Electric universe theories here.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Neither of them proposed the cathode refrigeration that you have.

Where have you seen me ever use the term "cathode refrigeration"? What does that have to do with the *ISSUE* we are focused on now, specifically the "coronal loop discharges" in the solar atmosphere?

So none of the quantitative work that they did can answer the questions I have about your model.

Ok. Now please deal with the parts of their work that *DO* jive with my model, specifically the discharges in the solar atmosphere. We'll come back to the other issues once we get through the discharge debate.

Because the math that has been presented doesn't relate to the ideas you have put forward.

Boloney. That math by Bruce and Alfven directly relates to *any* electric oriented solar model, including Birkeland's solar model. You're simply afraid to deal with it and you are incapable of dealing with it. That is why you are avoiding it like the plague and making up any old excuse to not deal with it.
 
Where have you seen me ever use the term "cathode refrigeration"?

I never said you used the term. But the term accurately describes what you have advocated.

Ok. Now please deal with the parts of their work that *DO* jive with my model, specifically the discharges in the solar atmosphere. We'll come back to the other issues once we get through the discharge debate.

I'm willing to accept everything they say for the purpose of examining your cathode refrigeration ideas. But since nothing they say addresses my questions about your ideas (how much matter flow is there, what drives it off your solid surface, how much heat can it carry away, etc), since they never advocated what you're advocating in regards to your proposed solid surface, you still have quite a bit you need to fill in. I tried doing the calculations to fill in those blanks. You did not accept the calculations I performed, but neither could you show where I made any errors, or present what you consider better numbers.

So stop being a whiny crybaby and pony up some numbers, Michael.
 
So stop being a whiny crybaby and pony up some numbers, Michael.

I already did that. I provided you with 250+ papers by Alfven, and Bruce's work too. You utterly ignored it. You now insist on deflecting the conversation *AWAY FROM* the topic of discussion. Instead you expect me personally to bark math on command for you, in some vain hope that I will make a mistake and you can ridicule EU theory for all time because of my personal mistake. That is of course utterly irrational behavior, but that is *EXACTLY* what you are intent on doing. I won't play along.

We'll come back to your "cathode refrigeration" thing once I've had time to read through some of those papers you turned me on to today and once you've dealt with those coronal loops. Those discharges are the single most *obvious* thing visible from the sun in the highest energy wavelengths. That's a *much* easier place to start, and all the math we need has already been written, not by me, but by others with far better math skills and a far better understanding of electrical engineering. Why settle for the water boy when you can have a real professional math pitcher on the mound?
 
I already did that. I provided you with 250+ papers by Alfven, and Bruce's work too. You utterly ignored it.

Because none of them provide numbers on your proposed cathode refrigeration.

Instead you expect me personally to bark math on command for you

No, Michael. I want you to back up your ideas. I don't expect you to do that, though, because you never do. You fail, every single time, to quantify anything you say. Hell, you fail to quantify anything even when I do the math for you.

We'll come back to your "cathode refrigeration" thing once I've had time to read through some of those papers you turned me on to today and once you've dealt with those coronal loops.

You must be mistaking me for someone else. I didn't link to any papers today, and for our current conversation, I'm willing to accept everything Alfven, Bruce, and even you say about what causes coronal loop heating. We're still left with your idea (an idea not shared by Alfven or Bruce) about a solid shell and cathode refrigeration. An idea that, well, just doesn't work.
 
Because none of them provide numbers on your proposed cathode refrigeration.

In other words, this is now your silly excuse for not dealing with the coronal loops?

No, Michael. I want you to back up your ideas.

I am backing up *PART OF* my theories right now, but you won't deal with it. You want me to support your issue of choice. I'm sure everyone has a favorite math trick they would like to see Michael do for no good reason. You haven't and won't address the mathematics that has been given you on other parts of this theory in over 200 papers by Alfven and Bruce, so why should I have any reason to think that more math will matter to you one iota? If the guy with the Nobel prize can't convince you of circuits in space, what hope do I have of doing that for you?

I don't expect you to do that, though, because you never do.

Ya, and I don't expect you do deal with any of the actual image I've provided or any of the mathematical presentations by Birkeland, Bruce and Alfven either. You *NEVER* focus on anything you do have, but always on what you want next even before processing the other information.

You fail, every single time, to quantify anything you say.

Bull. I quantified those discharge processes for you just fine. You just don't want to deal with Bruce's presentations, or Alfven's presentations. You expect me to be your personal math mommy. Forgetaboutit.

Hell, you fail to quantify anything even when I do the math for you.

You did it all wrong. If that specific math is important to you personally, then go read about "cathode refrigeration" and apply some of *THOSE* mathematical models based on the observed number of electrons coming off the sun and see what you come up with.

You must be mistaking me for someone else.

At times the word "you" actually refers to your whole clan of EU antagonists. I've provided lots of links in this thread.

I didn't link to any papers today, and for our current conversation, I'm willing to accept everything Alfven, Bruce, and even you say about what causes coronal loop heating.

Cool. Welcome as the newest advocate of EU theory.

