Electric universe theories here.

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Empirical Evidence

It is astonishing that those of you who believe in black holes, dark matter, inflation etc., have never seen empirical evidence of those mathematical constructions, ...
Wrong already and the first sentence isn't even done. Too bad. Well, you want empirical evidence for black holes? As I already said elsewhere ...
Easy. The key thing to realize here is that every manner of massive compact objects known or proposed (including the elusive MECO) has a hard surface, except for black holes. Matter falling onto anything except a black hole will encounter that hard surface and react accordingly. But in the case of the black hole, anything falling in simply falls through the event horizon and disappears. So the presence or absence of an event horizon can be distinguished observationally by examining the flare behavior of massive objects. Such observations have been carried out now for many years and the evidence for the presence of event horizons is now quite strong.

Here are a few references. These papers and the citations thereto should give you enough to chew on for a while. I have not checked to see if any of them are duplicates of those already mentioned by Sol Invictus.
Another way to observationally distinguish a black hole is to observe its "shadow" as predicted by general relativity. But that requires higher resolution observations than we can currently do, though it may be doable in the foreseeable future, for the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way (Falcke, et al., 2001).
And on inflation ...
Inflation is a testable hypothesis. Your assertion to the contrary, as an excuse for declaring it unscientific is a factually false statement. See, i.e., Mikheeva, 20008; Lesgourgues & Valkenburg, 2007; Alabidi & Lyth, 2006; Lidsey & Seery, 2006 ... Liddle, 1999.
There is in fact a wealth of empirical evidence for all the things you mention. Now ...
... yet utterly reject detailed images as completely without merit when they are readily available on various government/industry websites.
Wrong again. Nobody rejects the images, but we only take care to note that they are what they are, and neither more nor less than that. We do reject interpretations of the images which make little sense even in the context of the image, and otherwise strongly violate the laws of physics. So, why don't you tell us why we should line up like gullible fools to believe an interpretation that obviously violates even the most sacred fundamental laws of physics? Or maybe you will now provide detailed corrections, and explain where the "laws of physics" are wrong?

You are the modern day equivalent to the church officials who wouldn't look through Galileo's telescope.
Actually, I think that description fits Mozina far better than anyone else around. He is, after all, the one who consistently & constantly rejects all arguments, all evidence of any kind, which conflicts with his built in pre-conceptions.

You're worse, you've seen the image and say it isn't there.
Wrong again. Of course the image is there. It's the interpretation we disagree with.

From your venom, I'd say if you could, you'd burn Mozina like Bruno.
If you think this is bad, you need to hang around a few of the less disciplined discussion boards. This is tame stuff around here. Like Truman said, if you can't take the heat, just get out of the kitchen.

At the very least these images demand more investigation.
No they don't.

At the most they shred the standard model.
In yer dreams.

How could it be so wrong?
It isn't.

Is G a charge variable.
No

Gee zeus! look out for your grants.
I'm retired. No grants for me to worry about. It doesn't matter anyway, only the uninformed outsiders think it matters what you believe to get a grant. Those of us who have worked on the inside understand that random chance is a far more important ally!
 
hmmm. Answers to this post by tim would be nice. I'm too drunk at the mo (just got back in from a night out) to make any sense out of it, but he appears to have shown quite a lot of evidence to argue his case.
 
... yet utterly reject detailed images as completely without merit when they are readily available on various government/industry websites.
Wrong again. Nobody rejects the images, but we only take care to note that they are what they are, and neither more nor less than that. We do reject interpretations of the images which make little sense even in the context of the image, and otherwise strongly violate the laws of physics. So, why don't you tell us why we should line up like gullible fools to believe an interpretation that obviously violates even the most sacred fundamental laws of physics? Or maybe you will now provide detailed corrections, and explain where the "laws of physics" are wrong?


Yes, bhrobards, please do. Because Michael desperately needs your help here. You see, in all his years of trying to get people to accept his interpretation of his sacred images, he hasn't been able to convince a single person, certainly not anyone working in any field even remotely related to physics. Please explain where the laws of physics are wrong. After all, that truly is what it would take to make Michael's interpretation correct.

And imagine this. There's a Nobel prize waiting for you if you can do it. You could snatch it right out from Michael's eminent grasp! :)
 
hmmm. Answers to this post by tim would be nice. I'm too drunk at the mo (just got back in from a night out) to make any sense out of it, but he appears to have shown quite a lot of evidence to argue his case.
No answers are needed.
bhrobards just displayed his ignorance of the evidence for black holes, dark matter and inflation.

He seems to have a similar attitude to MM - "The images have features that look like things that I expected. Thus the images contain those things.". If bhrobards expected to see McDonald's arches in the images, saw McDonald's arches (e.g. double coronal loops) then there are McDonald outlets on the Sun!
 
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Gee, will wonders never cease. You really are an enigma on many levels. In some ways your understanding is quite good. On other levels you reject Alfven's work on solar theory almost completely. Things never seem to quite add up with you. Thanks for the support on this issue at least.

Enigma is my middle name.
I only reject parts of Alfvén's work which have been shown to be incorrect.
I am not rejecting his "short circuit" in a coronal loop, but I do stress that this has to do with the "unwinding" of the loops, as described in detail by Raadu in section 10 [rul=http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1989PhR...178...25R]of this paper[/url] where he discusses both A&C's model for solar flares and the Kaastra model of solar flares (figure 9).
I reject his dismissal of the "frozen-in condition" of the magnetic field, because is has been shown in measurements in space that that condition is well fulfilled for many processes taking place in space. (However I do realize that when he made that comment, the general attitude in space and plasma astrophysics was to unarguably claim frozen-in field, and not look whether the conditions like diffusion time vs. process time were fulfilled).

Sure, but it's a current carrying Bennett Pinch thread driven by the current flow inside the rope, and the *total circuit energy* according to Alfven.

