Evidence of God's existence

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In 1973, Edward Tryon suggested that our universe might originate from the quantum fluctuation. This requires extremely accurate cancellation between matter energy and gravitational energy. If the matter energy is just slightly (within 1 part in 1050) greater than the gravitational energy, the uncertainty principle would dictate the matter to disappear in a time period that is too short to have any physical meaning. For such gigantic fluctuation to occur spontaneously is almost impossible.
So you're applying the rules of QM to the BB before we even have a quantum theory of gravity or a quantum theory able to address the moment of the BB.

Would it be proper then to apply the same rules of QM to God before you have a theory of creation suitable to address the moment of creation? (Because really, the way you defined God, it actually is the same exact thing).

If so, as improbable as it is that such a quantum fluctuation would have resulted in our universe, it would seem quite a bit more improbable for there to have been a brain supporting a sentient entity with the power capable to make it happen.

(Not that I support your assessment of Tryon, nor Tryon's view--both seem too speculative to be suggestive of the actual truth of the matter).
 
The quest is if your beliefs are rational , compelling, and the best explanation for our existence.
By compelling, I would hope you would mean intellectually compelling rather than a self tickling view. In which case "best explanation" isn't a sufficient criteria... you need an explanation to actually tie somehow to the information required to obtain the truth of the matter. And this means that you need this information.

If you don't have that information, none of your particular speculations has any value. The only thing you can do in this case is outline a general idea of what the truth looks like. But what you're doing is picking things to tickle yourself with... artwork made by artists not snow made by natural processes... creativity not creation ex nihilo... and the like.

That's not sufficient to make something intellectually compelling.
 
The "attributes", or the "essence", of God are His primary characteristics, so they cannot be completely communicated to man. They can be described to a degree, but they cannot be fully defined.

Finite man cannot define the infinite. The Bible is the Word of God, and as such it reveals those facts about the Creator that He has seen fit to reveal about Himself.
The bible was written by men. If there is a god, the universe would be the Word of God, not some book (after all, it would be rationally compelling that if God created the universe, God is its author--and it would make more sense to suppose that God authored the universe than that he authored this particular bible as opposed to that one; it'd be essentially indisputable, given that God created the universe, that he authored it!) This is especially true if you hold man to be fallible, and descriptions to be inadequate.

So want to know how the universe was created? Put down your bible. Read the universe.
 
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There's a clear "paper trail".

Read: The Bible Unearthed.

Finkelstein and Silberman have themselves written a provocative book that bears the marks of a detective story. In juxtaposing the biblical record and archaeological data, they work with tantalizing fragments of a distant past. Assembling clues to argue their thesis requires bold imagination and disciplined research. The Bible Unearthed exhibits both in abundance. Imagination invariably exceeds the evidence; research makes plausible the reconstruction. Fortunately, the book does not achieve its goal: to attempt to separate history from legend. It is better than that, for it shows how intertwined they are. What actually happened and what a people thought happened belong to a single historical process. That understanding leads to a sobering thought. Stories of exodus from oppression and conquest of land, stories of exile and return and stories of triumphal vision are eerily contemporary. If history is written for the present, are we doomed to repeat the past
 
Sounds to me like GIBHOR has been reading William Lane Craig and nothing else. Craig also starts with the Kalam Cosmological Argument and throws in a heavy dose of "certainty" that Jesus's resurrection actually happened as described in one of the gospels or another.

When I've heard Craig debate, he's skilled at the performance art, but I get the impression that even he doesn't actually believe the BS he's gushing out. He seems like he's a fairly smart guy, then unloads these debate points that read like our OP here. I think that to him, it's a game of who can best "perform" in a debate, instead of really trying to make and defend a valid position.
 
you can believe whatever you want. The quest is if your beliefs are rational , compelling, and the best explanation for our existence.

You believe something had to 'cause' the Universe. Fine. Why do you have to invoke a hopelessly complicated, intelligent, conscious being who forgives sins and answers prayers, rather than something simple?

Why is someone who invokes Aliens or a Computer Simulator less worthy in their explanation than your God hypothesis?
 
