Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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I don't think you've fully thought this through. Supposing dark energy did show up in a laboratory test using current equipment. What do you think that would mean for cosmological ideas of dark energy?

Well, for one it would get me off your back. :)

The problem edd is that it *DOES NOT* show up here. From a skeptics perspective, you're essentially handwaving at the sky and creating a mythical sky entity that is very akin to any sky god. If there is no effect here on Earth, what makes you think you entity exists out there somewhere?

The acceleration might be real, but the notion that "dark energy" is related to that acceleration is ultimately a statement of faith in the "unseen' (in the lab). Since it's been taken a step further, and the effect is assumed to be infinitesimally small (undetectably small) on Earth, it will *FOREVER* remain a 'statement of faith".

I prefer empirical solutions to problems. I know for a fact that the most likely cause of acceleration of a plasma universe is the EM field. Its the *FIRST LOGICAL* option. If I can't explain it yet without mythical forces of nature, I'm happy to just admit my ignorance. I have no need however to "assume" that some "negative pressure dark invisible energy' thingy did it.
 
The whole fixation on my maths skills is a red herring. The problem isn't found in your math formulas, it's located in your basic fallacy laden assumptions. The claim that acceleration is "caused by dark energy" is a complete non-sequitur fallacy. There is no cause/effect between your mythical negative pressure entity and acceleration. There is an empirical cause/effect connection between acceleration and EM fields. As long as you continue to ignore these issues, what's the point of looking at the math? The whole thing is based on a logical fallacy!

But you can't possibly know that.

Sure I can. Some knowledge is simply conceptual in nature an has nothing to do with math.

After all, your qualifications to understand math at the level of an average ten year old have been challenged,

Again, this is purely a red herring (and spam at this point). My math skills are irrelevant when it comes to cause/effect empirical demonstrations. I don't have to understand all the math related to a transmission in a car to use one. I don't have to understand all the math that went into building a computer to use one. I don't have to understand all the math related to Maxwell's equations to see EM fields *DO* something in the real world. It's only because your invisible sky entities don't show up on Earth that you're insisting some "math" relates to your sky entities somewhere "out there" where I can't get to. Your sky entities are impotent on Earth and they will forever be impotent on Earth so they will forever be based of faith in sky entities that have no measurable effect on humans. That's a "religion", not empirical physics. Your problem is not related to math, it's related to your lack of a cause/effect demonstration of concept. No amount of math is going to fix your empirical physics problem.
 
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Sure I can. Some knowledge is simply conceptual in nature an has nothing to do with math.


So in your mind, a pulled-out-of-your-ass guess trumps real physics. When people tell you you're wrong, which I'm sure you've noticed pretty much everyone does, do try to remember from where you pulled your guess and what level of standards you apply to your own version of science.

Again, this is purely a red herring (and spam at this point). My math skills are irrelevant when it comes to cause/effect empirical demonstrations. I don't have to understand all the math related to a transmission in a car to use one.


You certainly do need to know the math behind the mechanical engineering to try to explain to the designers of that transmission where they've gone wrong.

I don't have to understand all the math that went into building a computer to use one.


You certainly do need to know the math behind the electrical engineering to try to explain to the designers of that computer where they've gone wrong.

I don't have to understand all the math related to Maxwell's equations to see EM fields *DO* something in the real world. It's only because your invisible sky entities don't show up on Earth that you're insisting some "math" relates to your sky entities somewhere "out there" where I can't get to. Your sky entities are impotent on Earth and they will forever be impotent on Earth so they will forever be based of faith in sky entities that have no measurable effect on humans. That's a "religion", not empirical physics. Your problem is not related to math, it's related to your lack of a cause/effect demonstration of concept. No amount of math is going to fix your empirical physics problem.


I don't have any invisible sky entities. Do you really think lying helps you make a compelling argument? Don't you find it the least bit odd that you are a known liar and you've never once been able to convince a single professional scientist that anything you have to say is more than a pile of manure? Could there be a link? Were Alfvén, Bruce, and Birkeland liars?
 
mathematical prerequisites, part 2

In my previous post on this subject, I pointed out that developing an informed opinion of the Lambda-CDM model requires some understanding of (among other things) the theory of general relativity, which requires in turn considerable facility with differential geometry.

I may have given you an impression that the necessary knowledge of differential geometry could be obtained by taking a mere two-semester sequence of graduate-level courses in that subject, using a textbook such as

Jeffrey M. Lee. Manifolds and Differential Geometry. Graduate Studies in Mathematics Volume 107, American Mathematical Society, 2009.

Before you take those two semesters of differential geometry, however, you would have to know a fair amount of mathematics as taught at the undergraduate level. From Lee's textbook, section 1.1 "Preliminaries":
To understand the material to follow, it is necessary that the reader have a good background in the following subjects.

