Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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Is the Sun a Cathode?

What exactly was his "cathode" discharging to RC?
What's a "cathode" (with quotation marks)? Is it anything like a cathode (without quotation marks)? Our handy-dandy wikipedia cathode "is an electrode through which electric current flows out of a polarized electrical device." They go on to say that it is not true that a cathode polarity must always be negative, and they give an example of a cathode with switching polarity. We also find this: "Consequently, as can be seen from the following examples, in a device which consumes power the cathode is negative, and in a device which provides power the cathode is positive:".

Now, I neither know nor care about the cathode in Birkeland's lab, assuming he had one (probably the terella). But what about the sun? What kind of a cathode (or "cathode") is the sun? Clearly the sun carries neither negative nor positive constant polarity, since it is seen to simultaneously emit equal numbers of positive protons and negative electrons (equal to the best of our ability to measure equality, which is actually quite substantial). If the solar polarity is switching or in some way time-variable, it must be so on a time scale too short to affect the charge neutrality of the solar wind. Certainly from our provincial, terrestrial point of view, the sun appears to be providing quite a lot of power (roughly 1368 Watts/meter2 on a plane perpendicular to the direction of the sunlight, above Earth's atmosphere). So we would Wiki-assume that the sun must be of positive polarity, which seems the opposite of Mozina's intention.

Quite simply put, empirical science, in the form of direct in-situ measurements of the solar wind composition proves that the sun is not and cannot be a cathode in any conventional sense. Now, as for being a "cathode" (with quotation marks), I can't say, since I have no idea what that is supposed to be.
 
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FWIW, about 2400 posts back, MM posted a link to a SERTS paper from 1990: Photospheric abundances of Oxygen, Neon, and Argon derived from the XUV spectrum of a coronal flare (post 1529)

I don't feel that it validates MM's model (and I think I've been pretty clear about that over the last few weeks), but he did post a link.
Thanks for this! :D

I remembered that he'd posted a link, but couldn't find the post in which he'd done it (now I know why ... I was searching for SERTS).

Curiously, this paper does not report any SERTS data (the observations were taken using a spectroheliogram aboard Skylab).

Even more curiously, MM seems to think - per post #1529 - that (relative) line intensity is a valid measure of (relative) ionisation populations! :jaw-dropp

Does anyone else find it odd - if that's the right word - that MM seems to apply his own, idiosyncratic, intuitive feel for things, in place of the Numerical Prediction he says is what's called for (in his own, idiosyncratic, version of the scientific method)?

I could not find any analysis of the SERTS data (or any data, for that matter) concerning relative populations (in various ionisation states), or relative abundances of the 20 or so elements whose lines have been reported, in any MM posts or on his website.

Would it be correct to say that most of what MM reports cannot be independently verified, if only because he says so little about his analyses?
 
Perhaps it wouldn't hurt you to learn a little math. I understand you don't wish to go toe to toe with these guys, I don't blame you , but it would help you to understand the issues a little better.

AFIK you haven't responded to Sol's request for info so he can calculate the opacity of the Moplasma, I'm behind again.
 
More "civil" dialog on your part Dr. Denial?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A00E0DA133BE633A25750C2A9649C946296D6CF

Oh look, he *DID* have a model after all! Now of course he didn't use "brass" when calculating the mass of the universe but instead he used "iron". Then again you're in pure denial of that point too. You will stoop to any low to call me a liar. You're the liar GM. Birkeland had a solar model. It was an *ELECTRIC* solar theory. Deal with it.


Yep. We've already gone through this. Birkeland so poorly understood the workings of the Sun that he believed atoms were being spewed into space and forming new planets. He believed the "electrification" was in the neighborhood of 600,000,000 volts. He was horribly and completely wrong. If he were alive today and making the same claims he would be regarded as a crackpot and his ideas would be considered moronic.

Oh, and what a complete idiot he must have been, if he believed the Sun had a solid iron surface (which of course he didn't) to model the surface from brass instead of iron. Was he insane? Stupid?
 
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Yep. We've already gone through this. Birkeland so poorly understood the workings of the Sun that he believed atoms were being spewed into space and forming new planets. He believed the "electrification" was in the neighborhood of 600,000,000 volts. He was horribly and completely wrong. If he were alive today and making the same claims he would be regarded as a crackpot and his ideas would be considered moronic.

Only by you. More "civil" dialog? You definitely need to add that word to your list.
 
FYI, Paravolt, the point of the RD disk size prediction I made earlier in this thread directly relates back to the ionization state of the atmosphere. If the atmosphere is highly ionized we should see the RD image fit nicely inside the chromosphere boundary. If it is not as highly ionized as I presume then the RD disk will fit just outside of that boundary.


The above comment is double talk. A running difference graph is simply a graphical representation of a series of mathematical calculations showing the difference in values of corresponding pixels between a pair of sequential images. Your qualifications to understand solar imagery have been challenged and you have been wholly unable to demonstrate that you possess any such qualifications. Consequently any argument you make based on solar imagery is an unqualified opinion and is worthless as evidence.
 
Well the idea of transmuting elements dates back at least 2 and a half millenia (if you believe wikipedia).

It seems to me that Birkeland was more than a little interested in uranium. When talking about the sun's power source he mentioned several radioactive isotopes as I recall. It seems to me he was pretty much on the cutting edge of what was going on in science at that point. I don't think he would have been at all surprise at what transpired after his death, except for the fact that you guys forgot all his work. :)
 
The above comment is double talk. A running difference graph is simply a graphical representation of a series of mathematical calculations showing the difference in values of corresponding pixels between a pair of sequential images.

Which of course explains absolutely *NOTHING* related to the solar images and the rigid patterns in them, the "flying stuff" and the 'disk' that you can't see, etc.

Your qualifications to understand solar imagery have been challenged...

Yawn. You're like a parrot with that line. Since you never put up any numbers (or anted up) you certainly never provided any 'challenge'.
 
It seems to me that Birkeland was more than a little interested in uranium. When talking about the sun's power source he mentioned several radioactive isotopes as I recall. It seems to me he was pretty much on the cutting edge of what was going on in science at that point. I don't think he would have been at all surprise at what transpired after his death, except for the fact that you guys forgot all his work. :)

Right. Then this is not fission he is talking about.
 
