Deeper than primes

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Bolding mine.


Ah yes the infinite ability of abstraction, with the added bonus of actual physical applications. We can calculate the magnitude and direction of a single vector at some point and the results of a vector field in some space. One of the results of which is our modern technological society.

Inherent in Vector Calculus are the perspectives of the infinite:
The view from the finite out toward the infinite (Fine to say we cannot see the vanishing point.).
And the view from the infinite back at the finite.
You might even say there's an "interaction" of these two abstract directions.

Yes, there are fruitful applications far beyond what Mayans could do with knots on strings.
 
Wrong interpretation. Collection, whether is is finite or not, does not need any activity. It simply a complex that can't be an atom.
Bolding mine.

Interesting.
It suggests an infinite collection.
An infinite complex, even.
Where would such a notion take us?
 
The first arbitrary point is a source for some other point but not a target of any other point if the collection along the closed curve is infinite.

What other point is it a source for “ if the collection along the closed curve is infinite”? If you should find one then look in the other direction you will find a similar point that must be a source for your “first arbitrary point”.


Since you disagree with this simple fact, then please show how the first arbitrary point is also a target of some other point even if the collection along the closed curve is infinite.

I disagree with it simply because it is not a fact. You are deliberately ignoring the infinite number of points to start your “game”, but try evoking it to claim that it can not be completed.

Worng.

Once I strat it, the first point is a source for another point but it is not a target for another point if the collection of points along the closed curve is infinite.

Fine then identify the first point you come to that your “first arbitrary point is a source for” in order to start your game? If you can not identify a target for your “first arbitrary point” then it simply is not a source.

This is a fact exactly because there is always a target point (which is not the first point) along the curve, which blocks the first point from being a target for some source point (which is not the first point) if the collection is infinite.

There is always a “target point (which is not the first point)” and also not your first, second, third, …. selected target point “which blocks the first point from being” the source of any selected target point. The very aspect that you try to evoke to keep your “game” from being completed in fact prevents you from starting.

Still based on your requirements all we have to do is show that for ever possible source point there is possible target point and thus every point is then both a source and a target. Meaning the collection of sources has the same cardinality as the collection of targets. Your claim is that the collection of points is infinite and similarly that the collection of sources is infinite, but the collection of targets is just less by one. So tell us Doron how subtracting one element from an infinite collection suddenly makes its cardinality finite or just not infinite? A slight reversal from your previous conundrum, but you still end up with essentially the same conundrum. My recommendation was that you make better assertions not just make assertions that leave you in the same predicament with slightly reversed conditions. Your entire argument this time is simply based on your deliberate ignorance of the fact that if your “first arbitrary point is a source for some other point” it is also the target of a similar point in the opposite direction along your “closed curve”.


Your inability to get this fact is resulted by the illusion that there is a satisfied sum for an infinite collection.


There is a “satisfied sum for an infinite collection”, the sum of all real numbers (or all integers) is 0, the additive identity. Any time you add 0 to a value you might as well be adding all real numbers or all integers to that value (ain’t real math grand).
 
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The Man said:
I disagree with it simply because it is not a fact. You are deliberately ignoring the infinite number of points to start your “game”,...
It is a fact, and the game's start has nothing to do with the amount of the players if cardinality > 0.

The Man said:
Your entire argument this time is simply based on your deliberate ignorance of the fact that if your “first arbitrary point is a source for some other point” it is also the target of a similar point in the opposite direction along your “closed curve”.

What other point is it a source for “ if the collection along the closed curve is infinite”? If you should find one then look in the other direction you will find a similar point that must be a source for your “first arbitrary point”.

No you can't, because there is another target point (which is not the first point) for that source point, etc … ad infinituum.

What happened to your notion of "between any pair of points there is another point"?

The Man said:
There is always a “target point (which is not the first point)” and also not your first, second, third, …. selected target point “which blocks the first point from being” the source of any selected target point. The very aspect that you try to evoke to keep your “game” from being completed in fact prevents you from starting.

Wrong.

The first point is a target for another point only if the cardinality of the collection of points along the closed curve is > 1 AND finite.