1) Linear algebra. The reader should be familiar with the idea of the dual space of a vector space and also with the notion of a quotient vector space....

2) Point set topology. We assume familiarity with the notions of subspace topology, compactness and connectedness. The reader should know the definitions of Hausdorff topological spaces, regular spaces and normal spaces. The reader should also have been exposed to quotient topologies....

3) Abstract algebra. The reader will need a familiarity with the basics of abstract algebra at least to the level of the basic isomorphism theorems for groups and rings.

4) Multivariable calculus. The reader should be familiar with the idea that the derivative at a point p of a map between open sets of (normed) vector spaces is a linear transformation between the vector spaces....A reader who felt the need for a review could do no better than to study roughly the first half of the classic book "Calculus on Manifolds" by Michael Spivak....


Keep all those prerequisites in mind when someone who never really understood freshman calculus tells you his math skills are irrelevant to the topic of this thread.
 
What is "Empirical" Science? VIII

I prefer empirical solutions to problems.
Well, actually, no you don't. By now you should realize that the rest of us have figured you out, more or less. Just because you say that you prefer empirical solutions does not make it so. As I have pointed out before (and will continue to point out in the future), you refuse to acknowledge that you have chosen a personal, non-standard use of the word "empirical", such that when you say that you prefer an "empirical" solution, what you really mean is that you prefer a "mozperical" solution, where the word "mozperical" is substituted for the word "empirical", in order to more carefully differentiate between the commonly accepted definition and your personal re-definition of the concept of empiricism. Until you drum up enough personal integrity to actually admit that you have done this, I will continue to carry the opinion forward that you are not interested in what any normal person would call an "honest" discussion.

I have already publicly exposed your dishonesty for all to see, e.g., Honesty & What is "Empirical Science"? VII.

As for your re-definition of "emprical", it is exposed here (emphasis mine):
Question 1
Question 2
The standard definition of the word "empirical" does not require a controlled experiment, or for that matter, any kind of experiment at all. Why do you feel justified in changing the definition of a word (any word, but in particular this one), and then complaining when the rest of the world does not use it your way?
For standard usage of the word "empirical", see for instance the definition from the online Merriam-Webster dictionary.

Case in point
I quote from the book An Introduction to Scientific Research by E. Bright Wilson, Jr.; McGraw-Hill, 1952 (Dover reprint, 1990); page 27-28, section 3.7 "The Testing of Hypotheses"; emphasis from the original.

"In many cases hypotheses are so simple and their consequences so obvious that it becomes possible to test them directly. New observations on selected aspects of nature may be made, or more often an experiment can be performed for the test. There is no clear cut distinction between an experiment and a simple observation, but ordinarily in an experiment the observer interferes to some extent with nature and creates conditions or events favorable to his purpose."
Wilson says "There is no clear cut distinction between an experiment and a simple observation," and that is the way the entire scientific community currently operates. Are you now telling us that the entire scientific community is using a flawed concept of empiricism?

From a skeptics perspective, you're essentially handwaving at the sky and creating a mythical sky entity that is very akin to any sky god. If there is no effect here on Earth, what makes you think you entity exists out there somewhere?
It has nothing at all to do with a skeptic's perspective and everything to do with your own personal (and poorly considered) perspective. Armed with your personal re-definition of "empirical", now you try to hide behind the cover of a "skeptic", but you are fooling nobody but yourself. Whether or not the effect shows up here on Earth is entirely and honestly irrelevant. [size=+1]Irrelevant[/size]. It is an effect that we expect to see, and do see, in astronomical observations, and that is entirely empirical and properly scientific in every mind present except yours. You are the maverick who has chosen to abandon reason for madness around here.

Again, this is purely a red herring (and spam at this point). My math skills are irrelevant when it comes to cause/effect empirical demonstrations.
No, your math skills are directly on-point for this discussion. Mathematics & physics are indelibly intertwined, nobody can understand modern physics without the appropriate level of mathematical skill. If you lack the math skill, then you lack the physics skill, and that's the point. We know that you lack the math skill, so we also know that you lack the physics skill, and since we now know that you lack elementary skill in both math & physics, we know that you are an intellectually untrustworthy source. And that fact is highly relevant, since you explicitly claim to understand physics & science better than entire generations of people working in the field(s) with far greater experience & insight than you possess.
 
mathematical prerequisites, part 3

The importance of the mathematical prerequisites I have described in previous posts is demonstrated most vividly when someone who lacks those prerequisites attempts to argue about the Lambda-CDM model (or virtually any other area of modern physics or astronomy).

In this post, I will support Tim Thompson's response to such a person with concrete examples drawn from that person's most recent posts.