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Maibe one day you make some comparison, and then decide if you were right with your assertion.

answersingenesis.org/home/area/flood/ch2.asp
I have made comparisons, much more so it seems than anyone attempting to whitewash the truth at Answersingenesis.

The Biblical story of Noah is derived from Gilgamesh, but AiG doesnt seem to realise that Gilgamesh in turn is derived from Atrahasis

did you know that

The account of the Gilgamesh flood story was found in the rubble of the Library of Nineveh, which employed Rabbis as scribes at a time before any version of the Noah story existed

did you know that

The Gilgamesh story existed before Judaism did by about 1300 years

did you know that

The Jews themselves say that they bought back many aspects of their religion from Babylon

did you know that

The flood account isn't the only story from Genesis that existed more than a thousand years earlier than any biblical text in a pagan religion.

did you know that (prove it, name the others)

These texts predate the date that the Bible was dictated to Moses on his way out of Egypt by a thousand years

did you know that

No secular historian doubts that the religious beliefs of the Jews were derived mainly from the religious beliefs of the Babylonians

did you know that

really, you can claim that your religion is righteous as much as you like, but it relies upon the jews telling the truth doesn't it, thats the Jews, the ones that your God decided to break his covenant with, as hes already rejected their beliefs I'm wondering why you aren't. Do you trust the Jews where your God no longer does

youre going to have to answer these questions aren't you "mighty and awesome God"

btw do you think your God will be pleased that you are using one of his epithets as your sign in name at this forum, did you forget hes a bit vengeful ?
:D
 
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Undesired Walrus, you're exactly right. The Big Bang was a very simple event. Lots and lots of energy in a very small space, then the laws of physics (which we're still working on) taking over from there. From that first fraction of a second after it happened, we pretty much have the rest of our existence figured out, no need for a God hypothesis.

So at this point, we have a really freakin' humongous appearance of energy, but otherwise fairly simple to explain. But if you assume there was a God who caused it, you have to not just explain the fairly simple appearance of energy; you have to explain how an extremely complex, intelligent, infinitely powerful sentient being came into existence. If those are the only two choices, there's no contest which is preferable - one is way way way way way simpler than the other.
 
These texts predate the date that the Bible was dictated to Moses on his way out of Egypt by a thousand years

You say that as if it was a factual occurrence. The exodus of the Jews from Egypt is every bit as mythical as the story about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. No serious archaeologists believe it actually happened. There is a huge empty place where we would expect to find tons of evidence of the Exodus, and all the positive evidence we do have conclusively shows that the Jews were indigenous to the area of Judea.
 
You say that as if it was a factual occurrence. The exodus of the Jews from Egypt is every bit as mythical as the story about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. No serious archaeologists believe it actually happened. There is a huge empty place where we would expect to find tons of evidence of the Exodus, and all the positive evidence we do have conclusively shows that the Jews were indigenous to the area of Judea.

We know this, he doesn't. I'm not trying to get through to us, I'm trying to put things in simple terms that a fundie can understand
;)
 
I followed one of the papers there some years back, which when all was untangled, "proved" that Adam drowned in the Flood!
Maffematically done, it were!
Drat that Noah, leaving his kin behind!
 
@GIBHOR Please pay attention to the words of Saint Augustine before you make a statement about the history of the Christian Church, or Physics, or Cosmology, or, apparently just about everything else.

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]
Augustine, The Literal Meaning of Genesis (De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim) [AD 408] (translated by J. H. Taylor, Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41) Book 1 Chapter 19 Paragraph 39

Thank you. :th:
 
I followed one of the papers there some years back, which when all was untangled, "proved" that Adam drowned in the Flood!
Maffematically done, it were!
Drat that Noah, leaving his kin behind!

I think that it was actually Methuselah who "died in the flood", and not Adam.

[off topic] Didn't some early Jewish writings, when using Bishop Ussher's dateline technique actually "prove" that Methuselah actually lived on after the flood, and have to get altered to fit the "correct" timeline" - that he really dies during the flood (or perhaps have a heart attack the day before it started - after all he was 969.