This does not make sense, to say it is a curent carrying Bennett pinch as there cannot be a Bennett pinch if there is no current. The current comes first, the pinch might come later. (you are probably confused by the current carrying and non current carrying double layers, which are indeed different species).
However, the "total circuit energy" (whatever that is, please define this better, but I take it to be like I L2) is not all there is, there is magnetic tension too in this process which is not included in this "total circuit energy."

The are common in all types of current carrying plasma, from the ordinary plasma ball on my desk, to the plasmas in space. These are indeed "ordinary" processes and very "natural" processes in current carrying plasma.

It is NOT the same as a plasma ball, i.e. the breakdown of a dielectric.

Ok, as long as we're both clear that the "flux" is *electro*magnetic energy, I agree.

I have not got the foggiest what you mean by "*electro*magnetic energy. It is magnetic flux that is talked about, a magnetic flux tube that enters the Earth's magnetosphere. That is why it is called a flux transfer event, the magnetic flux gets transferred from the solar wind to the magnetosphere. That is the definition, and whatever other processes may or may not occur are irrelevant for the definition of said process.

Then the next message:
And? This is where that enigma thing comes in. You should at least acknowledge that he compared the whole thing to the sun.

Well, for one, the strongly magnetized terrella was a model to explain (incorrectly) the rings of Saturn. Only when he reduced the magnetization (loops disappearing, streamers now being the main thing) did he start to say it might be like the sun, in order to find the zodiacal light (which basically is explained by dust and not by "particles in an electrical state that they can reflect sunlight") and then he claims that it looks like the corona.

We do have a "ring around the sun" of a flowing sort. It's called a Parker's Spiral. It's not a "ring" per se, but a "flow pattern" created by the current flowing toward the heliosphere and the rotation of the sun. If anything Birkeland seemed to underestimate the amount of material

Yes/No. That is not what Birkeland claims in the text that I quoted. He talks about emissions of "coronium" and that there is a RING which is also clear in his pictures. In no way at all does he claim on those pages that he is talking about a "solar wind", he is talking about a steady ring of particles around the terrella which he calls the corona.

As he was well aware that corpuscules were flying from the Sun to the Earth, I am sure he would have said that this could be these corpuscules, but he does not. He tries to explain, as an aside, the cororna. And it MUST be a steady ring, because otherwise his further calculations (on the pages that come after the pretty pictures) do not make sense, as he tries to show there how particles that are ejected from the Sun, can reach orbits and then somehow create the planets. That is what it is all about in my opinion.


Well, if might be less than convincing if he wasn't right about their existence in the solar atmosphere. Yes, it could be less than convincing had he been wrong, but the loops at least turn out to be a "successful prediction" of his model.

Existence of what exactly? The loops were not supposed to be the Sun, and as I read it, he never claims that those loops are the Sun, they are his idea about how the rings of Saturn are created.
 
However if you posit that what is leaving the sun is "electricity" that doesnt become thermal(photon) energy until it interacts with matter, I think that would solve the problem.

"electricity" is not a scientifically clear term. this can mean anything. if you want to posit anything, you should at least use workable terms.
 
It is astonishing that those of you who believe in black holes, dark matter, inflation etc., have never seen empirical evidence of those mathematical constructions, yet utterly reject detailed images as completely without merit when they are readily available on various government/industry websites. You are the modern day equivalent to the church officials who wouldn't look through Galileo's telescope. You're worse, you've seen the image and say it isn't there. From your venom, I'd say if you could, you'd burn Mozina like Bruno. At the very least these images demand more investigation. At the most they shred the standard model. How could it be so wrong? Is G a charge variable. Gee zeus! look out for your grants.

No one of the mainstream gang here is rejecting any images (I guess you mean the SOHO images, or the pictures by Birkeland or whatever, you might be a bit more specific). However, we do reject the misinterpretation of said images by Michael Mozina, Zeuzzz and Sol88.

Now, if you would like to clarify your stance, by showing which images you mean, and what processes you think are happening, that would be very welcome. We will not burn you yet, but you are already standing on the wood pile.

It's like, we don't believe the views by Herschell and his contemporates either anymore, that sunspots are holes in the cloud cover around the big planet that is underneath it. They even claimed that they could see landscapes through the "holes in the clouds" (See e.g. Chapter 2 of "The Sun Kings" by Stuart Clark). Observations are good, and are the starting point for anything in astrophysics, but the interpretation of the images can only be done well, when one knows about the details of the possible processes and how the data handling has been done. Michael Mozina has not shown he is very capable in either of these two points.

And by the way, welcome!

Ah, and I just saw that Tim Thompson basically told you the same.
 
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Bump.

I've asked you to quantify your ideas. You repeatedly refuse, even though such a task is easy. Very well, I shall endeavor to do so for you.

I did the calculations for you, Michael. Did I do any of them wrong? If so, point me to my errors. If not, doesn't this indicate that your ideas about a solid layer of the sun staying cooler than 6000 K are absurd? Time to man up, Michael. Your ideas have been subjected to quantitative scrutiny, and they have collapsed into absurdity.
 
Bump.



I did the calculations for you, Michael. Did I do any of them wrong? If so, point me to my errors. If not, doesn't this indicate that your ideas about a solid layer of the sun staying cooler than 6000 K are absurd? Time to man up, Michael. Your ideas have been subjected to quantitative scrutiny, and they have collapsed into absurdity.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're not really expecting MM to do MATH!?!?!?!?!
He cannot even point out where Birkeland does his math, let alone he will check your math.
Asking direct, quantifiable explanations from MM is useless, he only wants to rant and make more assumptions in his models than there are stars in a galaxy and then complain about mainstream physics making justified assumptions.
I would advise not to hold your breath, getting a real answer.
 
MM and math

I'll be damned, all that snipping and not a shred of substantive response left. Just another temper tantrum and more lies. Who coulda knowed?

Christ, Michael, don't you find it the least bit odd that after over 1300 of your mostly nonsensical posts here, not a single person even remotely agrees that you're seeing solid physical things in running difference images? Nobody. I'm asking seriously. Doesn't your disconnect with reality even concern you a little bit?

