime and move up to three."
Note the lack of any option given to Foster there. The doctor wanted Foster on 150mg of Desyrel.
The recommended starting Desyrel dose when treating depression is 150 mg per day (divided into two or three doses per day). ... snip ... The maximum recommended dose of Desyrel is 400 mg total per day, although people who have been hospitalized due to their depression may take up to 600 mg per day.
What did the doctor prescribe Foster again? "I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was to start with one at bedtime and move up to three."
150mg a day. And remember, the doctor prescribed this for Foster after a daytime call. I don't know how many prescriptions
you've taken, BAC, but in the past when
I've been given a medication in the afternoon that I'm supposed to take three times a day, I start with the one evening dose that first day, and
don't take all three doses at once.
The second source says the same thing ... that the initial dose, if used for depression is 150 mg, not 50 mg.
Which is exactly what Foster was prescribed. Three 50mg pills equals 150mg, you know.
DESYREL is indicated for the treatment of depression. ... snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for outpatients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses.
Which, again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day, taken in divided doses (three 50mg pills).
When prescribed for insomnia and sleep disturbance, the usual dose for trazodone is 50–100 mg at bedtime, but some patients may need doses as high as 150–200 mg. ... snip ... For treatment of depression, trazodone is gradually increased to the effective therapeutic dosage of 300–400 mg, although some individuals may require dosages up to 600 mg.
The part that you didn't quote from that 2007 pamphlet explains that trazodone was once used widely for depression, but was replaced by modern drugs...drugs developed
after Foster's death in 1993. Now trazodone is used only off-label for insomnia, but back then it was a common antidepressant.
And in any case, note where it says "gradually increased to...300-400 mg"? Increased from what, do you think? Especially in light of everything below.
Symptom-Focused Psychiatric Drug Therapy for Managed Care, By Sonny Joseph ... snip ... For treatment of insomnia and as an adjunctive medication, the dosage range is 50 to 150 mg, given at bedtime for insomnia, and in divided doses for other purposes.
Foster was prescribed divided doses as in "other purposes" (like for depression), not a single dose (like for insomnia).
Two of the most commonly used medications for insomnia in the United States are ... snip ... and the antidepressant trazodone (Desyrel) used in the range of 25 to 150 mg, which is lower than its effective antidepressant dose.
It gives a range for insomnia, the
maximum of which is the
starting dose for depression (according to all these other sources that
you quoted). Foster was prescribed 150mg. So this quote is a wash (though it's unlikely for a doctor to immediately prescribe the maximum dosage).
Desyrel is prescribed for the treatment of depression. ... snip ...
The usual starting dosage is a total of 150 milligrams per day, divided into 2 or more smaller doses. Your doctor may increase your dose by 50 milligrams per day every 3 or 4 days. Total dosage should not exceed 400 milligrams per day, divided into smaller doses.
Which, again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day, taken in divided doses (three 50mg pills).
he daily dosage is usually administered in three divided doses. ... snip ... Depression - The optimal dosage is between 300 - 400 mg/day. It is suggested that a starting dose of 150 mg/day is given for the first week, increasing to 300 mg/day or higher according to the clinical response (600 mg/day dosage has been reported).
Which,
again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day.
For relief of depression. ... snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for out patients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses.
Which, once again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day, taken in divided doses (three 50mg pills).
DESYREL is indicated for the treatment of depression. ...snip ... An initial dose of 150 mg/day in divided doses is suggested. The dose may be increased by 50 mg/day every three to four days. The maximum dose for outpatients usually should not exceed 400 mg/day in divided doses.
Which, shockingly yet
again, is what Foster was prescribed. 150mg a day, taken in divided doses (three 50mg pills).
Adults—Oral, to start, 50 milligrams per dose taken three times a day, or 75 milligrams per dose taken two times a day. Your doctor may increase your dose if needed.
Gasp! And Foster was prescribed three 50mg doses a day!
The main indication for the use of trazodone is major depressive disorder. There is a clear dose-response relationship, with dosages of 250 to 600 mg a day being necessary for trazodone to have therapeutic benefit.
