Split Thread Barbra Streisand, Sean Penn, truthers?

If some new, standard, twoof troll came by here and said the exact same thing that Babas is saying, they'd be branded a LIHOP'er lickety split. Where's the standards here?
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No we would ask her what she thought had really happened and would judge her on her reply. Her statements imply incompetance not evil intent.
very few would say that any branch of the US gov. acted competently on 911 but thats a huge step from it being a LIHOP

If we start making up "facts" we are as bad as the truthers.
 
Seymour Butz said:
Oh c'mon now....

If some new, standard, twoof troll came by here and said the exact same thing that Babas is saying, they'd be branded a LIHOP'er lickety split. Where's the standards here?
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johnny karate said:
As many of you know, we have been inundated with CTers lately come here to with their "just asking questions" smoke screen.

However, we seem to have contracted a new strain of CTer, more virulent and tenacious than any previous incarnations.

This new strain seems to delight in ignoring their own contradictions and inconsistencies, and any inconvenient counter arguments and direct questions. They simply post and repost the same baseless assertions over and over again.
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johnny karate brands anyone who even asks "questions about 911" as a "CTer." Babs doesn't even employ some "smoke screen" hiding her true motives and yet her 911 bilge somehow excuses her from the LIHOPer label.
 
sheeplesnshills said:
No we would ask her what she thought had really happened and would judge her on her reply. Her statements imply incompetance not evil intent.
very few would say that any branch of the US gov. acted competently on 911 but thats a huge step from it being a LIHOPIf we start making up "facts" we are as bad as the truthers.
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That doesn't jibe with the troothers POV. The troothers accept Babs POV as being in concert with their own.

"...diverts the truth movement away from its unified belief that 9/11 was not properly prevented, investigated, and explained or that government officials, insiders and unknown guilty parties were never held accountable or reprimanded.”

http://activistnyc.wordpress.com/2007/11/07/lihop-vs-mihop/

Babs comments echo The Truth Movement's charges.
 
Cicero said:
What? Sure she does. Bush, after being informed of the attack on WTC, should have shot down FL 77, killing all aboard, so it would have saved the lives of those killed in The Pentagon. How would Babs suppose Bush could give an order to shoot down some unknown commercial airliner whose destination was unknown?
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BUSH WAS INACTIVE AND INDECISIVE FOR A FULL 7 MINUTES THE MORNING OF 9/11 WHEN INFORMED OF THE ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER. IF BUSH HAD ACTED QUICKLY AND INTELLIGENTLY PERHAPS HE COULD HAVE GIVEN AN ORDER TO SHOOT DOWN THE PLANE HEADED TOWARD THE PENTAGON AND SAVED THE LIVES OF THOSE WHO WERE KILLED
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Still not entirely conclusive. They knew what flights were off course at that point, even without foreknowledge it's conceivable that she believes something could have been done to prevent it without Babs believing that Bush knew weeks or months beforehand what was going to happen.


Seymour Butz said:
Oh c'mon now....

If some new, standard, twoof troll came by here and said the exact same thing that Babas is saying, they'd be branded a LIHOP'er lickety split. Where's the standards here?
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Well, on an internet forum we have the privilege of asking someone to clarify their beliefs. With Babs, all we have are a couple of quotes. I'd say that all evidence points to crazy, but her quotes alone aren't conclusive enough (in my view) to pin her as a LIHOPer.
 
Cicero said:
That doesn't jibe with the troothers POV. The troothers accept Babs POV as being in concert with their own.

"...diverts the truth movement away from its unified belief that 9/11 was not properly prevented, investigated, and explained or that government officials, insiders and unknown guilty parties were never held accountable or reprimanded.”

http://activistnyc.wordpress.com/2007/11/07/lihop-vs-mihop/

Babs comments echo The Truth Movement's charges.
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No, they don't, and it's classic truther equivocation to claim that they do. People who claim that the US government carried out the 9/11 attacks cannot possibly also claim that the US government was incompetent in allowing the attacks to happen. They like to pretend, however, that these utterly incompatible claims are identical, in order to pretend support exists for their movement when and where it does not. It's as delusional and confused as every other aspect of their thinking.

