Deeper than primes

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OK, so as locations, points still meet your requirement for being your ‘sides’.


Here it is again: A single element that there is more than a one location on it, each one of those locations is called a side w.r.t this single element.


A point is a single element, but is does not have more than a one location on it, therefore it cannot be considered as a single element that there are sides w.r.t it.

The details about the differece between a point and a side can be seen at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4731113&postcount=2940 .
 
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Here it is again: A single element that there is more than a one location on it, each one of those locations is called a side w.r.t this single element.


A point is a single element, but is does not have more than a one location on it, therefore it cannot be considered as a single element that there are sides w.r.t it.

Here it is again.

OK, so as locations, points still meet your requirement for being your ‘sides’.

I did not say points have your ‘sides’, I said they still meet your given requirements for being your ‘sides’. Furthermore what is your requirement for distinguishing one of your ‘sides’ from any other of your ‘sides’?
 
You do not get that in Pure Math, a concept like "process" is meaningless.

So addition is not a "process" of summation?

http://www.answers.com/topic/mathematical-process-mathematical-operation-operation

Kinds of ...: mathematical process, mathematical operation, operation

Top
kinds of:

permutation — the act of changing the arrangement of a given number of elements

combination — the act of arranging elements into specified groups without regard to order

differentiation — the mathematical process of obtaining the derivative of a function

maximization — the mathematical process of finding the maximum value of a function

integration — an operation used in the calculus whereby the integral of a function is determined

exponentiation, involution — the process of raising a quantity to some assigned power

arithmetic operation — a mathematical operation involving numbers

matrix operation — a mathematical operation involving matrices

construction — drawing a figure satisfying certain conditions as part of solving a problem or proving a theorem

relaxation, relaxation method — a method of solving simultaneous equations by guessing a solution and then reducing the errors that result by successive approximations until all the errors are less than some specified amount

ETA: The fact that “process” is meaningless and nonexistent in your notions, particularly in determining your ’magnitude of existence’, does not make it meaningless or nonexistent in math.
 
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I did not say points have your ‘sides’, I said they still meet your given requirements for being your ‘sides’.
There are sides if they are on the single element that has more than a one location on it. No point has a side but a single location can be used as a side. A side has different relations than a point, with the single element that it is on it, as can be seen at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4731113&postcount=2940 .

In the case of ________ :

If the location in the middle is a point, then the requirement is to be not blue AND not red.

If the location in the middle is a side, then the requirement is to be blue OR red.



A single element that has sides on it (it is not made of these sides) is called a non-local element.

Any single element that has no sides is a local element.

A point is the minimal example of a local element.

A line segment is the minimal example of a non-local element.

A line segment is non-local w.r.t the sides along it, but it can be considered as a local element, if it is completely included or excluded w.r.t some given domain.

A local element is completely included xor excluded w.r.t some given domain xor not included AND not excluded w.r.t to some given domain.

Furthermore what is your requirement for distinguishing one of your ‘sides’ from any other of your ‘sides’?

Its location w.r.t the non-local element that it is on it (no side is a building-block of the single element that it is no it).

But there are also the cases where locations are non distinguished (in the case of superposition of identities, as shown by Organic Numbers).
 
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So addition is not a "process" of summation?

http://www.answers.com/topic/mathematical-process-mathematical-operation-operation



ETA: The fact that “process” is meaningless and nonexistent in your notions, particularly in determining your ’magnitude of existence’, does not make it meaningless or nonexistent in math.
This is nonsense. Before that we drag a point, and now we are talking about process, but is has no meaning in Pure Math, because Time is not involved in Pure Math.

Here is the original question and answer about this case: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4731116&postcount=2941 .
 
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This is nonsense. Before that we drag a point, and now we are talking about process, but is has no meaning in Pure Math, because Time is not involved in Pure Math.

Here is the original question and answer about this case: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4731116&postcount=2941 .

A process does not involve so much time as it does sequence or more specifically ordering. Sequence is important to math since variations is sequence can give different results. Again, the fact that “process” is meaningless and nonexistent in your notions, particularly in determining your ’magnitude of existence’, does not make it meaningless or nonexistent in math and just goes to show how little you understand about math or the word ‘process’.
 
A process does not involve so much time as it does sequence or more specifically ordering.

Then call it ordering or what ever you like, except process, because time is involved in any process.

You the mathematicians hijack words and by force change their straightforward original meaning. This is one of the reasons that your framework is mechanic and notionless.

Furthermore, ordering or dragging still have relation to process and therefore to time.
 