Main, but not only. An odd thing for you to quote in "support" of your position, since your entire argument is based on the fact that Desyrel has other uses. It also doesn't contradict all the other sources which say Desyrel should be started at 150mg (what Foster was prescribed), and increased only after physician review, to get to the higher dosages.
*snip list of links showing a range of dosages for insomnia, with the max at 150mg*
Again, it's extremely unlikely that a doctor would immediately prescribe the maximum dose of anything for a patient - if Watkins did so, it would make his prescription for Foster extremely unusual. Especially in light of the fact that Foster admitted to depression, and if Watkins gave him a prescription for depression, then the prescription would be utterly bog-standard and not unusual at all.
For the treatment of depression, the dose for adults is 150-600 mg per day. The initial starting dose usually is 150 mg per day. ... snip ... Doses of 25-75 mg are prescribed for insomnia.
You not only quoted this, you added a smiley afterwards. And yet, Foster's prescription was for 150mg, the depression dose listed, and
twice the maximum listed
right there for insomnia!
Even if we accept the possibility that ANTpogo is so driven to believe Foster's death was a suicide that he is willing to believe his one source over a dozen others (and I could have supplied hundreds more),
Yes, all those sources which say the depression dose for Desyrel is 150mg in divided doses, when Foster's doctor prescribed
exactly that.
And yet I have no trouble whatsoever finding sources that say that isn't true at all ... finding posters on the internet medical forums stating they were prescribed 100 mg or 150 mg for insomnia ...
"Rarely" is not "never". And scouring internet message boards to cherrypick anecdotal anyonymous posters isn't exactly a good statistical study of dosage variation.
finding websites with recommended dosages of up to 150 mg (just like Foster's prescription) for insomnia.
"Up to" is not "starting". 150 mg for insomnia right off the bat is odd. 150 mg for depression right off the bat, though, is exactly in line with all those sources
you quoted above.
No, that's only your interpretation. Watkins said nothing about needing to treat any depression in either FBI interview or notes.
"He did feel that he had some mild depression. I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was to start with one at bedtime and move up to three."
No he didn't "explicitly prescribe" the drug for depression and no he didn't "directly associate" it with depression. You are {wrong}.
I'm sure you think pretending to have "edited" your accusations like you did when Tricky admonished you is quite clever.
Oh my he was stressed and making mistakes. We should all commit suicide, I guess, because we are all pretty stressed right now.
Taking a page from Galileo, I see.
And more likely, his death was in some way related to the things he couldn't talk about that he was doing for the Clintons. Perhaps something to do with their blind trust ... which was behind schedule in being completed for some unknown reason? Or perhaps something to do with all that material that Clinton administration staffers were observed removing from Foster's office after his death (which the staffers later denied doing under oath)?
"We discussed the possibility of taking Axid or Zantac to help with any ulcer symptoms as he was under a lot of stress. He was concerned about the criticism they were getting and the long hours he was working at the White House. He did feel that he had some mild depression."
Funny that she didn't mention that to the investigators the first week after his death. Not till after that meeting in the Whitehouse. And say, what was that $286,000 payment to Lisa that Sheila handled about?
Are you really suggesting that Foster's
sister paid off Foster's
wife to cover up his death?
You mean prescribing one of the drugs most commonly prescribed for insomnia.
No, I mean prescribing one of the drugs most commonly prescribed in 1993 for depression.
Yeah ... the quack who could say with "100% certainty" it was a suicide. Despite all the facts I've brought to light here in this and the other thread. And that's not evidence. That's just a conclusion.
Dr. Bermanis the executive director of the
American Association of Suicidology. His bio reads "Director of the National Center for the Study and Prevention of Suicide at the Washington School of Psychiatry (1991-1995) and a tenured full-professor of Psychology at American University (1969-1991). Lanny has published 7 books, the latest being the 2nd edition of Adolescent Suicide: Assessment and Intervention, and more than 100 peer-reviewed articles in Suicidology and suicide prevention. He is the recipient of both AAS’s Shneidman and Dublin Awards for outstanding research contributions to Suicidology and to suicide prevention and a past-president (1984-1985) of AAS. Board certified as an ABPP diplomate in clinical psychology, he is an elected Fellow of the American Psychological Association and the International Academy of Suicide Research. He holds a BA degree from the Johns Hopkins University and a Ph.D. from the Catholic University of America."