I'm not talking about his experiments RC. How evasive can you be? Where did his solar cathode discharge to RC?
Nowhere because he never mentions a solar cathode nor where it would discharge to. Otherwise you would be able to answer this:
How evasive can you be?

The problem is you have to know what you're searching for RC and since you've never read the book you wouldn't know. Try searching for "uranium".

Searched for uranium:
The first quote comes after he talks about the natural emission of beta particles from radium.
A disintegration such as this in the sun does not necessarily presuppose the presence there of great quantities of radium, uranium, or thorium.
(my emphasis added)
Whoops - no fission there. And is Birkeland also calling you a liar?

I do like the comment on the next page showing the lack of knowledge of the time:
Under the temperature-conditions prevailing in the sun, it is possible that ordinary matter may be so radio-active, that it is not necessary to assume the presence in great quantities of the radio-elements known in ordinary temperatures.
Of course we know now that no matter how much you heat matter it will not become radioactive (spontaneously decay). The best you can do is heat light elements at high pressures to cause fusion.
It also suggest that he thinks that the Sun is really, really hot - rulling out you iron crust fantasy*


In three hours the brass anode was completely coated with a shining mirror of platinum. On the glass wall of the vacuum-case there was a fairly sharp shadow of a screen that stood between the cathode and the wall, so that in this experiment we are fully justified in speaking of "platinum rays".
In the same way, in many and varied experiments, rays of palladium and uranium were produced with the employment of as much as from 15,000 to 20,000 volts to the cathode (the positive pole was earthed) and temperatures of from 600 to about 1800 C.
Whoops - no fission there.

You'll also note from the NY Times article that he entertained the idea of a transmutation of elements - fusion.
You'll also note that his experimet produced "platinum rays", "palladium rays" and "uranium rays" from platinum, palladium and uranium coated brass anodes. He then compares these rays to alpha rays in the news article as a suggestion of transmutation - not fusion. This is similar to his mistake in comparing electrical discharges to solar activity. Just because things look alike does not mean that they have any connection.

* Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been totally debunked!
The fact that it fails many other observations (an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K :jaw-dropp ) and predicts absolutely nothing just makes it a joke. See the over 70 questions that Michael Mozina is incapable of answering.
 
It seems to me that Birkeland was more than a little interested in uranium. When talking about the sun's power source he mentioned several radioactive isotopes as I recall.
Your recall is wrong. He mentions radium, uranium and thorium in the context of their radioactivity. No isotopes are mentioned.
In fact he talks about radium a lot more than uranium because radium is a good source of beta and alpha particles.

Just to make sure here:
You do know that radioactivity is not fission?
Radioactivity is basically alpha and beta decay.
Fission is the splitting of a heavy nucleus into lighter daughter elements, e.g U into Kr and Ba.
There are heavy elements that spontaneously fission. Uranium does with half-lives of billions of years.
Radium is over one million times more radioactive than the same mass of uranium.
 
Which of course explains absolutely *NOTHING* related to the solar images and the rigid patterns in them, the "flying stuff" and the 'disk' that you can't see, etc.


Why, certainly it does, Michael. It explains the fact that a running difference graph no more shows any real stuff than a pie chart can be sliced into pieces and served for dessert. To claim otherwise would be an argument from incredulity and/or ignorance.

Yawn. You're like a parrot with that line. Since you never put up any numbers (or anted up) you certainly never provided any 'challenge'.


The number I put up was this: A total of zero (a number) professional astrophysicists will agree with your misinterpretation of a running difference graph. Zero. That's a number. And that's my prediction. For you to say I haven't put up any numbers or made any relevant predictions is a lie.
 
Why, certainly it does, Michael. It explains the fact that a running difference graph no more shows any real stuff than a pie chart can be sliced into pieces and served for dessert. To claim otherwise would be an argument from incredulity and/or ignorance.

Don't even talk to me about ignorance about RD images Mr. "Flying stuff? What flying stuff?". Your so called "expertise" went up in smoke with me at that comment. You may understand the process, but you can't begin to relate it to solar physics and physical processes in the solar atmosphere.

The number I put up was this:

That's called a logical fallacy, specifically an appeal to authority fallacy. Everyone knows you have no mathematical teeth or bite GM. We all saw how it went down the size of the disk question finally came up. Your response was priceless IMO: "Disk? What disk?" :)
 
Don't even talk to me about ignorance about RD images Mr. "Flying stuff? What flying stuff?". Your so called "expertise" went up in smoke with me at that comment. You may understand the process, but you can't begin to relate it to solar physics and physical processes in the solar atmosphere.


The data used to create the running difference graphs you keep blathering about comes from thousands, some as much as tens of thousands of kilometers above the photosphere. What you're claiming to see is some physically impossible surface several thousand kilometers below the photosphere, tens of thousands of kilometers below the place where the data was gathered to make the running difference graphs. A running difference graph, because it shows thermal changes in the solar atmosphere, is irrlevant to your crackpot conjecture. Don't you understand that yet?

That's called a logical fallacy, specifically an appeal to authority fallacy. Everyone knows you have no mathematical teeth or bite GM. We all saw how it went down the size of the disk question finally came up. Your response was priceless IMO: "Disk? What disk?" :)


When the issue of size came up I said that running difference graph you post on the front page of your web site, the one showing the graph of images from the whole Sun, on my monitor is about 1/17209728800th the dimension of the commonly accepted diameter of the photosphere. So again you're lying. And about your mathematical support? As I recall you said something like...

Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.


Did you do a little math yet?
 
:s2:
Originally Posted by Michael Mozina
Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.

:s2:
 
The above comment is double talk. A running difference graph is simply a graphical representation of a series of mathematical calculations showing the difference in values of corresponding pixels between a pair of sequential images.
E.g.

[latex]\[ G_{i} \approx I_{i+1} - I_i \][/latex]

Which of course explains absolutely *NOTHING* related to the solar images and the rigid patterns in them, the "flying stuff" and the 'disk' that you can't see, etc.
Well, it's the first thing you'd have to understand before you'd be able to understand any sensible explanation of the running difference images and why the patterns you think rigid aren't.

