Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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So how does a single coronal loop get to be millions of degrees ben?
Check out the references in my post here, MM, and the papers they cite, and the papers which are in turn cited. I think you'll find no shortage of answers! :D

Oh, to understand those papers, you need to be quite familiar with Alfvén's MHD, upside-down-triangly thingies, drunken letter d's, etc ... so perhaps you should go study plasma physics before you even try to understand them (just some friendly advice).
 
So run down Reality Check's list of 70+ questions and answer, "I don't know," to those which you can't answer. That is unless you consider ignorance an even better scientific approach than acknowledging that you don't know. :p

I predict this will be met with Michael's typical ignorance.

I doubt even half of the things on that list are actually valid questions or things I didn't cover already.
 
Whereas it's evidently fine to ignore all those CA/H images I posted for you that show massive mass flows up and through that layer? It's ok that you simply ignored that plasma filament shooting down the center of that "transparent' area in the middle of the sunspot that you claim is "opaque"? You guys simple ignore the visual evidence entirely ben!

You showed some 2D images with some loops on them. Then you invent, out of thin air, the idea that one part of the loop was below the photosphere and one part was above. I still have no idea what gave you that idea. Literally no idea. I look at the picture and ask myself, generously, "Is there any way that any human being could convince himself that there's an above/below feature here?" and the answer is "no".

You didn't "show me" loops going through the photosphere. You had some sort of a fever dream about such loops. The thing you "showed" appeared to be a photo of normal coronal loops, entirely above the photosphere.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD CLARIFY YOUR FEVER DREAMS, MICHAEL? CLICK THROUGH FOR THE SURPRISING ANSWER!




A DIAGRAM!

 
Actually your "dark energy" could be directly related.

No, it could not.

Is that because you *MADE UP* the idea that DE doesn't interact with gravitationally bound systems perhaps?

Your ignorance repeats itself. Dark energy does interact with gravitationally bound systems. There are other (rather obvious) reasons dark energy is irrelevant to solar models.

You only brought up dark energy because you failed so badly at your other attempts to justify your own model, so you needed to change the subject. Again, nobody is fooled.
 
Which one of them produced sustained solar wind from a sphere in a lab? Which one of them duplicated Birkeland's corona in a lab? Which one of them duplicated *ANY* of Birkeland's empirical predictions in a lab using "magnetic reconnection"? Which one?


Birkeland's looks-a-little-like-a-corona in the lab was nothing at all like the corona on the Sun. Not even close. You are talking about Kristian Birkeland, aren't you? The buffoon who thought the Sun was spewing atoms into space which coalesced into new planets? :D
 
No it's not. Not if you're going to apply your very own standards here...

More of you "civil" dialog I presume?

You guys can't explain something as simple as continuous solar wind and actually make it work in a lab. Not only has that been done already, so have almost all the things you can't figure out with a "non electric" solar model. Gee, I wonder why that might be?
 
Birkeland's looks-a-little-like-a-corona in the lab was nothing at all like the corona on the Sun. Not even close.

How do you know?

You are talking about Kristian Birkeland, aren't you? The buffoon who thought the Sun was spewing atoms into space which coalesced into new planets? :D

I can't believe you actually think that particles from the sun do no end up on Earth. How naive are you anyway?
 
The cathode part is really a given.
Curious, then, that the word appears only twice on your website, and neither instance is in the phrase "cathode solar model" (or ""cathode" solar model").

That's what makes the solar wind work DRD. Since you *REFUSE* to accept "current flow" in any form, it's still a great "mystery" to you, even though Birkeland "predicted" it 100 years ago. He simulated it too. You've yet to reproduce a single of his experiments with "magnetic reconnection" and you never will because that is pure "pseudoscience" according to the author the the MHD theory that you're kludging all to hell in an effort to avoid that dreaded "electricity'' word.
Would you like to count how many times the word "current" is used in the papers I've referenced?

Goodness, in the title alone I count four (out of six)!

But let's get back to your ""cathode" solar model" shall we?

Start with "from the sun": let's assume it's the cathode, i.e. the place to which electrons flow; let's also assume that the actual cathode is the photosphere, which is 700,000 km from the centre of the Sun (we can adjust the numbers a bit later).