But I'm sure he knows much less about suicide than
you do, BAC.
But I thought you just got done telling us what the doctor said is "irrelevant".
No, I said that the fact that
Watkins didn't conclude that Foster was clinically depressed is irrelevant, since Watkins was given neither the time nor opportunity to diagnose Foster properly.
And you've offered no evidence that the doctor prescribed the medication because Foster said he was a little depressed.
"[H]e was under a lot of stress. He was concerned about the criticism they were getting and the long hours he was working at the White House. He did feel that he had some mild depression. I started him on Desyrel, 50 mg. He was to start with one at bedtime and move up to three."
Yes, curious that we have such a dramatic change in what Sheila Anthony (who held a high office in the Clinton Department of Justice, by the way) said. For 8 days the record shows her saying one thing, then on day nine, shortly after a meeting in the Whitehouse attended by all those who dramatically changed their stories, she suddenly offers a completely different account. You don't have to be a skeptic to figure this out.
All we really know for certain (given Fiske's and Starr's ability to make up evidence like claiming Lisa Foster's "fighting depression" and the oven mitt) (and given and someone else's ability to create evidence like the suicide note) is that Foster never talked to any of them. Now a psychiatrist reportedly did tell the FBI he was contacted by Foster sister, Sheila on July 16th. But perhaps Shiela was only laying the groundwork for a later suicide claim?
So, you are claiming that Foster's sister was somehow both involved in the coverup of Foster's death by calling a psychiatrist on behalf of her brother the Friday before his death to "lay the groundwork" for a suicide claim...and yet spending
eight days after his death
denying that he was depressed and therefore potentially suicidal?
You know there are some very odd things about the note with the names of the psychiatrists. The Washington post reported on July 28 that "White House official searching the office of Vincent Foster, Jr. last week found a note indicating the 48 year- old deputy White House counsel may have considered psychiatric help shortly before he died". Then 2 days later a Washington Post article said the note was found in Foster automobile at Fort Marcy Park, and contained the name of TWO psychiatrists, not three. Then when the police report was issued, there were suddenly 3 names. And Miquel Rodriguez (Starr's top investigator for a time) and others in the OIC's office have noted that the name not originally reported by the Washington post looks as if it was written by a different hand ... and not Foster's. And isn't it odd that the first time this note is mentioned in police records is July 27th, a week after the police had evidence from the car in hand.
So, news items from just a
week after the death of a political figure are such an accurate, impeachable resource that contradictions mean coverup? And police investigators poring through reams of evidence should have fully catalogued everything in less than a week, so the first mention of the details of a particular item coming just
eight days after it was collected from the crime scene is so suspicious as to cast doubt on its entire provenance?
Well, you have to admit that judges don't normally allow just anything to be attached to important government reports.
How many submitted attachments did the panel of judges
deny, BAC? How many were there total?
This is just more spin. But at least now you aren't falsely claiming that any thing submitted had to be attached to the report, *by law*.
That wasn't my claim. I said that Starr had to let anyone named
submit a statement. The judges ruled that the statement should be attached to the report...exactly as per the law I quoted.
Then you admit that your bold claim was {wrong}.
What bold claim? You're the one trying to say that the judges agreeing to have Knowlton's statement defending himself against accusations of perjury, mental instability, and homosexuality somehow means that the judges agreed with everything Knowlton claimed and concluded in his rambling, self-contradictory statement.
Why paraphrase, when you can just cite exactly what Knowlton says? So you can put in quotes a statement that Knowlton did not make?
If you spent a little more time reading my posts and less time making pathetic "edits" to your accusations, you might have seen where I did just that
right above the sentence you quoted.
Here, I'll even do it again:
"In re North, Id. Mr. Knowlton
merely seeks to refute allegations that he is:
(1) A liar and perjurer;
(2) A homosexual; and
(3) Mentally unstable."