And isn't it strange that everyone, every single person who has ventured an opinion, understands me and fundamentally agrees that I am correct in my explanation? Everyone. Don't you consider the possibility that your mental health might be suffering when you see things nobody else sees? You'd talk to a mental health professional if you were hearing things nobody else was hearing, wouldn't you? Again, I'm asking seriously.

You say these people accept what I say as true because I'm vastly superior at persuading people, which I agree is clearly the case. But don't you ever stop to seriously consider it's also because I'm right and you're wrong.

Now if you truly want to show people that Dr. Hurlburt and I are wrong, you should seriously address the issues I raised in posts #806, #819, and #829. If you really have any more than your big mouth and a crackpot delusion, don't be such a puss. Get down to the business of supporting your insane fantasy already.

ETA: I see there is one person, brantc, who is obviously as capable of supporting his position as you are, Michael. It looks like a solid surface to him, therefore he believes it is solid. But even he admits that his observational evidence is in his mind! :)
MM has been asked, many times, in many different threads, over a period of many months, to write a post or three which shows that he can do the math (relevant to some aspect of his claims).

AFAIK, despite being repeatedly asked and reminded, he has not done so; nor has he presented, unasked, quantitative material in support of his claims.

Somewhere, recently, MM made a claim that he'd presented some quantitative calculations on another internet discussion forum, or forums, but he did not indicate which, or when.

I had a quick look through the links you provided, in an earlier post, and couldn't find anything like this.

From your more intimate (shall we say) knowledge of his posts in other fora, GeeMack, are you aware of any math/quantitative presentations (etc) that he has made? If so, do you recall what it/they was/were about?

It seems to me that without doing some math directly relevant to MM's claims, no progress can be made ...
 
MM has been asked, many times, in many different threads, over a period of many months, to write a post or three which shows that he can do the math (relevant to some aspect of his claims).

AFAIK, despite being repeatedly asked and reminded, he has not done so; nor has he presented, unasked, quantitative material in support of his claims.

Somewhere, recently, MM made a claim that he'd presented some quantitative calculations on another internet discussion forum, or forums, but he did not indicate which, or when.

I had a quick look through the links you provided, in an earlier post, and couldn't find anything like this.

From your more intimate (shall we say) knowledge of his posts in other fora, GeeMack, are you aware of any math/quantitative presentations (etc) that he has made? If so, do you recall what it/they was/were about?

It seems to me that without doing some math directly relevant to MM's claims, no progress can be made ...


I seem to recall one time when Michael copied and pasted Planck's Law in a posting on the BAUT Forum, but a cursory search doesn't turn up the posting. I do believe it was only tangentially relevant to what was being discussed, and he didn't seem to understand what it was about anyway. It also seems he regularly referred back to that individual effort when others asked him to show numbers to support his nutty conjectures. I do remember that on both BAUT and SFN he pointed to that one copy/paste and claimed that since he had done some math before, he was off the hook to "bark math on command" ever again.

He has been asked over and over again to quantitatively describe his solid surface in terms of elemental composition, thermal characteristics, density, thickness, and other factors that are critical to supporting such a crazy notion. Not one single time do I ever recall him using an actual number. We've seen it here for well over a thousand of his postings. Very thick, *HOT*, thinner, more than, less than, faster, denser, all over the place, and such descriptive terms. But never a number. He seems to enjoy his fantasy immensely, you know, talking all sciency and stuff. Numbers would destroy it. He can't risk bringing them into the fold.

Here is a small sampling of Michael's comments from the BAUT forum regarding math and calculations and numbers. These are typical of his responses to legitimate questions from users going by recognizable names like Nereid, Tim Thompson, Baloo, and many others. This was about October of 2005. Nothing has changed. Michael seems to literally despise numbers. They scare him. He has been claiming for years that he's on the edge of providing some quantitative support for his harebrained delusion. But to date, he hasn't shown that he's even capable of balancing his checkbook.

Michael Mozina said:
(Posted here on the BAUT Forum. This one has a guess, a physically impossible temperature for the surface of the Sun.) I will ultimately take a stab at the math related to RANGES of possiblities as it relates to density. It may be a while before I'm ready, but I will ask Nereid to reopen that thread when I am ready. It's not my first priority however. First I'd like to demonstrate what I can actually demonstrate with real data. Then I will take a stab the density problem. I'm still debating movement models in my own mind at the moment. When I've picked a "favorite", I'll work on that again for you.

Michael Mozina said:
(Posted here on the BAUT Forum.) I can and do change my mind all the time. I used to think the sun was made of gas. I no longer believe that. I used to believe there was a fusion core. I changed my mind. I can and do change my mind, but I need a good reason to do so. If you think you can explain the images better using math and the gas model, I'll consider your math. I'm open to mathematical formulas that fit the bill here, which is why I liked the work of Dr. Bruce. I don't see the point however in duplicating his work. I trust Dr. Manuel's math too, but nobody seems to put much credence in that math. Why would I thing a mathematical representation of anything is going to sway you one way or the other? What mathematic representation would convince you instantly that I was right and the gas model is wrong?

Michael Mozina said:
(Posted here on the BAUT Forum.) It takes a bit more time and effort to spend 15 years of so studying satellite images to and be able to explain them all, and show how they all tie together. I've done just that. I didn't do it over a weekend, or over a year, but I've studied the sun for decades of my life, and particularly through satellite imagery. There are no math formulas that are going to precisely explain these images. At best they will be approximations of a theoretical method to explain the phenomenon.

Michael Mozina said:
(Posted here on the BAUT Forum. This one shows a line of copy/paste that has real numbers in it.) Actually, I do intend to provide some math, specifically the density RANGE calculations. I'm still playing with movement models, but it seems like everyone want a math formula and I can't think of a better place to give you one at the moment. Even still, Bruce put forth all sorts of math. So did Manuel. Not many folks listened to them. What makes you think a couple of math formulas from me are going to make a big difference here exactly?