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There are sides if they are on the single element that has more than a one location on it. No point has a side but a single location can be used as a side. A side has different relations than a point, with the single element that it is on it, as can be seen at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4731113&postcount=2940 .

In the case of ________ :

If the location in the middle is a point, then the requirement is to be not blue AND not red.

If the location in the middle is a side, then the requirement is to be blue OR red.

Again, it all depends on how you choose to define your red/blue intervals as exemplified before. Simply calling a ‘location’ by a different name (your ‘side’) does not make it any less of a location or point/points.


A single element that has sides on it (it is not made of these sides) is called a non-local element.

Any single element that has no sides is a local element.

A point is the minimal example of a local element.

A line segment is the minimal example of a non-local element.

A line segment is non-local w.r.t the sides along it, but it can be considered as a local element, if it is completely included or excluded w.r.t some given domain.

Ah so now non-locality is not an aspect of your line segment but simply an aspect of the ‘domain’ one chooses to define. You seem to be moving closer to the domain of standard geometry.

A local element is completely included xor excluded w.r.t some given domain xor not included AND not excluded w.r.t to some given domain.

“not included AND not excluded”? So you just do not know where your ‘local’ element is?



Its location w.r.t the non-local element that it is on it (no side is a building-block of the single element that it is no it).

So points (locations) distinguish between your sides. Again, you seem to be moving closer to the domain of standard geometry.
 
Somebody owes me a new irony meter.

Organic Mathematics recovers the damage that you made by your brutal changing of the straightforward and original meaning of many words, for example:

Non-finite, Limit, Process, All (for all), Countable, Complete, Upper bound, Lower bound, Successor, Predecessor, etc …
 
Then call it ordering or what ever you like, except process, because time is involved in any process.

You the mathematicians hijack words and by force change their straightforward original meaning. This is one of the reasons that your framework is mechanic and notionless.

Furthermore, ordering or dragging still have relation to process and therefore to time.


In math the equation 5 * 2 - 3/4 results in 9.25 because of ordering in the processing of the given operations (multiplication and division before addition or subtraction). Please tell us how changes in time might alter that result without changes in ordering.


Somebody owes me a new irony meter.

Organic Mathematics recovers the damage that you made by your brutal changing of the straightforward and original meaning of many words, for example:

Non-finite, Limit, Process, All (for all), Countable, Complete, Upper bound, Lower bound, Successor, Predecessor, etc …

No meter could possibly represent such irony, it is infinite and uncountable.
 
The Man said:
Again, it all depends on how you choose to define your red/blue intervals as exemplified before. Simply calling a ‘location’ by a different name (your ‘side’) does not make it any less of a location or point/points.

It depends on the fact that AND connective is not OR connective (and vice verse).

The Man said:
Ah so now non-locality is not an aspect of your line segment but simply an aspect of the ‘domain’ one chooses to define. You seem to be moving closer to the domain of standard geometry.

It depends if Absolute or Relative views are used, as explicitly shown in
http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/OMPT.pdf pages 22 - 24 .

The Man said:
“not included AND not excluded”? So you just do not know where your ‘local’ element is?

[.] = included point

[ ]. = excluded point.

[ . = not included AND not excluded point ( it is exactly on ] )

If the location on ] is a side, then a side is included w.r.t [ ]
The Man said:
So points (locations)

No, location is a point XOR a side.
 
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Yes, and your inability to get it is the reason of why you don't get my answers about this case.

Ok, if you really consider those three statements equivalent, then it is time to move on. I bet you can't find anyone in this forum that would honestly agree with your position, though.

...I am talking about the immediate predecessor of y...

Fine, we can focus on just that. Why do you assume any real number, Y, must have an immediate predecessor (or immediate successor)?

My claim is this, if y is an immediate successor of some R member, then this member is the immediate predecessor of y.

Since no real number has an immediate successor, your statement is trivially true. IF <proposition that is false> THEN <any proposition whatsoever>.

This claim must be true both in [x,y) or [x,y] cases, since the universal quantifier "for all" is used in both cases.

Umm, did you miss the fact that intervals are not elements of the set of real numbers? And just how do you connect the universal qualifier to this and make it responsible for your claim.

Maybe this will help as a starting point. Here's a half-open interval expressed as an equivalent set:

[latex]$$$ [X, Y) \equiv \{Z : X \le Z < Y\} $$$[/latex]​

Standard Math uses the twisted legend, that any representation method is limited to aleph0

Where'd you get that idea?

...and as a result there is no way to represent the immediate successor or the immediate predecessor of any arbitrary given R member along the real-line.