- very vague memory of reading this soomewhere -

[/off topic]

Norm
 
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elshamah.heavenforum.com/does-god-exist-origin-of-god-metaphysical-reality-f10/who-is-god-essence-of-god-t79.htm

The phrase "Essence of God" is a theological term used to refer to God's personal characteristics, or to the facets of His personality. Sometimes the term "Attributes of God" is used to refer to God's essence. The "attributes", or the "essence", of God are His primary characteristics, so they cannot be completely communicated to man. They can be described to a degree, but they cannot be fully defined.

Finite man cannot define the infinite. The Bible is the Word of God, and as such it reveals those facts about the Creator that He has seen fit to reveal about Himself.

Man suppose that God thinks like a man. We think God wants revenge, because when we're insulted, we want revenge. When we are cheated, we want immediate justice and retribution. We are indignant and shocked at the behavior of others, so we expect God to be shocked.

But God does not feel insulted. He does not feel cheated - He owns everything. He is not indignant, temperamental, or emotional. He does not throw tantrums (or lightning bolts). He is not surprised or shocked by anything. He is never depressed or moody.

God is not arrogant or egotistical. He knows Himself, is self-assured, and is humble.

God is a rational, logical, stable-minded, patient; and all of His thinking is backed up by His omniscience. And He approaches every issue from the basis of His perfect character, the subject of this study.

God approaches every issue regarding human beings out of His love for all men. His thinking toward man takes all of His attributes into consideration - but Love is always present. It is God's thinking about us, in love, that is His perfect Grace thinking. He is always gracious, always thinks Grace.

Spirituality is one of God's primary attributes. God is immaterial, in a universe that is made up of both material and immaterial. God has revealed something of what He is in the Word, but only He knows Himself fully. We must rely on what is written in the Bible for any understanding of what God is like.

The fact that God is a spiritual being means that He lives. Spirituality implies life. Jer. 10:10 and 1 Th. 1:9 tell us that God is alive and well. The life of God has no beginning and no ending. God is eternal. The Christian shares God's eternal life, but since his eternal life has a beginning at the time he accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour, his eternal life is properly called "everlasting life".

All of the characteristics of the divine essence are present in God at all times, but not all are manifest at the same time, just as while all colors are present in a ray of white light, the individual colors can be seen only under certain conditions of reflection or refraction. Various attributes of God can be seen in certain situations. For example:

* In salvation, God's love and eternal life are apparent.

* In judgment, His righteousness and justice are manifested.

* In God's faithfulness, His immutability and veracity are shown.

* In God's Plan, His omniscience and sovereignty are seen.

* In God's will, sovereignty is paramount.

* In God's revelation, veracity, love, and omniscience are obvious.

The rest of this paper is devoted to a description of the ten characteristics of the Essence of God as seen in the various Bible passages that describe them.

Sorry, but this hardly makes sense, let alone of anything else.
 
Undesired Walrus, you're exactly right. The Big Bang was a very simple event. Lots and lots of energy in a very small space, then the laws of physics (which we're still working on) taking over from there. From that first fraction of a second after it happened, we pretty much have the rest of our existence figured out, no need for a God hypothesis.

So at this point, we have a really freakin' humongous appearance of energy, but otherwise fairly simple to explain. But if you assume there was a God who caused it, you have to not just explain the fairly simple appearance of energy; you have to explain how an extremely complex, intelligent, infinitely powerful sentient being came into existence. If those are the only two choices, there's no contest which is preferable - one is way way way way way simpler than the other.

Besides, it's so much more exciting to say "We don't know" (Which is what humble people must say) rather than "The Christian God who answers prayers, forgives sins, invents heaven and hell, hates homosexuals, dislikes alcohol abuse did it".
 