If it wasn't so obvious he's being intentionally ignorant to avoid having to acknowledge his own failure, it might actually be good comedy. But I'm afraid this stuff is for real. Kind of pathetic, actually.

And every so often this thread can do with a review of Michael's history on these subjects...

Oh, man. You asked for it. This has been going on for years, since 2002 at least. Here's a compendium, a virtual cornucopia of Michael's "Surface of the Sun" antics. [...]

Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum...
8 pages, 30 posts per page...

13 pages, 30 posts per page...

14 pages, 30 posts per page...

12 pages, 30 posts per page...

Sockpuppet: ManInTheMirror - 4 pages, 30 posts per page...

Sockpuppet: ManInTheMirror - 36 pages, 30 posts per page...

Einstein@Home forum at the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee...

Over 3,000 postings over at the Skeptic Friends Network...
 
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Outstanding questions for Micheal Mozina

The remarks about Micheal Mozina's hand waving and lack of mathematics reminded me of the list of questions that I have still not got answers to.
These are some of the questions that MM has been asked and seems incapable of answering other than by spouting unsupported assertions.

The perpetual dark matter question:
How are these items of evidence for dark matter incorrect?
(first asked 23rd June 2009).

What is the amount of 171A light emitted by the photosphere and can it be detected?
(first asked 6th July 2009).

A post that seemed to retract his "mountain ranges" on the TRACE 171A RD animation evoked this question:
What discharge rates and processes come from your hypothetical thermodynamically impossible solid iron surface to show up as records of change in the RD animation in the corona.
(first asked 6th July 2009).

From tusenfem:
Where is the the solar wind and the appropriate math in Birkelands book?
(asked 7th July 2009)

Please cite where in his book Birkeland identified fission as the "original current source" and in the same post
Please cite where in his book Birkeland identified a discharge process between the Sun's surface and the heliosphere (about 10 billion kilometers from the Sun).
(first asked 7th July 2009).

Is your solid iron surface thermodynamically possible?
(first asked 8 July 2009).
Also see this post for a fuller explanation of the thermodynamic problems with MM's solid iron surface.

Coronal loops are electrical discharges?
(first asked 10 July 2009).

Can Micheal Mozina answer a simple RD animation question?
(first asked 10 July 2009)

More questions for Michael Mozina about the photosphere optical depth
(First asked 13 July 2009)

Formation of the iron surface
(First asked 13 July 2009)

How much is "mostly neon" MM?
First asked 13 July 2009

Just how useless is the Iron Sun model?
(First asked 13 July 2009)

Coronal loop heating question for Michael Mozina
First asked 13 July 2009

Coronal loop stability question for Michael Mozina
First asked 13 July 2009
He does link to his copy of Alfvén and Carlqvist's 1966 paper (Currents in the Solar Atmosphere and A theory of Solar Flares). This does not model what we now know a real solar flare acts like.

Has the hollow Iron Sun been tested?
First asked 14 July 2009

Is Saturn the Sun?
First asked 14 July 2009
(Birkelands Fig 247a is an analogy for Saturn's rings but MM compares it to to the Sun).

Question about "streams of electrons" for Micheal Mozina
First asked 14 July 2009
MM has one reply in which he mistakenly thinks that this question is about coronal loops.

In addition:
Is your "The Sun is a plasma diffuser that sorts atoms by mass" paper correct when it states that the Trace satellite using a 171 Å filter can see below the photosphere?
If so can you cite the paper or textbook that proves this because there are plenty of textbooks that say this is impossible. The Wikipedia article on the photosphere is quite clear.

All you have to do is show that the optical depth of the Sun's photosphere is at least 4800 kilometres. For a mathematical and physical genius like you this should be really easy :rolleyes:.
Perhaps your co-author O. Manuel did the calculations?
 
What is the temperature above the iron crust in the Iron Sun model

Another question for you Michael Mozina.
First asked 17 July 2009
The Iron Sun model assumes that the iron crust exists 4800 km below the photosphere and so must have an unspecified temperature < 2000 K (otherwise it vaporizes). The top of the photosphere is at a temperature of 5777 K.
Now I know that your Iron Sun idea has no actual predictions but if my guess (from your posts) is that you would assume that the temperature rises from the iron crust to the photosphere. You may even say say that each layer in your idea has a separate, increasing temperature from the preceding one as each element dominates.

But measurements of limb darkening allow astronomers to probe the temperature of the photosphere. What they find is that the temperature increases with depth, e.g. to at least 6400 K and to 9400 K at the lowest observable level according to Tim Thompson's post solid Surface and Photosphere II. This of course will vaporize your iron crust even if the temperature does not increase.

How do you explain the increasing temperature with depth?
 
It is astonishing that those of you who believe in black holes, dark matter, inflation etc., have never seen empirical evidence of those mathematical constructions, yet utterly reject detailed images as completely without merit when they are readily available on various government/industry websites.

That's the part that amazes me as well. The images I have cited are all freely available but getting them to even look at them seems to be like pulling teeth.

You are the modern day equivalent to the church officials who wouldn't look through Galileo's telescope. You're worse, you've seen the image and say it isn't there. From your venom, I'd say if you could, you'd burn Mozina like Bruno. At the very least these images demand more investigation. At the most they shred the standard model. How could it be so wrong? Is G a charge variable. Gee zeus! look out for your grants.

FYI, DRD, tsuenfum and the other clergy here have already burned me at the stake over at BAUT. :)
 
Care to address the numbers behind your own theory, Michael? Come now, don't be shy, I did all the hard work for you already. You don't even have to do math, you just have to look at it.
 
No one of the mainstream gang here is rejecting any images (I guess you mean the SOHO images, or the pictures by Birkeland or whatever, you might be a bit more specific). However, we do reject the misinterpretation of said images by Michael Mozina, Zeuzzz and Sol88.

The obvious problem is that you never actually dealt with the images or any of the details we see in the images! You simply ignore them. I can't even get *ANYONE* to even comment on the DVD images that support my position, even when I picked out three specific events and told you where to find them. As long as you ignore the visual evidence entirely, what is there to discuss?