Dave
 
Dave Rogers said:
No, they don't, and it's classic truther equivocation to claim that they do. People who claim that the US government carried out the 9/11 attacks cannot possibly also claim that the US government was incompetent in allowing the attacks to happen. They like to pretend, however, that these utterly incompatible claims are identical, in order to pretend support exists for their movement when and where it does not. It's as delusional and confused as every other aspect of their thinking.

Dave
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You just now managed to figure out troother woo? Babs does not think being called a troother, or being associated with The Truth Movement, is a pejorative or a character flaw. Mr. Streisand is a troother and Babs doesn't feel obliged to distance herself from his comments anymore than he does hers.
 
willhaven said:
Still not entirely conclusive. They knew what flights were off course at that point, even without foreknowledge it's conceivable that she believes something could have been done to prevent it without Babs believing that Bush knew weeks or months beforehand what was going to happen.


Well, on an internet forum we have the privilege of asking someone to clarify their beliefs. With Babs, all we have are a couple of quotes. I'd say that all evidence points to crazy, but her quotes alone aren't conclusive enough (in my view) to pin her as a LIHOPer.
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Conclusive in a court of law? Based on JREFer standards of labeling faceless others, who have expressed the same opinions on this forum, as troothers, she meets and exceeds the standard.
 
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In your opinion anyway. I find her statements alone to be inconclusive and I think you're reading a lot into them when coming to a conclusion.

Given that her husband is a truther, I figure she probably is. It's not a given, but it's quite likely. My father is a truther and my mother isn't. I have to avoid the topic with my father now. There's no talking sense with him.
 
willhaven said:
In your opinion anyway. I find her statements alone to be inconclusive and I think you're reading a lot into them when coming to a conclusion.

Given that her husband is a truther, I figure she probably is. It's not a given, but it's quite likely. My father is a truther and my mother isn't. I have to avoid the topic with my father now. There's no talking sense with him.
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Sure it is my opinion, but more to the point, it is the opinion of the troothers who include her comments on their websites and call her one of their own.
 
Cicero said:
Conclusive in a court of law? Based on JREFer standards of labeling faceless others, who have expressed the same opinions on this forum, as troothers, she meets and exceeds the standard.
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And yet you stated, "Barbra Streisand and Sean Penn have proclaimed 9/11 to be an inside job." (My bold.)

Twist and spin all you like, but you, in your charming right-wingy way, got it wrong. Faced with this, you, an anonymous forum entity, can't bring yourself to admitting error (while bleating on about the inaccuracies of those you oppose).

The human ego is an amazing thing.
 
Cicero said:
Sure it is my opinion, but more to the point, it is the opinion of the troothers who include her comments on their websites and call her one of their own.
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Truthers: known for their uncanny ability to use only the most rock solid evidence to support their theories.
 
Cicero said:
<snipped> (quoted for reference post)
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I don't think the quotes represent much more than his ultra creepy partisan woo. The truth movement is notorious for taking any derogatory stance against Bush or anything relating to 9/11 and him as "support for their causes" so don't be shocked if some of those notions at least are half truths at best. :\

Penn IS on record however for claiming that
the Bush administration was fascist and advocating jail time for people who call Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez a dictator. These are sentiments shared by many conspiracy theorists who also believe 9/11 to be an inside job, and even without supporting 9/11 truth directly he may be associating with their members on that basis. :\

I think the guy's a creep; but then, being vulgar and conspiratorial isn't limited to the 9/11 truther movement either.
 
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What I don't understand is why truthers think having any celebrity woven into their organization gives their mantras more credibility. You'd think they'd want scientists, engineers and experts in related fields on their side...not politically motivated washed up has-beens or never-were's. What truther's don't seem to grasp is that it's not how many you have in your camp, but how many in your camp can provide evidence that negates the current evidence. Hell, you could have 90% of the worlds population think that 9/11 was an inside job...but if the other 10% can prove that 90% percent wrong with scientific proof and evidence...what good is having that number on your side?
 
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Anyone have original press sources for the Streisand statements?
I looked, but just found some truther websites and this thread....:(
 
I don't much like Babs...a lot of California Democrats don't, since she is a pain in the butt with her pretensions at being a major player in California Politics....but I see no evidence she is a Truther,although her Husband is one Big Time; if fact he is only second to Charlie Sheen as the "go to" celeb for The Twoofers.
As for Penn, I would not be surprised,but there is no proof. Although his praising Chavez for imprisoning oppostion members was so stupid that even a number of Penn's fellow Radiblib celebs are criticising him for his rant on the BIll Maher show.
 