Everyone knows you have no mathematical teeth or bite GM.
Well, he did understand that your 7200km claim implied 100000km of transparent Mozplazma, and that your revised 4800km claim implied 80000km of transparent Mozplazma. If and when you acknowledge those facts by completing ben_m's diagram, and provide sol invictus with the parameters needed to test your claims (by calculating the opacity), you'll be in a slightly more credible position to attack GeeMack's mathematical abilities.
 
Giggywig said:
How exactly would an iron sun form?
Theoretically gravity should do.
Um, haven't you just failed the MM test of what's valid, re scientific process?

"the scientific process is supposed to work something like: Observation->Need To Understand That Observation->Empirical Idea->Empirical Experimentation->Numerical Prediction->"

I mean don't you first need to have done "Empirical Experimentation" followed by "Numerical Prediction" on Mozeparation, with Mozplasma acting as a Mozode?

These are critical components of any "iron sun" (well, strictly speaking, any sun that is consistent with the MM solar "model"), so you can't talk about how such a sun forms until you've first shown - by "Empirical Experimentation" - that such a thing can exist ... unless, of course, you violate your own rules on how the scientific process is supposed to work.

What am I missing (apart from the total lack of any math Numerical Prediction)?
 
Theoretically gravity should do.

Give us the benefit of your extensive knowledge and explain why gravity would form an iron sun,complete with the maths,instead of just making unjustified assertions.The impressiveness is not terrific,to borrow a phrase.
 
There's a great deal of incivility and bickering on this thread so I strongly advise you to cut out the sniping and sneering. Address the topic or this thread will be put on moderated status.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
It seems that some of us cannot set aside their bickering, so I'm keeping my promise to put this on moderated status. What I don't promise is that I'll be very punctual or very lenient in checking posts. If your behavior improves, perhaps we can remove the moderated status.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
E.g.

[latex]\[ G_{i} \approx I_{i+1} - I_i \][/latex]


It appears to be so. Pertinent to graphics, typically we use hexadecimal values to describe the colors of pixels. In grayscale that value would run from 0x00 (black) to 0xFF (white). Say pixel A:1 in Image 1 is 0x8F, and A:1 in Image 2 is 0xB2. You would do (0xA2 + 0x80) - 0x8F. The pixel that goes in A:1 in the running difference graph will be 0x93. (The 0x80 is added to the pixel in Image 2 before the subtraction so that most of the results still fall within the 0x00 to 0xFF range required to create the output. Anything below or above the output range will be converted to black or white.)

Well, it's the first thing you'd have to understand before you'd be able to understand any sensible explanation of the running difference images and why the patterns you think rigid aren't.


Much like I've been trying to tell him for several years now.

Well, he did understand that your 7200km claim implied 100000km of transparent Mozplazma, and that your revised 4800km claim implied 80000km of transparent Mozplazma.


Michael claims to have the qualifications to "do a little math" at a level necessary to at least balance his own checkbook, a level arguably far below the absolute minimum necessary to understand the quantitative implications of his claim. Those qualifications have been challenged, and he has been unable to demonstrate that he is indeed so qualified. So given that...

In order to determine how low a level of mathematical understanding one might have and still find the flaws in Michael's grossly incorrect claim about that SDO image, I decided to analyze it intentionally avoiding anything that might be considered high school level geometry or algebra. I got those correct approximations, within 1% as I recall, by literally counting pixels and multiplying a couple of three digit numbers. That is grade school level math and it utilized the pixel counting qualifications which Michael claims, but apparently doesn't possess either.

And although I certainly could have calculated the amount of Michael's claimed x-ray vision using pretty simple high school geometry and algebra, I didn't need it, and I didn't even double check my results before posting the answers here. Other folks checked the results and determined that mine were correct, confirming my notion that it only requires grade school math and counting pixels to understand that the SDO image cannot possibly be evidence for Michael's claim.

Also, I'm still waiting for Michael to find one particular flaw in that SDO image, an error in the number of pixels that is greater than the number he says are significant to supporting his crackpot conjecture. It does require being qualified to count pixels to come up with these things. Does anyone find it interesting that he hasn't discovered it yet?

If and when you acknowledge those facts by completing ben_m's diagram, and provide sol invictus with the parameters needed to test your claims (by calculating the opacity), you'll be in a slightly more credible position to attack GeeMack's mathematical abilities.


Indeed.
 
Also, I'm still waiting for Michael to find one particular flaw in that SDO image, an error in the number of pixels that is greater than the number he says are significant to supporting his crackpot conjecture. It does require being qualified to count pixels to come up with these things. Does anyone find it interesting that he hasn't discovered it yet?
I used to (find it interesting); now I find it depressing.

If I'm not mistaken, quite a few others have written posts with (usually deliberate) errors that should be screamingly obvious to someone who has the familiarity with, and competence in, the material MM has posted.

AFAIK, without exception*, MM has not responded with an unambiguous post identifying the error.

Now whether he found an error (but didn't respond), or looked carefully and didn't find an error (and didn't respond), or read the post so briefly (skimmed so quickly) that even gross errors would not be noticed (and didn't respond), ... I don't think anyone can say (except MM).

However, it is depressing - to me at least - that MM seems to care so little about the details of the ideas he so passionately promotes as to not respond; especially so when JREF members have so obviously put quite a lot of time and effort into a) trying to understand what he's saying, and b) trying to find ways to test them, in an objective and independently verifiable way.

I hate to say it, but it really seems to me that MM treats the ideas he presents as somehow sacred, that questioning them is automatically invalid and unacceptable, and that there is no need to demonstrate their veracity in an objective way.

* if anyone knows of an unambiguous exception - or three - would you please point it out?
 
As far as I know they have always existed. Perhaps this paper might help explain some of 'origin" type issues a bit?
http://arxiv.org/abs/nucl-th/0511051
That is not a paper.
It is a pre-print with no mention of whether it was published. It has a number of flaws, e.g.
  • Figure 2 is a fantasy that a running difference image shows actual "rigid structures" on the Sun when it actually only shows areas of increasing and deceasing temperatures in the corona that happen to be either side of flares and give the illusion of the "mountain ranges" you mention on your web site.
  • The paper never explains the pertinent observations of the Sun, i.e. the types and amount of neutrinos emitted by it.
  • It fails your own personal criteria for a vaild scientific theory:
    Energy released from repulsive interactions between neutrons in condensed nuclear matter has never been seen in controlled, empirical experimenets in labd hare on Earth.
  • The abstract has "The similarity Bohr noted between atomic and planetary structures extends to a similarity between nuclear and stellar structures." which is totally wring. There is no such similarity because Bohr was wrong. Atomic structures "look" nothing like planetary structures except in high school textbooks.
 