No, your math skills are directly on-point for this discussion. Mathematics & physics are indelibly intertwined, nobody can understand modern physics without the appropriate level of mathematical skill. If you lack the math skill, then you lack the physics skill, and that's the point. We know that you lack the math skill, so we also know that you lack the physics skill, and since we now know that you lack elementary skill in both math & physics, we know that you are an intellectually untrustworthy source. And that fact is highly relevant, since you explicitly claim to understand physics & science better than entire generations of people working in the field(s) with far greater experience & insight than you possess.


For example:
No. You observe "expansion" and you observe "acceleration", not "dark energy". That term is something you made up in your head and somehow in you mind you associate that term with "acceleration". Since you showed no cause/effect relationship between dark energy and acceleration, I can only assume that its a statement of faith on your part. It's exactly like a theist associating God with that same acceleration.
That paragraph demonstrates that Michael Mozina does not understand general relativity. In particular, he does not possess the knowledge of differential geometry required to understand the central law of general relativity. If Michael Mozina knew enough mathematics to discuss these things intelligently, he'd have known that acceleration is a consequence of curvature in spacetime, and that a nonzero value for the cosmological constant in the dark energy term of Einstein's field equations has consequences for the curvature of spacetime, so dark energy causes acceleration. That is a matter of physics and mathematics, not religion.

The part you 'take on faith" is your assertion that your "dark energy" entity did it. There's no connection between acceleration and "dark energy" accept in your head....The simplified version of your statement of faith goes: "Dark energy causes acceleration". In terms of empirical physics, it's a non-sequitur fallacy. In terms of your "religion", it's a "statement of faith".
No, it is a matter of physics and mathematics, not faith or religion. Because Michael Mozina does not possess any knowledge of the relevant mathematics, he is unable to distinguish between well-established science and religious faith.

The acceleration might be real, but the notion that "dark energy" is related to that acceleration is ultimately a statement of faith in the "unseen' (in the lab)....
The fact that dark energy is a possible cause of the observed acceleration is a mathematical consequence of the fundamental laws of general relativity. Because he is ignorant of the relevant mathematics and physics, Michael Mozina is reduced to an argument that is indistinguishable from other expressions of religious prejudice.

Sure I can. Some knowledge is simply conceptual in nature an has nothing to do with math.
That may be, but the connections between dark energy, acceleration, general relativity, and the Lambda-CDM model are highly mathematical.

Again, this is purely a red herring (and spam at this point). My math skills are irrelevant when it comes to cause/effect empirical demonstrations. I don't have to understand all the math related to a transmission in a car to use one. I don't have to understand all the math that went into building a computer to use one. I don't have to understand all the math related to Maxwell's equations to see EM fields *DO* something in the real world....Your problem is not related to math, it's related to your lack of a cause/effect demonstration of concept. No amount of math is going to fix your empirical physics problem.
As illustrated earlier, Michael Mozina's math skills are central to any honest discussion of his argument. At its core, his argument consists of
  • denying mathematical facts (such as the connection between dark energy and acceleration, or the compatibility of magnetic reconnection with Maxwell's equations),
  • denying the relevance of mathematical competence,
  • and denying the empirical reality of physical and astronomical observations performed by instruments on earth and in space,
  • while spamming various Internet fora with allegations that the mathematical facts and physical observations he is denying are nothing more than expressions of religious faith.
To people who know nothing about mathematics or science, modern physics and cosmology probably do look like magic.

That does not mean that modern physics and cosmology are magic, or an expression of religious faith. It means the scientific opinions of people who know nothing about mathematics or science are worthless.
 
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In my previous post on this subject, I pointed out that developing an informed opinion of the Lambda-CDM model requires some understanding of (among other things) the theory of general relativity, which requires in turn considerable facility with differential geometry.

Sure, but only *AFTER* you demonstrate your sky entities aren't figments of your collective imaginations, otherwise you're plugging an invisible sky god into a GR formula and creating a religion based on faith in the unseen.

Since GR is in no way dependent upon inflation, dark energy, or exotic forms of matter, your whole claim of gaining credibility by stuffing them into a GR formula is a non-sequitur.
 
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So in your mind, a pulled-out-of-your-ass guess trumps real physics.

No, it's the other way around. Empirical physics trumps wild negative pressure invisible metaphysical guesses.

There's no empirical link between acceleration and your mythical sky entity. It's all in your head. It's a "statement of faith in the unseen" (in the lab), just like any religious form of faith. If you want to have a "religion", that's fine, but stop calling it "science".
 
Well, actually, no you don't.

Yes Tim I do. I know that EM fields accelerate plasma. If I had to make a wild guess at what causes a plasma universe to accelerate, I'd guess it was the EM field or external gravity of some kind.