We're still left with your idea (an idea not shared by Alfven or Bruce) about a solid shell and cathode refrigeration.

First of all it is not "my" idea, nor have I *EVER* tried to take credit for it. It is Birkeland's model, in fact it's a model developed by a whole team of friends 100 years before I ever even thought of the idea.

You've never sat down and calculated any "real" numbers based on any of those papers I found on cathode refrigeration. You calculated a number that relates to a mythical sun that has no million mile particles flying off it's surface.
 
I am backing up *PART OF* my theories right now, but you won't deal with it.

Because I'm interested in the thermodynamically impossible aspect of your theory.

You want me to support your issue of choice.

My issue of choice? Well, in a sense I've chosen it, but I've chosen it from among the ideas that you (and as far as I can tell, you alone) have advocated.

I'm sure everyone has a favorite math trick they would like to see Michael do for no good reason.

Quantifying your ideas is not a trick, Michael. It's what scientists do.

You haven't and won't address the mathematics that has been given you on other parts of this theory in over 200 papers by Alfven and Bruce

I have no need to. I'm not disputing their ideas, I'm disputing yours.

If the guy with the Nobel prize can't convince you of circuits in space, what hope do I have of doing that for you?

I'm not asking you to convince me of circuits in space, I'm asking you to support your claim that a solid shell can exist in the sun underneath a 6000K layer. Accepting everything Alfven and Bruce ever said doesn't make that idea reasonable or even plausible.

Bull. I quantified those discharge processes for you just fine. You just don't want to deal with Bruce's presentations, or Alfven's presentations.

Neither of them explained how any such discharges could refrigerate a solid surface underneath a 6000 K layer. Which is what you're claiming. "Dealing with" Alfven and Bruce doesn't help here.

You did it all wrong. If that specific math is important to you personally, then go read about "cathode refrigeration" and apply some of *THOSE* mathematical models based on the observed number of electrons coming off the sun and see what you come up with.

Neither Aflven nor Bruce ever wrote about cathode refrigeration. This is your idea, not theirs, and to the best of my knowledge it's unique to you. If you want to point me to a source which details cathode refrigeration, I'd be happy to take a look. But as far as I can tell, there are no such models. Try a google search on the term, and let me know what you find.

First of all it is not "my" idea

The cathode refrigeration sure as hell is.

You've never sat down and calculated any "real" numbers based on any of those papers I found on cathode refrigeration.

You presented no papers on cathode refrigeration.

You calculated a number that relates to a mythical sun that has no million mile particles flying off it's surface.

Not so. I did my calculation using two different methods, one of which was explicitly based upon the solar wind.
 
MM: Were you verbally abused as a child or what?

Should I take that as a "Yes"?


Actually if you had reading comprehension skills above that of a fourth grade child, and if you weren't so dead set on remaining an ignorant liar, you'd take that as a request for you to actually support your insane claim.

So when are you going to take down that running difference graph, Michael, that first image on your web site, the one that doesn't actually demonstrate that there's any scientific foundation for your crackpot delusion? You said yourself that all your ideas are supported by lab tested experiments, done right here on Earth, with no fudge factors and nothing metaphysical, repeatable, mathematically sound, physically consistent, and objective so that other people can reach the same conclusion you've reached.

You haven't been able to provide such an experiment to show how you can see thousands of kilometers through a layer of opaque plasma by looking at a graphical representation of a series of calculations done using data obtained from thousands of kilometers above that plasma. Since it's apparent that no such experiment can be done, due in part to the simple impossibility involved, the question remains, when will you take down that graphic and stop your lie that it is some kind of evidence?

FYI, I left out an important word from my previous response Humanzee. It should have read:

I would say that the heliosiesmology data is a close second as it relates to evidence, because that subsurface stratification is *NOT* "predicted" to exist at that location in standard solar theory. It is however "predicted" in a Birkeland solar model.
Sorry for any confusion.


Actually, Humanzee, that is just another of Michael's many and oft repeated lies. There is no evidence, none whatsoever aside from Michael's pitiful pleading, that might indicate the Sun is in any significant way constructed any differently than described in what we'd call the standard solar model. Kristian Birkeland never made any predictions whatsoever about a solid layer of any sort at any location on the Sun. Michael lives with this odd delusion which he can't support in any objective way, and rather than come to grips with it and seek the professional help that might do him some good, he continues to pass off part of the responsibility for his problem on a dead guy. :boggled:
 
You, Tim, Zig and tusenfum have convinced me that it is time for me to "move on" for awhile and focus on making a living for the next few months. If you're too damn lazy to download a video and watch it, I can't really help you. I really don't know why you feel compelled to argue your points from a place of pure ignorance. It's *SO* frustrating. The four of you need to decide if you're serious. If so, you'll download the images and watch them, and specifically find the image I cited, and the image right before that one, and right after that image and you will study all three images *VERY* closely. If not, oh well.

I realized before this conversation began that your collective isn't particularly attentive to detail, but the whole group of you can't seem to locate a single white light image with two weeks of my help trying to explain it to you! Most of you won't even be bothered to actually get the image and look at it! That isn't "science", that is "couch potato pseudoscience" and self imposed ignorance.