If the cardinality is infinite, then the first point is NOT a target for another point along the closed curve (and as we have shown, the closed curve is the playground even if no player is found along it).

There is a “satisfied sum for an infinite collection”, the sum of all real numbers (or all integers) is 0, the additive identity. Any time you add 0 to a value you might as well be adding all real numbers or all integers to that value (ain’t real math grand).
No The Man.

It is true only if the cardinality of the summed numbers is satisfied.

Since I clearly show that the cardinality of an infinite collection (of numbers, in this particular case) is not satisfied, then also the sum is not satisfied.

You simply can't grasp the incomplete nature of an infinite collection, and instead you force on it a result that is based on a finite case of -x + x operation, infinitely many times.
 
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Bolding mine.

Interesting.
It suggests an infinite collection.
An infinite complex, even.
Where would such a notion take us?

To finite\infinite extrapolation\interpolation, as one of the basic properties of Complexity.
 
It is a fact, and the game's start has nothing to do with the amount of the players if cardinality > 0.


So you are deliberately ignoring the infinite number of points to start your “game”, as I said.

Thank You.

Game Over.

Please insert more quarters and play again.




No you can't, because there is another target point (which is not the first point) for that source point, etc … ad infinituum. What happened to your notion of "between any pair of points there is another point"?

Nothing, that’s why you can not identify a target for your “first arbitrary point” and your “game” can never start. The very same aspect you are depending upon to keep your “first arbitrary point” from being a target also keeps it from being a source. So the set of sources remains the same as the set of targets.


Thank You.

Game Over.

Please insert more quarters and play again.





Wrong.

The first point is a target for another point only if the cardinality of the collection of points along the closed curve is > 1 AND finite.

Again should you identify a target for your “first arbitrary point”, in the infinite collection, then in the opposite direction along your “closed curve” there is a similar point that has your “first arbitrary point” as a target. That fact does not change simply because you want or need it to just so you can ignorantly claim your “first arbitrary point” is not a target.

Again please show us how removing one element from your infinite collection of sources suddenly makes that collection finite or simply not infinite.

Once again you are trying to depend upon an ordering distinction, specifically between a source and a target. A target is just a source in reverse order, so any point that can be a target must also be a source. Particularly since you have previously claimed no ordering distinctions along your “closed curve”


Thank You.

Game Over.

Please insert more quarters and play again.



If the cardinality is infinite, then the first point is a target for another point along the closed curve (where as we have shown, the closed curve is the playground event if no player is found along it).

Wait, now you’re claiming “If the cardinality is infinite, then the first point is a target for another point along the closed curve” so again…


Thank You.

Game Over.

Please insert more quarters and play again.
 
The sum of an infinite number of finite lengths is not satisfied, and my S\T game clearly shows it.


Your game is yet another in a long list of stupid analogies. You have yet again "verbed" something into a process in a feeble attempt to make a point.

The pairings don't need to be carried out as a sequence of operations. I can make a rule of how points should be paired or not paired, and apply the rule. I don't need to wait for an infinite number of steps to be applied to an infinite number of pairs to arrive at my final result.

You also need to stop trying to make infinite collections behave just like finite collections. They are different; they are allowed to be have differently. (It is meaningless to ask if the cardinality of an infinite set is even or odd, for example. Yet, that is what your stupid analogy attempts to resolve.)

Regardless, your analogy fails.
 
So you are deliberately ignoring the infinite number of points to start your “game”, as I said.

You can start the game if cardinality is > 0.

Wait, now you’re claiming “If the cardinality is infinite, then the first point is a target for another point along the closed curve” so again…
You are not updated The Man, please read my post again.
 
I don't need to wait for an infinite number of steps to be applied to an infinite number of pairs to arrive at my final result.

You and The Man simply can't get it, isn't it jsfisher?

There are infinitely many distinct pairs of R members (for example: a distinct pair of -x + x for each point along the closed curve) to get some result (0, in this case) but it does not mean that the infinite collection of distinct pairs is complete, and it is incomplete exactly because the cardinality of this collection is not satisfied, as clearly shown in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5557004&postcount=8204.