Next, "to the heliosphere": let's assume this is the surface of a sphere, whose radius is 100 au, with the Sun at its centre.

Now in all ""electric universe" concepts" that I have seen, out there on the world-wide internet, the Sun is powered by a "current flow", so in this first ""cathode solar model"", the current must produce ~3.8 x 10^26 W, which is the observed power (energy per second) of the Sun.

How does the "current flow" produce this power? Let's assume it does so by converting the kinetic energy of the electrons into electromagnetic radiation, on (or at) the photosphere. We won't worry ourselves about how this happens ("electrical processes" perhaps), for now.

Let's keep it simple and assume that electrons arrive at the photosphere at the same rate as they leave the heliosphere - x electrons leave the heliosphere in one second, and x electrons arrive at the photosphere in one second. In other words, electrons are neither created nor destroyed between the heliosphere and photosphere, and that the current flow is a steady one.

So, how many electrons leave the heliosphere every second? Well, the electron density there is 10 million per cubic metre, and the electrons are moving at 6 million metres per second (again, we can adjust the numbers later), so across each square metre of heliosphere surface there will be 60 trillion electrons crossing every second. Now the heliosphere's surface is ~3 x 10^27 square metres, so 1.8 x 10^41 electrons depart for the photosphere every second.

How fast are these electrons moving when they reach the photosphere? Well, let's keep it very simple and use the physics of Birkeland's day; specifically the part of Newtonian physics which says that the kinetic energy of a body moving at speed v is half its mass times v squared. Now the mass of an electron is 9.1 x 10^-31 kg, and every second 1.8 x 10^41 electrons give up their kinetic energy for light. So we have a simple equation (Ne is the number of electrons, m the mass of an electron, and v its speed):

1/2 mv^2 * Ne = 3.8 x 10^26

which, when we plug in the numbers, gives us the speed of the electrons as 700 million metres per second.

Before I proceed to check this model against empirical reality (i.e. results of experiments in the lab), I'd like MM to check my model for any flaws, errors, shortcomings, etc.

Of course, every other JREF member reading this is more than welcome to do so too, but if you could, please limit your comments to any mistakes I may have made in my math.

I should add that I have developed this model using only the simplest formulae/math I could; in fact there's little here beyond arithmetic; some extremely simple algebra; the standard definitions of things like energy, power, and density; and the formula for kinetic energy.

Waiting, waiting, waiting ...
 
No, it could not.

Why not? How do you know?

Your ignorance repeats itself. Dark energy does interact with gravitationally bound systems.

You made that up! It's like me saying my magic elves do not interact with gravitationally bound systems. You created that "property" in a purely ad hoc manner! You can't justify that claim empirically.

There are other (rather obvious) reasons dark energy is irrelevant to solar models.

Such as? You can't figure out that acceleration of the solar wind. How do you know they aren't related? What is "dark energy" other than "acceleration" that you can't otherwise explain?

You only brought up dark energy because you failed so badly at your other attempts to justify your own model, so you needed to change the subject. Again, nobody is fooled.

No, I bring it up because I think they are directly related issues. You claim 70% of the universe is made of something that causes acceleration. I see an observation of acceleration you can't explain. How do you know that they are not related processes?
 
I can't believe you actually think that particles from the sun do no end up on Earth. How naive are you anyway?


I'm not the moron who thought atoms spewed off the Sun and coalesced into new planets. That would be your hero Birkeland. And of course I never said anything about particles from the Sun ending up on Earth. That's your very own made-for-the-purpose dishonest strawman.
 
Curious, then, that the word appears only twice on your website, and neither instance is in the phrase "cathode solar model" (or ""cathode" solar model").

How many times does it say "Birkeland solar model" DRD?

Would you like to count how many times the word "current" is used in the papers I've referenced?

The only thing I want to see you do is recreate either Birkeland's corona or that solar wind using "magnetic reconnection". Waiting,.....waiting.....waiting......
 
How many times does it say "Birkeland solar model" DRD?

The only thing I want to see you do is recreate either Birkeland's corona or that solar wind using "magnetic reconnection". Waiting,.....waiting.....waiting......