If you want to continue our conversation, it has to be *ONE ISSUE AT A TIME*, starting with the coronal loops and why they reach millions of degrees. We can talk about all the other aspects of this solar model once you've address those loops. There's no point in getting dragged into a million different sub conversations. We can only tackle this one issue at a time, and I'm going to require that you do some homework if you expect me to respond to you in the future.

Let me know when you've finally "seen the light' in the form of a white light loop on April 15, 2001 at 13:55:01.
And what has your running away to do with the question?
Or any of the more than 20 questions that you also cannot answer?
Originally Posted by Reality Check
What is your physical evidence for the "mostly deuterium" layer?

As for the coronal heating problem (for which scientists have a coupel of good theories that actually give predictions):
Where are your calculations and predictions for coronal heating from the Iron Sun model?
My guess - yet more "look at the pretty pictures" non-science.
 
Which still tells us nothing about whether your iron shell idea can maintain a temperature far below the 6000 K layer of the sun that we see. I've asked you to quantify your ideas. You repeatedly refuse, even though such a task is easy. Very well, I shall endeavor to do so for you.

Let's say we've got mass being ejected from your solid surface. This mass is supposedly taking heat away with it - it therefore must be mostly on a one-way journey, or else it would take heat back with it from somewhere hotter, and so the solid shell would heat up. So how much mass can we lose on a continual basis? Well, let's ballpark this as being about the same amount of mass we get in the solar wind (that way we don't make the atmosphere above our solid shell any thicker or thinner). That's about 6.7 billion tons per hour, or about 1.7x109 kg/s. Now the visible layer of the sun is radiating about 3.8x1028 Watts outwards, but that layer will radiate inwards as well. In order to keep from heating up, we need to carry away the heat from this. But let's be generous. Let's suppose (with no evidence) that your solid surface is incredibly reflective, so that only 1% of the light is absorbed. Now we only need to carry away 3.8x1026 Joules/sec. This means that each kg of mass that's being ejected must carry with it 2.2x1017 Joules. In other words, each kg must absorb more than twice its own rest mass in energy. Which, let's be frank, is an absolute absurdity.

OK, so let's see if we can fudge these numbers a bit. Let's suppose that we instead start with a more reasonable heat absorption, and then try to figure out the mass. The energy to ionize a hydrogen atom is 13.6 eV, which corresponds to 1.3x109 J/kg. Each proton and electron will act like an ideal gas molecule in the plasma state, so if we heat up from 0 to 6000 K (we can't heat up any more than that), we get 1.57 J/kg. So the total is still about 1.3x109 J/kg. Of course, I'm being incredibly generous here, since not all the gas would be ionized, and that's clearly the dominant contribution to the heat capacity at these temperatures. So again assuming only 1% absorption, how much mass do we need? 2.9x1017 kg/s. That's eight orders of magnitude larger than the solar wind. How long could the interior of the sun last losing this much mass? Well, the sun is about 2x1030 kg, so that's about 6.9x1012 seconds, or roughly 220,000 years. Again, absurd. Clearly that's far too large a mass flow to be sustainable.

The numbers don't work out, Michael. Not by MANY orders of magnitude. This took me maybe 10 minutes. Back of the envelope calculations. Easy to do, no fancy calculus, just simple multiplication, unit conversions, and easy-to-find input numbers. But you didn't do anything like this. You didn't test the fundamental parameters of your own theory to test whether it made even the slightest amount of sense. If you did, you would have realized how absurd it was. Now that you've had the calculations presented to you, what will you make of them? Will you realize your mistake? Or will you bury your head in the sand?

Too late to expect a reply to this post from a couple of weeks ago - according to MM's last post he has gone away to bury his head in the sand :eye-poppi !
 
Intelligent Alternatives

There is only a single frame in each of the images where the loops are clearly visible. ... Tell me when you find it and well discuss the footprints we observe in the image and the shape of those footprints.
Indeed I could not see the white light flare at all without stepping through the video frame by frame. Yes, the flare is visible in both white light & EUV. But I still see no reason to assert that the EUV image shows the photosphere, other than "it looks like it could be". is that all the reason you have , or is there some real, quantitative reason at hand?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_force
So really, it's the whole QM theory you oppose, not just me?
Show me where that link, or any other source, tells you that static magnetic or electric fields are made of photons. You simply avoided the point altogether. No, you have made a mistake by assuming wrongly that "photons" would include all electric and magnetic field phenomena.

This "reconnection" process is taking place between two twisting tornado like filaments in plasma that are carrying "current flow" through them.
No, absolutely wrong & absolutely impossible. I would not expect you to understand this, since it is your habit to ignore all "controlled experiments" that disagree with you religious pre-conceptions. To begin with, the experiments show that the magnetic field changes configuration first, and then the currents gain energy equal to the energy lost by the magnetic field. The reconnection of the magnetic field and not the currents is unquestionably what happens. On this you are dead wrong.

