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Reincarnation as a trivial scientific fact




Well, since you ask, it appears to me to be a string of non sequitur arguments:​
I'll add my corresponding statements in blue before your comments (in red):
A large proportion of your body's matter is regularly replaced. Your body as well as your feelings, thinking and behaviour change a lot in the course of your life. Your psychological properties which are accessible to empirical research would have had a different development under different circumstances. Nevertheless you probably are convinced that you yourself were the baby with your name and that you would still be you yourself, if you had been kidnapped as a baby and brought up in an exotic culture.​
It begins by arguing that much of the physical matter in our bodies is regularly replaced, yet we "feel" we are the same person, therefore souls. Uh, why? If I replace every brick in my house, one at a time, it will always "feel" like my house. So what?​
Your logical comparison is quite revealing. You assume
  • a constant person ("I", "my")
and consider equivalent the relationships of this person
  • to a changing house belonging to this person and
  • to the person's body (changing from birth to death).
By the way, do you claim here that a house "feels" in a similar way as we (and other animals) do?

You haven't answered this question: Would you still be you yourself (i.e the same experiencing subject), if you had been kidnapped as a baby and brought up in an exotic culture, yes or no?

It has obviously been possible to transform the consciousness of 'you' as a child, to the consciousness of 'you' as an adult, by continuous (small) changes. Do you assume that it would in principle also be possible to transform 'you' as a conscious subject, to 'me' as a conscious subject, by continuous changes? (A continuous transformation of your body, to a body identical to my body, by gradual changes is logically conceivable.)
Trillions of egg cells have been successfully fertilized during the transition from ape-like ancestors to us. In principle all these fertilizations can be numbered and we can attribute the number n to one having led to a reductionist R. R believes that the currently accepted physical and chemical laws are enough to transform a fertilized egg cell into a self-conscious person.

Nevertheless, the fundamental distinction between the fertilization n (and the body emerging from it) and trillions other ones remains a complete mystery to R. A reductionist explanation is impossible, because it would have to deduce this distinction from a material difference in the fertilized egg cells and such a difference is incompatible with the fact that for every reductionist another fertilization distinguishes itself.​
Then it says the consciousness which emerges from each fertilised egg somehow distinguishes itself from all other near-identical fertilised eggs, therefore souls (at least I think it says so, it's rather long-winded). Again - why does this present any kind of puzzle needing souls to explain it?​
Without understanding and accepting the puzzle, an explanation obviously seems superfluous.

From a purely materialist point of view, it makes absolutely no sense that you experience the world from your body and not from one of the many other bodies of the present, past and future.
The attempt to deduce individual consciousness from the fertilized egg cell leads to further problems. What I show here in the case of DNA is by analogy valid for the whole fertilized egg cell. In principle the DNA of one person can be continuously transformed into the DNA of another by small changes. Individual consciousness, however, is descrete insofar as it is impossible to imagine that the consciousness of one person can be transformed by continuous changes into the one of another.

Also the example of monozygous twins shows that a fertilized egg cell cannot be enough to determine individual consciousness. The twins originate from the same cell, but they experience the world as separate individuals.
Next it declares that since identical twins are born as two different consciousnesses, but have genetically identical bodies, therefore souls. That makes no sense at all unless you assume that consciousness does not arise from a brain's function but directly from an individual's genes. Who thinks that?​
Try to understand the fundamental difference between continuity and discreteness (discontinuity).

You didn't comment on this:
A most impressive refutation of reductionism represents a thought experiment. We assume a machine capable of producing copies of everything which do not differ physically and chemically from the original. According to consequent reductionism such a copy of you would be capable of surviving, and more importantly, it would not be distinguishable from you at all. The copy would have all your memories and properties and would believe like you that it is you. Not even the question whether you are the original or the copy would make any sense.​
If we created such a copy of you, who would be 'you', you or your copy?
For what follows I assume that everyone of us remains independently of the circumstances of one's life the same experiencing subject. This subject I call soul. The concept 'soul' abstains from age and current physical and psychological states.​
Then it declares the author's definition of soul = consciousness (as far as I can tell). Unhelpful added confusion.​
Instead of
  • This subject I call soul
maybe I should have written:
  • For such individually experiencing subjects to be possible, I postulate the existence of discrete undivisible entities, which we can call 'souls' (or 'psychons'). To each individually experiencing subject corresponds one soul.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
 
What is the Purpose of this Thread?