I'll stick with what works and fess of up to my ignorance when required. I don't need to have faith in invisible sky entities that I can never hope to empirically verify. If you want to have faith in an invisible negative pressure sky entity or two, that's fine by me, but at least have the common decency to admit that it's a "religion". Your dark energy entity is at least as useless on Earth as any pantheon sky god.

The whole problem is directly related to the fact it's a no show in the lab. I could doubt your math related to a CPU, or the math related to a car engine all day long, but one "test of concept" can prove me right or wrong. All you have to do turn on the engine and drive off and any doubts are instantly settled. It's only because your sky entity is impotent on Earth that you're having an impossible time with this issue. It's not my fault you built your religion around "faith in the unseen". It's not my fault you can't demonstrate your case physically. I didn't force you to do that. There's no point in blaming me for it, or denying that is a "problem" with your theory either. You can persist if you like, but your sky entity is forever going to remain impotent on Earth and no amount of handwaving at the sky and adding math is going to fix that basic problem and flaw in your theory.
 
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That is what I said
  • we observe ("see") light and so deduce stars.
  • we observe ("see") acceleration and so deduce dark energy.
The stars/dark energy are causes of the light/acceleration.

No, you measure "acceleration". Never once has your dark energy entity accelerated anything.
Yes we measure acceleration. Dark energy is a possible set of causes that could have accelerated everything.

No, nature "accelerates".
No, the universe displays the effect of acceleration. Dark energy is a set of causes that for that acceleration.

The part you 'take on faith" is your assertion that your "dark energy" entity did it.
...usual MM-think rant...
No part is taken on faith. Learn to read MM:

Let's try this again.
  1. We can "see" dark energy in exactly the same way that we "see" a star. We detect its effects (acceleration for dark energy, light for stars.
  2. We can measure dark energy.
  3. Dark energy exists in nature.
  4. We do not jave to take it on faith. We can measure it at any time.
That is dumb, MM.

No one has really stated that except possibly me when I dumbed things down in a futile attempt to get down to your approprate level of education.


The statement should be "acceleration happens (an effect), a possible set of causes for that effect is dark energy". This comes from a really simple bit of sequitur logic
  1. Assume that every effect has a cause.
  2. The measured acceleration is an effect.
  3. Thus the acceleration has a cause.
We have many hypotheses for that cause. The most parsimonious one that fits the observations is a non-zero cosmological constant in GR. There are a set of hypotheses that also involve GR (or a replacement for GR like string theory). These are collectively known as dark energy.
There is no faith there - just the application of simple logic.

One more time MM:
  1. Assume that every effect has a cause.
  2. The measured acceleration is an effect.
  3. Thus the acceleration has a cause
  4. We call a set of possible set of causes that share certain properties: dark energy.
I cannot make it any simpler.
 
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What is "Empirical" Science? IX

I prefer empirical solutions to problems.
Well, actually, no you don't.
Yes Tim I do.
Well, actually, no you don't. Lest we forget ...
By now you should realize that the rest of us have figured you out, more or less. Just because you say that you prefer empirical solutions does not make it so. As I have pointed out before (and will continue to point out in the future), you refuse to acknowledge that you have chosen a personal, non-standard use of the word "empirical", such that when you say that you prefer an "empirical" solution, what you really mean is that you prefer a "mozperical" solution, where the word "mozperical" is substituted for the word "empirical", in order to more carefully differentiate between the commonly accepted definition and your personal re-definition of the concept of empiricism.
So, in reality, you prefer the mozperical solutions to problems, and not the properly empirical solutions.

The whole problem is directly related to the fact it's a no show in the lab.
That is no problem at all, neither "whole" nor of any other kind, as long as we restrict ourselves to a properly empirical chain of reasoning. However, if we descend into unreasonable mozpericism, it is a real problem. But since you are the world's leading expert, and indeed the world's sole practitioner of mozpericism, it is a problem for you & you alone.

Lest we forget ...
Question 2
The standard definition of the word "empirical" does not require a controlled experiment, or for that matter, any kind of experiment at all. Why do you feel justified in changing the definition of a word (any word, but in particular this one), and then complaining when the rest of the world does not use it your way?
For standard usage of the word "empirical", see for instance the definition from the online Merriam-Webster dictionary.

Case in point
I quote from the book An Introduction to Scientific Research by E. Bright Wilson, Jr.; McGraw-Hill, 1952 (Dover reprint, 1990); page 27-28, section 3.7 "The Testing of Hypotheses"; emphasis from the original.

"In many cases hypotheses are so simple and their consequences so obvious that it becomes possible to test them directly. New observations on selected aspects of nature may be made, or more often an experiment can be performed for the test. There is no clear cut distinction between an experiment and a simple observation, but ordinarily in an experiment the observer interferes to some extent with nature and creates conditions or events favorable to his purpose."
Wilson says "There is no clear cut distinction between an experiment and a simple observation," and that is the way the entire scientific community currently operates. Are you now telling us that the entire scientific community is using a flawed concept of empiricism?