Furthermore, the "particle reconnection" or "circuit reconnection", as you choose to say, is physically impossible, as I have already pointed out before, since it violates the fundamental law of conservation of energy. You can't combine two "currents" and wind up with more energy than the sum of the energies of the two currents. But in the magnetic reconnection experiments and satellite & astronomical observations show that the energy goes up by orders of magnitude, far beyond anything you could hope to explain by "circuit reconnection". Why can't you just accept simple & obvious physics? Where does this personal war you wage against science come from?

I really wanted to focus on the satellite images, but more often than not these folks go off on some tangent and never address the actual images. That is *HIGHLY* disappointing IMO.
You vastly overestimate the value of the satellite images. There is nothing at all about them which will differentiate between your electric discharge claims vs the standard physics. You need instead to find something which will clearly distinguish between your off-beat ideas and the standard physics (and you need to do a lot of learning about that physics).

You, Tim, Zig and tusenfum have convinced me that it is time for me to "move on" for awhile and focus on making a living for the next few months. ... I really don't know why you feel compelled to argue your points from a place of pure ignorance. It's *SO* frustrating.
No kidding! Trying to have an intelligent conversation with you is so frustrating for me I have to quit and go away for a few days at a time just to keep from posting something that would get me banned from every board that ever existed. You have no concept of the fundamental principle of intellectual honesty that underpins all science. You always & invariably ignore everything that conflicts with your "religious" bias. You demand "controlled laboratory experiments", and then reject them all without even looking at them. What good is it to even try, when we know in advance that you will always ... always evade the question and ignore the point? Why bother to look at your images when we know in advance that you will not pay attention to anything anyone says? You can rest assured that you yourself are every bit as frustrating to talk to as you think everyone else is.

If you want to continue our conversation, it has to be *ONE ISSUE AT A TIME*, starting with the coronal loops and why they reach millions of degrees.
You're the one who wants a "conversation". One topic at a time is quite the way to do it, and you could have done it if you wanted to. I don't want to carry on a conversation, but I will respond if you start another one like this. I think the ideas that you present are exceptionally bad and poorly thought out. I want to make sure there is counter battery fire to demonstrate that intelligent alternatives exist.
 
Evidently they can't navigate a DVD menu. They are clearly marked as WL for white light. When you eventually do download the DVD (I'll shame you into it eventually), go to the menu, select "Movie Controls", pick "X Flares Part 1".

You will see the movie in question is marked "2001 April 9 WL". Evidently that view spans several days. The other (close up) view of that flare is marked "April 15 WL".
Got the DVD and selected Movie Controls pick "X Flares Part 1".

"2001 April 9 WL" is a WL movie which starts looking down in some sunspots and then the Sun rotates. By 13:55:01 on 15 April 2001 the sunspots are on the limb and they flicker over a couple of frames.

"2001 April 15 WL" is a closeup of the action and I see actvity for a single frame. There are a couple of bright spots linked by an arch. This looks like the emergence of the magnetic field of a coronal loop from below the photosphere.
Whatever is happening is happening on top of the sunspot but there is no way to see the origin of the flicker. To see that you would need several frames to trace it back to the origin.

Conclusion: There is no actual flare shown in the visible light (WL) movie. This is to be expected from an image in white light of an X-ray flare.

So the sensible thing to do is to have a look and see what is happening in other wavelengths, i.e. the "2001 April 15 WL" and "2001 April 15" (probably 171A) and "2001 April 15 1600" movies. These show the activity above the sunspot extending into the corona.
The "2001 April 15 1600" clearly shows a flare rising above the sunspot to be quite obvious at 13:45:29 with lots of activity in a broad area above the sunspot. By 13:55:54 the flare have vanished but the acttivity is very bright. In the next hour coronal loops poke up and there is quite an elegent arcade formed.
The "2001 April 15" movie is similiar but with a great deal of static due to saturation starting from 13:25 and lasting to 14:10. This is especially bad at between 13:43 and 13:50.
 
Last edited:
If any one is still interested this is the movie frame that Michael Mozina is talking about.
15 April 2001 WL.gif

I would say that the bright areas are on top of the sunspot which is on top of the photosphere. The arch looks like a magnetic field as you see in coronal loops. If there was something "emerging" from the photosphere then there should be a bright area under the arch marking the disturbance as it pushed through the sunspot.

I have no idea how Michael Mozina gets a flare emerging from under the sunspot and photosphere from this picture.
 
Where have you seen me ever use the term "cathode refrigeration"? What does that have to do with the *ISSUE* we are focused on now, specifically the "coronal loop discharges" in the solar atmosphere?



Ok. Now please deal with the parts of their work that *DO* jive with my model, specifically the discharges in the solar atmosphere. We'll come back to the other issues once we get through the discharge debate.



Boloney. That math by Bruce and Alfven directly relates to *any* electric oriented solar model, including Birkeland's solar model. You're simply afraid to deal with it and you are incapable of dealing with it. That is why you are avoiding it like the plague and making up any old excuse to not deal with it.


[/lurk]
MM, you cliamed that the flow of electrons carries heat away from the allegedly solid iron shell in the sun.