Well, good, all this intentional misdirection and willful ignorance of the solid surface fantasy leads me to believe Michael has, after all these years, finally come to realize just how foolish that argument is and has abandoned it.

You can admit it, Michael. The Sun does not have a solid iron surface. See? It's easy. :p
 
Civil conversation? You really expect "civil" conversation from everyone *except* yourself? Wow are you a head trip.


I take it you're finished actually trying to support your crackpot conjecture and are now just going to complain about people pointing out how silly some of Birkeland's ideas were? :rolleyes:
 
You showed some 2D images with some loops on them. Then you invent, out of thin air, the idea that one part of the loop was below the photosphere and one part was above.

I didn't "invent" anything. The mass flow patterns tell the story Ben. There are coronal loops coming up and through and back into that "layer" ben. The center of the sunspot also contained a filament that went spiraling down into your presumably "opaque" layer. The bottoms of the penumbral filaments are visible even in Gband images to a greater depth than 500Km!
 
Which one of them produced sustained solar wind from a sphere in a lab? Which one of them duplicated Birkeland's corona in a lab? Which one of them duplicated *ANY* of Birkeland's empirical predictions in a lab using "magnetic reconnection"? Which one?
Oh, silly me!

Here was I thinking we were focussed on the photosphere, the chromosphere, the corona, the transition region, and how the mainstream solar models do not incorporate "current flows"; how bad my reading comprehension is ... :(

I guess GM was right, again; when you get into hot water (or hot plasma) you wear those poor goalposts out yet once more (are we playing soccer on the tennis court now? or perhaps polo?)

Oh, and BTW, why would anyone want to reproduce Birkeland's lab results? Surely the empirical test is to account for the observed features of the solar wind; things like particle composition, magnetic field strength and direction, velocity of each particle type, variation of these with time and space, ... ?
 
I take it you're finished actually trying to support your crackpot conjecture

I'll bet that you average more than 1 "crackpot" comment a post. Please define the term "civil" for me as you define it because your definition of that term isn't from this planet.
 
I didn't "invent" anything. The mass flow patterns tell the story Ben. There are coronal loops coming up and through and back into that "layer" ben. The center of the sunspot also contained a filament that went spiraling down into your presumably "opaque" layer. The bottoms of the penumbral filaments are visible even in Gband images to a greater depth than 500Km!


According to your own standards?...

Since you never produced any paper to back up that claim we can only surmise that you pulled that [claim] out of your ^ss.
 
I'll bet that you average more than 1 "crackpot" comment a post. Please define the term "civil" for me as you define it because your definition of that term isn't from this planet.


All that complaining when you have so much work to do?

Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.

:dl:
 
I didn't "invent" anything. The mass flow patterns tell the story Ben. There are coronal loops coming up and through and back into that "layer" ben. The center of the sunspot also contained a filament that went spiraling down into your presumably "opaque" layer. The bottoms of the penumbral filaments are visible even in Gband images to a greater depth than 500Km!
(bold added)

Now since there is an abundance of observational data on mass flows - they're called dopplergrams - you have, of course, the data to hand to corroborate your "from visual inspection" conclusions, right?

Hmm, maybe not (no mention of dopplergrams on your website ... I wonder why?)
 
How do you know?

Because I've got a clue. You, quite obviously, do not.

You made that up!

No, I did not. That you don't understand it doesn't mean I invented it.

You can't figure out that acceleration of the solar wind. How do you know they aren't related? What is "dark energy" other than "acceleration" that you can't otherwise explain?

Start a thread on dark energy and someone might clue you in.

No, I bring it up because I think they are directly related issues.

No you don't. You don't think dark energy even exists. And the evidence for it indicate that it's irrelevant tot he sun anyways.

You claim 70% of the universe is made of something that causes acceleration.

I did nothing of the sort. Somebody else did.

I see an observation of acceleration you can't explain. How do you know that they are not related processes?

General relativity. Gravity is not selective about the mass it operates on. Whatever is driving the solar winds clearly is. Duh.

Now, care to try to defend (or even explain) your model? Or will you just admit you've been talking out your rear from the beginning.
 