You also need to stop trying to make infinite collections behave just like finite collections.
Indeed the cardinality of an infinite collection is not satisfied, where the cardinality of a finite collection is satisfied.

(It is meaningless to ask if the cardinality of an infinite set is even or odd, for example. Yet, that is what your stupid analogy attempts to resolve.)
It is not even or odd, it simply not satisfied. You are the one who force on an infinite collection concepts like odd or even, which are taken from finite collections that have satisfied cardinalities.

Again you demonstrate that you have no understanding of infinite collections.
 
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You can start the game if cardinality is > 0.

Again

Fine then identify the first point you come to that your “first arbitrary point is a source for” in order to start your game? If you can not identify a target for your “first arbitrary point” then it simply is not a source.

Also again, if your “first arbitrary point” can be a source for some point then it must also be a target of that point (reverse ordering) or a target of a similar point in the opposite direction along your “closed curve” .

Again

The very same aspect you are depending upon to keep your “first arbitrary point” from being a target also keeps it from being a source. So the set of sources remains the same as the set of targets.



You are not updated The Man, please read my post again.

You have been duly advised that I will neither read nor respond to your surreptitious edits. If you have added anything to that post that you would like me to read or respond to, you will have to repost those changes. Better yet, when you make changes or additions just indicate them at that time.
 
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You and The Man simply can't get it, isn't it jsfisher?

There are infinitely many distinct pairs of R members (for example: a distinct pair of -x + x for each point along the closed curve) to get some result (0, in this case) but it does not mean that the infinite collection of distinct pairs is complete, and it is incomplete exactly because the cardinality of this collection is not satisfied, as clearly shown in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5557004&postcount=8204.


Indeed the cardinality of an infinite collection is not satisfied, where the cardinality of a finite collection is satisfied.


It is not even or odd, it simply not satisfied. You are the one who force on an infinite collection concepts like odd or even, which are taken from finite collections that have satisfied cardinalities.

Again you demonstrate that you have no understanding of infinite collections.

Doron just because your understanding of cardinality is unsatisfactory does not infer that “the cardinality of this collection is not satisfied”. In fact it simply asserts that you are just claiming you have no basis to refer to the collection as “infinitely many distinct pairs of R members” as your understanding of that infinite “cardinality of this collection is not satisfied”
 
The Man said:
Also again, if your “first arbitrary point” can be a source for some point then it must also be a target of that point (reverse ordering)
In that case you get a closed curve with two points along it.

The Man said:
or a target of a similar point in the opposite direction along your “closed curve” .
It is false if the there is an infinite collection of points along the closed curve, exactly because between any given pair there is at least another point as a target, that prevents the ability of the first point from being a target ad infinituum.


Thank you The Man by providing the necessary evidence, which clearly demonstrates your inability to understand the real nature of infinite collection.
 
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The Man said:
Doron just because your understanding of cardinality is unsatisfactory does not infer that “the cardinality of this collection is not satisfied”. In fact it simply asserts that you are just claiming you have no basis to refer to the collection as “infinitely many distinct pairs of R members” as your understanding of that infinite “cardinality of this collection is not satisfied”
No The Man.

The very nature of an infinite collection is its incompleteness, so its cardinality is not satisfied.

Since your abstraction ability of this subject is limited, you simply force on an infinite collection notions that are taken from a finite collection.

Jsfisher and you are on the same limited boat, in this case.
 
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In that case you get a closed curve with two points along it.

Nope, that a source becomes a target in reverse ordering places no such limitation on the number of points (sources and targets) being considered. Don't worry Doron I didn't think you would actually understand the point anyway. Not that it matters much your requirement for a "closed curve" dictates that your “first arbitrary point” is both a source and a target , if it isn’t a target of any point along your “curve“ then your “curve” simply is not “closed”.
 
No The Man.

The very nature of an infinite collection is its incompleteness, so its cardinality is not satisfied.


No Doron it is simply you that is not satisfied even just with what you call an “infinite collection” yourself.