You say that as if it was a factual occurrence. The exodus of the Jews from Egypt is every bit as mythical as the story about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. No serious archaeologists believe it actually happened. There is a huge empty place where we would expect to find tons of evidence of the Exodus, and all the positive evidence we do have conclusively shows that the Jews were indigenous to the area of Judea.

despite what you think, there IS evidence of exodus.

ensignmessage.com/archives/exodusscptcs.html

Rohl’s biggest discovery, though, was in finding the evidence for the Exodus in the Thirteenth Dynasty. His findings are summarized by John Fulton, a supporter of David Rohl:

‘Before Moses, the Bible records that the Israelites were enslaved by their Egyptian hosts (Exodus 1:8-14). In the Brooklyn Museum (p.276, fig. 310) resides a papyrus scroll numbered Brooklyn 35:1446 which was acquired in the late 19th century by Charles Wilbour. This dates to the reign of Sobekhotep III, the predecessor of Neferhotep I and so the pharaoh who reigned one generation before Moses. This papyrus is a decree by the pharaoh for a transfer of slaves. Of the 95 names of slaves mentioned in the letter, 50% are Semitic in origin. What is more, it lists the names of these slaves in the original Semitic language and then adds the Egyptian name each had been assigned, which is something the Bible records the Egyptians as doing, cf. Joseph’s name given to him by pharaoh (Genesis 41:45). Some of the Semitic names are biblical and include:- Menahem, Issachar, Asher, and Shiprah (cf. Exodus 1:15-21).
 
despite what you think, there IS evidence of exodus.

ensignmessage.com/archives/exodusscptcs.html

Rohl’s biggest discovery, though, was in finding the evidence for the Exodus in the Thirteenth Dynasty. His findings are summarized by John Fulton, a supporter of David Rohl:

‘Before Moses, the Bible records that the Israelites were enslaved by their Egyptian hosts (Exodus 1:8-14). In the Brooklyn Museum (p.276, fig. 310) resides a papyrus scroll numbered Brooklyn 35:1446 which was acquired in the late 19th century by Charles Wilbour. This dates to the reign of Sobekhotep III, the predecessor of Neferhotep I and so the pharaoh who reigned one generation before Moses. This papyrus is a decree by the pharaoh for a transfer of slaves. Of the 95 names of slaves mentioned in the letter, 50% are Semitic in origin. What is more, it lists the names of these slaves in the original Semitic language and then adds the Egyptian name each had been assigned, which is something the Bible records the Egyptians as doing, cf. Joseph’s name given to him by pharaoh (Genesis 41:45). Some of the Semitic names are biblical and include:- Menahem, Issachar, Asher, and Shiprah (cf. Exodus 1:15-21).

David Rohls claims are pseudo history and have not found widespread acceptance outside the usual pseudo science circles, that you have to rely on pseudo science speaks volumes, that you have been unable to answer any of my questions says a lot more
:rolleyes:

the bible itself claims that there were 2 million slaves who left during the exodus, science tells us that this is approximately 1/5 of the world population at the time, the bible is therefore wrong as it states an impossibility and if its wrong there...............
 
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despite what you think, there IS evidence of exodus.

ensignmessage.com/archives/exodusscptcs.html

Rohl’s biggest discovery, though, was in finding the evidence for the Exodus in the Thirteenth Dynasty. His findings are summarized by John Fulton, a supporter of David Rohl:

‘Before Moses, the Bible records that the Israelites were enslaved by their Egyptian hosts (Exodus 1:8-14). In the Brooklyn Museum (p.276, fig. 310) resides a papyrus scroll numbered Brooklyn 35:1446 which was acquired in the late 19th century by Charles Wilbour. This dates to the reign of Sobekhotep III, the predecessor of Neferhotep I and so the pharaoh who reigned one generation before Moses. This papyrus is a decree by the pharaoh for a transfer of slaves. Of the 95 names of slaves mentioned in the letter, 50% are Semitic in origin. What is more, it lists the names of these slaves in the original Semitic language and then adds the Egyptian name each had been assigned, which is something the Bible records the Egyptians as doing, cf. Joseph’s name given to him by pharaoh (Genesis 41:45). Some of the Semitic names are biblical and include:- Menahem, Issachar, Asher, and Shiprah (cf. Exodus 1:15-21).

I hope you don't try to use that level of scholarship in a history class. You'd have evidence for the crucifixion if you tried.
 
...
Man suppose that God thinks like a man. We think God wants revenge, because when we're insulted, we want revenge. When we are cheated, we want immediate justice and retribution. We are indignant and shocked at the behavior of others, so we expect God to be shocked.
... (endless gibberish)


If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

God apparently revealed himself to be easily insulted, vengeful, etc. Who are we to go adding interpretations about how he's not really like that? I think that's a bit of a sin on your part, my good man.
 