[latex]\[ G_{i} \approx I_{i+1} - I_i \][/latex]
It appears to be so. Pertinent to graphics, typically we use hexadecimal values to describe the colors of pixels. In grayscale that value would run from 0x00 (black) to 0xFF (white). Say pixel A:1 in Image 1 is 0x8F, and A:1 in Image 2 is 0xB2. You would do (0xB2 + 0x80) - 0x8F. The pixel that goes in A:1 in the running difference graph will be 0x93. (The 0x80 is added to the pixel in Image 2 before the subtraction so that most of the results still fall within the 0x00 to 0xFF range required to create the output. Anything below or above the output range will be converted to black or white.)
That corresponds to

[latex]$$G_i = f (I_{i+1} - I_i + \hbox{{\bf gray50}})$$[/latex]

where the limiting function f is defined by

[latex]$$f(x) = \max(\hbox{{\bf black}}, \min(\hbox{{\bf white}}, x))$$[/latex]

As an exercise in using the ImageMagickWP tools, I had computed difference images starting from photographs of lunar phases at Wikimedia Commons. Uncertain how to compute the min and max using ImageMagick, I computed the difference images affinely via

[latex]$$G_i = \frac{I_{i+1} - I_i}{2} + \hbox{{\bf gray50}}$$[/latex]

I didn't post those difference images because lunar features really are solid, which might have given someone the wrong idea. Four days later you posted the running difference video for Jupiter.

(I made a small correction (in gray) to GeeMack's post. I thank the moderator for letting me cancel an earlier draft in which I feared I might have gotten the first equation wrong.)
 
Comments on the Mozina solar model

Since Birkeland already created solar wind of both types of ions, ...
No, I have never seen the mainstream demonstrate full sphere solar wind inside of a controlled experiment here on Earth. On the other hand, I have seen Birkeland replicate that process using "current flow".
The solar wind that we see is made up of equal number of protons & electrons (the the best of our ability to measure same), along with a very small fraction of heavier positively charged ions. I can find no record of Birkeland ever performing an experiment in which he was able to generate an analogous wind of equal proportion electrons & protons. Unless you are able to show us where, exactly, in his voluminous writings this can be found, I am forced to conclude that, as a matter of fact, Birkeland never performed any experiment which properly predicts the charge-neutral solar wind we find in the real solar system.

Since Birkeland already created solar wind of both types of ions, and a hot corona around a sphere, don't you think they should also duplicate that in lab too? Why do they get a "free pass" based on a math formula related to "pseudoscience" according to the author of MHD theory?
What was the temperature of the "corona" created by Birkeland? The real corona of the real sun has multi-million Kelvin temperatures. Furthermore, the real corona, like the solar wind is populated by roughly equal numbers of electrons & protons. What was the particle population in Birkeland's corona?

The point & question to carry away from this is: To what extent did Birkeland in fact predict either the solar wind or the solar corona? Are we talking about something like "there are a lot of charged particles"? That's quite general and neither very informative nor very predictive. Are we talking about "lots of protons & electrons"? This is still quite general, but more informative. As far as I can tell this is in fact what we are talking about. But Birkeland never predicted any of the physical parameters of the solar wind, except to say that the particles should be traveling at nearly the speed of light, which we know to be very wrong and so an obviously failed prediction, if prediction it was.

I think the veneration by Mozina of the claimed prediction of the solar wind & corona by Birkeland is misplaced. Clearly Birkeland did not make any substantially correct prediction about either the solar wind or the solar corona, save perhaps for the fact that it consists of both negatively & positively charged particles (he never did say anything about their relative abundance in the flow from the sun, so far as I can tell).

It seems to me that the ad hoc nature of your DE claim is really best exemplified in that solar wind enigma. You don't understand that constant, full sphere acceleration process, so by the logic of the mainstream we can also refer to that acceleration process as "dark energy". It's just a placeholder term, right?
Really? Are you sure?!? Except for the fact that you can't (or won't even try) to understand the content, I'd recommend this: "Successful Coronal Heating and Solar Wind Acceleration by MHD Waves by Numerical Simulations from Photosphere to 0.3AU" (plenty more where that came from; likely hundreds, if not thousands, of papers ...)

This illustrates one of the fatal flaws in the way Mozina thinks about science. He thinks that if you cannot specify the exact, precise, one and only mechanism that is responsible for the acceleration of the solar wind, and do so right now in plain English, then you actually know nothing at all about the mechanism. But that kind of exclusive reasoning is almost never true in any science, and it certainly is not true in the case of the solar wind and solar corona. The paper referenced by DRD above shows that coronal heating and the fast solar wind are the "natural consequences" of fluctuating magnetic fields at footpoints in the photosphere. I have already addressed the issue of coronal heating and solar wind acceleration in some detail, e.g., Coronal Heating and Solar Wind I. We know of several mechanisms which are in principle certainly capable of heating the corona and accelerating the solar wind. Mozina seriously underestimates the validity of the scientific studies on this topic that are already in effect.

In the past 100 years of your mathematical progresses, not one of you can duplicate an experiment even close to what Birkeland came up with 100 years ago. No solar wind demonstrations in the lab. No corona produced in the lab. No coronal loops around a sphere produced in the lab. No high speed "jets" produced in the lab. The only thing you've ever produced in the lab is "circuit reconnection" between two circuits of flowing plasma which you called "magnetic reconnection". Hoy.

This is an example of yet another fatal flaw in Mozina's thinking. He thinks that if you cannot precisely duplicate something in a controlled laboratory experiment, then it is neither empirical nor scientific. He is seriously wrong on both counts. This of course goes along with his pathological avoidance of all things mathematical, which I have also addressed elsewhere (e.g., Math Bunnies & Image Bunnies). Math & physics are essentially synonymous. Physics in the absence of mathematics is extremely limited, and has virtually no explanatory power of any kind. Production, reproduction, or modeling of any of these phenomena in a laboratory setting is certainly desirable, but the failure to do so does not bear substantially on the scientific validity of the proposed mechanisms. And it must be borne in mind that there are many astrophysical phenomena which, either because of spatial scale and/or high energy, cannot be readily duplicated on Earth. This does not in any way detract from the scientific validity of conclusions based on real physics.