Please forgive this old flatulate ... I saw this thread long after it was originally started, and after having read through the first few pages, I have become quite confused as to its purpose.

Is the purpose of this thread to prove that any particular 'theory' of reincarnation has validity, or is it to merely demonstrate the ability of the OP to argue in circles without ever having to prove anything at all?

:confused:
 
Please forgive this old flatulate ... I saw this thread long after it was originally started, and after having read through the first few pages, I have become quite confused as to its purpose.

Is the purpose of this thread to prove that any particular 'theory' of reincarnation has validity, or is it to merely demonstrate the ability of the OP to argue in circles without ever having to prove anything at all?

:confused:

A circular argument suits the topic very well.
 
What is the Purpose of this Thread?

I saw this thread long after it was originally started, and after having read through the first few pages, I have become quite confused as to its purpose.


My problem is that I know that reincarnation is a scientific fact, having far-reaching consequences on our life.

In principle every unprejudiced person with a certain intelligence would be able to recognize this fact. Yet there is an evolutionary obstacle: our species has evolved in such a way that it hasn't normally been necessary to change one's world view radically within one life.

Max Planck phrased it that way: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."

The reason that I started posting here was the Million Dollar Challenge.

But on the other hand, it makes no sense to post on a forum haunted primarily by rather tenacious followers of othodox mainstream science. So your wondering concerning the purpose of this thread is actually justified.

Maybe for me it's just a sort of game, where I'm always in the winning position, at least from a logical and rational perspective.

If you find one single substantial rebuttal of one of my many claims concerning biological evolution, reincarnation, genetic information, demography, psychon-deficit diseases and so on, please let me know.
Cheers,
Wolfgang
 
My problem is that I know that reincarnation is a scientific fact, having far-reaching consequences on our life.
No

You don't

You might have a perverse, ridiculous need to believe in it

But you don't know it

Your psychon stuff is nonsense. That much you do know

For a person to be born, what is required is a human soul which has evolved by reincarnation. Human souls are reborn with increased probability in a similar environment

:rolleyes:

But on the other hand, it makes no sense to post on a forum haunted primarily by rather tenacious followers of othodox mainstream science.
As you have nothing of value to add, it is absurd for you to imply that 'orthodox mainstream science' is somehow less than worthwhile

So why do you persist in posting here?
 
Shouldn't this thread be in some kind of woo section ?

There is no evidentiary (physical or mathematical) basis for reincarnation whatsoever under basic scientific methodology.

Hence, woo section ?

Or at least some sort of philosophy section ?

:con2:
 
Boy, have I been a fool. All this time, thinking birth control, education, and women's liberation have led to lower birthrates in first world countries. How didn't I see it before? We're hitting the limit of our eternal stockpile of enzyme ghosts! It's all so obvious, once you realize it.
:hypnotize
 
Max Planck phrased it that way: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."

Unfortunately, the nay-sayers keep being reborn :)

Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
I've presented a lof of evidence for reincarnation in this thread. And only such concrete evidence can in the end decide whether reincarnation as a scientific hypothesis is in agreement with reality or not.

So read my contributions of this thread, and let me know why you don't consider my arguments in favour of reincarnation as valid evidence.


You have presented no evidence whatsoever. You have simply proffered assertions and post hoc-developed hypotheses. At best, your arguments are circular. More likely, though, they are just faith-based babble.
 
The demographic transition goes into reverse

In A link between wealth and breeding - The demographic transition goes into reverse we learn that an inverse correlation between fertility and weath originally constituted a paradox:

"One of the paradoxes of human biology is that the rich world has fewer children than the poor world. In most species, improved circumstances are expected to increase reproductive effort, not reduce it, yet as economic development gets going, country after country has experienced what is known as the demographic transition: fertility (defined as the number of children borne by a woman over her lifetime) drops from around eight to near one and a half."