Now, if you would like to clarify your stance, by showing which images you mean, and what processes you think are happening, that would be very welcome. We will not burn you yet, but you are already standing on the wood pile.

How about you start by explaining the persistent features in the RD and Doppler images and peeling effect we see during the RD video? How about that Doppler image? Where is that "rigid" feature, under or over the wave in the photosphere? How about those three DVD images like that one at 30:04 where we can see the coronal loops in white light poking through the photosphere and lighting up the surface of the photosphere at the bases of the loops? How about dealing with *ANY* detail of *ANY* image?

It's like, we don't believe the views by Herschell and his contemporates either anymore, that sunspots are holes in the cloud cover around the big planet that is underneath it.

Oddly enough, when I read his work recently and how he arrived at that conclusion, his analysis of sunspots was almost identical to my own analysis. Now of course I didn't base the whole idea of a crust on the photosphere images or what I could make out inside the sunspot, but all things considered, his analysis of sunspots was highly accurate and very similar to my own thinking processes. Why is that? I had not even read his material until just recently by the way so there was no specific connection between us that would explain why or how we came to the same conclusions.

They even claimed that they could see landscapes through the "holes in the clouds" (See e.g. Chapter 2 of "The Sun Kings" by Stuart Clark).

But of course you reject that idea with a handwave even with the RD and Doppler images of persistent features?

Observations are good, and are the starting point for anything in astrophysics, but the interpretation of the images can only be done well, when one knows about the details of the possible processes and how the data handling has been done. Michael Mozina has not shown he is very capable in either of these two points.

That's rather funny coming from you since you've never personally touched a single detail of any of the images on my website. Not one single detail. Only RC managed to make a single useful comment related to cause/effect relationships related to any of the images, and all he managed to figure out is that the CME spewed plasma. Wow, what a detailed analysis.
jaw-dropping.gif
 
Enigma is my middle name.
I only reject parts of Alfvén's work which have been shown to be incorrect.

How exactly did you show his analysis of coronal loops to be "incorrect". Be specific.

I am not rejecting his "short circuit" in a coronal loop, but I do stress that this has to do with the "unwinding" of the loops, as described in detail by Raadu in section 10 [rul=http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1989PhR...178...25R]of this paper[/url] where he discusses both A&C's model for solar flares and the Kaastra model of solar flares (figure 9).

So according to Alfven, the base of the loops would be emitting photons due to current flow. Do you agree with that assessment? He also stated that the loops would come from under the photosphere and have current flowing through them *UNDER* the photosphere. Do you agree or disagree? Have you looked at the DVD images I have cited that show these loops coming up through the photosphere?

I reject his dismissal of the "frozen-in condition" of the magnetic field, because is has been shown in measurements in space that that condition is well fulfilled for many processes taking place in space.

That is absolutely false. There can be no "frozen" plasma in an environment that is composed entirely of light plasma and where coronal loops are current carrying plasma filaments. How do you get "frozen" anything in a environment that is composed of moving particles that cruise through the whole atmosphere at over a million miles per hour?

(However I do realize that when he made that comment, the general attitude in space and plasma astrophysics was to unarguably claim frozen-in field, and not look whether the conditions like diffusion time vs. process time were fulfilled).

Actually he's very clear about where the has merit (like dense plasma), vs. the places it does not apply like the light, current carrying plasma we find in the solar atmosphere.

This does not make sense, to say it is a curent carrying Bennett pinch as there cannot be a Bennett pinch if there is no current. The current comes first, the pinch might come later. (you are probably confused by the current carrying and non current carrying double layers, which are indeed different species).

The current is consistently responsible for those million degree coronal loops. That "pinch" and these emissions are a direct result of the currents that flow through the loop.

However, the "total circuit energy" (whatever that is, please define this better, but I take it to be like I L2) is not all there is, there is magnetic tension too in this process which is not included in this "total circuit energy."

At the point of "short circuit" (not magnetic reconnection) the TOTAL circuit energy determines the amount of energy released at the point of the short circuit. It is not driven by "magnetic reconnection" because the magnetic field drops to zero at a null point and the magnetic field has absolutely no energy whatsoever at a null point. The only thing that could or would release high energy particles at a any short circuit point in the loop the *CURRENT FLOW* that is running through those filaments.
 
Thanks GeeMack.

It's interesting that the simplest, most powerful step MM could take to address this issue would be to do a simple back-of-the-envelope calculation, concerning a key aspect of his idea, and post it.

Yet, in all the years, and tens of thousands of posts, he has not once actually done that.

Now if MM won't - or, perhaps, can't - do even the simplest calculation (or quantification), how could any discussion of his ideas get anywhere?
 
Another question for you Michael Mozina.
First asked 17 July 2009
The Iron Sun model assumes that the iron crust exists 4800 km below the photosphere and so must have an unspecified temperature < 2000 K (otherwise it vaporizes). The top of the photosphere is at a temperature of 5777 K.......
How do you explain the increasing temperature with depth?

How do you explain a sunspot being composed of plasma that is something like 3000 degrees cooler than the surface of the photosphere? Where does that lower temperature plasma come from and how in the world can it be *SO MUCH* cooler than the photosphere?
 
[*Any material not relevant or supporting Michael's insane fantasy edited out.*]


Now, how about that lab tested experiment, right here on Earth, mathematically consistent, physically plausible, no fudge factors, nothing metaphysical, repeatable, and objective to the extent that other people reach the same conclusion as you, that shows how you can process images gathered several thousand kilometers above the photosphere in such a way that you can see something several thousand kilometers below the photosphere.

That experiment, which clearly you have done, because all your ideas meet those standards, poses two problems according to contemporary physics. First, there is no method known to anyone except you for seeing anything in any data gathered thousands upon thousands of kilometers from the stuff you supposedly see in it. And second, the photosphere to the depths you're claiming to see, is completely opaque to everyone but you.