However, Mozina also underestimates the capability of astrophysical laboratories. For instance, in the laboratory of the Bellan Plasma Physics Group at Caltech, they have simulated solar prominences. And as for "high speed jets", they are old news in laboratory astrophysics (e.g., Lebedev, et al., 2002; Lebedev, et al., 2004).

Since Birkeland already created solar wind of both types of ions, and a hot corona around a sphere, don't you think they should also duplicate that in lab too? Why do they get a "free pass" based on a math formula related to "pseudoscience" according to the author of MHD theory?

Yet another fatal flaw. Mozina always falls back on his comfortable position that magnetic reconnection must be "pseudoscience" because Alfven said so. Well, Alfven was just plain wrong. We can actually see magnetic reconnection happen in controlled laboratory experiments, as I have pointed out before as well (e.g., Magnetic Reconnection Redux XI). Despite numerous real live controlled laboratory experiments, Mozina still falls back on his old position. Note that he has never even looked at any of the experimental data. Rather he rejects the experiments without any examination at all, for the sole & only reason that the results of the experiments clash with his preconceptions. This kind of attitude cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged. It is an essential ingredient of science that the bias of the scientist must not take precedence over real data. Yet Mozina does exactly that, asserting the power of his bias over the real laboratory data. Alfven's objections to magnetic reconnection are dead and so are Mozina's objections to it.
 
DeiRenDopa said:
Now in all ""electric universe" concepts" that I have seen, out there on the world-wide internet, the Sun is powered by a "current flow", so in this first "Birkeland solar model", the current must produce ~3.8 x 10^26 W, which is the observed power (energy per second) of the Sun.
Woah. What makes you think all the energy comes from "current flow" (in terms of all the heat from the sun)?
Well, if it doesn't then the energy to power the Sun comes from inside, right?

And if so, then what's beneath the solid rigid persistent solid calcium ferrite iron plasma layer must be at a higher temperature than 5700 K, right? I mean, simple thermodynamics, right?
 
I belive if the sun is shining due to electrical processes - it shurely must be a part of a larger electrical circuit with electrons flowing in Bircelands currents (twisted plasma-ropes carrying charge).

My best guess is that there should be an electrical "input" in the polar regions and a "output" on the rest of the sphere - but the where the solar wind organizes itself close to one plane resembling the spiraling arms of a "galaxy".

I'm not that into the different EU solar models - but shurely there would need to be a electrical circuit one way or another - so not to accumulate charge.
In Tom Bridgman's words, this is the "Solar Resistor Model"

He has had a go at quantifying that model, using Don Scott as his primary source (together with Thunderdolts forum responses), and shows pretty convincingly that it is (wildly) inconsistent with observational data.

The link above is to his first blog entry on this model; there is a much longer PDF document too, which contains all the working; it is here (relevant material starts on p17).

For some earlier materials on why the various "Electric Sun" ideas won't/can't work, see Tim Thompson's webpages here, and here.

Note that Bridgman also showed that MM-style "solar cathode models" (with generous interpretation of key words) don't/can't work either.
 
Okay, back home again and a long weekend coming up.
I will print out birkeland's paper on the positive or negative particles emitted by the sun from 1916 (actually 2 papers in that Archives volume) and see if I can write some comments about it with quotes.
 
Okay, back home again and a long weekend coming up.
I will print out birkeland's paper on the positive or negative particles emitted by the sun from 1916 (actually 2 papers in that Archives volume) and see if I can write some comments about it with quotes.

Cool! I'm looking forward to it.
 
I didn't post those difference images because lunar features really are solid, which might have given someone the wrong idea.

:) Ooops. :)

The bottom line Mr. Spock is that a solid surface could (would) in fact produce persistent patterns in RD images. :)

This still all comes back to the size of the RD disk. According to standard theory, the size of the RD disk should be outside of the photosphere. If it is inside that boundary, mainstream theory has a major problem. Likewise if the RD disk is outside the photosphere, that would be a significant falsification of many of my claims, though it probably would not falsify a cathode solar model, or even a solid surface model. It would however falsify my idea about a highly ionized neon photosphere. I'd certainly have to give up on the notion of a high ionization state for instance.
 
:) Ooops. :)

The bottom line Mr. Spock is that a solid surface could (would) in fact produce persistent patterns in RD images. :)

This still all comes back to the size of the RD disk. According to standard theory, the size of the RD disk should be outside of the photosphere. If it is inside that boundary, mainstream theory has a major problem. Likewise if the RD disk is outside the photosphere, that would be a significant falsification of many of my claims, though it probably would not falsify a cathode solar model, or even a solid surface model. It would however falsify my idea about a highly ionized neon photosphere.

I've struggled with this. From your understanding of how RD works, why would an RD image or video show a different disk than a normal image, or a 'fading memory' image/video, or a simple time-averaged image, etc? (I apologize if my image-processin nomenclature isn't quite standard - I've only tangentially worked with such things, and then only with some very specialized requirements).
 
:) Ooops. :)

The bottom line Mr. Spock is that a solid surface could (would) in fact produce persistent patterns in RD images. :)

This still all comes back to the size of the RD disk.
(bold added)

What is this "RD disk"?

Is it something that can be defined in a way that is both objective and independently verifiable? If so, how?

Given how an RD image is made, how would any "RD disk" differ from the disks in the two images used to produce it (the RD image)?
 
:) Ooops. :)

The bottom line Mr. Spock is that a solid surface could (would) in fact produce persistent patterns in RD images. :)


No. It simply would not. A running difference graph is a graphical representation of a series of mathematical calculations. It does not show any surface of any sort. Also, your qualifications to understand solar imagery of any sort have been challenged and you have been wholly unable to demonstrate that you possess any such qualifications. Your unqualified opinion dos not constitute evidence of anything.
 