This can be labeled 'cathode refrigeration', where is your data and experiment to support it?
Hmmmmm.
[lurk]
 
If any one is still interested this is the movie frame that Michael Mozina is talking about.

15 April 2001 WL.gif


VERY COOL! Just out of curiosity, how did you capture the image, and what DVD playing software did you use? I'd like to be able to capture a number of images, particularly the image directly before and directly after that image so we can discuss all three images at once and look at the changes between the three images.

I would say that the bright areas are on top of the sunspot which is on top of the photosphere. The arch looks like a magnetic field as you see in coronal loops. If there was something "emerging" from the photosphere then there should be a bright area under the arch marking the disturbance as it pushed through the sunspot.

FYI, The smoking gun "disturbance" that you're looking for can be found in the changes that occur between the image directly before this image, and this image. Notice the changes that occur in the photosphere in the area centered directly in the middle of where the flare loops emerge.

Notice that the bases of the loops are "contoured" around the sunspots. Why?

I have no idea how Michael Mozina gets a flare emerging from under the sunspot and photosphere from this picture.

Well, you'll need all three images probably to confirm the "emergence" part. If you wouldn't mind posting those two additional images (before and after) as well, I think we can continue this conversation in a rational manner now what all of you can finally "see the loops" in white light, and see the effect on the surface of the photosphere.

Note that even in this image alone, the bases of the loops are contoured around the sunspots? Why is that? Note too that that if the bases of the loops are emerging through the photosphere, we would see that white light effect on the surface of the photosphere as additional currents are flowing through that loop. That is *EXACTLY* the same thing we would expect if that NASA video I posted earlier is accurately portraying the movement of loops.

http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a010000/a010000/a010074/index.html

Sunspots_pre.jpg

UnderSunspot340_web.png

http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a010000/a010000/a010074/Sunspots.mpg
 
Last edited:
"2001 April 15 WL" is a closeup of the action and I see actvity for a single frame. There are a couple of bright spots linked by an arch.

And that is exactly what we would expect to observe if the loops come up through the photosphere. The loops light up the photosphere due to the increased electrical activity inside those loops.

This looks like the emergence of the magnetic field of a coronal loop from below the photosphere.

I agree.

Whatever is happening is happening on top of the sunspot but there is no way to see the origin of the flicker.

Well, not in this image per se, but if you look at the previous image, you can see that the light is already shining through the photosphere, but the loops have not reached up through the photosphere in that image. If you look at the area directly under the where the loops emerge, you will see significant changes to the surface of the photosphere between the sunspots between the image directly before that flare, and that flare. The surface of the photosphere undergoes changes as a result of the emerging flare loops.

To see that you would need several frames to trace it back to the origin.

Yep. The image directly before this one, combined with this image are the two most important frames of the movie IMO.

Conclusion: There is no actual flare shown in the visible light (WL) movie.

What? You don't see those bright loops?

This is to be expected from an image in white light of an X-ray flare.

Well, yes, but you can still see it in white light! Birkeland could also see his loops in white light, but it does not mean that that is the *ONLY* wavelength that the loops emit.

So the sensible thing to do is to have a look and see what is happening in other wavelengths,

Well, ok, but I think we should start with the image directly preceding this image and look for changes due to the emergence of the loops. We can then go back to looking at other wavelengths, but first we need to "analyze" what's going on in WL before we go on to other wavelengths.

How about posting the image directly before that one so we can all see the changes that occur in the photosphere as a result of the emerging flare?
 
Last edited:
For the record RC....

Now that you have actually located the frame in question, who turned out to be a more reliable observer of these images, me, Tim or tusenfem? Hell, they couldn't even find the frame that you evidently found pretty easily once you finally downloaded the DVD.
 
Indeed I could not see the white light flare at all without stepping through the video frame by frame.

Well, if you want to analyze these images, you'll need to look at the frames directly preceding that image, and the image right after it. Notice the changes to the photosphere, particularly the area directly under the loops.

Yes, the flare is visible in both white light & EUV.

It's pretty much visible on almost every wavelength, just like any ordinary lightening strike here on Earth.

But I still see no reason to assert that the EUV image shows the photosphere,

It doesn't. The WL images show the photosphere.

other than "it looks like it could be". is that all the reason you have , or is there some real, quantitative reason at hand?

We haven't even discussed the "qualitatiive" aspects of this image yet or the basic things we can get from these images yet. You're already trying to quantify everything *WITHOUT* even discussing the physical process that made this image possible.

Show me where that link, or any other source, tells you that static magnetic or electric fields are made of photons.

QM suggests this. Most electrical theory classes are based on a 19th century understanding of EM fields.

I'm going to skip that part of the conversation to focus on those loops for awhile if you don't mind.

No kidding! Trying to have an intelligent conversation with you is so frustrating for me I have to quit and go away for a few days at a time just to keep from posting something that would get me banned from every board that ever existed. You have no concept of the fundamental principle of intellectual honesty that underpins all science.

That might have some 'sting' to it and not sound so ironic were it not for the fact you didn't even know there were white light images on the CD and you lead RC down the primrose path, accusing *ME* of not knowing what was on the CD Tim. You did us *ALL* a disservice by not doing your homework like I asked. The "intellectually honest' thing to do is to make a real effort to find the images in question *BEFORE* accusing me of being wrong, don't you think?
 