This has been asked dozens of times, here and on other forums, and is obviously a point of extreme interest. The explanation will certainly merit you a nomination for a Nobel prize once you let the world in on your secret method! What's the hold up, Michael? Anything in particular stopping you from showing us the experiment?
 
Thanks GeeMack.

If you're relying upon him for accurate info, you're definitely barking up the wrong tree.

It's interesting that the simplest, most powerful step MM could take to address this issue would be to do a simple back-of-the-envelope calculation, concerning a key aspect of his idea, and post it.

Oh don't worry DRD, I'm working on assembling a couple new pages for my website just for you folks.

Yet, in all the years, and tens of thousands of posts, he has not once actually done that.

Actually, that's not true, but it's silly I haven't put them all in one place, specifically my own website. That is a problem I'm working on correcting.

Now if MM won't - or, perhaps, can't - do even the simplest calculation (or quantification), how could any discussion of his ideas get anywhere?

Oh please. I have actually barked math on command for you personally (I built you a whole spreadsheet in fact) and you totally and utterly ignored it. It was a complete waste of my time. I can't even get you to address a single detail of a single image I've cited, nor comment on any of the images on my website. You have willfully and intentionally ignored these images for over four years. You're afraid to even touch them, let alone "explain" them.
 
How exactly did you show his analysis of coronal loops to be "incorrect". Be specific.

I did not show it to be incorrect, I said that it did not describe a flare. If you would please look at Michael Raadu's monograph (which I am sure you have) at the figure I mentioned, you see that Alfvén's model is the release of the circuit energy (most likely through a double layer) and does not include the ejection of part of the loop into interplanetary space.

So according to Alfven, the base of the loops would be emitting photons due to current flow. Do you agree with that assessment? He also stated that the loops would come from under the photosphere and have current flowing through them *UNDER* the photosphere. Do you agree or disagree? Have you looked at the DVD images I have cited that show these loops coming up through the photosphere?

According to mainstream the base of the loops light up too, because of the high energy electrons in the loops, they are very present in X-rays because of bremsstrahlung.
As the currents cannot just disappear, they have to flow somehow below the photosphere. I have no idea where this agree/disagree stuff comes from, not from my discussion of Alfven's work, which was only discussing that he discusses a different process that may or may not occur on the Sun (I personally have always had some difficulty with the magnetic field unwinding in the double layer at the "top" of the loop, see Raadu).


That is absolutely false. There can be no "frozen" plasma in an environment that is composed entirely of light plasma and where coronal loops are current carrying plasma filaments. How do you get "frozen" anything in a environment that is composed of moving particles that cruise through the whole atmosphere at over a million miles per hour?

Djezus frakking klyst! Can't you READ!?!?!??!!?!?!?!?!?
Was I talking about the sun? NO, I was talking in general terms. The EU community just throws out the frozen-in condition, because Alfven said it was wrong. I say, it is not wrong, you have to know when you can or cannot applie frozen-in condition. It was probably to subtile for you to understand.
And from your comment "how do you get frozen-in" shows that you have not got the foggiest what the "frozen-in" condition is. Could you write it down for us please? And where does this rediculous million miles per hour come from? I guess from the solar wind or something, and that is exactly where current papers have discussed, using measurments, when the frozen-in condition holds and when not.


Actually he's very clear about where the has merit (like dense plasma), vs. the places it does not apply like the light, current carrying plasma we find in the solar atmosphere.

What the heck is a "light" plasma, that term does not even have a physical definition (yeah I know a plasma with less density then a heavy plasma, gimme a break!)

And actually, in a "light" plasma it would be easier to have frozen in field, because there the conductivity with be much much higher then for a "heavy" plasma, but I doubt that will get across to you, as you don't know what the frozen-in condition actually is, like so many other plasmaphysical processes you don't understand.


The current is consistently responsible for those million degree coronal loops. That "pinch" and these emissions are a direct result of the currents that flow through the loop.

This is just random ranting, which does not have anything to do with what I commented on. You were talking about a "current carrying Bennet pinch" and I explained that that specification "current carrying" does not make sense, as without a current a Bennet pinch cannot happen. I did not say it did not happen, and in a pinch the heating of plasma is possible yes. I have no idea what exactly you are complaining about here, apart from the fact that you just want to complain, when I made a valid point.

At the point of "short circuit" (not magnetic reconnection) the TOTAL circuit energy determines the amount of energy released at the point of the short circuit. It is not driven by "magnetic reconnection" because the magnetic field drops to zero at a null point and the magnetic field has absolutely no energy whatsoever at a null point. The only thing that could or would release high energy particles at a any short circuit point in the loop the *CURRENT FLOW* that is running through those filaments.

I was not talking about magnetic reconnection, you might have noticed, I was just complaining about the ill-defined term "total circuit energy" (which again you did not define here, but anywhooooooo).

The fact that I was talking about magnetic tension is because in the loop the magnetic field lines are ... looping, and thus there is magnetic tension (even in Alfven's theories there is magnetic tension) and I was just saying that that probably does not get into the calculation of the "circuit energy." That was all, nothing more nothing less.

Next to your misunderstanding of reconnection, there is indeed a small region which is a null point, but then in a much much larger region there are bent field lines, which have tension, but that is all besides the point that I was discussing.

So please go to the Raadu monograph and look at the difference between the Alfven & Carlqvist model for energy release and e.g. the Kaastra model for energy release. It is two very different processes.
 
Why Sunspots Are Cool

How do you explain a sunspot being composed of plasma that is something like 3000 degrees cooler than the surface of the photosphere? Where does that lower temperature plasma come from and how in the world can it be *SO MUCH* cooler than the photosphere?
That's easy. The magnetic field that surrounds the sunspot inhibits convection. So, the plasma inside the sunspot emits thermal radiation just like the rest of the photosphere, but since no hot plasma can convect into the spot, the energy lost as radiation is not replaced and the spot consequently cools to a lower equilibrium temperature than the rest of the photosphere. The heat energy that does not get into the sunspot is stored in the surrounding photosphere, which has a slightly higher temperature. We can see this manifested as a brighter "plage" region around sunspots. See "Why Spots Are Cool", section 8.2.2, page 249-250 in the book Solar Astrophysics by Peter V. Foukal (Wiley-VCH, 2004, 2nd edition).
 