:) Ooops. :)

The bottom line Mr. Spock is that a solid surface could (would) in fact produce persistent patterns in RD images. :)

This still all comes back to the size of the RD disk. According to standard theory, the size of the RD disk should be outside of the photosphere. If it is inside that boundary, mainstream theory has a major problem. Likewise if the RD disk is outside the photosphere, that would be a significant falsification of many of my claims, though it probably would not falsify a cathode solar model, or even a solid surface model. It would however falsify my idea about a highly ionized neon photosphere. I'd certainly have to give up on the notion of a high ionization state for instance.
Sorry Michael Mozina but there are a number of things wrong in this post.

Persistent patterns in RD images cannot produced by by actual features in a solid, unchanging surface. Running difference images are records of changes in the images. So a solid, unchanging surface vanishes in RD images. If you add shadows then what you see are the changes in shadows and there are no persistent patterns in the RD images.

Any persistent patterns in RD images are records of persistent changes in the original images. This is what has fooled you for so many years in the TRACE RD movie - areas of increasing and decreasing temperature either side of flares in the original images produce adjacent light and dark areas in the RD images that give the illusion of "mountain ranges".

According to the known laws of physics any image of the Sun can be analysed to extract a size for the Sun. This size will vary according to the wavelength being used.
  • In visible wavelengths there will be a boundary seen between the top of the photosphere (where the visible light escapes from the Sun) and the Sun's atmosphere. This can and has been used to calculate the radius of the photosphere.
  • The Sun's atmosphere emits light at lower wavelengths. This means that an image in those wavelengths (e.g. the 171A passband of the TRACE instrument) will collect light from Sun's atmosphere. An analysis to measure a radius from these images will be measuring the radius of the Sun's atmosphere. This will produce a larger radius than the photosphere for the siple reason that the atmosphere is outside the photosphere.
It is thus a waste of time to process the original images into RD images and try to extract the radius - you can just use the original images.

With RD images you have the added complexity of determining whether the "edge" of the Sun is due to changes in the photosphere or changes in the atmosphere. The position of the "edge" will correspond to the area with the nost changes.


However if you want to do this with RD images then I look forward to your published paper on the results.


Your idea about a highly ionized neon photosphere is already falsified.
  • The composition of the photosphere has been measured for over a century (Rowland in 1895 first did this). This has been repeated and refined over time. The amount of neon in the photosphere is small.
In addition, the measured temperature of the photosphere is ~5700 K. You do not specify what you mean by "highly ionized" (is it 51%, 75%, 99.9.99% of the neon?). However the degree of ionization of a plasma is determined primarily by temperature. I am sure that you can find out what the ionization of a neon plasma at ~5700 K is.
 
The bottom line Mr. Spock is that a solid surface could (would) in fact produce persistent patterns in RD images.

So does any non-smooth surface whatsoever, solid or not. Jupiter's clouds; Earth's clouds, Earth's aurorae; the Io plasma torus; sunspots, granules, spicules, and active regions on the Sun---all of these things will show up in a difference image of the rotating object in question. It's the stupidest possible test for "solidity".
 
Michael Mozina said:
There are a million different possible ways we might try to express a "cathode solar model" but if there is current flow from the sun to the heliosphere, then they are all "Birkeland solar models"!

Let's take another look at one of these ""cathode solar model"s".

Start with "from the sun": let's assume it's the cathode, i.e. the place to which electrons flow; let's also assume that the actual cathode is the photosphere, which is 700,000 km from the centre of the Sun (we can adjust the numbers a bit later).

Next, "to the heliosphere": let's assume this is the surface of a sphere, whose radius is 100 au, with the Sun at its centre.

Now in all ""electric universe" concepts" that I have seen, out there on the world-wide internet, the Sun is powered by a "current flow".

However, in light of this MM post, let's say something other than a "current flow" mostly powers the Sun; let's take the power of the "current flow" to be a mere 1% of the Sun's power, a mere ~3.8 x 10^24 W.

How does the "current flow" produce this power? Let's assume it does so by converting the kinetic energy of the electrons into electromagnetic radiation, on (or at) the photosphere. We won't worry ourselves about how this happens ("electrical processes" perhaps), for now.

Let's keep it simple and assume that electrons arrive at the photosphere at the same rate as they leave the heliosphere - x electrons leave the heliosphere in one second, and x electrons arrive at the photosphere in one second. In other words, electrons are neither created nor destroyed between the heliosphere and photosphere, and that the current flow is a steady one.

So, how many electrons leave the heliosphere every second? Well, the electron density there is 10 million per cubic metre, and the electrons are moving at 6 million metres per second (again, we can adjust the numbers later), so across each square metre of heliosphere surface there will be 60 trillion electrons crossing every second. Now the heliosphere's surface is ~3 x 10^27 square metres, so 1.8 x 10^41 electrons depart for the photosphere every second.

How fast are these electrons moving when they reach the photosphere? Well, let's keep it very simple and use the physics of Birkeland's day; specifically the part of Newtonian physics which says that the kinetic energy of a body moving at speed v is half its mass times v squared. Now the mass of an electron is 9.1 x 10^-31 kg, and every second 1.8 x 10^41 electrons give up their kinetic energy for light. So we have a simple equation (Ne is the number of electrons, m the mass of an electron, and v its speed):

1/2 mv^2 * Ne = 3.8 x 10^24

which, when we plug in the numbers, gives us the speed of the electrons as 7 million metres per second.

Before I proceed to check this model against empirical reality (i.e. results of experiments in the lab), I'd like MM to check my model for any flaws, errors, shortcomings, etc.

Of course, every other JREF member reading this is more than welcome to do so too, but if you could, please limit your comments to any mistakes I may have made in my math.

I should add that I have developed this model using only the simplest formulae/math I could; in fact there's little here beyond arithmetic; some extremely simple algebra; the standard definitions of things like energy, power, and density; and the formula for kinetic energy.
 
So does any non-smooth surface whatsoever, solid or not. Jupiter's clouds; Earth's clouds, Earth's aurorae; the Io plasma torus; sunspots, granules, spicules, and active regions on the Sun---all of these things will show up in a difference image of the rotating object in question. It's the stupidest possible test for "solidity".

Well ben, the fact you realize that solids show up as rigid features puts you light years ahead of poor ol' GM. He's sill living in the dark ages of RD imaging. I think he forgot all about rotation or something.

The only valid "test" of solidity" relates to "longevity/time". Most of the photosphere 'structures' some and go in approximately 8 minute intervals, sunspots being an exception. Even the edges of the umbra show clear patterns of movement, and they too experience differential rotation patterns consistent with plasma.