Show me where that link, or any other source, tells you that static magnetic or electric fields are made of photons. You simply avoided the point altogether. No, you have made a mistake by assuming wrongly that "photons" would include all electric and magnetic field phenomena.

Actually, it is possible to think of static classical field configurations as composed of photons. The "static" part isn't a problem - a photon is a single quantum of a mode of the field (or more precisely a wave-packet). But you can take the fourier transform of a static field and see that it's a superposition of counter-propagating waves - a standing wave, if you want. So roughly speaking for every photon going one way, there's another going the opposite way. As for the "classical" part, that just means there are an enormous number of photons occupying each mode.

You can even represent static background EM fields using quantum field theory Feynman diagrams - they act as a source for photons. I couldn't find a good image of that online in a quick search, but I can dig one up if you're curious.

It's not particularly useful most of the time - certainly not for any kind of plasma effect I can think of - but it is possible.
 
Last edited:
QM suggests this. Most electrical theory classes are based on a 19th century understanding of EM fields.

Well, no. Most electrodynamics classes include special relativity, which is decidedly 20th century. And quantum mechanics does not suggest that electric or magnetic fields are made of photons. You are confusing the field itself with excitations of the field. I had hoped to suggest to you your mistake when I asked how many photons it took to make a 1 Tesla field, but you simply ignored the question.
 
Actually, it is possible to think of static classical field configurations as composed of photons. The "static" part isn't a problem - a photon is a single quantum of a mode of the field (or more precisely a wave-packet). But you can take the fourier transform of a static field and see that it's a superposition of counter-propagating waves - a standing wave, if you want.

You can do that, but that doesn't exactly give you photons. You can do a Fourier decomposition even classically. But you need more than picking out a single frequency to get a photon, you need quantization too, which taking the Fourier transform doesn't do for you. One can indeed think about it as if it's a bunch of photons added together, but that's not necessary even in quantum mechanics.
 
You can do that, but that doesn't exactly give you photons. You can do a Fourier decomposition even classically. But you need more than picking out a single frequency to get a photon, you need quantization too, which taking the Fourier transform doesn't do for you.

True, but the extra step is simple (unless I'm missing something). I think you can just interpret the amplitude of each mode as a number of photons in that mode - which would answer the question you asked Michael.

One can indeed think about it as if it's a bunch of photons added together, but that's not necessary even in quantum mechanics.

It's certainly not necessary in most cases. But fundamentally in QFT all states are nothing more than some collection of particle creation operators acting on the vacuum. Therefore it must be possible to represent any physical field configuration that way. A classical field configuration will involve some mind-boggling number of creation operators, but I think that number will be finite.
 
True, but the extra step is simple (unless I'm missing something). I think you can just interpret the amplitude of each mode as a number of photons in that mode - which would answer the question you asked Michael.

But what does that mean when the number of modes is infinite, and the amplitudes are varying continuously? One might interpret amplitudes as some sort of probability of having a photon in a mode, but in fact even there, you'd need to do an integral over a range of modes in order to get a nonzero value. But I don't think you can get a single number answer for the total number of photons unless you decide on some sort of average frequency for the photons you're considering.
 
I can hardly wait.....

http://www.ibex.swri.edu/archive/2009.08.shtml

The first IBEX sky maps are complete and the science team is writing up the results right now. The observations are really extraordinary and they show some very surprising features that aren't in any of the current theories or models, so IBEX is a real mission of discovery, and it is certainly going to require a new paradigm to account for what we are seeing! The results are so good that I have been able to negotiate with Science Magazine - the largest circulation periodical in science - for six coordinated papers, including one with some outside observations. Anyway, we plan on submitting all the papers this month and the IBEX Special Issue should be published, in concert with a big NASA press conference, in October. Until then it's all embargoed, but I promise it will be worth the wait!

I get the feeling that this data is going to blow the lid off standard theory in favor of an electrical discharge solar model that experiences discharges between the solar surface and the heliosphere. I don't think these "discoveries" are going to be "minor" in any way. :)
 
Last edited:
I get the feeling that this data is going to blow the lid of standard theory in favor of an electrical discharge solar model that experiences discharges between the solar surface and the heliosphere. I don't think these "discoveries" are going to be "minor" in any way. :)

This might be a big deal within the solar physics community. But I'd be quite willing to bet that they will in no way change the conclusion that the sun is a giant ball of plasma powered by hydrogen fusion, with no solid shell anywhere to be seen.

Hell, I'm pretty damned sure that's what Alfven thought too.

But I am curious about how you'll handle it when the results don't live up to your hopes and dreams.
 
This might be a big deal within the solar physics community. But I'd be quite willing to bet that they will in no way change the conclusion that the sun is a giant ball of plasma powered by hydrogen fusion, with no solid shell anywhere to be seen.

You're probably right about that, but even an "electric sun" theory would be a step in the right direction.

Hell, I'm pretty damned sure that's what Alfven thought too.