As far as science & true empiricism is concerned, the "no show" in the lab is a good thing, not a bad thing, an advantage, not a problem, and is if anything, evidence in favor of the more exotic "dark energy" interpretations for the origin of the cosmological acceleration. It's an advantage because we know that the cause must produce an effect that is too small per unit distance to measure in any lab with today's technology, and maybe an effect that small is intrinsically unmeasurable over laboratory distance scales under any circumstances. So, one thing we can be sure of, is that anything that produces a measurable effect in any real laboratory cannot be responsible for the cosmological acceleration.

And so, Mozina tells us ...
I know that EM fields accelerate plasma. If I had to make a wild guess at what causes a plasma universe to accelerate, I'd guess it was the EM field or external gravity of some kind.
And we hear the booming voice of ignorance once again. Carefully remember what I just said ... "anything that produces a measurable effect in any real laboratory cannot be responsible for the cosmological acceleration." If Mozina knew what he was talking about, he would not even suggest electromagnetism, which we already know is solidly ruled out by observation. And we have already seen that "external gravity" is Mozina's attempt to appeal to a cause that lies outside the real physical universe. Causes outside the universe do not make themselves apparent in controlled laboratory experiments, and therefore violate the fundamental requirements of mozpericism.

So in the end, not only does Mozina re-define the concept of empiricism to coddle his own religious doctrine of faith, he is so anti-scientific in his views that he comes unhinged at last, and even rejects both empiricism and his own mozpericism. I can only guess that he will appeal in the end to some strange fantasy game version of "fizziks". What else is left?
 
[...]

Michael Mozina said:
I don't have to understand all the math related to Maxwell's equations to see EM fields *DO* something in the real world. It's only because your invisible sky entities don't show up on Earth that you're insisting some "math" relates to your sky entities somewhere "out there" where I can't get to. Your sky entities are impotent on Earth and they will forever be impotent on Earth so they will forever be based of faith in sky entities that have no measurable effect on humans. That's a "religion", not empirical physics. Your problem is not related to math, it's related to your lack of a cause/effect demonstration of concept. No amount of math is going to fix your empirical physics problem.
I don't have any invisible sky entities. Do you really think lying helps you make a compelling argument? Don't you find it the least bit odd that you are a known liar and you've never once been able to convince a single professional scientist that anything you have to say is more than a pile of manure? Could there be a link? Were Alfvén, Bruce, and Birkeland liars?
I think there's overwhelming empirical evidence to support the hypothesis that MM frequently, and consciously, lies.

However, there's also a profound gulf in basic communication; wrt this: "I don't have to understand all the math related to Maxwell's equations to see EM fields *DO* something in the real world."

What are these "EM fields" of which MM speaks? What is it that one actually observes, empirically, in the lab, in controlled experiments?

Well, there's fridge magnets, electric motors, x-rays, CCDs, radio, discharges, polarised light, waveguides, particle-wave duality, and a lot more besides.

What is it about these amazingly different phenomena that permits us to describe (many of) them in terms of "EM fields", and electromagnetism in general?

The answer is math; specifically Maxwell's equations and QED. Sadly, MM does not understand this; to him, apparently, all these diverse phenomena are, in a very basic, intuitive, sense, "electromagnetism". But could MM demonstrate the deep relationship between, say, a fridge magnet and a double-slit experiment? Without maths? I don't know, but I have my doubts.

In other words, "EM fields" exist only wrt the math that describes them, Maxwell's equations, say. Shorn of the math, what is there? Only a diverse list of well-observed phenomena, with few, or no, connections between and among them.

Now MM may be quite sincere in believing that he can, in fact, understand what "EM fields" are, or what electromagnetism is. However, because he does not recognise - even refuses to recognise - that unless and until he grasps the math, what he believes is a delusion, a fantasy. In this restricted sense, MM is not lying.
 
That is what I said

we observe ("see") light and so deduce stars.

That's reasonable since our own star emits light that we can directly measure.

we observe ("see") acceleration and so deduce dark energy.

This is a non-sequitur fallacy. There is no empirical link between acceleration and what you're calling 'dark energy'. Your dark energy entity is a "statement of faith" in the "unseen". Your dark energy entity is as impotent in the lab as Zeus. The only connection to either sky entity is a handwave and an allegation.

Whereas an ordinary EM field has a direct empirical connection to acceleration, your impotent sky entity does not. Do you recognize and accept that distinction, yes or no?
 
I think there's overwhelming empirical evidence to support the hypothesis that MM frequently, and consciously, lies.