Regnad Kcin said:
And yet you stated, "Barbra Streisand and Sean Penn have proclaimed 9/11 to be an inside job." (My bold.)

Twist and spin all you like, but you, in your charming right-wingy way, got it wrong. Faced with this, you, an anonymous forum entity, can't bring yourself to admitting error (while bleating on about the inaccuracies of those you oppose).

The human ego is an amazing thing.
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Can you link to my original quote?

I have no problem admitting error and have done so on JREF. Babs being a LIHOPer (which is one who believes Bush didn't act out of incompetence, indifference, or malevolence) qualifies her as one who embraces the notion that 911 was "an inside job."

"...diverts the truth movement away from its unified belief that 9/11 was not properly prevented, investigated, and explained or that government officials, insiders and unknown guilty parties were never held accountable or reprimanded.”

Penn supports the Truth Movement. Why would he support them if he didn't believe Bush43 was responsible for 911?

BTW: Why has Babs and Penn being part of the Truth Movement effected you in such an emotional way? Do you go on troother sights and demand their names be stricken from their posted list of 911 Truthers? How far would you go to try to protect these two from the label of troofer when they themselves are fine with it?
 
alienentity said:
Anyone have original press sources for the Streisand statements?
I looked, but just found some truther websites and this thread....:(
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If you don't believe Babs' own comments make her a LIHOPer, why would seeing the original source change your opinion? The fact you can't find her own website doesn't say much for your search skills.
 
Cicero said:
Sure it is my opinion, but more to the point, it is the opinion of the troothers who include her comments on their websites and call her one of their own.
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This is, let's remember, the movement which has claimed that its supporters include at least one person who died on 9/11. The fact that a bunch of delusional idiots think someone supports them is hardly compelling evidence of anything, given that they will happily claim that people who describe them as delusional idiots are also covertly supporting them. You commented on my figuring out their woo; I'm afraid I can't offer the same in return. Once you start buying into their deliberate blurring of the boundaries between accusations of incompetence and accusations of complicity to give the impression their movement has support, you're lost.

Dave
 
Dave Rogers said:
This is, let's remember, the movement which has claimed that its supporters include at least one person who died on 9/11. The fact that a bunch of delusional idiots think someone supports them is hardly compelling evidence of anything, given that they will happily claim that people who describe them as delusional idiots are also covertly supporting them. You commented on my figuring out their woo; I'm afraid I can't offer the same in return. Once you start buying into their deliberate blurring of the boundaries between accusations of incompetence and accusations of complicity to give the impression their movement has support, you're lost.

Dave
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If making generally idiotic comments alone were a requisite for entry into the Truth Movement, Babs and Penn would automatically qualify.

It is self-serving on your part to want to separate those who blame Bush 43 for being responsible for 911 because he refused to stop the plot out of indifference from those who blame Bush because he refused to stop the plot out of malevolence. Both "accusations" produce the same conclusion; Bush 43 is responsible for those who died on 911.
 
No proclamations of inside job yet then? Just bring a statement to that effect and I will believe you.

Cicero said:
Sure it is my opinion, but more to the point, it is the opinion of the troothers who include her comments on their websites and call her one of their own.
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This is hilarious. You are now admitting to the same thought processes as some of the most idiotic nuggets on the planet.
 
Cicero said:
Both "accusations" produce the same conclusion; Bush 43 is responsible for those who died on 911.
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Thinking some of those people died on 911 because Bush was incompetent means you're a truther?

You realise how idiotic your argument is now don't you?
 
Cicero said:
If you don't believe Babs' own comments make her a LIHOPer, why would seeing the original source change your opinion? The fact you can't find her own website doesn't say much for your search skills.
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You do realize the link you posted to her website is a 404, right?

http://www.barbrastreisand.com/us/statements.html
Page not found
The requested page could not be found.
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Just saying it doesn't seem to be available where you think it is.
 
LIHOPer = "one who believes Bush didn't act out of incompetence, indifference, or malevolence", Cicero?

Really?
 