Iron line RD images however show quite a different set of persistent features that have a completely different longevity/time sort of persistence. These patterns also tend to rotate consistently from pole to pole. They last for days, week and even full rotation cycles rather than 8 minutes.

The six step RD high cadence/averaged images like the first image on my website will reveal those same persistent patterns. If we watch them rotate over time, they will demonstrate a clearly different sort of longevity/time compared to anything related to the structures of the photosphere.

The size of the outline of the RD disk will also be critical to this solar model. If the size of the disk is consistent with the surface of the photosphere, then the ionization state of the photosphere must be considerably lower than I presume. If it's smaller than the surface of the photosphere, then your mainstream theory has a problem and this solar model passed another critical test.

Regardless of the outcome of that particular "test", the longevity/time isn't something you can just ignore. Even during the CME recorded in that gold LMSAL RD image, the persistence of the structures was almost entirely unaffected except in very specific key areas of the image.
 
Birkeland’s paper in Archive des Sciences Physiques et Naturelles 1916 (here is the link to the pfd or any other format, just to save you from searching if you need it). There are two papers, one from page 22 to 37 and one from page 109 to124, written in 1915 during Birkelands stay in Egypt. Both are called: Les rayons corpusculaires du soleil qui penètre dan l’atmosphere terrestre sont-ils négatifs ou positives? and belong together.

It is quaint reading for a modern scientist, as a lot of extra text is inserted that nowadays would not get through the referee process anymore, maybe a loss? But anyway, before I digress, let’s go to the first claim that Birkeland (henceforth B) makes on page 23, regarding M. Prof. Störmer:

B said:
M. Stôrmer termine sa publication en se demandant si les rayons de l'aurore boréale sont produits par des corpuscules positifs ou négatifs et il croit pouvoir prouver qu'il s'agit de particules électriques chargées positivement.
Je pense que le raisonnement qui conduit le prof. Stôrmer à cette conclusion est certainement inexact à cause de la manière dont il traite les orages magnétiques polaires.

So, this deals (like the title says) with the particles that penetrate the Earth’s atmosphere and produces the aurora. Apparently, see quote, Störmer claimes that positive charges are creating the aurora. B is not in agreement with that, he thinks that the charges are negative (and as we now know, he is right, but that as an aside), and points to his Norwegian Expedition book, page 609.

Then some discussion about his terrella, and about positive and negative auroras, where the positive ones apparently are produced in the afternoon, whereas the aurora borealis and the negavit polar storms happen in the night with a maximum near midnight. (see for an explanation his book pages 580-571, don’t know why the numbers are reversed and pages 536-540). He discusses that the measurements he made are in agreement with negative charge leading to aurora

Then on page 24 he makes the following claim about positive charges:

B said:
Il semble après cela que si des rayons positifs pénètrent dans l'atmosphère terrestre c'est à peine s'ils peuvent donner lieu à un effet magnétique perceptible, parce que leur action devrait précisément être un maximum pendant la période que nous avons reconnu être absolument calme.
Mais dans les espaces cosmiques, les rayons polaires positives qui existent probablement et même certainement ne semblent pas s'approcher assez de la terre pour qu'on puisse affirmer leur présence dans notre atmosphère. Il serait d'un grand intérêt d'effectuer des observations au levant de la terre sur ce phénomène, et de prouver par là l'existence de rayons solaires positifs; en ce qui me concerne je n'ai jamais rien pu observer de ce genre.

So, if the positive charges would penetrate than it would be in a region where the magnetic field is calm and this leads to his conclusion that the positive charges do not enter the atmosphere. But the positive charges that probably exist in space, do not get close enough to the Earth to be measured, we will have to go there to prove their existence. And B himself has never been able to observe these positive rays.
Before he will show that Störmer is wrong he takes a sidestep to the zodiacal light in §2page 25. Naturally this goes back to his idea that the zodiacal light is also some sort of discharge (which we now know it wrong, it is just reflected light off dust, to keep it simple). He then claims that, page 25:

B said:
Au point de vue physique, il est très probable que ces nouveaux rayons solaires ne sont exclusivement ni des rayons positifs ni des rayons négatifs, mais sont des rayons des deux sortes.

So the zodiacal light is produced by both positive and negative rays in his view. I will not go into the whole description of the zodiacal light, you can read it for yourself in the link. However, I will give one more quote here about the zodiacal light, which is “reproduced” in the terrella with the terrella itself as a cathode. From page 27

B said:
Nous avons vu comment autour de la sphère magnétique qui sert de cathode, il se forme un faisceau de rayons dans le plan de l'équateur magnétique. Je suppose qu'un faisceau pareil, mais de dimensions considérables, se trouve autour du soleil et tourne avec lui à cause de la manière dont il a été formé.

So, he could imagine that a similar disk as in his terrella chamber (Fig. 2) could exist around the sun giving rise to the zodiacal light. Indeed, on page 18 B writes:

B said:
L'on observe cette période régulièrement, qu'il y ait des taches solaires ou non; elle est bien marquée aussi bien pour un minimum que pour un maximum des taches solaires. Ce fait considéré avec ma théorie des orages polaires magnétiques appuie l'idée que l'immense disque de rayons autour du soleil tourne toujours avec lui. Daus mon ouvrage A. P., p. 623, j'ai mentionné quelques faits connus au sujet du pouvoir de la matière radiante d'absorber et de diffuser la lumière solaire. Il est concevable que les rayons hélio-cathodiques lors de leur collision avec des ions dans l'espace cosmique produisent un grand nombre d'électrons de dispersion qui peuvent être entraînés et se trouver en raisonnance avec les ondes lumineuses provenant du soleil. Il est probable que c'est de cette manière que le disque de rayons corpusculaires autour du soleil nous est visible comme une lumière zodiacale.

(taches solaires = sun spots) So, he claims that there can be a immense disk of “rays” (of corpuscules) rotating around the sun. The cathode rays (electrons) can hit ions in this disk, liberating more electrons. These can all interact with the sunlight, and if I interpret this text correctly, he steps down from the discharge model for the zodiacal light, but says it is probably scattered sun light.