No, that's wrong. It is not for lack of representation; it is for lack of existence. No real number has an immediate predecessor or immediate successor.

But this twisted legend is collapsed because Standard Math (as you wrote) can't show the immediate successor or the immediate predecessor of any arbitrary given Q member along the real-line, even if there are aleph0 Q members along the real-line.

Yes, rational numbers don't have immediate predecessors or immediate successors, either. Why would you expect otherwise?

We do not need more than that in order to show that the use of the universal quantifier "for all" on a collection of non-finite elements, does not hold.

So, what you are saying is that because the reals (and the rationals) don't have a property they shouldn't have, this proves the universal qualifier doesn't work? Curious.

By the way, the word is qualifier, not quantifier. Also, appending the "for all" to "universal qualifier" is redundant. It weakens your case when you can't even get these simple things correct.

you have failed to get the fact that Cantor explicitly used a way to define the exact member that is not mapped with any member of N, and by using this method, the conclusion and the premise are under a circular reasoning.

Again, you demonstrate you have no understanding of Cantor's second uncountability proof. You have expanded it, though, to show you have no understanding of proof by contradiction nor the term, circular reasoning.
 
Organic Mathematics recovers the damage that you made by your brutal changing of the straightforward and original meaning of many words, for example:

Non-finite, Limit, Process, All (for all), Countable, Complete, Upper bound, Lower bound, Successor, Predecessor, etc …
Perhaps this is one root of the problem of your sub-optimal relationship with mathematics - that all specialist areas of knowledge must, and do, clearly define the semantics of the words they use, in order to avoid misunderstanding. In the process, the ill-defined everyday semantics of those words necessarily gives way to the more rigorous definitions. If you could bring yourself to accept this, and to define the semantics of your own 'custom' vocabulary, perhaps this discussion would be less frustrating for all.
 
The Man said:
In math the equation 5 * 2 - 3/4 results in 9.25 because of ordering in the processing of the given operations

Wrong.

It depends on the power (hierarchy of arithmetic) and direction of the equation.

Furthermore, there is no universal principle here, because 5 * 2 - 3/4 = 9.25 is nothing but the particular case of serial reasoning, where superposition of identities is ignored.
 
Wrong.

It depends on the power (hierarchy of arithmetic) and direction of the equation.

Furthermore, there is no universal principle here, because 5 * 2 - 3/4 = 9.25 is nothing but the particular case of serial reasoning, where superposition of identities is ignored.


Doron, you have seriously lost it. Now, you are just denying things for the sake of contradiction.
 
jsfisher said:
Umm, did you miss the fact that intervals are not elements of the set of real numbers?

No, you are the one who have missed the fact intervals are elements of the set of real numbers (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4732096&postcount=2950 ).

jsfisher said:
So, what you are saying is that because the reals (and the rationals) don't have a property they shouldn't have, this proves the universal qualifier doesn't work? Curious.

By the way, the word is qualifier, not quantifier. Also, appending the "for all" to "universal qualifier" is redundant. It weakens your case when you can't even get these simple things correct.

I am talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_quantification "for all".

"For all" is used on [x,y) or [x,y] (it does not matter) and because it is used, there must be an immediate predecessor to y.

Simple as that.
 
No, you are the one who have missed the fact intervals are elements of the set of real numbers (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4732096&postcount=2950 ).

This is just sad, Doron. You don't comprehend your own words. You said:

An interval is an ordered collection of R members

See? You even got it mostly right back in that post. An interval is a collection. It is a collection of real numbers (elements of R, if you prefer); it is not itself a real number.

Why do you make so many simple mistakes like this?


Sure, but why do you continue with that redundancy?

"For all" is used on [x,y) or [x,y] (it does not matter) and because it is used, there must be an immediate predecessor to y.

Simple as that.

Great!

(1) Please show where it is used.
(2) How does its use thereby require an immediate predecessor for Y?

Simple as that.
 
Perhaps this is one root of the problem of your sub-optimal relationship with mathematics - that all specialist areas of knowledge must, and do, clearly define the semantics of the words they use, in order to avoid misunderstanding. In the process, the ill-defined everyday semantics of those words necessarily gives way to the more rigorous definitions. If you could bring yourself to accept this, and to define the semantics of your own 'custom' vocabulary, perhaps this discussion would be less frustrating for all.

Again.

First of all there must be notions.

Definitions without notions is nothing but a notionless maneuvers with symbols.

In order to get Organic Mathematics notions, you have no choice but to read all of http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/OMPT.pdf .