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Cicero - I did a phrase search, which should turn up the original source. It doesn't.
So, I ask again, can anyone provide an original source for the Babs quotes? Yes or no?

Revelation: according to Cicero's definition, I've discovered that I'm a 9/11 Truther, and a LIHOPer at that. Who knew? **** me....:jaw-dropp
 
Cicero said:
It is self-serving on your part to want to separate those who blame Bush 43 for being responsible for 911 because he refused to stop the plot out of indifference from those who blame Bush because he refused to stop the plot out of malevolence. Both "accusations" produce the same conclusion; Bush 43 is responsible for those who died on 911.
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You're making a great cheerleader for the truthers here. There are very few truthers who actually believe anything even as sane as LIHOP; some say they do, but scratch the surface and they usually start ranting about thermite, Global Hawks and NORAD stand-downs. Back in reality, though, the claim that the Bush administration could have done more to prevent the 9/11 attacks is almost irrefutable. The claim that they should have done more is sane, but highly debatable. The claim that they chose not to do more is completely unsupported by plausible evidence, and elevates their involvement from culpable negligence to outright complicity. It's either dishonest or absurdly silly to suggest that there is effectively no difference between the latter two accusations.

Dave
 
Dave Rogers said:
You're making a great cheerleader for the truthers here. There are very few truthers who actually believe anything even as sane as LIHOP; some say they do, but scratch the surface and they usually start ranting about thermite, Global Hawks and NORAD stand-downs. Back in reality, though, the claim that the Bush administration could have done more to prevent the 9/11 attacks is almost irrefutable. The claim that they should have done more is sane, but highly debatable. The claim that they chose not to do more is completely unsupported by plausible evidence, and elevates their involvement from culpable negligence to outright complicity. It's either dishonest or absurdly silly to suggest that there is effectively no difference between the latter two accusations.

Dave
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You finally grasped what Babs is saying about Bush 43.
 
funk de fino said:
No proclamations of inside job yet then? Just bring a statement to that effect and I will believe you.



This is hilarious. You are now admitting to the same thought processes as some of the most idiotic nuggets on the planet.
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I admit that the Truth Movement considers Babs and Penn truthers and provides examples of their trootherism. Are you denying they call them truthers?
 
Cicero, you've become ridiculous. Applying your logic, I'm now a LIHOP truther.

Nobody is denying that truthers are talking out of their rear ends. If they think Babs and Penn are truthers, who cares? They're usually wrong, aren't they?

You also made a really unsupportable and absurd caracature of criticisms as 'Bush 43 is responsible for those who died on 911'
That's bullcrap. It exposes you as a cheap polemicist. The frickin' hijackers are responsible for the 9/11 attacks and for the deaths, fool.
 
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alienentity said:
Cicero, you've become ridiculous. Applying your logic, I'm now a LIHOP truther.
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Are you? What is your 911 spin?

Nobody is denying that truthers are talking out of their rear ends. If they think Babs and Penn are truthers, who cares? They're usually wrong, aren't they?
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Wrong about everything except about recognizing fellow troothers.

You also made a really unsupportable and absurd caracature of criticisms as 'Bush 43 is responsible for those who died on 911'That's bullcrap. It exposes you as a cheap polemicist. The frickin' hijackers are responsible for the 9/11 attacks and for the deaths, fool.
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If you believe Bush 43 is responsible for those who died on 911 then you are a troother?
 
Cicero said:
Are you? What is your 911 spin?



Wrong about everything except about recognizing fellow troothers.



If you believe Bush 43 is responsible for those who died on 911 then you are a troother?
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No. As Commander-in-Chief, Bush was clearly responsible for the protection of people inside the U.S. on 9/11. He failed to protect them.

To meet the standards of LIHOP, one has to believe not only that 9-11 was a result of Bush's inaction, but also that this inaction was deliberate, with the intent of causing harm, not the result of indifference or incompetence.
It's incontrovertible evidence for Streisand's belief in the second part that you seem to be having trouble supplying.
It may well be that she believes it. but the statements by her I've read in this thread seem like standard Bush-bashing.
 
Where's the original statement from Streisand? So far it's MIA.

So is any statement from her that Bush is responsible for the 9/11 deaths.

Anyone found a linky for such statements?
 