Oh, silly me!

Here was I thinking we were focussed on the photosphere, the chromosphere, the corona, the transition region, and how the mainstream solar models do not incorporate "current flows"; how bad my reading comprehension is ... :(

You folks always put the magnetic cart before the electric horse. Instead of "electrical current" doing the work, you "pretend" it's the magnetic field that does that. If you actually took the time to *EMPIRICALLY TEST* your theories in a lab, you would figure out your problems in a hurry. Since you'd rather write endless papers on a topic that Alfven called "pseudoscience", I guess that's never going to happen.

Oh, and BTW, why would anyone want to reproduce Birkeland's lab results? Surely the empirical test is to account for the observed features of the solar wind;

I'd settle for seeing you even demonstrate that you *CAN* create full sphere "solar wind" from a sphere and a corona around a sphere using your "magnetic reconnection" theory. Got one? You guys *SUCK* at trying out your ideas in the lab. Birkeland kicked your collective butts on that front.
 
Well, good, all this intentional misdirection and willful ignorance of the solid surface fantasy leads me to believe Michael has, after all these years, finally come to realize just how foolish that argument is and has abandoned it.

You can admit it, Michael. The Sun does not have a solid iron surface. See? It's easy. :p
Actually, in this case, what he's walked away from is his ""cathode" solar model", which he is on record as saying is far more important than any "Sun has a solid rigid iron surface" idea.
 
Actually, in this case, what he's walked away from is his ""cathode" solar model", which he is on record as saying is far more important than any "Sun has a solid rigid iron surface" idea.

How have I walked away from it? I've been pointing out it's benefits in term of explaining that corona you can't explain and explaining that solar wind you can't explain and how it works in a lab to explain these actual physical processes unlike your "magnetic reconnection" nonsense.
 
Your "clue" is a a "proclamation" that you cannot empirically support. It is a pure statement of faith on your part. It's like me claiming magic faeries have the same property.

Nope. I gave you the empirical evidence in that post. Gravity is not selective about the mass it operates on.
 
Nope. I gave you the empirical evidence in that post. Gravity is not selective about the mass it operates on.

You did *NOT* give me anything empirical to work with. You gave me a "proclamation" devoid of empirical support. Show me an example in the lab where "dark energy' does what you claim.
 
I didn't "invent" anything. The mass flow patterns tell the story Ben. There are coronal loops coming up and through and back into that "layer" ben. The center of the sunspot also contained a filament that went spiraling down into your presumably "opaque" layer. The bottoms of the penumbral filaments are visible even in Gband images to a greater depth than 500Km!

Nope, never saw it. It's all above the photosphere. When you say "through" you mean "these two features sort of line up in 2D and I GUESS it means this one is below that one"

When you say "bottom" you mean "the edge of the feature farthest to the right in the 2D image" or something, and you GUESS that you know what the vertical structure is.

Your inability to
draw diagrams
doesn't help, of course.
 
Here's the deal zig. You can't explain "acceleration", so you made up a term "dark energy". I've found another example of acceleration that you can't explain. If it is just a placeholder term for human ignorance of the real cause of "acceleration", then that solar wind is a perfect example of "dark energy" driving "acceleration".
 
Now, care to try to defend (or even explain) your model? Or will you just admit you've been talking out your rear from the beginning.


One of the most interesting things about this particular crackpot conjecture is that Michael has not done a single thing since 2006 to try to improve the scientific validity of his claim. Not a single thing. A legitimate scientist with a "theory" which is destined to destroy mainstream solar physics would have at least taken a math or physics course at the community college. He would have at least learned what a running difference image actually is, how and why it is made, and where the data comes from that is used to create it. A legitimate scientist would have added material to his list of reference sources and done some of his own homework and empirical experimentation. Michael is still at the beginning.

There is not a single thing in Michael's repertoire that he wasn't already using back in 2006. A handful of solar images are newer, but his claim of obtaining secret knowledge by staring at them for a long, long time is the same old shtick. He hasn't made any effort whatsoever to flesh out his conjecture. As revolutionary as he thinks this crackpot conjecture is, other than typing the same words over and over on various Internet fora, he hasn't lifted a finger to get himself any closer to supporting it. He still wants everyone else to do his work, and he promptly ignores the results when they do. His argument today sucks exactly as badly as it did in 2005 because it is exactly the same hollow, failed argument.
 