That's easy. The magnetic field that surrounds the sunspot inhibits convection. So, the plasma inside the sunspot emits thermal radiation just like the rest of the photosphere, but since no hot plasma can convect into the spot, the energy lost as radiation is not replaced and the spot consequently cools to a lower equilibrium temperature than the rest of the photosphere.

Obviously you've been brainwashed by conventional thermodynamics. You probably don't think that heat can spontaneously transfer from a lower temperature object to a higher temperature object either.
 
Obviously you've been brainwashed by conventional thermodynamics.

No, evidently he's relying upon "magic magnetic fields" that do anything you want them to do, anytime you need them to do something you can't otherwise explain. How does a magnetic field, devoid of physical substance, form under an incredibly large area of the solar interior in a way that is going to block the upwelling of plasma over such a huge area? What does that kind of magnetic field even look like exactly, and *HOW* is it blocking the flow of plasma?

How come these sunspots are *ALWAYS* associated with 171A "hot spots"? Let me guess. Now these magic magnetic fields not only block the flow of plasma from the interior inside the sun, they then performing nifty high energy magic tricks *OVER* the the sunspot too? Tell me exactly what this magnetic field looks like that allows for all this to occur?
 
How come these sunspots are *ALWAYS* associated with 171A "hot spots"? Let me guess. Now these magic magnetic fields not only block the flow of plasma from the interior inside the sun, they then performing nifty high energy magic tricks *OVER* the the sunspot too? Tell me exactly what this magnetic field looks like that allows for all this to occur?

Well, the solution to this is easy. It's magnetic fields and 171A is supposed to be iron and iron is magnetic, so the sunspots attract all the iron that is floating around, and iron is dark, so the sunspots are darker than the rest of the surface of the Sun. Simple comme bonjour!
 
My posts #806, #819, and #829 are still being ignored. Could be because they ask questions Michael is simply not capable of answering.

And we still haven't seen that experiment that shows how Michael can see 4000+ kilometers below the opaque photosphere by staring for a very long time at a difference graph made from data obtained several thousand kilometers above that opaque photosphere.

Come on, Michael, be honest. There is no such experiment, is there?

(I predict ignorance, lies, and/or a whiny complaint. No reply to my actual concerns will be forthcoming.)
 
Magnetic Fields Block Plasma

What does that kind of magnetic field even look like exactly, and *HOW* is it blocking the flow of plasma?
This is a joke, right? You forgot the :) right? How does a magnetic field block plasma? I have a better question: Can you imagine any magnetic field that does not block plasma? That's your homework problem, so get to it. :D
 
This is a joke, right? You forgot the :) right? How does a magnetic field block plasma? I have a better question: Can you imagine any magnetic field that does not block plasma? That's your homework problem, so get to it. :D

I can "imagine" many things. Blocking the flow of plasma over an area the size of the Earth however is no small feat. What kind of "magnetic field" does something like that? Why are sunspots always related to coronal loop activity if the mass flows to block plasma flows are located under the photosphere?
 
Well, the solution to this is easy. It's magnetic fields

Which magnetic fields? The ones over or under the photosphere?

and 171A is supposed to be iron and iron is magnetic, so the sunspots attract all the iron that is floating around,

Er, wouldn't it attract *ALL charge particles*?

and iron is dark,

Not that iron. It's a million degrees or more.

so the sunspots are darker than the rest of the surface of the Sun. Simple comme bonjour!

Simply "impossible" is a better description. :)
 
I'm still waiting for a response, Michael.

My response is that you made your mistake here:

Now the visible layer of the sun is radiating about 3.8x1028 Watts outwards, but that layer will radiate inwards as well.

Why? That heat is directly related to the continuous outbound flow of heated particles and the surface of the photosphere does not radiate like a "black body". It's far too thin and far too homogeneously made of neon to act like a black body.
 

Because that's what thermally radiating bodies do: they radiate in all directions.

That heat is directly related to the continuous outbound flow of heated particles

Doesn't matter what it's "related" to. The radiation is still going to go in all directions.

and the surface of the photosphere does not radiate like a "black body". It's far too thin and far too homogeneously made of neon to act like a black body.

I don't care what you want to call it (which is why avoided using the word "photosphere"), and at the moment I don't even care what it is. But whatever it is, there's a 6000 K opaque layer which is radiating like a blackbody. We can SEE that, Michael. And it's radiating in all directions, both outwards and inwards.

Notably and predictably absent from your response was any estimation of the correct numbers.
 
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I did not show it to be incorrect, I said that it did not describe a flare.

It does describe the flare. See section four.
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/A...r Atmosphere And A Theory Of Solar Flares.pdf

According to mainstream the base of the loops light up too, because of the high energy electrons in the loops, they are very present in X-rays because of bremsstrahlung.

So if loops come up through the photosphere we should be able to observe them, correct? Did you watch that DVD yet and specifically the three flares I cited?

As the currents cannot just disappear, they have to flow somehow below the photosphere.

Then the loops could and would emit light under the photosphere would they not?

I have no idea where this agree/disagree stuff comes from, not from my discussion of Alfven's work, which was only discussing that he discusses a different process that may or may not occur on the Sun

He specifically called magnetic reconnection theory pseudoscience:

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/Alfven/Double Layers In Astrophysics.pdf


B. Magnetic Merging -- A Pseudo-Science

Since then I have stressed in a large number of papers the danger of using the frozen-in concept. For example, in a paper "Electric Current Structure of the Magnetosphere" (Alfv6n, 1975), I made a table showing the difference between the real plasma and "a fictitious medium" called "the pseudo-plasma," the latter having frozen in magnetic field lines moving with the plasma. The most important criticism of the "merging" mechanism of energy transfer is due to Heikkila (1973) who with increasing strength has demonstrated that it is wrong. In spite of all this, we have witnessed at the same time an enormously voluminous formalism building up based on this obviously erroneous concept. Indeed, we have been burdened with a gigantic pseudo-science which penetrates large parts of cosmic plasma physics. The monograph CP treats the field-line reconnection (merging) concept in I. 3, II. 3, and I1.5. We may conclude that anyone who uses the merging concepts states by implication that no double layers exist.