Furthermore, you can air your view about some part of http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/OMPT.pdf only if you first read all of it.

Organic Mathematics is not a serial step-by-step reasoning, and any part of it can be understood iff you first read all of it.

A step by step reasoning is actually a weak emergence reasoning, where the Whole is the sum of the Parts.

Organic Mathematics is a non-standard Strong Emergence Reasoning, where the Whole is greater than the sum of the Parts.

(In Standard Strong Emergence the Whole is greater than the sum of its Parts)

The members of this forum try to force Weak Emergence reasoning on Organic Mathematics, and as an obvious result, they don't understand it.
 
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This is just sad, Doron. You don't comprehend your own words. You said:

jsfisher, please cut the BS, we both know that an interval is made of R members, and the universal quantification "for all" is used on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(mathematics)

In mathematics, a (real) interval is a set of real numbers with the property that any number that lies between two numbers in the set is also included in the set. For example, the set of all numbers x satisfying 0 ≤ x ≤ 1 is an interval which contains 0 and 1, as well as all numbers between them.

As a result y of [x,y)(even if y is not included) or [x,y] must have an immediate predecessor.

There is no other option.
 
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jsfisher, please cut the BS, we both know that an interval is made of R members

I have never denied this. You, however, said an interval was a member of R. That statement was bogus.

...and the universal quantification "for all" is used on it.

Where? I've already provided you with set equivalent to the interval [X,Y). I don't recall seeing [SIZE=+1]∀[/SIZE] anywhere nearby.

As a result y of [x,y) or [x,y] must have an immediate predecessor.

There is no other option.

How so? Just how does the appearance of the universal quantifier mandate the existence of an immediate predecessor?
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(mathematics)

In mathematics, a (real) interval is a set of real numbers with the property that any number that lies between two numbers in the set is also included in the set. For example, the set of all numbers x satisfying 0 ≤ x ≤ 1 is an interval which contains 0 and 1, as well as all numbers between them.

As a result y of [x,y)(even if y is not included in the interval) or [x,y] must have an immediate predecessor.

There is no other option.
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(mathematics)

In mathematics, a (real) interval is a set of real numbers with the property that any number that lies between two numbers in the set is also included in the set. For example, the set of all numbers x satisfying 0 ≤ x ≤ 1 is an interval which contains 0 and 1, as well as all numbers between them.

Ok, I guess we can now add universal quantification to the list of things Doron doesn't understand. An (informal) statement in English that uses the word, all, is not automatically an example of universal quantification.

Here is the very first sentence from the very wiki article you cited not long ago:

Unversal quantificatoin said:
In predicate logic, universal quantification formalizes the notion that something (a logical predicate) is true for everything

Your reference to intervals doesn't offer any statement alleged to be true for everything. If you think otherwise, express the statement as a formal logical predicate.

As a result y of [x,y)(even if y is not included) or [x,y] must have an immediate predecessor.

There is no other option.

So you continue to allege, but you haven't provided any connection between universal quantification and predecessors, just the bare allegation.
 
Ok, I guess we can now add universal quantification to the list of things Doron doesn't understand. An (informal) statement in English that uses the word, all, is not automatically an example of universal quantification.

Here is the very first sentence from the very wiki article you cited not long ago:



Your reference to intervals doesn't offer any statement alleged to be true for everything. If you think otherwise, express the statement as a formal logical predicate.
This is a good example of my claim that you, the current notionless mathematicians hijacked the straightforward meaning of the word "all" and used it incorrectly as a part of the term "for all".

"for all" has an exact meaning which is "without exceptions".

"for all" members (which means that we are talking about the all members, without exceptions) of the interval [x,y] y must have an immediate predecessor, because all members < y are included in [x,y] (otherwise the word "all" of "for all" is meaningless).
 
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This is a good example of my claim that you, the current notionless mathematicians hijacked the straightforward meaning of the word "all" and used it incorrectly as a part of the term "for all".

I see. Since you never bothered to really learn what the terms meant, you just guessed. When it's pointed out you guessed wrong, you blame the rest of the world.

"for all" members (which means that we are talking about the all members, without exceptions) of the interval [x,y] y must have an immediate predecessor, because all members < y are included in [x,y] (otherwise the word "all" of "for all" is meaningless).

Having a set of all real numbers less than some real number does not in any way require the set have a largest element. Why do you assume it must have a largest element?
 
I see. Since you never bothered to really learn what the terms meant, you just guessed. When it's pointed out you guessed wrong, you blame the rest of the world.
Now you play the megalomaniac.

jsfisher, your community of current notionless mathematicians is not the rest of the world.