You folks always put the magnetic cart before the electric horse. Instead of "electrical current" doing the work, you "pretend" it's the magnetic field that does that.
Um, dude, I don't know how to break this to you, ...

The magnetic fields are what you can observe, from our perch 150 million km or so away.

There is no way to observe electric fields or currents from afar (unless, of course, you know something that Alfvén did not know, much less Birkeland).

And in any case, as a keen student of Alfvén, (and Maxwell) you know that E and j can be derived from B and v (don't you?)

Besides, any scientist who bases their work on empirical observations should approach understanding of the Sun starting with the observations - such as dopplergrams and magnetograms (a term which is also entirely absent from your website, funny that), not one's pet ""cathode" solar model".

If you actually took the time to *EMPIRICALLY TEST* your theories in a lab, you would figure out your problems in a hurry. Since you'd rather write endless papers on a topic that Alfven called "pseudoscience", I guess that's never going to happen.
Oh? And what did Alfvén write endless papers on?

That's right, MHD!

And what's in all Alfvén's endless papers? Why pages and pages of upside-down-triangly thingies, drunken letter d's, and the whole math bunny kit and caboodle.

I'd settle for seeing you even demonstrate that you *CAN* create full sphere "solar wind" from a sphere and a corona around a sphere using your "magnetic reconnection" theory. Got one? You guys *SUCK* at trying out your ideas in the lab. Birkeland kicked your collective butts on that front.
Hmm, last time I read Birkie's books he didn't have a lab that's ~1 million km on each side, inside which was a mass of ~2x10^30 kg of predominantly hydrogen and helium, ... can you remind me, please, where that lab was located?
 
One of the most interesting things about this particular crackpot conjecture

One of the most interesting things is the fact you think you are entitled to civil discourse when in fact you are the least civil individual on the internet. Your hypocrisy quotient is off scale.
 
Lurker request to MM:

Please work with Ben on diagramming the geometry of your claims about the sun.

Lurkers, who's with me?!
 
One of the most interesting things is the fact you think you are entitled to civil discourse when in fact you are the least civil individual on the internet. Your hypocrisy quotient is off scale.


You're wasting all that time complaining when you have so much work to do?...

I think before I spend money on a lawyer, I'll spend some time creating a few RD movies for you first and stuff your arrogant attitude right down your throat. We'll then compare them to what NASA has in their daily archives and see what you come up with for the same time period. Like I said, I have a day job, and you aren't my first priority in life, even with that smug arrogant attitude.


We haven't compared the running difference images and analyzed them pixel by pixel yet. I guess when there's complaining to do, that will have to wait, eh?

:dl:
 
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How have I walked away from it? I've been pointing out it's benefits in term of explaining that corona you can't explain and explaining that solar wind you can't explain and how it works in a lab to explain these actual physical processes unlike your "magnetic reconnection" nonsense.
For today's prize, who wrote the following:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
It [the Moplasma which the photosphere is composed of] "works" to some degree, but it's not exactly something I can justify without knowing a lot more about the current flows involved

The various ionization states are simply related to the current flow inside the loops

No, I *KNOW* that it's wrong because you and those authors never bothered to include any "current flow" in your model.

You guys/gals "hate" the whole EU concept with such a passion, it really doesn't matter what I propose as long as it includes "current flow". You'll never consider it

The best I could hope to do is utilize that image to verify that 4800-6000km figure that Kosovichev's data suggested. At that 4800km point, the mass flows all go from vertical to horizontal, indicating the point at which the mass flows are related to "current flow' through the shell rather than related to the ion mass flow of the "tornado" under the sunspot
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

And who, many pages later, wrote this: "The only thing I want to see you do is recreate either Birkeland's corona or that solar wind using "magnetic reconnection"."

No mention of "current flows", "mass flows", "photosphere", "Kosovichev's data", "ionization states", 17.1 nm iron lines, HeII, "sunspots", ....

Are we playing squash now?
 
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