One paragraph of The Demographic Saturation Theory is enough to resolve the paradox:

"The relationship between poverty and fertiliy (which is no longer well established) is not direct but indirect. The poorer and less educated populations are, the higher is their mortality and the lower their saturation value. Because they are the last who get the benefit of the technological and medical progress, they are the last who reach saturation. Also in Europe, fertility among the poorest groups was the last to decline."
And the next paragraph explains why "at advanced HDI levels, further development can reverse the declining trend in fertility":

The population of a country is composed of groups which have different saturation values or have reached saturation at different times. The groups having reached saturation at first, are the first with very low (sub-replacement) fertility, but they will also be the first whose fertility will increase again because of population aging. For this reason, in some countries with low fertility, more educated groups with higher incomes should have higher fertility than less educated groups with lower incomes."

Once again: good science makes predictions before the fact. So the steady increase in fertility in most countries of the developed world is strong evidence for evolution by reincarnation.

Quotes from Advances in development reverse fertility declines:
The negative association of fertility with economic and social development has therefore become one of the most solidly established and generally accepted empirical regularities in the social sciences. ... In many highly developed countries, the trend towards low fertility has also been deemed irreversible. ... Here we show, using new cross-sectional and longitudinal analyses of the total fertility rate and the human development index (HDI), a fundamental change in the well-established negative relationship between fertility and development as the global population entered the twenty-first century. Although development continues to promote fertility decline at low and medium HDI levels, our analyses show that at advanced HDI levels, further development can reverse the declining trend in fertility. The previously negative development–fertility relationship has become J-shaped, with the HDI being positively associated with fertility among highly developed countries." (See also)​
Cheers, Wolfgang
 
So the steady increase in fertility in most countries of the developed world is strong evidence for evolution by reincarnation.


Where, exactly, is this strong evidence of which you wrote?
 
Where, exactly, is this strong evidence of which you wrote?

There is no evidence. This guy truly is the Wizard of Oz. He takes journal articles that are not even remotely related to what he speaks of, and then somehow claims they support his argument.
 
There is no evidence. This guy truly is the Wizard of Oz. He takes journal articles that are not even remotely related to what he speaks of, and then somehow claims they support his argument.

Yes, I know, but he doesn't. I'd like to see him [try to] connect the dots into a cohesive sequence of deductions that gets him from these opinions on fertility rates and HDI all the way to reincarnation.
 
How very odd. Having responded to a request to comment on a post from here in another thread, I just discovered that my response over there has been "kidnapped" and used to try to revive this thread.

It's strange to find, a week or two afterwards, that there's a response here (where I have never posted until now) written as if addressed to me and even asking me direct questions.

do you claim here that a house "feels" in a similar way as we (and other animals) do?
Do I think that my house is sentient? Uhh, no. Are you nuts?
You haven't answered this question: Would you still be you yourself (i.e the same experiencing subject), if you had been kidnapped as a baby and brought up in an exotic culture, yes or no?
Do I think I would still have had a continuous sense of being the same individual, even if I'd had a dramatically different range of life experiences? What, just like every other human being in history? Uhh, yes. Are you nuts?
Do you assume that it would in principle also be possible to transform 'you' as a conscious subject, to 'me' as a conscious subject, by continuous changes? (A continuous transformation of your body, to a body identical to my body, by gradual changes is logically conceivable.)
Do you mean if I happened (by accident or design) to develop into an exact copy of you, would my consciousness suddenly jump into your body? Uhh, no. Are you nuts?
...If we created such a copy of you, who would be 'you', you or your copy?
<Sigh> I would be me.

The OP seems to believe that materialism is unable to explain why each consciousness is permanently associated with a specific individual, and he invokes some magical entity called "psychons" to solve the problem. Unfortunately I don't agree that there is a problem, nor do I agree that invoking magic solves problems.