It is no more than a religious closed sect that plays with words and symbols without any notion behind it.


Having a set of all real numbers less than some real number does not in any way require the set have a largest element. Why do you assume it must have a largest element?
y is the largest member of all the members of the interval [x,y] and because all members < y are included in [x,y], then y has an immediate predecessor.

There is no other meaning to the word "all".
I see. Since you never bothered to really learn what the terms meant, you just guessed.

You never bothered to really learn what this word means , not even gussing.
 
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y is the largest member of all the members of the interval [x,y] and because all member < y are included in [x,y], then y has an immediate predecessor.

No, you are completely wrong on this. You are implicitly assuming there must be a largest member included in that "all". The assumption is unwarranted; there is not largest member < Y. Without a largest member < Y, the immediate predecessor for Y does not exist.

There is no other meaning to the word "all" (you never bothered to really learn what this word means).

Messrs. Merriam and Webster would disagree.
 
No, you are completely wrong on this. You are implicitly assuming there must be a largest member included in that "all". The assumption is unwarranted; there is not largest member < Y.
Why, because you want to ignore the meaning to the word "all"?

As I said, you force your arbitrary determinations, in order to get your requested artificial results, no more no less, remember?

Messrs. Merriam and Webster would disagree.
Also in the case of a non-finite interval?
 
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Nothing you've put forth so far gets to a point where there must be a largest element in the set of reals < Y.
Just the term "all" on the non-finite interval [x,y].

We do not need more than that, jsfisher.

On the contrary, you did not provide anything that shows that this is not the case.
 
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Using OM, tell us what the predecessor of y is in the expression [x,y] when using a number line.

Organic Mathematic explicitly defines the immediate predecessor of y, as the non-local element that is both on y AND on any arbitrary member of [x,y] interval.
 
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Just the term "all" on the non-finite interval [x,y].

That would be a finite interval, also known as a bounded interval.

We do not need more than that, jsfisher.

Yours is just an empty allegation. If that is all you have, you don't have anything. Don't you have anything to support your claim other than hand waving?

On the contrary, you did not provide anything that shows that this is not the case.

Your claim; your responsibility to support your claim.
 
Using OM, tell us what the predecessor of y is in the expression [x,y] when using a number line.

If you look at the post he'll cross-reference in response to this query, you'll may notice what he claims for the predecessor (at the very bottom of the post) isn't a real number and isn't in the interval.

ETA: Sigh. Doron has already rewritten his response to avoid the cross-reference.
 
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That would be a finite interval, also known as a bounded interval.
Why, because you want to ignore the fact that [x,y] is a non-finte interval?

This is just your artificial deretmination, no more no less.


Yours is just an empty allegation. If that is all you have, you don't have anything. Don't you have anything to support your claim other than hand waving?

Your artificial deretmination is not even a hand waving.


Your claim; your responsibility to support your claim.
there is not largest member < Y

Your claim; your responsibility to support your claim.
 
Organic Mathematic explicitly defines the immediate predecessor of y, as the non-local element that is both on y AND on any arbitrary member of [x,y] interval.

So then, the predecessor of y is y since y is an arbitrary member of [x,y]. and now tell me how y can be a predecessor of itself.

See, jsfisher, there was some logic there.
 
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Why, because you want to ignore the fact that [x,y] is a non-finte interval?

This is just your artificial deretmination, no more no less.

Learn what mathematical terms mean, Doron, and stop blaming others for your lack of knowledge. The interval [X,Y] is a finite interval, and that's a fact.

Your artificial deretmination is not even a hand waving.

If you can't support your claim, fine, but please have the decency to cease with your empty allegations, then.

For reference, your claim was that somehow the use of the word, all, you found in a wiki article about intervals requires that any real number Y must have an immediate predecessor.

You are unable to support this allegation, so we may reject it.

I separately alleged the set { X : X < Y } for some Y has no largest element. You seem hung up on this one, too, so I will support the claim.

I will use a simple proof by contradiction. As with all such proofs, it begins with an assumption then proceeds to construct a contradiction, thereby showing the assumption to be false.

Assume the set {X : X<Y} does have a largest element, Z.

For Z to be an element of the set, Z < Y.
Let h be any element of the interval (Z,Y).
By the construction of h, Z < h < Y.
Since h < Y, h is an element of the set {X : X<Y}.
Since Z < h, the assumption Z was the largest element of the set has been contradicted.

Therefore, the set {X : X<Y} does not have a largest element.
 
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