Or you could go here for a full list of these kinds of arguments, and there are hundreds of arguments listed here:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

Examples:

ARGUMENT FROM BEAUTY, a.k.a. DESIGN/TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Isn't that baby/sunset/flower/tree beautiful?
(2) Only God could have made them so beautiful.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

MORAL ARGUMENT (I)
(1) Person X, a well-known atheist, was morally inferior to the rest of us.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

MORAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) In my younger days I was a cursing, drinking, smoking, gambling, child-molesting, thieving, murdering, bed-wetting bastard.
(2) That all changed once I became religious.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

DORE'S ARGUMENT
(1) I forgot to take my meds.
(2) Therefore, I AM CHRIST!!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM GUITAR MASTERY
(1) Eric Clapton is God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPREHENSIBILITY
(1) Flabble glurk zoom boink blubba snurgleschnortz ping!
(2) No one has ever refuted (1).
(3) Therefore, God exists.

But my all time favorite argument is:

ARGUMENT FROM ABSURDITY
(1) Maranathra!
(2) Therefore, God exists.
 
despite what you think, there IS evidence of exodus.

ensignmessage.com/archives/exodusscptcs.html

Rohl’s biggest discovery, though, was in finding the evidence for the Exodus in the Thirteenth Dynasty. His findings are summarized by John Fulton, a supporter of David Rohl:

‘Before Moses, the Bible records that the Israelites were enslaved by their Egyptian hosts (Exodus 1:8-14). In the Brooklyn Museum (p.276, fig. 310) resides a papyrus scroll numbered Brooklyn 35:1446 which was acquired in the late 19th century by Charles Wilbour. This dates to the reign of Sobekhotep III, the predecessor of Neferhotep I and so the pharaoh who reigned one generation before Moses. This papyrus is a decree by the pharaoh for a transfer of slaves. Of the 95 names of slaves mentioned in the letter, 50% are Semitic in origin. What is more, it lists the names of these slaves in the original Semitic language and then adds the Egyptian name each had been assigned, which is something the Bible records the Egyptians as doing, cf. Joseph’s name given to him by pharaoh (Genesis 41:45). Some of the Semitic names are biblical and include:- Menahem, Issachar, Asher, and Shiprah (cf. Exodus 1:15-21).

1. You'll notice the difference in scale there. Some less than 50 slaves with semitic names are mentioned. That is a massive difference between that and 2 million leaving Egypt. Among other things because:

2. The 13'th Dynasty (to which Sobekhotep III belongs) is before the Hyskos invasion. Egypt was as much bottled in by the desert as it was protected from the outside from it. That a few slaves would be brought in by caravans or by boat, sure, it's possible. (Egypt had a trade with Mesopotamia since pre-dynastic times.) But nobody had yet the technology to wage a war across the desert. So the notion that they would enslave some 2 million people from across the desert is underpants-on-the-head pencils-up-the-nose stupid. More importantly:

3. There is no evidence of such warfare or even the armies to do it in Egypt at the time. And even more importantly:

4. The armies of Egypt even at the time of the Hyskos invasion were thoroughly obsolete. (And we're a bit before it at this time.) If Egypt were to somehow manage to magically teleport its armies across the desert and wage war to enslave those Hebrews, Egypt would have gotten thoroughly spanked. As they will soon be by the Hyskos.

Egypt's army was that bad, that the Hyskos pretty much rolled over them.

Almost funnily, Egypt's army and equipment at the time they got invaded, weren't even up to what's recorded about the war between Lagash and Umma. Egypt's army was over 1000 years out of date, compared to its eastern "neighbours". Its only saving grace was that there was a desert between it and those neighbours, or they'd have been toast.

The notion that _that_ Egyptian army would actually attack those neighbours and enslave some two millions of them, is on par with 9/11 conspiracies for sheer stonking stupidity.

5. Exodus also mentions being chased by Egyptian chariots. Egypt didn't actually have any, nor horses for that matter, until the Hyskos brought those. That's one reason why the Hyskos just rolled over the obsolete Egyptian infantry.