Since your abstraction ability of this subject is limited, you simply force on an infinite collection notions that are taken from a finite collection.

No Doron you simply want to claim that an infinite collection is incomplete without being able to show that anything is missing from the collection so you simply try to redefine complete to mean not infinite. Also, as above, you claim a collection as infinite yet assert “its cardinality is not satisfied”, again simply claiming you have no basis to describe that collection as infinite. Again “abstraction ability” doesn’t mean you just making up whatever self contradictory nonsensical gibberish you want.


Jsfisher and you are on the same limited boat, in this case.


Your boat is just full of holes Doron
 
The Man said:
No Doron you simply want to claim that an infinite collection is incomplete without being able to show that anything is missing from the collection ...
Nothing omited, and never complete?
Please do not limit your understanding of an infinite collection to any particular class.

In order to avoid this limitation please think about a collection where the number of classes is the same as the number of the elements.

By this generalization of the concept of collection, a concept like "missing" has no meaning.
 
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Nope, that a source becomes a target in reverse ordering places no such limitation on the number of points (sources and targets) being considered.

You simply can't grasp the right diagram of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5545541&postcount=8177:

4299700185_68a31d979e_o.jpg


By using your reverse ordering, the first point becomes a source fore more than a one target.

In that case you do not follow rule (2) of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5553203&postcount=8194 :

2) The players are points, such that each point is a source of one and only one target along the closed curve.
 
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The Man said:
Again “abstraction ability” doesn’t mean you just making up whatever self contradictory nonsensical gibberish you want.
Things are self contradictory nonsensical gibberish only under your limited notion of an infinite collection that is closed under the notion of class.
 
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I believe you know Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor).

The beauty of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5553203&postcount=8194 game is that we need one and only one collection (it is done inherently in some given collection, without any comparison with the members of another collection) in order to rigorously understand the difference between a finite and an infinite collection.

The difference is very simple by following the rules of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5553203&postcount=8194:

A non-empty collection is finite if the first entinity is also a target of some entity of that collection.

A non-empty collection is infinite if the first entinity is not a target of some entity of that collection.
 
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Exactly, Doron just wants to claim that his missing target makes it incomplete, but he just keeps missing that target as his insistence on a “closed curve” makes it complete.

You simply can't grasp that there is a playground with no players along it (cardinality 0 of the game, exactly as the empty set is a playground for 0 players).
 
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You do not follow rule (2) of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5553203&postcount=8194 :

2) The players are points, such that each point is a source of one and only one target along the closed curve.

Yes I did, that’s why I put in the "or".


Please do not limit your understanding of an infinite collection to any particular class.

In order to avoid this limitation please think about a collection where the number of classes is the same as the number of the elements.

Who said anything about a particular “class”


By this generalization of the concept of collection, a concept like "missing" has no meaning.

Fine now everything is complete since “a concept like "missing" has no meaning and your sources are not “missing” your “first arbitrary” point as a target.


You simply can't grasp the right diagram of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5545541&postcount=8177:

[qimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4299700185_68a31d979e_o.jpg[/qimg]

By using your reverse ordering, the first point becomes a source fore more than a one target.

In that case you do not follow rule (2) of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5553203&postcount=8194 :

2) The players are points, such that each point is a source of one and only one target along the closed curve.

Nope reverse ordering simply changes a source to a target and a target to a source. It certainly does not increase the number a targets for any given source. What is does do is belie your ordering distinction between a source and a target that you try to maintain as a hidden assumption to assert that your “first arbitrary” point is a source but not a target.


Things are self contradictory nonsensical gibberish only under your limited notion of an infinite collection that is closed under the notion of class.

No they are self contradictory nonsensical gibberish only because that is what you write. Perhaps that might be different if you had actually taken a few basic classes in math instead of just copying some kindergarten class.
 
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Please do not limit your understanding of an infinite collection to any particular class.

In order to avoid this limitation please think about a collection where the number of classes is the same as the number of the elements.

By this generalization of the concept of collection, a concept like "missing" has no meaning.