The only one lying around here is you, and you're only lying to yourself. This "destroy the messenger" style of debate is the first "lie". It's not an honest debate tactic. It's a pitifully weak method of debate, but apparently it's all you've got.

That is apparently due to the fact that your invisible sky entity is completely impotent in the lab, just like all sky entities, and somehow it's all my fault. The lie here is directly related to your "bash the messenger' style of debate and your refusal to acknowledge a serious and critical flaw in your theory. Since you refuse to acknowledge the flaw, you instead attack the messenger. That's the lie. That's the BS. That's the stuff that is eventually going to come back to haunt you.

EM fields are a known empirical 'cause' of plasma acceleration. "Dark energy" is a figment of your collective imagination and amounts to nothing more than a statement of ignorance as to the actual empirical cause. For all you know you're going to end up right back in the EM/external gravity camp sooner or later. Why should I wallow around in ignorance with you while you figure it out?
 
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The only one lying around here is you, and you're only lying to yourself. This "destroy the messenger" style of debate is the first "lie". It's not an honest debate tactic. It's a pitifully weak method of debate, but apparently it's all you've got.


If you don't want people to catch you lying, stop lying. And if you insist on lying, don't be a pussy about it. Have the decency to admit it. If you think lying is part of a reasonable strategy to support your insane crackpot notions, explain how please. If not, knock it off. Oh, were Alfvén, Birkeland, and Bruce liars, Michael? I've asked this several times. Why are you being so steadfastly ignorant?
 
Maxwell's equations and magnetic reconnection

In recent days, Michael Mozina has cited Maxwell's equations in alleged support of two extremely silly claims he has made concerning magnetic reconnection:

Extremely silly claim #1: Maxwell's equations can be used to "convert all the B's to E's" in any paper on magnetic reconnection.

Extremely silly claim #2: Magnetic reconnection is forbidden by Maxwell's equations, hence pseudoscience.

The first of those extremely silly claims is incorrect in a straightforwardly trivial sense, but provides insight into the "thinking" that led to Mozina's second and more profoundly silly claim. In this post I will use freshman-level calculus and physics to explain why both of the above claims are extremely silly.

Maxwell's equations are one of the more important topics in freshman physics. They are usually covered late in the freshman year, after students have had time to encounter vector derivatives in calculus. Here, for future reference, are Maxwell's equations (in vacuum) from a typical freshman-level textbook, using nabla/del notations for the div and curl operators:

[latex]
\begin{align}
\nabla \times \hbox{{\bf E}} & = - \frac{1}{c} \frac{\partial\hbox{{\bf B}}}{\partial t} \\
\nabla \times \hbox{{\bf B}} & = \frac{1}{c} \frac{\partial\hbox{{\bf E}}}{\partial t} + \frac{4\pi}{c}\hbox{{\bf J}} \\
\nabla \cdot \hbox{{\bf E}} & = 4\pi\rho \\
\nabla \cdot \hbox{{\bf B}} & = 0
\end{align}
[/latex]

Extremely silly claim #1 was part of Mozina's claim that the details missing from his pet "theory" of circuit reconnection would be provided by a mathematical transformation of the equations that appear in any paper on magnetic reconnection:
Why wait for me? Just take any paper on MR theory, convert all the B's to E's and you'll have it. I'm not your math mommy.


When I pointed out that changing all the B's to E's would contradict Maxwell's equations, Mozina pretended to have been talking about a more sophisticated transformation based on Maxwell's equations:
First off I suggested you start with a paper on MR theory, not Gauss's Law. By the term "convert" I *ASSUMED* that an intelligent individual like yourself would immediately understand that you would need to USE MAXWELL"S EQUATIONS to convert from one orientation to the other (B->E).


I then suggested that Mozina demonstrate his alleged transformation on a simple example taken from one of the standard papers on MR theory. He ignored that challenge, even after he gave me cause to repeat it.

A casual reader of this thread might think my challenge was intended to dramatize the fact that Mozina lacks the mathematical chops to perform his alleged transformation on any real-world example. I must admit that I knew Mozina would be unable to demonstrate his alleged transformation, but that didn't have anything to do with Mozina's incompetence. I knew Mozina wouldn't be able to do it because it can't be done:

Theorem. In general, the electric field E cannot be reconstructed from the magnetic field B.

Sketch of proof: We can describe two distinct physical situations that have exactly the same magnetic field B but wildly differing electric fields E. (Once an example of that has been described, its generality becomes obvious.)

Anyone who has taken freshman physics should be able to fill in the details of that proof; doing so is a typical homework exercise or test question in freshman physics.

In short, extremely silly claim #1 is extremely silly because the alleged transformation is impossible.

Had Mozina's claim referred to the current density field J instead of the electric field E, the transformation would have been possible provided the partial derivative of the electric field E with respect to time is known independently. That transformation is expressed by the second of Maxwell's equations (as stated above), which is known as Ampere's law with Maxwell's correction.