If Neferhotep I and the Pharaohs after him had had any chariots, or even enough army to pose any threat to a migrating band of 2 millions (even of civillians with sticks), Egypt could have saved itself from the Hyskos. Which, again, it didn't.

The first mention of the Egyptian army actually using horses is in the wars to free itself from the Hyskos, in the 17'th dynasty. So giving them to a 13'th dynasty Pharaoh is just stupid even by the standards of the pseudo-archaeology used to try to prop up the Bible.

Even the earliest skeletons of horses found in Egypt (at this point, probably still belonging to the Hyskos) are from about a century after Sobekhotep III.

6. "Semitic" names doesn't equal "Hebrew." The whole group of languages derived from Akkadian, including Babylonian, Hebrew, Phoenician, etc, were semitic and would have semitic names. There's a vast teritory out there from which such slaves could be bought (but again, in tiny numbers) or brought in by their immigrating masters. (Egypt had a steady immigration, though not yet comparable with the massive immigration wave that would come later.)

From the slightly over 40 slaves mentioned there with semitic names, realistically you'd be lucky if 2-3 were even from the region that would later become the Hebrew kingdoms. If any.

ETA:

7. The only places within reach of the Egyptian army at the time, were by sea. (And again, never mind that the army was obsolete and tiny and there's no evidence of such warfare.) And how even the later attempted invasions of the Sea People, during the 19'th and 20'th dynasties, proved: the tech level just wasn't yet up to snuff to haul and supply a large army by sea.

But there's an even more perverse issue there: even theoretically, they could only haul and supply an army in that eastern part if it was basically on the shore. Everything else was out of their reach the hard way. And the area of the latter Hebrew kingdoms simply wasn't by the sea.
 
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Sure. What is not rational about my argument ?

The appearance of the universe has a meta-physical origin anyway, with , or without a efficient cause. If God is not the cause of the universe, what else would you suggest ?


I would suggest you and I use the following sentence when asked this question.

I dont know.
 
1. You'll notice the difference in scale there. Some less than 50 slaves with semitic names are mentioned. That is a massive difference between that and 2 million leaving Egypt. Among other things because:

2. The 13'th Dynasty (to which Sobekhotep III belongs) is before the Hyskos invasion. Egypt was as much bottled in by the desert as it was protected from the outside from it. That a few slaves would be brought in by caravans or by boat, sure, it's possible. (Egypt had a trade with Mesopotamia since pre-dynastic times.) But nobody had yet the technology to wage a war across the desert. So the notion that they would enslave some 2 million people from across the desert is underpants-on-the-head pencils-up-the-nose stupid. More importantly:

3. There is no evidence of such warfare or even the armies to do it in Egypt at the time. And even more importantly:

4. The armies of Egypt even at the time of the Hyskos invasion were thoroughly obsolete. (And we're a bit before it at this time.) If Egypt were to somehow manage to magically teleport its armies across the desert and wage war to enslave those Hebrews, Egypt would have gotten thoroughly spanked. As they will soon be by the Hyskos.

Egypt's army was that bad, that the Hyskos pretty much rolled over them.

Almost funnily, Egypt's army and equipment at the time they got invaded, weren't even up to what's recorded about the war between Lagash and Umma. Egypt's army was over 1000 years out of date, compared to its eastern "neighbours". Its only saving grace was that there was a desert between it and those neighbours, or they'd have been toast.

The notion that _that_ Egyptian army would actually attack those neighbours and enslave some two millions of them, is on par with 9/11 conspiracies for sheer stonking stupidity.

5. Exodus also mentions being chased by Egyptian chariots. Egypt didn't actually have any, nor horses for that matter, until the Hyskos brought those. That's one reason why the Hyskos just rolled over the obsolete Egyptian infantry.

If Neferhotep I and the Pharaohs after him had had any chariots, or even enough army to pose any threat to a migrating band of 2 millions (even of civillians with sticks), Egypt could have saved itself from the Hyskos. Which, again, it didn't.

The first mention of the Egyptian army actually using horses is in the wars to free itself from the Hyskos, in the 17'th dynasty. So giving them to a 13'th dynasty Pharaoh is just stupid even by the standards of the pseudo-archaeology used to try to prop up the Bible.