Good, I'm getting back to what I thought you meant by an "infinite collection" earlier. "Infinite" meaning it can never be complete, because the items to be collected have no common class. A collection of Beetle's record albums is finite, because it's merely of a single class of items. A record can be missing from the collection, and the collector may pay a premium price to fill that gap.

But when speaking of the infinite, all classes and groups must be abandoned.
Each item is a class by itself, a totally unique thing.
The collection is a grab bag of whatever I chuck into it, and since the contents aren't defined by common classes, the collecting isn't missing any item, while at the same time, no item can be excluded from it.
Nothing missing and nothing excluded, hence Doron Infinite.

Now if the Real Numbers are thought of as instances of a class of objects, a class exclusion takes place, a limitation, even if it's claimed that the the items in the class are 'infinite." Class prevents there being the open inclusion you mean for the Infinite.

Organic Numbers are each one a unique thing, at least in their non-local or parallel aspect. If you take them collectively, there is no defined class that prevents other unique individual numbers from being included, hence they are an infinite, but not complete, collection.

"Infinite" here means open and nonexclusive.

Mathematics for most everyone here is a manipulation of quantities of defined classes. Every mathematician asks you for definitions based on class identity. They also ask you for mathematical formulas.

But it's like their asking you for something unnatural.
You feel this this class based thinking limiting and tyrannical.
It's not the way you naturally think.
What strange animals we are to you.

And I must agree with you that analytical thinking is an inappropriate framework for questions of ethics and interpersonal relations.

All of us here experience and use non-linear thinking in various aspects of our lives.
But no one else I've read has thought to systematize non-linear thinking in a kind of mathematical-like framework.
I doubt non-linear thinking can be so formulaic. Care, respect, empathy aren't matters of calculation for me. And I don't feel I need to regard numbers as individuals instead of quantities to overcome my prejudices.
 
Yes I did, that’s why I put in the "or".
No The Man, rule (2) is xor.

The Man said:
Fine now everything is complete since “a concept like "missing" has no meaning and your sources are not “missing” your “first arbitrary” point as a target.
It was my answer to Apathia about his limitation to some class. Since we are not limited to any particular class, then "missing by class" has no meaning. Missing has a meaning only beyond class, if the first point is not a target to another point along an infinite collection.

The Man said:
Nope reverse ordering simply changes a source to a target and a target to a source. It certainly does not increase the number a targets for any given source. What is does do is belie your ordering distinction between a source and a target that you try to maintain as a hidden assumption to assert that your “first arbitrary” point is a source but not a target.
Changing order has no influence on the completeness of incompleteness of a given collection. You still do not grasp rule (2) because you are using "or" instead of "xor".

EDIT: You still do not get the right diagram in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5564918&postcount=8227, which violates rule (2) because the first point is a source for more than one target along the closed curve.

The Man said:
No they are self contradictory nonsensical gibberish only because that is what you write. Perhaps that might be different if you had actually taken a few basic classes in math instead of just copying some kindergarten class.
It is self contradictory nonsensical gibberish exactly because your notions are closed under what you have learned in your Math classes.
 
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Good, I'm getting back to what I thought you meant by an "infinite collection" earlier. "Infinite" meaning it can never be complete, because the items to be collected have no common class. A collection of Beetle's record albums is finite, because it's merely of a single class of items. A record can be missing from the collection, and the collector may pay a premium price to fill that gap.

But when speaking of the infinite, all classes and groups must be abandoned.
Each item is a class by itself, a totally unique thing.
The collection is a grab bag of whatever I chuck into it, and since the contents aren't defined by common classes, the collecting isn't missing any item, while at the same time, no item can be excluded from it.
Nothing missing and nothing excluded, hence Doron Infinite.

Now if the Real Numbers are thought of as instances of a class of objects, a class exclusion takes place, a limitation, even if it's claimed that the the items in the class are 'infinite." Class prevents there being the open inclusion you mean for the Infinite.

Organic Numbers are each one a unique thing, at least in their non-local or parallel aspect. If you take them collectively, there is no defined class that prevents other unique individual numbers from being included, hence they are an infinite, but not complete, collection.

"Infinite" here means open and nonexclusive.