Several of our more knowledgeable posters gave Mozina a free ride by assuming he had meant J instead of E, and proceeded to explain that (because of Maxwell's correction) even that transformation is impossible without additional knowledge. I did not give Mozina that free ride, because I have seen no evidence that Mozina even understands the difference between the electric field E and the current density field J.

The distinction between E and J is pretty basic. Ignorance of that distinction implies vast ignorance of freshman physics. Now that I have said this, of course, Mozina may claim to have understood that difference all along; if so, then why did his 10 to 20 subsequent posts on this subject never reveal any hint of a clue about that vital technical distinction?

Mozina's extremely silly claim #2 involves a more profound error:
That same lack of a conceptual understanding of subatomic physics shows up in your great love of what Alfven himself called "pseudoscience". You can't physically tell me the difference between induction and magnetic reconnection, or ordinary particle collisions in plasma. Instead you simply cling to the concept in spite of the fact that every electrical textbook on the planet points out that magnetic fields form as a complete and full continuum, without beginning and without end. They are physically *INCAPABLE* of "disconnecting" or "reconnecting" to any other magnetic line. Induction is not "magnetic reconnection". Circuit reorientation is not "magnetic reconnection". Alfven rejected that whole concept as pseudoscience his *ENTIRE* career, yet you prattle on about it in paper after paper.

There's never a problem with your math, just a serious problem with the physics. What's the point in discussing the math when your entire physical premise is based upon a non-sequitur?
Mozina claims that "every electrical textbook on the planet" points out his highlighted phrase, but a Google search on the highlighted phrase brings up only this thread. If you leave off the "without beginning and without end" part of the phrase, a Google search will bring up this thread and one of Mozina's previous posts at another forum. In short, Mozina is the only authority for that highlighted phrase.

It appears that Mozina's highlighted phrase represents his limited personal understanding of the implications of Gauss's law for magnetism (the fourth of Maxwell's four equations above), as dumbed down by textbooks that don't use calculus because they're written for poets and other students in non-technical majors.

Although it mentions three technical terms ("magnetic fields", "complete", and "continuum"), Mozina's highlighted prose is actually quite vague. Suppose, for example, that we want to know whether there is any magnetic analogue to electric charge. Does the highlighted prose tell us? Beats me. On the other hand, the five symbols of ∇∙B=0 tell us the answer is no. Suppose we want to know whether the magnetic field could be written as the curl of a vector potential. Does the highlighted prose tell us? I don't think so. Yet ∇∙B=0 tells us the answer is yes.

The equation evidently contains a great deal more information than Mozina's highlighted prose, but Mozina relies on his highlighted prose even when he makes the mathematical (and radically incorrect) claim that magnetic fields
are physically *INCAPABLE* of "disconnecting" or "reconnecting" to any other magnetic line.
Instead of asking Mozina's highlighted prose whether that's true, let's ask Gauss's law for magnetism, which appears to have inspired the dumbed-down prose. That law answered our previous questions, but it doesn't answer this one.

The reason ∇∙B=0 has nothing to say about magnetic reconnection is that magnetic reconnection involves the changes in B over time, and the equation ∇∙B=0 doesn't have anything to do with time. It doesn't even mention time. That means the equation is true at every instant of time, but it says nothing about how B changes over time.

Maxwell's first equation above (Faraday's law of induction) does involve the change of B over time, and its mention of the electric field brings in Maxwell's second equation above (Ampere's law with Maxwell's correction). Although those two equations state certain relationships, and suggest that both the magnetic and electric fields should be differentiable with respect to time, those equations most definitely do not rule out magnetic reconnection.

That's a mathematical fact. We can prove it by constructing solutions of Maxwell's equations that exhibit magnetic reconnection. (The equations I quoted in my challenge to Mozina were part of one such solution.) The existence of solutions to Maxwell's equations that involve magnetic reconnection prove, beyond any shadow of any doubt, that Mozina's extremely silly claim #2 is simply incorrect.

Epilogue. We know Mozina's claims are incorrect because we can use mathematics and the accepted laws of physics to prove they are incorrect.

From the nature of Mozina's incorrect claims, we can conclude he does not understand mathematics or physics, even at the level of freshman calculus and freshman physics.

It is important to understand that our rejection of Mozina's claims does not depend upon our knowledge of Mozina's ignorance. We do not conclude that his claims are incorrect because he doesn't understand math or physics; that would be a fallacy. We conclude instead that, because his claims are incorrect, he does not understand math or physics.

When Mozina made the extremely silly claims I have dissected in this post, he was blowing smoke. Because he understands neither calculus nor freshman physics, blowing smoke is all he can do.
 