Even the earliest skeletons of horses found in Egypt (at this point, probably still belonging to the Hyskos) are from about a century after Sobekhotep III.

6. "Semitic" names doesn't equal "Hebrew." The whole group of languages derived from Akkadian, including Babylonian, Hebrew, Phoenician, etc, were semitic and would have semitic names. There's a vast teritory out there from which such slaves could be bought (but again, in tiny numbers) or brought in by their immigrating masters. (Egypt had a steady immigration, though not yet comparable with the massive immigration wave that would come later.)

From the slightly over 40 slaves mentioned there with semitic names, realistically you'd be lucky if 2-3 were even from the region that would later become the Hebrew kingdoms. If any.

ETA:

7. The only places within reach of the Egyptian army at the time, were by sea. (And again, never mind that the army was obsolete and tiny and there's no evidence of such warfare.) And how even the later attempted invasions of the Sea People, during the 19'th and 20'th dynasties, proved: the tech level just wasn't yet up to snuff to haul and supply a large army by sea.

But there's an even more perverse issue there: even theoretically, they could only haul and supply an army in that eastern part if it was basically on the shore. Everything else was out of their reach the hard way. And the area of the latter Hebrew kingdoms simply wasn't by the sea.

Didn't I just tell him to listen to the words of Saint Augustine? QED :jaw-dropp
 
1. You'll notice the difference in scale there. Some less than 50 slaves with semitic names are mentioned. That is a massive difference between that and 2 million leaving Egypt. Among other things because:

2. The 13'th Dynasty (to which Sobekhotep III belongs) is before the Hyskos invasion. Egypt was as much bottled in by the desert as it was protected from the outside from it. That a few slaves would be brought in by caravans or by boat, sure, it's possible. (Egypt had a trade with Mesopotamia since pre-dynastic times.) But nobody had yet the technology to wage a war across the desert. So the notion that they would enslave some 2 million people from across the desert is underpants-on-the-head pencils-up-the-nose stupid. More importantly:

3. There is no evidence of such warfare or even the armies to do it in Egypt at the time. And even more importantly:

4. The armies of Egypt even at the time of the Hyskos invasion were thoroughly obsolete. (And we're a bit before it at this time.) If Egypt were to somehow manage to magically teleport its armies across the desert and wage war to enslave those Hebrews, Egypt would have gotten thoroughly spanked. As they will soon be by the Hyskos.

Egypt's army was that bad, that the Hyskos pretty much rolled over them.

Almost funnily, Egypt's army and equipment at the time they got invaded, weren't even up to what's recorded about the war between Lagash and Umma. Egypt's army was over 1000 years out of date, compared to its eastern "neighbours". Its only saving grace was that there was a desert between it and those neighbours, or they'd have been toast.

The notion that _that_ Egyptian army would actually attack those neighbours and enslave some two millions of them, is on par with 9/11 conspiracies for sheer stonking stupidity.

5. Exodus also mentions being chased by Egyptian chariots. Egypt didn't actually have any, nor horses for that matter, until the Hyskos brought those. That's one reason why the Hyskos just rolled over the obsolete Egyptian infantry.

If Neferhotep I and the Pharaohs after him had had any chariots, or even enough army to pose any threat to a migrating band of 2 millions (even of civillians with sticks), Egypt could have saved itself from the Hyskos. Which, again, it didn't.

The first mention of the Egyptian army actually using horses is in the wars to free itself from the Hyskos, in the 17'th dynasty. So giving them to a 13'th dynasty Pharaoh is just stupid even by the standards of the pseudo-archaeology used to try to prop up the Bible.

Even the earliest skeletons of horses found in Egypt (at this point, probably still belonging to the Hyskos) are from about a century after Sobekhotep III.

6. "Semitic" names doesn't equal "Hebrew." The whole group of languages derived from Akkadian, including Babylonian, Hebrew, Phoenician, etc, were semitic and would have semitic names. There's a vast teritory out there from which such slaves could be bought (but again, in tiny numbers) or brought in by their immigrating masters. (Egypt had a steady immigration, though not yet comparable with the massive immigration wave that would come later.)