Then the discussion turns to Saturn’s rings, which I will skip and on page 29 in §3 the causes de grand changements climateriques de la periode tertiaire are discussed, which I will skip too, because this was going to be an the positive and negative charges emitted by the cathode Sun, and not whether variations in the solar emission can have an effect on the climate (though interesting that B also was thinking about that).
Then a discussion about the aurora again, the particles arrive and leave the atmosphere at an estimated height of 500 km. And I think B is also describing the westward surge of a substorm on page 32.

Now B keeps on talking about the rayons cathodiques solaires, and in the time of his experiments these cathode rays were electrons and up to page 34 I have no doubt that B means electrons when he uses this term. On page 34 he refers again to this book page 591-595, where experiments are done with cathode rays of various energy (1800 and 2400 V) and shows how the energy of the cathode rays makes the location of the auroral rings on his terrella change location. He estimates the product of the magnetic field H and the larmor radius ρ and he came to the conclusion that, page 35:

B said:
De ces expériences j'ai tiré la conclusion que pour les rayons corpusculaires solaires qui pénètrent dans la zone aurorale on a :
H ρ = 3 X 106 (A. P., 595 ).
Mais j'ai admis que la valeur de Ho n'est pas toujours la meme et peut varier de 1 à 10 millions.

Then some discussion about Störmer again and then at the end of part 1, page 37:

B said:
Ce n'est que plus tard, lorsque j'eus trouvé que Hp valait 3 millions pour les rayons projetés dans la zoneaurorale, que j'eus l'idée que nous avions à faire à des rayons cathodiques très puissants que j'ai appelés les rayons hélio-cathodiques; j'ai calculé que la tension électrique négative nécessaire à la projection de ces rayons était de 600 millions de volts.

So, he needs highly energetic cathode rays, which he calls helio-cathode rays, and he calculated that the “negative electrical tension” to emit those rays would have to be 600 million Volts. B concludes the first part then with, page 37:

B said:
D'après cela, il semble que nous pouvons admettre que le soleil, en diverses circonstances, lors d'éruptions électriques fréquemment de très courte durée, peut envoyer des rayons qui atteignent la terre et pour lesquels Hp est compris entre un et cent millions.

After this, is seems that we have to admit that the sun, in various circumstances, during electric eruptions often of very short duration, may send out rays that hit the Earth and for which Hp is between one and hundred million.

End of the first part of the paper. There is no mention on why B thinks that positive and negative charges are send out from the sun, but that is not surprising, as that is not what the paper is about. This is mainly to show that Strömer is wrong by assuming that the aurora is created by positive rays.

Okay, that was part one. Part two will come later.
 
Well ben, the fact you realize that solids show up as rigid features puts you light years ahead of poor ol' GM. He's sill living in the dark ages of RD imaging. I think he forgot all about rotation or something.
Michael Mozina - I think that you missed ben's point. here is his post:
So does any non-smooth surface whatsoever, solid or not. Jupiter's clouds; Earth's clouds, Earth's aurorae; the Io plasma torus; sunspots, granules, spicules, and active regions on the Sun---all of these things will show up in a difference image of the rotating object in question. It's the stupidest possible test for "solidity".
(emphasis added)
His point is that both solid and non-solid surfaces can appear as persistent featiures in RD images. This is well known by GeeMack and anyone who thinks about how RD images are produced for more than 5 minutes.

Regardless of the outcome of that particular "test", the longevity/time isn't something you can just ignore. Even during the CME recorded in that gold LMSAL RD image, the persistence of the structures was almost entirely unaffected except in very specific key areas of the image.
I see that you are still fooled by the optical illusions in the gold LMSAL RD image. The actual features in this RD movie are
  • Flecks of moving, changing temperature corresponding to the CME event. Thie is obvious for the actual CME event as a bright flow of speckles. There is also evidence of some CME material cooling as it falls with the appearance of dark specks.
  • Areas of persistant increasing temperature.
  • Areas of persistant decreasing temperature.
The last 2 areas happen to be aligned along the flares. This means that they are side-by-side. This causes the illusion of mountain ranges that can fool the gullible.

Your misunderstanding of the nature of this RD movie also includes:
  • The original images are of activity in the corona.
    It is foolish to think that the running difference processing magically reveals features that are 1000's of kilometers below the phososphere. The optical depth of the photosphere means that less than 1 photon a year gets through it from a layer 4800 kilometers below it.
    See How can we detect the less than 1 photon per year from your iron crust? which also applies to your iron solid surface (web site) or your latest idea of an iron plasma layer (no electrical discharges!)
  • The original images are of plasma at a temperature between 600,000 K and 2,000,000 K.
    It is foolish to think that the running difference processing magically reveals material that is < 3000K (if you persist in your iron crust idea).
  • The original images basically show temperature.
    The running difference image thus show changing temperatures. They do not show shadows.
  • The original images are from the Sun where all features are interally illuminated, i.e. there is no other "sun" to cause shadows especially moving shadows.
    I have never seen any empirical evidence of coronal loops casting shadows but maybe MM can provide a citation? This means that moving shadows cannot cause changes that the running difference process would pick up.
  • The nasty thing about mis-interpreting the dark areas in the RD movie as shadows is that there would have to be light sources in the RD movie. That is impossible because the RD movie shows changes in temperature. See above why changing light sources in the original images do not create shadows.
  • There is also the interesting fact that the "shadows" in the RD movie point in just about every direction except the upper right, i.e. for some reason there are no "light sources" on the lower left.
 
Persistent patterns in RD images cannot produced by by actual features in a solid, unchanging surface. Running difference images are records of changes in the images. So a solid, unchanging surface vanishes in RD images. If you add shadows then what you see are the changes in shadows and there are no persistent patterns in the RD images.

I have made an image illustrating how you could see a solid surface in RD images.

If the flare (orange) was moving up, the light reflecting off of the mountain would be moving as you can see in this drawing based on the image in question. If your eyes could see at 171 etc., this is what you would see.
http://www.box.net/shared/kn8vgn6jpk

A RD image is just a subtraction of the previous image(s) from frame to frame. They use it to pick out the finer details of movement.

So if there is no moving light in the image the image will look the same from frame to frame. If there is it will show that.
It would be useless if it did not show useful information like details of movement from frame to frame using light.
You could be seeing the movement of the flare reflecting off of the features in question.
 
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