A new epoch in magnetospheric physics was inaugurated by L. Lyons and D. Williams' monograph (1985). They treat magnetospheric phenomena systematically by the particle approach and demonstrate that the fluid dynamic approach gives erroneous results. The error of the latter approach is of a basic character. Of course there can be no magnetic merging energy transfer. I was naive enough to believe that such a pseudo-science would die by itself in the scientific community, and I concentrated my work on more pleasant problems. To my great surprise the opposite has occurred; the "merging" pseudo-science seems to be increasingly powerful. Magnetospheric physics and solar wind physics today are no doubt in a chaotic state, and a major reason for this is that some (I personally have always had some difficulty with the magnetic field unwinding in the double layer at the "top" of the loop, see Raadu) of the published papers are science and part pseudoscience, perhaps even with a majority for the latter group.

Why do you continue to promote what Alfven referred to as pseudoscience?
 
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Because that's what thermally radiating bodies do: they radiate in all directions.

It's not doing that! It's emitting *HEATED PARTICLES* that flow outward.

Doesn't matter what it's "related" to. The radiation is still going to go in all directions.

It is not. It is *FLOWING* away from the surface, toward the heliosphere.

I don't care what you want to call it (which is why avoided using the word "photosphere"), and at the moment I don't even care what it is. But whatever it is, there's a 6000 K opaque layer which is radiating like a blackbody.

No, it's not. The whole thing radiates as a "black body" perhaps, but it isn't the photosphere that does that.

We can SEE that, Michael. And it's radiating in all directions, both outwards and inwards.

No. All you "see" is white light being emitted from mostly neon photosphere. The heat is related to the particle flow, not the surface of the photosphere. It does *NOT* act like a "black body" at the surface at the surface of the photosphere. You *ASSUMED* that.
 
It's not doing that! It's emitting *HEATED PARTICLES* that flow outward.

I don't care what you think is going on, there is a 6000K layer of the sun which is radiating like a blackbody. We can SEE that. And that radiation will go in all directions.

It is not. It is *FLOWING* away from the surface, toward the heliosphere.

Radiation does not "flow". And even if the source of the radiation is flowing outwards, the radiation itself will travel in all directions.

No, it's not. The whole thing radiates as a "black body" perhaps, but it isn't the photosphere that does that.

Once again, I DON'T CARE what layer is doing it. Whatever it is that's radiating as a 6000 K blackbody, it sure as hell isn't underneath your solid layer. And it's going to radiate both outwards and inwards. Claiming it's not the photosphere (which makes no sense, given how the term photosphere is defined) doesn't help you in any way, shape, or form.

No. All you "see" is white light being emitted from mostly neon photosphere.

What we see is a 6000 K blackbody spectrum. That IS the "white light" that we see. You aren't under the delusion that "white light" is a specific frequency, are you?

The heat is related to the particle flow, not the surface of the photosphere. It does *NOT* act like a "black body" at the surface at the surface of the photosphere. You *ASSUMED* that.

No, Michael. I've been very explicit about this: I make no assumptions about where exactly this blackbody spectrum is coming from. I don't care if you want to attribute it to something under the photosphere or not: it's still coming from somewhere. And whatever it is that's giving off 6000 K blackbody outwards is also going to be giving off 6000 K blackbody radiation inwards. That's not an assumption, that's the way blackbody radiation works.
 
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It's not doing that! It's emitting *HEATED PARTICLES* that flow outward.

It is not. It is *FLOWING* away from the surface, toward the heliosphere.

No, it's not. The whole thing radiates as a "black body" perhaps, but it isn't the photosphere that does that.

No. All you "see" is white light being emitted from mostly neon photosphere. The heat is related to the particle flow, not the surface of the photosphere. It does *NOT* act like a "black body" at the surface at the surface of the photosphere. You *ASSUMED* that.


Those temper tantrums of yours are so, uh, mature, Michael. Jesus, and you call other people childish.

Now where was that lab tested experiment, no fudge factors, nothing metaphysical, mathematically sound, physically reasonable, repeatable, and objective to where other people can reach the same conclusion you reach that shows how you can gather thermal data from many thousand kilometers above the Sun's photosphere and run it through a program that makes it into a difference graph that lets you see something many thousand kilometers below the photosphere?

And how about after all these years and all these people explaining every single detail of those precious running difference images, how about you take a shot at it, Michael. Interesting that you have never ventured to explain why each pixel in those images is the color that it is.

And just how thick is that solid crusty surface on the Sun? How dense? And how about it's thermal characteristics? What temperature is it and how does that square with the elemental composition of that surface? Oh, while you're at it, how about you put some numbers to that elemental composition? In fact, use actual numbers to answer all these questions, because without those kinds of numbers, your claim that there is a solid surface is not rational.

And why is it that you claim Oliver Manuel's work supports your insane solid surface fantasy when in fact he has never said he agrees with the notion?

Oh, and why is it that you use Dr. Hurlburt and LMSAL's research even though he has unambiguously stated that it doesn't show what you think it shows?

And speaking of your lousy attempts to hijack support, is there some reason Alexander Kosovichev says you're completely wrong about your understanding of his research, yet you continue to try to use it to support your delusion?

And maybe you can shed some light on that silly claim you continue to make about Birkeland proposing that the Sun has a solid surface, when nobody, including you, Michael, has ever found anything he said that would support your claim.

You know, I'm just askin'. And reminding any newcomers that you've never been able to support your fantasy with anything other than your ridiculous looks-like-a-bunny lunacy. :D
 
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