From the slightly over 40 slaves mentioned there with semitic names, realistically you'd be lucky if 2-3 were even from the region that would later become the Hebrew kingdoms. If any.

ETA:

7. The only places within reach of the Egyptian army at the time, were by sea. (And again, never mind that the army was obsolete and tiny and there's no evidence of such warfare.) And how even the later attempted invasions of the Sea People, during the 19'th and 20'th dynasties, proved: the tech level just wasn't yet up to snuff to haul and supply a large army by sea.

But there's an even more perverse issue there: even theoretically, they could only haul and supply an army in that eastern part if it was basically on the shore. Everything else was out of their reach the hard way. And the area of the latter Hebrew kingdoms simply wasn't by the sea.


This is the "E" of JREF. Thank you, Hans. I have a feeling the poster you were attempting to educate will not listen, but I hope you take a little bit of satisfaction knowing at least one long-time lurker did.
 
I think that it was actually Methuselah who "died in the flood", and not Adam.

[off topic] Didn't some early Jewish writings, when using Bishop Ussher's dateline technique actually "prove" that Methuselah actually lived on after the flood, and have to get altered to fit the "correct" timeline" - that he really dies during the flood (or perhaps have a heart attack the day before it started - after all he was 969.

- very vague memory of reading this soomewhere -

[/off topic]

Norm
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The poor schlumpf on AIG failed to use his own chronology to finger out exactly what the consequences of it would be. I just took his numbers and pointed out the problem with Noah's abandoning the number 1 human during the flood.
They were irritated also when I pointed out in the LA Times that there were physical problems with those pre-Fall herbivores suddenly becoming carnivores, with the serious problems in dentition and digestive system carnivoring needs to be successful.
 
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Man suppose that God thinks like a man. We think God wants revenge, because when we're insulted, we want revenge. When we are cheated, we want immediate justice and retribution. We are indignant and shocked at the behavior of others, so we expect God to be shocked.

But God does not feel insulted. He does not feel cheated - He owns everything. He is not indignant, temperamental, or emotional. He does not throw tantrums (or lightning bolts). He is not surprised or shocked by anything. He is never depressed or moody.

God is not arrogant or egotistical. He knows Himself, is self-assured, and is humble.

God is a rational, logical, stable-minded, patient; and all of His thinking is backed up by His omniscience. And He approaches every issue from the basis of His perfect character, the subject of this study.

Which Bible have you been reading? The God of the Bible is petty, vain, jealous, sadistic, xenophobic, vengeful and just plain mean.

Before you take this thread any further, I suggest you read this. The guy who started that thread talks a lot about evidence too.
 
Really havign a god as first mover make no sense, as you only shifted the origin one step, now you have to POSIT god is eternal or you are in the conendary to have to explain god creation. And if you posit any stuff, then why not jsut posit there was nothing before the universe sprang into existence.

As for the fine tuning argument, I am sorry but WHICH universe is fine tuned ??? Without technology most of the earth surface is either downright hostile to human life, or only passable. And the earth is what percentage of the surface of the solar system ? 0.000000001% ? Less ? Not even counting the rest of the universe , I don't see fine tuning I see imperfection of our body and an utter waste of space (in an extremly hostile universe).


Those are argumentn for gods existence only if you already posit it exists. If you do not, then the argument lead to no conclusion.

The fine-tuning argument isn't concerned with just human life. For any life at all to develop, physical constants have to have very precise values (unless you want to postulate the existence of non-molecular life, non-stellar life, or some other exotic life form that contradicts everything we know of biology). Apparent fine-tuning is almost universally accepted. Actual fine-tuning is hotly debated.
 
(off topic)


[qupte=Gawdzilla]
Just avoid American beer, it's like making love in a canoe.
(off topic)
That's funny, I had a Belgian friend in grad school who said this fairly often. However, I think this is less true. There are some very good microbrews in the US. I have had a lot of good ones from Maine. Cadillac Mountain Stout is very good but only available in Maine and primarily around Bar Harbor.
(/off topic) [/QUOTE]

Yeah, that joke stopped making sense ten or fifteen years ago.
 
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