I'm pretty sure that is true for Bruce as well. Both of them applied their "discharge" theories to a standard solar model.

But I am curious about how you'll handle it when the results don't live up to your hopes and dreams.

Which results are those? :)

IMO the biggest obstacle over the past few years has been just getting you to recognize the electrical aspects of this theory. I'm sure progress will continue, once you folks wake up to the fact the sun is electrically active and discharging itself toward the heliosphere. The rest will fall into place based on the location of the bases of these loops, the heliosiesmology findings, and the satellite images. First however you folks will have to wake up to the electrical activities that produce these solar events. Baby steps.
 
But I am curious about how you'll handle it when the results don't live up to your hopes and dreams.


He'll ignore it completely. When the STEREO mission was launched in late 2006, Michael was certain it was going to finally prove to the world that the Sun has a solid surface. And if not, Michael was going to admit that his fruitcake fantasy had been falsified. You know, this is it, make or break, if this doesn't prove it right, it will prove it wrong.

Well it's 2009, and the STEREO mission has been sending back data for most of three years. We have yet to see a NASA press release that announces a solid surface on the Sun, as well as Michael's consequent salvation from the depths of crackpottery. We have yet to see the STEREO research team dancing with glee about their newly discovered solid surface on the Sun. We have yet to see papers being submitted to physics journals describing the newfound principles of physics that allow for a previously believed impossible solid surface to exist on the Sun. But more telling than anything, we have yet to see Michael acknowledge that the STEREO mission hasn't proved his crackpot claim, and his subsequent announcement that he's ending the futile quest to find truth in his delusion.
 
It's not particularly useful most of the time - certainly not for any kind of plasma effect I can think of - but it is possible.

IMO it is particularly useful to demonstrate that "magnetic reconnection" and "particle reconnection" are exactly the same physical process. The term "circuit reconnection' is a better term IMO because it immediately conveys the importance of the entire circuit energy of both circuits.

In standard electronics, the motive force that the EM field conveys to charged particles in other circuits is called "induction". An example of this process is an ordinary coil. The transmission of energy to the electrons in the other circuit of the coil due to the magnetic field changes is not called "magnetic reconnection", it is called "induction".
 
IMO it is particularly useful to demonstrate that "magnetic reconnection" and "particle reconnection" are exactly the same physical process.

In other words, your objection is a semantic one, and therefore of little interest to anyone.
 
In other words, your objection is a semantic one, and therefore of little interest to anyone.

No, it's more than just a "semantic" issue in the final analysis. Induction is a well understood part of electrical theory. So are circuits. When Alfven described these current sheet events, he described them in terms that were consistent with all other branches of science, including electrical engineering and particle physics.

The term "magnetic reconnection" is inconsistent with with electrical engineering. You'll never hear an electrical engineer talking about "magnetic reconnection" in relationship to a "current flow change" on a "circuit board". Sure, the magnetic field topology on the board may change as the different circuits light up, but those magnetic fields we see around the wires of the circuit board are caused by the flow of current through the wire. The term "magnetic reconnection" is absurd. Magnetic fields form as a complete and full continuum, without beginning and without end. That's something they teach every electrical engineer.

IMO the term "circuit reconnection" is a significantly more appropriate term because it instantly conveys the importance of the circuit energy, and the total circuit energy is going to have the greatest effect on how much energy is released at the point of "reconnection".

Anytime a magnetic field change generates movement of charged particles in solids, we call it "induction".
 
Last edited:
Fields & Photons

Actually, it is possible to think of static classical field configurations as composed of photons.
Ah, this and the subsequent conversation are aspects of the issue I had not thought of before. Most interesting. But certainly very few people, even very few physicists are likely to automatically think of static fields, or even non-static fields (i.e., waves in a magnetic field or Alfven waves) in terms of photons. I think its use by Mozina needlessly confuses the issue.
 
No, it's more than just a "semantic" issue in the final analysis.

No, it isn't. Which is why all you can ever do is object to the term. You cannot point to a single equation that gets used and say, "you made a mistake". You cannot point to any of the quantities that actually get calculated and say, "that value is wrong". You cannot point to any of the experiments that have been performed and say, "you screwed up". You have no real objection other than to the phrase itself.

The term "magnetic reconnection" is inconsistent with with electrical engineering.

Like I said, your objection is purely semantic. And nobody cares. Solar physicists are free to develop their own terminology, there is no reason it needs to match the terminology of electrical engineers. Your disapproval of such terminology is of no consequence.
 
Ah, this and the subsequent conversation are aspects of the issue I had not thought of before. Most interesting. But certainly very few people, even very few physicists are likely to automatically think of static fields, or even non-static fields (i.e., waves in a magnetic field or Alfven waves) in terms of photons. I think its use by Mozina needlessly confuses the issue.

Whereas I would say calling it "magnetic reconnection" is what needlessly confuses the issue. Every electrical engineer knows what a 'short circuit' is. Nobody in electrical engineering knows what 'magnetic reconnection" is.
 
How to Interpret the Images?