Cicero said:
johnny karate brands anyone who even asks "questions about 911" as a "CTer." Babs doesn't even employ some "smoke screen" hiding her true motives and yet her 911 bilge somehow excuses her from the LIHOPer label.
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You seem to have some personal investment in "proving" Streisand and Penn are truthers or in "proving" lefty entertainment celebrities are truthers... or maybe you just have too much free time on your hands.

I can guarantee you out here in the real world most sane adults don't care much about the political views of movie stars or look to celebrities for guidance on social or political issues.

Or are you just peeved by the low quality of celebrities the right wing attracts in this country?
 
Hmmm, so Babs wrote on her website that the Republicans were trying to spin the Bush admins failures, which is what she is really angry about:

'Before September 11th, Bush and his advisors did not pay enough attention to the possibility of a large-scale terrorist attack. Bush's National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice has said she could have never predicted such an attack, despite warnings of the French, Israeli and American intelligence communities. On August 6th, 2001, the CIA sent Bush a memo warning of possible al Qaeda plane hijackings. So why was there no increase in airport security, including reinforced bullet-proofed cockpits? At the time of the presidential transition, Clinton's National Security Advisor, Sandy Berger, made it very clear to Ms. Rice that her greatest concern should be Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda terrorism network. If that terrorism threat had remained a high level of priority in all levels of government, could these attacks have been prevented? We may never be able to answer that question. The purpose is not to assign blame but simply to point out that Republican leaders have not proved themselves to be more effective protectors of Homeland Security, as they would have the American people believe. '
http://www.barbrastreisand.com/es/statement/lies-are-finally-catching

There's Barbra's central point: to point out the spin of Republican leaders, as they pretended they were doing such a great job on National Security. She correctly points out the failures of the Bush admin to deal adequately with threats.

Nowhere can you find any indication that Ms. Streisand is accusing the Bush admin of deliberately allowing the attacks - therefore she is not outlining LIHOP at all.

the OP fails, decisively. This is simply not a case of LIHOP thinking, anymore than my own criticism of Bush is.
 
From:
http://www.barbrastreisand.com/us/statement/man-you-think-will-keep-you-safe

'Is This The Man You Think Will Keep You Safe?'
Includes 15 points of criticism.
Barbra's conclusion:
'IF BUSH HAD DONE ANY OF THESE THINGS, WE WOULD BE A SAFER MORE SECURE COUNTRY TODAY AND POSSIBLY COULD HAVE PREVENTED THE TRAGEDY OF 9/11. IS THIS THE MAN YOU THINK WILL KEEP YOU SAFE?...'

This is not LIHOP. She is questioning Bush's record at responding to advice, and expresses the opinion that the tragedy of 9/11 'possibly' could have been prevented.

Nowhere does she indicate that Bush and co deliberately allowed the 9/11 attacks.
She states the fact that Bush and co failed to prevent the attacks, but we all know that this is true, don't we? Duh.
That don't make you no truther, bubba.

The OP fails.

ETA: if you're going to quote mine, then at least provide links to the material:cool: , or source it properly so that it can be checked for context. I've provided links for all those quotes, read them in full.
 
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Cicero said:
johnny karate brands anyone who even asks "questions about 911" as a "CTer." Babs doesn't even employ some "smoke screen" hiding her true motives and yet her 911 bilge somehow excuses her from the LIHOPer label.
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You need to pay closer attention to what's happening. I never defended Penn or Streisand, nor claimed they aren't Truthers.

I merely pointed out that you hadn't made the case for them being Truthers based on your own standards of evidence established in the thread from which this one was split.

Apparently, you require a notarized statement of intent when a conservative says he intends to greet census workers with a shotgun to establish whether or not he intends them harm. Brandishing a weapon, of course, not being quite sufficient.

However, if a liberal criticizes the Bush administration for their failure to prevent 9/11, well then, that person is obviously a Truther. The fact that they never claimed to be a Truther, nor associated themselves with the Truth Movement, is irrelevant.

It's called ideological bias.

And you reek of it.
 
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Cicero said:
I admit that the Truth Movement considers Babs and Penn truthers and provides examples of their trootherism. Are you denying they call them truthers?
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How can they provide examples yet you have failed? You are not even up to their standards.

They can call them all they want. They also call Larry Silverstein a murderer, doesnt mean he is.

This is the worst fail ever from you.
 
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