Mathematics for most everyone here is a manipulation of quantities of defined classes. Every mathematician asks you for definitions based on class identity. They also ask you for mathematical formulas.

But it's like their asking you for something unnatural.
You feel this this class based thinking limiting and tyrannical.
It's not the way you naturally think.
What strange animals we are to you.

And I must agree with you that analytical thinking is an inappropriate framework for questions of ethics and interpersonal relations.

All of us here experience and use non-linear thinking in various aspects of our lives.
But no one else I've read has thought to systematize non-linear thinking in a kind of mathematical-like framework.
I doubt non-linear thinking can be so formulaic. Care, respect, empathy aren't matters of calculation for me. And I don't feel I need to regard numbers as individuals instead of quantities to overcome my prejudices.

1) By generalization, the same principle of incompleteness holds, whether the number of classes < or = to the number of the elements of some infinite collection.

2) As for care, respect, empathy etc … they are understood by Complexity's development, which is complete or incomplete by nature.
 
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The failure to grasp is not zooterkin's. You still do not get any part of Mathematics, doron. Not any part at all.

You have no ability to distinguish between the atomic and the complex.

As a result what is called by you Mathematics, is limited to notions that are taken from the finite or the local, and forced on the infinite or the non-local.


Your inability to grasp http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5561041&postcount=8211 clearly demonstrates how poor is your school of thought.
 
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You have no ability to distinguish between the atomic and the complex.

As a result what is called by you Mathematics, is limited to notions that are taken from the finite and the local, and forced on the infinite and the non-local.


Nonsense. You just make stuff up without regard to consistency or utility. Your entire "life's work" is ridiculous tripe devoid of any meaning or value.

If what I write were not true, you'd be able to produce something useful, but instead you merely wander aimlessly in circles telling lies and uttering gibberish.
 
Nonsense. You just make stuff up without regard to consistency or utility. Your entire "life's work" is ridiculous tripe devoid of any meaning or value.

If what I write were not true, you'd be able to produce something useful, but instead you merely wander aimlessly in circles telling lies and uttering gibberish.

Complexity and what enables it is the future of the mathematical science.

Your school of thought (deductive context-dependent frameworks) is a dead end, which is not a part of that future.
 
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1) By generalization, the same principle of incompleteness holds, whether the number of classes < or = to the number of the elements of some infinite collection.

2) As for care, respect, empathy etc … they are understood by Complexity's development, which is complete or incomplete by nature.

So lets review the "infinite collection" of Doron Infinity.
It consists of unique and distinct elements that are not grouped or classed by any common, conceptual identity or definition. Since it contains only elements that are distinct, one of a kind, there is nothing omitted from the collection, hence its infinitude.

There's never a complete infinitude of individual, distinct, concrete things.
There is only the openness of nonexclusive infinitude; that other uniques can always be added.

And especially when classifications are made, there can be no completion, because what may be classed together severly excludes all else that isn't.

In a previous post I drew distinctions between kinds of infinity.
Potential, Mathematical, Absolute.
I see now I need to add a fourth:
Doron Infinity: the limitless, non-exclusive openness that is present when elements are not collected by conceptual classifications.

This is not a mathematical infinity concerned with quantity or how many elements there are in a class.
Doron is simply not seeing things in that way.
His primary focus isn't on manipulating quantities of classes of things, but stacking up, in an ever more complex fractal, individual, unique things.

When he redefines "cardinality" as a "measure of existence," that should in itself be cue enough that he's talking about an entirely different animal.

It's certainly not a "deductive context-dependent framework."
 
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Complexity and what enables it is the future of the mathematical science.

Yes, you have said nonsense like this before. Still no substance to your claim. Your approach has no future in mathematics. Your approach isn't mathematics.

Your school of thought (deductive context-dependent frameworks) is a dead end, which is not a part of that future.

I see you are still trying to perpetuate that same lie. Give it up. Besides, mathematics -- completely without your help -- continues to work just fine, solving real problems in a consistent way without too many contradictions.

Your approach, on the other hand, still has nothing to offer except contradictions. Nothing.
 
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