I don't pretend to understand how consciousness arises from brain function, but I'm inclined to accept the idea that it does unless a more convincing idea comes along. (This psychons idea does not appear to be it.) Assuming, as I do, that a particular consciousness arises in a particular brain, there simply isn't any puzzle about where that consciousness is located, even if there existed an exact duplicate of that brain somewhere else.

I wonder if it would also be the OP's view that materialists should be bewildered by the fact that when one uranium atom decays, all other identical uranium atoms in the universe do not simultaneously decay. Perhaps those have "psychons" too, to let each one know which uranium atom it is. :rolleyes:

PS I assume the above has been discussed to death over the preceding pages, but I'm afraid I really can't bring myself to grind through it all to find out.
 
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In A link between wealth and breeding - The demographic transition goes into reverse we learn that an inverse correlation between fertility and weath originally constituted a paradox:

"One of the paradoxes of human biology is that the rich world has fewer children than the poor world. In most species, improved circumstances are expected to increase reproductive effort, not reduce it, yet as economic development gets going, country after country has experienced what is known as the demographic transition: fertility (defined as the number of children borne by a woman over her lifetime) drops from around eight to near one and a half."

One paragraph of The Demographic Saturation Theory is enough to resolve the paradox:

"The relationship between poverty and fertiliy (which is no longer well established) is not direct but indirect. The poorer and less educated populations are, the higher is their mortality and the lower their saturation value. Because they are the last who get the benefit of the technological and medical progress, they are the last who reach saturation. Also in Europe, fertility among the poorest groups was the last to decline."
And the next paragraph explains why "at advanced HDI levels, further development can reverse the declining trend in fertility":

The population of a country is composed of groups which have different saturation values or have reached saturation at different times. The groups having reached saturation at first, are the first with very low (sub-replacement) fertility, but they will also be the first whose fertility will increase again because of population aging. For this reason, in some countries with low fertility, more educated groups with higher incomes should have higher fertility than less educated groups with lower incomes."

Once again: good science makes predictions before the fact. So the steady increase in fertility in most countries of the developed world is strong evidence for evolution by reincarnation.

Quotes from Advances in development reverse fertility declines:
The negative association of fertility with economic and social development has therefore become one of the most solidly established and generally accepted empirical regularities in the social sciences. ... In many highly developed countries, the trend towards low fertility has also been deemed irreversible. ... Here we show, using new cross-sectional and longitudinal analyses of the total fertility rate and the human development index (HDI), a fundamental change in the well-established negative relationship between fertility and development as the global population entered the twenty-first century. Although development continues to promote fertility decline at low and medium HDI levels, our analyses show that at advanced HDI levels, further development can reverse the declining trend in fertility. The previously negative development–fertility relationship has become J-shaped, with the HDI being positively associated with fertility among highly developed countries." (See also)​
Cheers, Wolfgang
It's actually evidence of improvements in medicine (more freely available in wealthy countries) which improves child survival rates almost beyond reckoning, and also in welfare states and the removal of the need to rely on ones children to provide care during one's old age.
 
Do I think I would still have had a continuous sense of being the same individual, even if I'd had a dramatically different range of life experiences? What, just like every other human being in history? Uhh, yes.
Do you mean if I happened (by accident or design) to develop into an exact copy of you, would my consciousness suddenly jump into your body? Uhh, no.


Answering the question: "If we created such a copy of you, who would be 'you', you or your copy?":

<Sigh> I would be me.


So at least in this respect we start from the same or similar premises.

You have criticized me for naming a constant "experiencing subject" soul (or psychon). In order to express something similar to what I call human soul, you used the following expressions:
  • "the same person"
  • "the consciousness (emerging from a fertilised egg)"
  • "different consciousnesses (of identical twins)"
  • "each (or my) consciousness"
  • "specific individual"
  • "particular individual"
The puzzle consisting in the antagonism of
  • an always changing body/brain
  • an unchanging subject
you explain away by assuming that
  • "a particular consciousness arises in a particular brain"
From a superficial point of view, this seems convincing. However, there is a relevant difference between particular and particular.