You did us *ALL* a disservice by not doing your homework like I asked.
Well, actually I did my homework exactly as you asked, as you well know. However, I did do it quite carelessly, a bad habit when I try to do things too quickly. Sorry about that.

However, it is now done. I have seen the flares in white light & EUV, and I have seen all the frames. I have seen all of the images you wanted me to see, and all the frames, so far as I know. I disagree with your interpretation of the images. Indeed, I will say that your reliance on the images is your primary weakness. It is as I said before, you have to rely on a subjective interpretation of the images to make your point. There is nothing in the images, not in any frame, which is sufficient to differentiate between your hypothesis and that of mainstream physics, and that is the real, single, biggest point to make. It is not enough simply to promote an alternative hypothesis. You must provide a means to simultaneously verify your hypothesis and falsify the competition (in this case, the mainstream physics). I see nothing that does this.

And let me say that I am highly intrigued by this:
It doesn't. The WL images show the photosphere.
You have argued strenuously all along that the EUV images show the photosphere, and it has been one of the major points of contention all along. But now you simply brush all of the aside and admit that the EUV images do not show the photosphere? If you are going to say that, is there anything left to talk about? I though that was the point you were trying to make, it is certainly the point you told me you were trying to make.

In any case, that the magnetic loop crosses through the photosphere has never been a point of contention; it is well known that they do, and that the loops extend well below the photosphere. The real point of contention is "where does the flare start?" Is it below, in, or above the photosphere? Given only the videos & frames you have specified, all 3 alternatives are clearly possible. We need more information, aside from the images, to make a conclusion.
 
No, it isn't. Which is why all you can ever do is object to the term. You cannot point to a single equation that gets used and say, "you made a mistake". You cannot point to any of the quantities that actually get calculated and say, "that value is wrong". You cannot point to any of the experiments that have been performed and say, "you screwed up". You have no real objection other than to the phrase itself.

Well, it's not my fault that the math is fine, and it's not my fault that you have "current flow" inside those 'magnetic lines". After reading Birn's presentation of this process, the only "beef" I had was with the term he used to describe this process.

Like I said, your objection is purely semantic.

Not actually. Magnetic lines do not actually "reconnect". Only particles and circuits "reconnect". The EM field can transfer kinetic energy to charged particles, but that already has a proper name - induction.

And nobody cares.

Most EU enthusiasts would beg to differ.

Solar physicists are free to develop their own terminology, there is no reason it needs to match the terminology of electrical engineers. Your disapproval of such terminology is of no consequence.

Why would you *INTENTIONALLY* deviate from standard terminology when it is absolutely unnecessary? A simple change of terms to be consistent with other branches of science would eliminate the need to "Translate" your personal terminology to one that is actually consistent with other branches of science. Whereas you all now seem to accept they are interchangeable terms, that is almost never the case at the outset of these conversations and I end up having to spend days, week and even months convincing people that the translation to electrical engineering term is valid. There is usually a giant fight at first, followed by a long discussion on induction and particle aspects of MHD theory required and most folks don't even begin to understand MHD theory. It would be *SO* much more logical to simply call it "circuit reconfiguration" or "circuit reconnection" or something that every electrical engineer is immediately able to relate to and comprehend without the need for "translation".
 
Nah. That's your game not mine. Flying stuff? What flying stuff?


I addressed your stupid mistake about believing there is flying stuff in a running difference graph or animation produced from a series of these graphs. Others have addressed it, too, and their assessment agrees perfectly with mine. I explained your stupid mistake several years ago the same way I explained your stupid mistake earlier in this thread. But then you've proven that lying and ignorance come easy for you, so it's no surprise each time you lie about no explanations being given and ignore them when they are. Pitiful, but no surprise.

And again you'll notice I raised an actual issue of concern, yet instead of dealing with the issue you pussied out and threw another tantrum. Are you sure you're not a little girl pretending to be a grown up? It's hard to believe a functioning adult could be stupid enough to believe she could offer any proof for that whacked-out conjecture by doing no more than hollering and whining about it.

It might do you some good to expend some of that energy you use to piss and moan, and actually put it towards producing something quantitative, intelligent, and rational to support your insane fantasy, you know, if you actually believe it and you're not just a troll. So far it seems nearly (if not fully) 100% of your substantiation amounts to, "It looks like a bunny," and, "It's true because I say it's true." (If anyone else has noted any of Michael's contributions that might actually be considered compelling, objective, and legitimately scientific support for the possibility that the Sun has a solid surface, please remind me, because I don't recall seeing any.) Yes, pitiful.

(Again I predict not a single finger will be lifted to offer objective evidence supporting the half baked surface of the Sun crap. Ignorance, lying, and/or bitching will follow. Woohoo! I've been right every time so far with these predictions. Can I apply for the JREF million, or is this too easy? :D)
 
Well, it's not my fault that the math is fine, and it's not my fault that you have "current flow" inside those 'magnetic lines". After reading Birn's presentation of this process, the only "beef" I had was with the term he used to describe this process.

In other words, your objection is purely semantic. Which is what I said. You are now explicitly acknowledging what you just denied. Quite impressive.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom