Holes in Big Bang

Sol...

Unless you have some other references I'm going to stick to my statement that to my knowledge all inflation 'predictions' are actually "postdicted' from earlier observations. That certainly seems to be the case with both of the early papers you cited.

What? Why?

It's true that it was known in the early 1980s that a roughly flat primordial spectrum over some range of scales would probably be consistent with observations, but that's it (and that's why those guys were excited about their results). But inflation predicted something much more specific, only the first rough version of which is in those 1982 papers. By 1996 paper there were many details (like the acoustic peaks), none of which were observed until years later.

As it relates to the DE/EM issue, I'm still doing some background reading and I have not reached a final conclusions just yet.

OK.
 
What? Why?

Did you see my earlier post on the two earliest papers you cited? You haven't responded to it yet, unless of course I missed it.

It's true that it was known in the early 1980s that a roughly flat primordial spectrum over some range of scales would probably be consistent with observations, but that's it (and that's why those guys were excited about their results).

But the authors are actively "curve fitting' inflation theory to known observations in those earlier papers.

By 1996 paper there were many details (like the acoustic peaks), none of which were observed until years later.

I guess I'll have to go through the later paper then with a bit more focus on what (if anything) is actually a 'prediction' vs. what is simply a curve fit to a known observation. It is however quite clear that some of these features were already "observed" by the time the first papers were written and in those earlier papers, inflation theory is being revised to take these previous observations into account. That is postdiction, not prediction.

I suppose it's 'possible' to "predict" some some features based purely on mathematical models, but typically, most "predictions' are based upon something that is learned from active experimentation, not simply a mathematical model. GR theory shows that there are exceptions to that rule however.
 
What? Why?

It's true that it was known in the early 1980s that a roughly flat primordial spectrum over some range of scales would probably be consistent with observations, but that's it (and that's why those guys were excited about their results). But inflation predicted something much more specific, only the first rough version of which is in those 1982 papers. By 1996 paper there were many details (like the acoustic peaks), none of which were observed until years later.

This appears to be a gray area. Initially, inflation was needed to account for observed characteristics of the universe like homogeneity, etc. Later, it was realized that a totally homogeneous era could not lead to the structure currently observed --- some inhomogeneity was needed. As I recall, quantum fluctuations were then presented as the likely cause of the primordial lumpiness leading to galaxy formation, etc. Then, a search for inhomogeneities in the CMB ensued -- and were found.
Would there not have to be quantum fluctuations anyway, for galaxies to form, with or without inflation? Are there not other possible explanations for the CMB and its irregularities? It seems that MM's view that aspects of inflation theory are "postdicted" might have some merit.
 
Did you see my earlier post on the two earliest papers you cited? You haven't responded to it yet, unless of course I missed it.

Oops, missed it. What they're saying is that they know that a flat spectrum with amplitude around 10^-5 would roughly fit data. But it's very rough, because at the time no precise data was available - and didn't become available until 20 years later.

Typical inflation models, as I've told you, have 1 or 2 parameters, 1 or 2 numbers that must be put in. As with any scientific theory, you use 1 or 2 numbers from data to fix those (in this case, 10^-5 as the overall amplitude). Everything else you get out is a prediction (or postdiction, as the case may be).

Here, the output is an entire spectrum. It's observable out to angular momentum moment of a few thousand, which means the output is a few million numbers which form a very specific and characteristic pattern. If any one of those had turned out to be significantly off, inflation would have been fasified. But none of them were - there are a few mild and potentially interesting anomalies, but only a few (again, out of millions).
 
This appears to be a gray area. Initially, inflation was needed to account for observed characteristics of the universe like homogeneity, etc. Later, it was realized that a totally homogeneous era could not lead to the structure currently observed --- some inhomogeneity was needed.

Actually that was realized immediately, not later.

As I recall, quantum fluctuations were then presented as the likely cause of the primordial lumpiness leading to galaxy formation, etc. Then, a search for inhomogeneities in the CMB ensued -- and were found.

Right - but it wasn't just that inhomogeneities were found. A few million data points were collected by satellite, and they matched the predictions extremely well. This was one of the most precise and impressive achievements in the entire field of astrophysics, by the way. It catapulted cosmology into the status of "precision science".

Would there not have to be quantum fluctuations anyway, for galaxies to form, with or without inflation?

No. Quantum fluctuations can only seed structure if there is an event horizon, and that happens only when the expansion is accelerating (which means some variety of inflation).

Are there not other possible explanations for the CMB and its irregularities? It seems that MM's view that aspects of inflation theory are "postdicted" might have some merit.

I don't see any connection between those two sentences.

Sure, there are other possible explanations. None of them work very well at all, though - they're all much more complicated. As for postdicted, I'm befuddled how you can regard a precise prediction for the shape of the spectrum made at least 7 years before the data was available as a "post"-diction.
 
I suppose it's 'possible' to "predict" some some features based purely on mathematical models, but typically, most "predictions' are based upon something that is learned from active experimentation, not simply a mathematical model.

That's not true at all. In all types of physics one uses some experimental input plus certain basic principles and experience to build a mathematical model, and then makes predictions with the model that are then tested. But of course it's the model that makes the predictions. You can't make predictions with experimental results, except perhaps about an absolutely identical experiment - and that wouldn't be interesting. The only way to make predictions is with a model, and in physics the models are mathematical.

The top quark is an excellent example, by the way.
 
Actually that was realized immediately, not later.

OK

Right - but it wasn't just that inhomogeneities were found. A few million data points were collected by satellite, and they matched the predictions extremely well. This was one of the most precise and impressive achievements in the entire field of astrophysics, by the way. It catapulted cosmology into the status of "precision science".

Thanks for that clarification and additional insight.

No. Quantum fluctuations can only seed structure if there is an event horizon, and that happens only when the expansion is accelerating (which means some variety of inflation).

Unfortunately, I don't understand QM well enough to follow that but I must accept that as a valid point, unless someone else can refute it.

I don't see any connection between those two sentences.

Sorry, I guess there wasn't any connection. See my comments below.

Sure, there are other possible explanations. None of them work very well at all, though - they're all much more complicated. As for postdicted, I'm befuddled how you can regard a precise prediction for the shape of the spectrum made at least 7 years before the data was available as a "post"-diction.

Let me try this rather fuzzy explanation. Over the years, as I followed the development of inflation theory in periodicals like Scientific American, there appeared to be some ad hoc tag-ons to inflation theory in the wake of new astronomical observations. My feeling is based on the historical context as things unfolded at the time, but I cannot recall enough details to demonstrate my point. I simply have no way of now reconstructing the sequence of observations and theoretical modifications of inflation to document that there were times when new developments appeared to be "postdicted."
In any case, I do continue to accept inflation theory, but not with any sense of certainty.
 
Michael Mozina said:
I suppose it's 'possible' to "predict" some some features based purely on mathematical models, but typically, most "predictions' are based upon something that is learned from active experimentation, not simply a mathematical model.
That's not true at all. In all types of physics one uses some experimental input plus certain basic principles and experience to build a mathematical model, and then makes predictions with the model that are then tested. But of course it's the model that makes the predictions. You can't make predictions with experimental results, except perhaps about an absolutely identical experiment - and that wouldn't be interesting. The only way to make predictions is with a model, and in physics the models are mathematical.

The top quark is an excellent example, by the way.
Here's a quite different kind of example ...

... the Hulse-Taylor pulsar, and gravitational wave radiation.

With GR, and a model (a pair of 'point' masses in orbit around their mutual centre of mass) one can make certain predictions (rate of decay of the orbits); plug some numbers in (masses, distance between them) and an eminently testable hypothesis falls out (the observed pulses from a binary pulsar will behave {like this} when plotted against time).

No experimental results to be found anywhere ... (oh, and Hulse and Taylor got an all-expenses paid trip to Stockholm).
 
Let me try this rather fuzzy explanation. Over the years, as I followed the development of inflation theory in periodicals like Scientific American, there appeared to be some ad hoc tag-ons to inflation theory in the wake of new astronomical observations.

Well, that's not an entirely unfair criticism. As I mentioned earlier, there are many different inflation models, and there's quite a lot of room to adjust the pre/post-dictions - particularly if you're willing to add ingredients and make the model more complicated. But there are certain features and predictions they all share, and those were well-understood long before the relevant observations were made.

It's very much like quantum field theory. There are infinitely many QFTs, and only one that describes the standard model of particle physics. They all have certain features in common, and physicists were fairly certain particle physics was described by a QFT long before they knew which one it was.

In fact it took quite a long time and lots of experimental input before the correct theory (SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) with the right matter content) could be identified. It has 25 or so parameters which must be fixed with data. Once that's done, however, it makes lots and lots of predictions, a huge number of which have since been verified (and a few falsified, and the model adjusted).

Similarly there are lots of inflation theories, particularly if you allow them to be as complex as the standard model. We don't currently have the data to nail down which one is correct, but we do have enough to be quite confident that at least one is.

And remember - nature couldn't care less whether we first discover the correct theory and then predict the data, or first find the data and then discover the correct theory. A theory is either correct or not; pre- versus post-diction is a human distinction.
 
I think everyone needs to chill. There no point getting personal. This thread has been full of emotive undertones (more-so at the beginning). Fact is that there are a lot of alternative theories out there, and its not a matter of one being the *truth* and all the others crackpot theories made up by *creationists* or [insert stereotype here]. When you put faith in a theory being truth and get religously attatched to it by thinking its beyond reproach from all other theories, your no longer thinking scientifically, but religously.

Theres some good material in this thread. Lets not forget people, multiple theories can be correct at the same time, no matter how different they are. Finding out which theory matches the evidence and data is what should be being done, something called the scientific method. Of which there have been glimmers of in this thread.

I'm not gonna get fully involved either way. Infact I dont spend much time online at all at the moment, real life issues are pressing.

Argue on, and keep it in good faith peeps.

Isn't science wonderful? :)
 
Oops, missed it. What they're saying is that they know that a flat spectrum with amplitude around 10^-5 would roughly fit data. But it's very rough, because at the time no precise data was available - and didn't become available until 20 years later.

Typical inflation models, as I've told you, have 1 or 2 parameters, 1 or 2 numbers that must be put in. As with any scientific theory, you use 1 or 2 numbers from data to fix those (in this case, 10^-5 as the overall amplitude). Everything else you get out is a prediction (or postdiction, as the case may be).

Here, the output is an entire spectrum. It's observable out to angular momentum moment of a few thousand, which means the output is a few million numbers which form a very specific and characteristic pattern. If any one of those had turned out to be significantly off, inflation would have been fasified. But none of them were - there are a few mild and potentially interesting anomalies, but only a few (again, out of millions).

My problem with that logic is this: If I already have a number of key "rough" observations from several different wavelengths in the spectrum and I "assume/figure out" that there is a discernible pattern in that data, I can then create a formula to fit that basic pattern.

Unless there really isn't a pattern, my formula, rough as it may be, will still be likely to apply quite well to the later (more refined) measurements. The pattern itself is still "postdicted" from the rough (earlier) observations and the mathematical pattern was still worked out from observation, not from actual "prediction". Unless the postdicted pattern that I come up with is simply wrong, it's going to apply pretty well to later and better measurements. The only thing that is likely to be modified a bit by later, more accurate measurements are the 'variables' but the mathematical pattern was still a postdicted fit.
 
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Here's a quite different kind of example ...

Oh my goodness. I already conceded in my original post (the part you can't see because you're ignoring me and he cut out that part of my post) that there were exceptions to that rule. You're preaching to the choir.
 
And remember - nature couldn't care less whether we first discover the correct theory and then predict the data, or first find the data and then discover the correct theory. A theory is either correct or not; pre- versus post-diction is a human distinction.

Thanks. Perhaps that's the ultimate key. We have a theory; we have matching observations. If no other theory fits the observations (and until one does) we go with what we have.
 
And remember - nature couldn't care less whether we first discover the correct theory and then predict the data, or first find the data and then discover the correct theory. A theory is either correct or not; pre- versus post-diction is a human distinction.

I'd be fine with that concept if we could actually demonstrate that inflation is real in a standard test with control mechanisms. As it stands, we're postdicting a fit with an "imaginary" entity that presumably no longer exists and can *never* be verified or falsified in any conventional test with a control mechanism. As long as we're willing to keep modifying inflation theory to fit any and all new observations, it becomes a form of 'dogma' that defies any kind of falsification processes. At that point there is no longer any empirical distinction between science and religion.
 
My problem with that logic is this: If I already have a number of key "rough" observations from several different wavelengths in the spectrum and I "assume/figure out" that there is a discernible pattern in that data, I can then create a formula to fit that basic pattern.

In some cases, perhaps. But that couldn't have happened here. Look at the spectrum.

All that was known of that in 1996 (I think, perhaps someone else can cofirm) is the extreme left-hand part of it, stopping well before the first peak at perhaps l~50 (that's the numbers on the horizontal axis) and with large error bars. You tell me - given that much, could you fill in the rest, including relative heights of peaks, their spacing, etc.? Obviously not - and if you look at those papers, you'll see that that isn't at all what happened. Instead, the spectrum was predicted from the model.

I As long as we're willing to keep modifying inflation theory to fit any and all new observations, it becomes a form of 'dogma' that defies any kind of falsification processes. At that point there is no longer any empirical distinction between science and religion.

That's utter nonsense: the progress of science is nothing other than modifying theories to fit new observations. But I'm tired of going around in circles on that, so I'm not going to respond further.
 
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I am the third moderator to step in here. I have sent 28 posts to AAH, all of them off topic. Anyone derailing from here on in risks infraction. Behave.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LibraryLady
 
sol invictus said:
What? Why?

It's true that it was known in the early 1980s that a roughly flat primordial spectrum over some range of scales would probably be consistent with observations, but that's it (and that's why those guys were excited about their results). But inflation predicted something much more specific, only the first rough version of which is in those 1982 papers. By 1996 paper there were many details (like the acoustic peaks), none of which were observed until years later.
This appears to be a gray area. Initially, inflation was needed to account for observed characteristics of the universe like homogeneity, etc. Later, it was realized that a totally homogeneous era could not lead to the structure currently observed --- some inhomogeneity was needed. As I recall, quantum fluctuations were then presented as the likely cause of the primordial lumpiness leading to galaxy formation, etc. Then, a search for inhomogeneities in the CMB ensued -- and were found.
Would there not have to be quantum fluctuations anyway, for galaxies to form, with or without inflation? Are there not other possible explanations for the CMB and its irregularities? It seems that MM's view that aspects of inflation theory are "postdicted" might have some merit.
I'd like to introduce an example from astronomy that shines a bright light on the "predicted/post-dicted" distinction; I think the only reasonable conclusion one can draw from this example is that such a distinction is pretty close to meaningless, and that if you do wish to try to keep it, you would need to pay extraordinary attention to detail.

Consider "dark matter".

Zwicky introduced the term, in the 1930s, to account for an apparent inconsistency in an analysis he did of the data he obtained on a rich galaxy cluster (Coma). At the time, Zwicky had no reason to introduce 'non-baryonic' as a modifier, nor 'cold'; indeed, it is unlikely either *could* have been applied at the time!

Not long afterwards (or possibly before), Jan Oort (yes, of Oort cloud fame) published evidence for the existence of dark matter in the local region of the Milky Way (i.e. within a few hundred pc of sol); several decades later re-analysis together with far more extensive data showed his conclusion was in error.

In the late 1960s, Rubin (and colleagues) published studies of the rotation curves of some nearby normal spiral galaxies, concluding that these galaxies are embedded in a halo of dark matter.

It took another ~25+ years for compact massive halo objects (MACHOs) to be ruled out as the primary component of this inferred massive halo; sometime around then dark matter began to be seriously considered as being non-baryonic (and cold).

Sometime after the first decent x-ray band data on rich galactic clusters became available, the existence of an essentially thermal, hot, diffuse IGM was confirmed; the estimated mass of such was, and still is, considerably greater than the total estimated mass of all the galaxies in such clusters, dark matter halos included. However, the estimated total mass of such clusters exceeded (and still exceeds) that of the IGM by a factor of ~5.

Along the way, and completely independently, cosmological research was converging on an estimate of the average mass density of the universe being ~one-fifth of the critical density; of this mass, several lines of independent evidence strongly suggested that only ~one-fifth was baryonic.

(the actual history is much, much, much more intricate than I have outlined above).

So, to cut to the chase: non-baryonic cold dark matter ("CDM"), as a theory, is extraordinarily successful ... it accounts for millions of independent observations, across the full range of the electromagnetic spectrum, and of an extraordinary range of objects (from dwarf galaxies to normal galaxies to giant galaxies to galaxy groups to galaxy clusters to the universe as a whole). In the multi-decade history of the study of CDM (to be anachronistic for several decades), there have been several 'crises', many curiosities and anomalies, a great deal of refinement and revision, hundreds and hundreds of predictions and post-dictions, etc, etc, etc, etc.

And I haven't even introduced an independent line of research: indications from particle physics of the existence of an entire class of particles hithertofore unseen, the properties of which could well match those of CDM (should CDM be composed of particles).

I have read MM's posts on this topic (there are dozens, if not hundreds), and like si I find that his characterisation of astronomy is grotesque, and his views on 'controlled experiments' etc riddled with misconceptions, internal inconsistencies, etc.
 
DeiRenDopa:

Thank you for the above historical summary of dark matter. I understand that you necessarily omitted countless details; nevertheless, it was very helpful.
The sad reality is that it is difficult for a layman to access all the context you just provided.
As I mentioned above, I have been following developments in cosmology for many years now (about 50), but obviously (and sadly) the significance of many details and interlinking of concepts have escaped my grasp.
 
PS, for a relatively brief, non-technical overview, I recommend "In Search of Dark Matter", by Ken Freeman and Geoff McNamara (2006, Springer/Praxis; ISBN: 0-387-27616-5). Freeman, who must be close to retirement by now, is a professional astronomer who has been working on DM for just about his whole (professional) life, developed at least one of the observational tools used to test various DM hypotheses (i.e. PNe in the outskirts of galaxies), and has authored several hundred papers (not all as sole, or even lead, author of course!). There are other, popular-level, books on the topic, but this is the best that I've read.
 
DeiRenDopa:

Thank you for the above historical summary of dark matter. I understand that you necessarily omitted countless details; nevertheless, it was very helpful.
The sad reality is that it is difficult for a layman to access all the context you just provided.
As I mentioned above, I have been following developments in cosmology for many years now (about 50), but obviously (and sadly) the significance of many details and interlinking of concepts have escaped my grasp.

FYI, there are new signs that the 'mass estimation techniques' of standard theories will require some revision because they fail to account for some of even the most visible material that is located inside various galaxies:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090819145846.htm

The effects are particularly important in parts of the universe where stars are spread out over a larger volume -- the rural Africa of the cosmos. There could be about four times as many stars in these regions than previously estimated.

"Especially in these galaxies that seem small and piddling, there can be a lot more mass in lower mass stars than we had previously expected from what we could see from the brightest, youngest stars," Meurer said. "But we can now reduce these errors using satellites like the Galaxy Evolution Explorer."

Emphasis mine.
 
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Interesting article on how one technique for measuring the mass of galaxies is being refined.

Indeed. One wonders about the value of current estimation techniques if they underestimate the number of highly visible stars by a factor of four. The notion of "dark" seems to apply not only to non baryonic matter, but anything under a specific physical size, including even smaller sized suns. It makes the whole notion of SUSY theory that much less plausible, and certainly that much less necessary IMO. They don't even seem to have a good handle yet on the amount of highly visible baryonic material in a galaxy, so why would I believe there is any need for non baryonic forms of matter to explain 'missing mass'?
 
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Indeed. One wonders about the value of current estimation techniques if they underestimate the number of highly visible stars by a factor of four. The notion of "dark" seems to apply not only to non baryonic matter, but anything under a specific physical size, including even smaller sized suns. It makes the whole notion of SUSY theory that much less plausible, and certainly that much less necessary IMO. They don't even seem to have a good handle yet on the amount of highly visible baryonic material in a galaxy, so why would I believe there is any need for non baryonic forms of matter to explain 'missing mass'?
You misread the article.
The point is that these stars are not "highly visible" and so their numbers were estimated in the past. Current observation techniques have revealed that in some galaxies the smaller mass stars may be miscounted by a factor of 4.

This belief, based on years of research, has been tipped on its side with new data from NASA's Galaxy Evolution Explorer. The ultraviolet telescope has found proof that small stars come in even bigger bundles than previously believed; for example, in some places in the cosmos, about 2,000 low-mass stars may form for each massive star. The little stars were there all along but masked by massive, brighter stars.
....
"Especially in these galaxies that seem small and piddling, there can be a lot more mass in lower mass stars than we had previously expected from what we could see from the brightest, youngest stars," Meurer said. "But we can now reduce these errors using satellites like the Galaxy Evolution Explorer."
(Emphasis mine)

They do have a "good handle" on the mass of the baryonic material in a galaxy. This new observation will allow more accurate estimates of galaxy masses.
A real astronomer could tell us the real error limit in galaxy mass calculations (50%?)

ETA: The actual journal article looks like "Evidence for a Nonuniform Initial Mass Function in the Local Universe".
 
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You misread the article.
The point is that these stars are not "highly visible" and so their numbers were estimated in the past. Current observation techniques have revealed that in some galaxies the smaller mass stars may be miscounted by a factor of 4.

What you're essentially saying is that "previous" observations (at the visible spectrum) were incapable of picking out even highly visible forms of baryonic material, whereas more modern instruments are in fact capable of noticing this omission. What you seem to be ignoring is the fact that current techniques don't account for these modern observations, at least not yet.

(Emphasis mine)

They do have a "good handle" on the mass of the baryonic material in a galaxy. This new observation will allow more accurate estimates of galaxy masses.
A real astronomer could tell us the real error limit in galaxy mass calculations (50%?)

That sounds rather like an underestimate rather than a real number IMO, particularly if they underestimate the number of stars by a factor of four. The point here is that our current technologies haven't even been applied to our mass estimation techniques yet, so why should anyone have 'great faith' that any material is located in SUSY particles if we can't even accurately measure (or haven't accurately factored in) the amount of highly visible stars in a galaxy?
 
What you're essentially saying is that "previous" observations (at the visible spectrum) were incapable of picking out even highly visible forms of baryonic material, whereas more modern instruments are in fact capable of noticing this omission. What you seem to be ignoring is the fact that current techniques don't account for these modern observations, at least not yet.
That is right (but I would say throughout the spectrum rather than just visible). That is what the last paragraph of the article states.

That sounds rather like an underestimate rather than a real number IMO, particularly if they underestimate the number of stars by a factor of four. The point here is that our current technologies haven't even been applied to our mass estimation techniques yet, so why should anyone have 'great faith' that any material is located in SUSY particles if we can't even accurately measure (or haven't accurately factored in) the amount of highly visible stars in a galaxy?
It also sounds like a underestimate to me.

As as already been stated to you on many occassions:

We can be confident that dark matter is non baryonic matter beacase
  1. The mass estimates are not out by the factors that are needed to account for dark matter.
  2. Baryonic dark matter has been looked for and not found (MACHOs).
  3. Dark matter acts as if it weakly interacts electromagnetcally (i.e. is non baryonic):
    NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation)
ETA:
Make this the three observations aready cited to you in another thread: Bullet Cluster and MACS J0025.4-1222 (and even Abell 520)
 
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That is right (but I would say throughout the spectrum rather than just visible). That is what the last paragraph of the article states.

That really tends to blur the term "dark" doesn't it? I mean it may be "dark" in the visible spectrum relative to our current technologies, but it's not "dark" on every spectrum.

We can be confident that dark matter is non baryonic matter beacase
  1. The mass estimates are not out by the factors that are needed to account for dark matter.


  1. How do you know that? They evidently have underestimated the number of stars in a galaxy by at least a factor of four. My "guess" is that is a relatively 'conservative" number as well.

    Baryonic dark matter has been looked for and not found

    They just found a bunch of baryonic matter! I don't think you like the implications of this article/paper, but it's pretty clear. We haven't accurately estimated the amount of even the number of stars in a galaxy, so the whole notion that non baryonic forms of matter are required to explain "missing mass" is highly suspect. We could and evidently are simply grossly underestimating the amount of normal material in a galaxy. Period.
 
How do you know that? They evidently have underestimated the number of stars in a galaxy by at least a factor of four. My "guess" is that is a relatively 'conservative" number as well.
They have just found a bunch os baryonic matter - just not enough. They need factors of 100's of unmeasured stars.

The stars in question are not "dark" matter. They are normal visible matter that is just hard to see in the visible spectum because of the glare from brighter stars and so you have to look in the non-visible spectrum:
Evidence for a Nonuniform Initial Mass Function in the Local Universe
Many of the results in modern astrophysics rest on the notion that the initial mass function (IMF) is universal. Our observations of a sample of H I selected galaxies in the light of Hα and the far-ultraviolet (FUV) challenge this result. The extinction-corrected flux ratio F Hα/f FUV from these two tracers of star formation shows strong correlations with the surface brightness in Hα and the R band: low surface brightness (LSB) galaxies have lower F Hα/f FUV ratios compared to high surface brightness galaxies as well as compared to expectations from equilibrium models of constant star formation rate (SFR) using commonly favored IMF parameters. Weaker but significant correlations of F Hα/f FUV with luminosity, rotational velocity, and dynamical mass as well as a systematic trend with morphology, are found. The correlated variations of F Hα/f FUV with other global parameters are thus part of the larger family of galaxy scaling relations. The F Hα/f FUV correlations cannot be due to residual extinction correction errors, while systematic variations in the star formation history (SFH) cannot explain the trends with both Hα and R surface brightness nor with other global properties. The possibility that LSB galaxies have a higher escape fraction of ionizing photons seems inconsistent with their high gas fraction, and observations of color-magnitude diagrams (CMDs) of a few systems which indicate a real deficit of O stars. The most plausible explanation for the correlations is the systematic variations of the upper mass limit
apj299976ieqn1.gif
and/or the slope γ which define the upper end of the IMF. We outline a scenario of pressure driving the correlations by setting the efficiency of the formation of the dense star clusters where the highest mass stars preferentially form. Our results imply that the SFR measured in a galaxy is highly sensitive to the tracer used in the measurement. A nonuniversal IMF would also call into question the interpretation of metal abundance patterns in dwarf galaxies as well as SFHs derived from CMDs.

The impact of this observation on dark matter is minor. The evidence that dark matter is non baryonic matter is strong. The amount of baryonic matter is not increaed enough to account for the amount of dark matter that is observed, e.g. by galactic lensing.
 
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Great tags on this thread! Recent Data shows that if the Big Bag is full of holes stuff (also known as matter) will keep falling out. :D
 
Michael Mozina said:
Indeed. One wonders about the value of current estimation techniques if they underestimate the number of highly visible stars by a factor of four. The notion of "dark" seems to apply not only to non baryonic matter, but anything under a specific physical size, including even smaller sized suns. It makes the whole notion of SUSY theory that much less plausible, and certainly that much less necessary IMO. They don't even seem to have a good handle yet on the amount of highly visible baryonic material in a galaxy, so why would I believe there is any need for non baryonic forms of matter to explain 'missing mass'?
You misread the article.
The point is that these stars are not "highly visible" and so their numbers were estimated in the past. Current observation techniques have revealed that in some galaxies the smaller mass stars may be miscounted by a factor of 4.

This belief, based on years of research, has been tipped on its side with new data from NASA's Galaxy Evolution Explorer. The ultraviolet telescope has found proof that small stars come in even bigger bundles than previously believed; for example, in some places in the cosmos, about 2,000 low-mass stars may form for each massive star. The little stars were there all along but masked by massive, brighter stars.
....
"Especially in these galaxies that seem small and piddling, there can be a lot more mass in lower mass stars than we had previously expected from what we could see from the brightest, youngest stars," Meurer said. "But we can now reduce these errors using satellites like the Galaxy Evolution Explorer."
(Emphasis mine)

They do have a "good handle" on the mass of the baryonic material in a galaxy. This new observation will allow more accurate estimates of galaxy masses.
A real astronomer could tell us the real error limit in galaxy mass calculations (50%?)

ETA: The actual journal article looks like "Evidence for a Nonuniform Initial Mass Function in the Local Universe".
Yes, that does seem to be the paper on which the PR is based.

By comparing the paper to the PR, it is easy to see why one should always go to the primary source, especially when trying to draw inferences that are beyond what is stated.

I'll write more about this in later posts, but the techniques used to estimate total mass in galaxies are many and varied, and they give consistent answers (albeit sometimes the uncertainties are big).

Wrt this particular paper, a possible implication concerning the estimated total baryonic mass in a galaxy is: if you use a combo of estimated SFR and IMF to derive a (baryonic) mass estimate, you may have introduced a systematic error; specifically, the IMF for LSBs (low surface brightness) galaxies may be significantly different from the IMF for other galaxies (and even this is too extreme; the paper reports only estimates of the top part of the IMF, specifically O and B stars).
 
Michael Mozina said:
What you're essentially saying is that "previous" observations (at the visible spectrum) were incapable of picking out even highly visible forms of baryonic material, whereas more modern instruments are in fact capable of noticing this omission. What you seem to be ignoring is the fact that current techniques don't account for these modern observations, at least not yet.
That is right (but I would say throughout the spectrum rather than just visible). That is what the last paragraph of the article states.
I don't know how to even begin addressing this ...

... but here goes.

The relationship between a star's mass and its electromagnetic output (both total energy output and SED, spectral energy distribution) is now quite well understood, and observations of individual stars in a particular galaxy (or part thereof) can use this well-established relationship for a variety of purposes.

One such purpose is to estimate the initial mass function of stars; the distribution of stars, by mass (or luminosity) at birth. Such research has been going on for decades, and consistent results have been obtained for stars in star clusters; however, the extent to which the observed (star cluster) IMF is universal is not well-constrained.

Turning to observations of galaxies.

Except for those in the Local Group, and except for instruments such as the HST, individual stars in galaxies cannot be 'resolved' (caveat: novae and supernovae are exceptions). So the techniques used to estimate the stellar content of these galaxies rely upon observations other than the detection of individual stars (there are several such). What this paper says is that proxies for the number of O stars and the number of B stars (one proxy for each) can be used to estimate the extent to which the top part of the IMF varies between galaxies. This is quite difficult to do - the paper spends many pages discussing the various systematic effects the authors identified and tried to control for, for example - but they make a good case that there is a variation. They also point out that their finding is consistent with what several others have found, using completely different techniques.

Perhaps the most exciting implication of the finding is the possibility of getting a better handle on the extent to which star formation is dependent on environment!

That sounds rather like an underestimate rather than a real number IMO, particularly if they underestimate the number of stars by a factor of four. The point here is that our current technologies haven't even been applied to our mass estimation techniques yet, so why should anyone have 'great faith' that any material is located in SUSY particles if we can't even accurately measure (or haven't accurately factored in) the amount of highly visible stars in a galaxy?

It also sounds like a underestimate to me.

As as already been stated to you on many occassions:

We can be confident that dark matter is non baryonic matter beacase
  1. The mass estimates are not out by the factors that are needed to account for dark matter.
  2. Baryonic dark matter has been looked for and not found (MACHOs).
  3. Dark matter acts as if it weakly interacts electromagnetcally (i.e. is non baryonic):
    NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation)
ETA:
Make this the three observations aready cited to you in another thread: Bullet Cluster and MACS J0025.4-1222 (and even Abell 520)
There's so much confusion here!

First, though, the application of an IMF to estimate a galaxy's mass is relatively restricted ... where the IMF is used is in making estimates of the mass-to-light ration (M/L), expressed in sols; specifically, the observed luminosity is used to derive an estimate of the total stellar content, the mass is estimated using techniques that (typically) have nothing to do with the IMF.

Second, studies of different kinds of galaxies (LSB, BCD, dSp, E, ...) tend to give consistent results, wrt the total mass, M/L, and so on.

Third, most of the mass in the observable universe seems to reside in the IGM of clusters of galaxies, not the galaxies themselves, so a change in the estimated mass of the stars in some kinds of galaxies has essentially no impact on larger scales.

I think I'll stop here; I'm probably only making matters more confusing ...
 
Michael Mozina said:
How do you know that? They evidently have underestimated the number of stars in a galaxy by at least a factor of four. My "guess" is that is a relatively 'conservative" number as well.
They have just found a bunch os baryonic matter - just not enough. They need factors of 100's of unmeasured stars.
We are now so far from what the paper says that I see no point in commenting ... except to say that if anyone is interested, I'd be happy to walk them through the paper, paying particular attention to what it actually says (and not what implications you think you can read into it).

In a nutshell, the paper's direct implications have to do with estimating SFRs (star formation rates) in one class of rather poorly understood galaxies (LSBs) ... and the authors discuss this in Section 6.3; the extent to which variations in the top end of the IMF between galaxies impacts estimates of the baryonic content of those galaxies is not discussed in the paper (and rightly so too).

[...]


The impact of this observation on dark matter is minor. The evidence that dark matter is non baryonic matter is strong. The amount of baryonic matter is not increaed enough to account for the amount of dark matter that is observed, e.g. by galactic lensing.
Indeed.

One of the extraordinary things about CDM is the breadth of its explanatory power.
 
The relationship between a star's mass and its electromagnetic output (both total energy output and SED, spectral energy distribution) is now quite well understood,....

I'm sorry, but when you say this kind of thing after that kind of revelation, it's really hard to take you seriously anymore.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25444

Dr Driver said, "You can't get more energy out than you put in so we knew something was very wrong. Even so, the scale of the dust problem has come as a shock appears that galaxies generate twice as much starlight as previously thought."

The team combined an innovative new model of the dust distribution in galaxies developed by Dr Cristina Popescu of the University of Central Lancashire and Prof Richard Tuffs of the Max Plank Institute for Nuclear Physics, with data from the Millennium Galaxy Catalogue, a state-of-the-art high resolution catalogue of 10,000 galaxies assembled by Driver and his team using the Isaac Newton Telescope on La Palma among others.

Using the new model, the astronomers could calculate precisely the fraction of starlight blocked by the dust. The key test that the new model passed was whether the energy of the absorbed starlight equated to that detected from the glowing dust.

"The equation balanced perfectly", said Dr Cristina Popescu, "and for the first time we have a total understanding of the energy output of the Universe over a monumental wavelength range."

"The results demonstrate very clearly that interstellar dust grains have a devastating effect on our measurements of the energy output from even nearby galaxies" says Prof Richard Tuffs, "with the new calibrated model in hand we can now calculate precisely the fraction of starlight blocked by the dust."

In just the last year and a half, we have discovered that the galaxies are shining twice as brightly as we once thought (way more starlight), the number of small mass stars is four times what we first believed, we're still "missing" most of the mass of a galaxy, and you now want me to believe that we have these things all figured out and everything is 'well understood'. Please. Your statements simply don't jive with reality.

I have no doubt that we *THOUGHT* these relationships were well understood, but clearly they are not as simple as we believed, and a lot of that 'missing mass' isn't found in "dark matter', but in the form of actual stars in the galaxy. How exactly did you expect the stars to shine twice and brightly without increasing the mass of the galaxy?

It seems to me that if we haven't correctly identified even something as visually obvious as a star, or the amount of starlight coming from a galaxy, then there is really no reason to believe that our mass estimation techniques are currently worth the paper they are printed on. A quick glance at the lensing data verifies that we have grossly underestimated the standard mass of a galaxy and these two papers explain at least part of the problems with our mass estimation techniques. They are based on *MANY* different assumptions, some of which are evidently way off.
 
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We are now so far from what the paper says that I see no point in commenting ... except to say that if anyone is interested, I'd be happy to walk them through the paper, paying particular attention to what it actually says (and not what implications you think you can read into it).

Yes please.

In a nutshell, the paper's direct implications have to do with estimating SFRs (star formation rates) in one class of rather poorly understood galaxies (LSBs) ... and the authors discuss this in Section 6.3; the extent to which variations in the top end of the IMF between galaxies impacts estimates of the baryonic content of those galaxies is not discussed in the paper (and rightly so too).

Please expand these two bolded acronyms. Thanks for the illuminating posts.
 
LSB = low surface brightness (galaxies)
IMF = initial mass function.

Do you have a copy of the paper to hand Skwinty? It doesn't have to be what was actually published in ApJ, arXiv:0902.0384v2 will do.

If so, let's start with the Summary (section 7); if not, please get one (and let me know when you have it).
 
Thanks, now that I have the correct paper, I can see my question was rather shortsighted.
No worries.

Why not take some time to read, or at least skim, the paper first? As I said, perhaps a good way to go through it is to go through the Summary, point by point; however, you may get more understanding by asking questions directly (your choice! :) ).
 
Why not take some time to read, or at least skim, the paper first? .

Thanks, I will read the paper and then kick off by asking some questions.
I am at home now, but doing some work as I have a deadline to meet.
I will be ready to start later tonight or tomorrow.
 
PS, for a relatively brief, non-technical overview, I recommend "In Search of Dark Matter", by Ken Freeman and Geoff McNamara (2006, Springer/Praxis; ISBN: 0-387-27616-5). Freeman, who must be close to retirement by now, is a professional astronomer who has been working on DM for just about his whole (professional) life, developed at least one of the observational tools used to test various DM hypotheses (i.e. PNe in the outskirts of galaxies), and has authored several hundred papers (not all as sole, or even lead, author of course!). There are other, popular-level, books on the topic, but this is the best that I've read.

Thanks for that. While I do find that MM's objections to standard cosmology far fetched, he does occasionally make some good points. When I see statements like:

Current interpretations of astronomical observations indicate that the age of the Universe is 13.73 (± 0.12) billion years,[1] and that the diameter of the observable Universe is at least 93 billion light years, or 8.80 × 1026 metres.
FROM: link

followed by the discovery that we have this magnitude of error LINK in our observations, I become quite perplexed. There appears to be quite a bit of hubris in a number like 13.75 +/- .12 years. If we do not have an accurate reading of "small stars" to the degree of a four-fold error, how can we come by such an exact estimate for the age of the universe.
 
Thanks for that. While I do find that MM's objections to standard cosmology far fetched, he does occasionally make some good points. When I see statements like:


FROM: link

followed by the discovery that we have this magnitude of error LINK in our observations, I become quite perplexed. There appears to be quite a bit of hubris in a number like 13.75 +/- .12 years. If we do not have an accurate reading of "small stars" to the degree of a four-fold error, how can we come by such an exact estimate for the age of the universe.
I'm not sure I follow PS; the estimated age of the universe owes essentially nothing to what's in the paper that PR you provide a link to is based on (see my earlier posts) ... perhaps it would be of interest to you if I outlined how the age of the observable universe is estimated?

Or did you have some other question?
 
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