Particular means: one (arbitrarily given) out of a countable quantitiy of individuals. This is because we abstain from the subject's particular conscious states, which parallel corresponding changes in the brain. (Mathematically speaking, we have one dimension of something denumerable, i.e. one integer dimension.)

In the second case, particular depends on two dimensions. One dimension is similar to the first case: countable brains of humans (or animals). Yet a second dimension results from the fact, that a material brain can only be given at a particular time. And this second dimension does not even constitute a countable quantity, because time and brain changes in time are continuous. (Mathematically speaking we have one integer dimension allowing particular choices, and one float dimension allowing particular choices.)

Thus the central question remains unsolved: How do you derive the same sentient individual from brains as diverse as the one of a baby and of an age demented person?

The brain of a five-year-old boy has much more in common with the brain of his genetically identical twin than with the "same" brain at the age of 50. Nevertheless, the two sentient subjects of the five-year-old twins are as different from each other as the sentient subject of your body from the sentient subject of my body.

The only solution you have, is to assume that during the (ontogenetic) development of a brain, a unique pattern (or something similar) arises within its material constituents, and this unique pattern, once established, remains not only unchanged until death, but even becomes sentient.

Assuming that a material pattern becomes sentient, is not only invoking strange magic, but is also preposterous to common sense.
As such a pattern (by definition) can only depend on material parts of the brain, an exact copy of your living body would result in a pattern, identical to the pattern in your brain. So the copy would the be same sentient subject as you are.

Another puzzle within reductionist materialism: how can such emerging patterns become so individual, that they are separated from each other by unbridgeable distances?

Cheers, Wolfgang
 
The brain of a five-year-old boy has much more in common with the brain of his genetically identical twin than with the "same" brain at the age of 50. Nevertheless, the two sentient subjects of the five-year-old twins are as different from each other as the sentient subject of your body from the sentient subject of my body.

The only solution you have, is to assume that during the (ontogenetic) development of a brain, a unique pattern (or something similar) arises within its material constituents, and this unique pattern, once established, remains not only unchanged until death, but even becomes sentient.
I don't see any problem with a consciousness, arising from a brain's function, remaining the "same" consciousness throughout that "same" brain's development. We* have no problem with the idea that the brain remains the same brain, although it develops, just as we have no problem with a river remaining the same river as its course gradually varies.

*Well, I have no such problem.
Assuming that a material pattern becomes sentient, is not only invoking strange magic, but is also preposterous to common sense.
You may find it preposterous, but I don't. Maybe you can explain precisely why you do, in a way we can all understand. It seems preposterous to me to construct an elaborate and entirely unevidenced story around magical things called psychons and then claim that this "explains" anything. The difference between our approaches boils down to the difference between "I don't know how that happens" and "I don't know how that happens, so I made up a fairy story".
As such a pattern (by definition) can only depend on material parts of the brain, an exact copy of your living body would result in a pattern, identical to the pattern in your brain. So the copy would the be same sentient subject as you are.
Non sequitur. Why do you believe that an exact copy of any thing must somehow be that same thing?
Another puzzle within reductionist materialism: how can such emerging patterns become so individual, that they are separated from each other by unbridgeable distances?
It's the same "puzzle", isn't it? You are still fixed on the idea that if consciousness arises from brain activity then similar brains would share one consciousness. Who believes that?

Unfortunately, I think you're going to have to develop a much more rigorous model explaining how you think consciousness could arise from brain activity before you can demonstrate that identical brains would therefore share a single mind. Good luck with that.
 
Max Planck phrased it that way: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."


Robert Park phrased it this way: "that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment is not enough for you to wear the mantle of Galileo: You must also be right.”


In principle every unprejudiced person with a certain intelligence would be able to recognize this fact. Yet there is an evolutionary obstacle: our species has evolved in such a way that it hasn't normally been necessary to change one's world view radically within one life.

Just out of curiosity, how many intelligent, unprejudiced people have you already convinced?
 
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