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It is important to understand that our rejection of Mozina's claims does not depend upon our knowledge of Mozina's ignorance. We do not conclude that his claims are incorrect because he doesn't understand math or physics; that would be a fallacy. We conclude instead that, because his claims are incorrect, he does not understand math or physics.
Key point. Excellent post.
 
Hey everybody! I'm coming in late, here. I've taken the last five days (!) to read this thread, front to back. It's been considerably enlightening and informative. I do have a question, though. How can we be certain that Michael Mozina is real?

Let me clarify a bit here, because just saying that sounds odd to me, and I wrote it. What I mean is, how can we be sure this is a real person, and not some performance artist doing this for laughs? After reading all his posts from the day he's hopped in here, I've been noticing that each and every one of his replies is finely tuned to appear as though it is a caricature of a pseudoscience loving crackpot. A caricature, I say, and I think, not real. There's someone writing these posts, certainly. But I don't think the person we imagine is the one doing the writing. It's almost as if it's being written by someone playing a part. Who knows, it's possible, and in my mind, quite likely that this Mozina person is just someone's hobby to inject a few laughs into his or her day.

I don't know. I have my doubts.

But anyways, I do have a vague question regarding the topic at hand: (Keep in mind I'm a layman at science. Interested in it, but only educated up to the high school level, though hopefully shortly I'll be remedying that!) Under what we know now of the universe, is it possible that there are sections of it that obey different physical laws? If so, how would we know just from observations?
 
Hey everybody! I'm coming in late, here. I've taken the last five days (!) to read this thread, front to back. It's been considerably enlightening and informative. I do have a question, though. How can we be certain that Michael Mozina is real?

Let me clarify a bit here, because just saying that sounds odd to me, and I wrote it. What I mean is, how can we be sure this is a real person, and not some performance artist doing this for laughs? After reading all his posts from the day he's hopped in here, I've been noticing that each and every one of his replies is finely tuned to appear as though it is a caricature of a pseudoscience loving crackpot. A caricature, I say, and I think, not real. There's someone writing these posts, certainly. But I don't think the person we imagine is the one doing the writing. It's almost as if it's being written by someone playing a part. Who knows, it's possible, and in my mind, quite likely that this Mozina person is just someone's hobby to inject a few laughs into his or her day.

I don't know. I have my doubts.

But anyways, I do have a vague question regarding the topic at hand: (Keep in mind I'm a layman at science. Interested in it, but only educated up to the high school level, though hopefully shortly I'll be remedying that!) Under what we know now of the universe, is it possible that there are sections of it that obey different physical laws? If so, how would we know just from observations?
I have had similar thoughts. Sometimes it's hard to believe anyone could appear to have a real interest in physics and cosmology and hold such unscientific and illogical opinions. It is even more irrational that he does not pay attention to nor show respect for those who do have genuine knowledge in these fields. It could very well be a spoof!
I'll allow the cosmologists answer your second question, but I do think those parts of the universe we can observe appear to obey the same laws of physics we know. Regarding the unobservable parts of the universe ...?
 
Michael Mozina's ignorance of the empirical link between acceleration and dark energy

That's reasonable since our own star emits light that we can directly measure.

This is a non-sequitur fallacy. There is no empirical link between acceleration and what you're calling 'dark energy'.
That is over the edge into the realm of stupidity, Michael Mozina. Dark energy is actually called ... dark energy :jaw-dropp!


We have exactly the same empirical link between stars/acceleration and lighgt/dark energy. That empirical link is the measured laws of physiucs. Since it is obvious that you remain ignorance of this here is it again for the umpteenth time:
  • We detect light from points in the sky. This light is an effect. We call the most probable cause of this effect stars. The empirical link between stars and light is QM.
  • We detect that the rate of expansion of the universe is accelerating. This acceleration is an effect. We call a set of possible causes for this effect, dark energy. The empircal link between acceleration and dark energy is GR.
One more time MM. It is really simple sequitur logic.
  1. Assume that every effect has a cause.
  2. The measured acceleration is an effect.
  3. Thus the acceleration has a cause
  4. We call a set of possible set of causes that share certain properties: dark energy.
I cannot make it any simpler.

Since you have made it abundantly clear that you are incapable of understanding this really simple stuff and will just keep demonstrating this ignorance for the world to see, this is the last time that I will address this point.

ETA
The faulty science in the following has been pointed out to Michael Mozina many times before, especially his stupidity of calling possible causes (dark energy) of something that affects the entire universe, "impotent". Unfortunately he has some kind of mental block that prevents him from understanding this.
Whereas an ordinary EM field has a direct empirical connection to acceleration, your impotent sky entity does not. Do you recognize and accept that distinction, yes or no?
I do not have any "impotent sky entity". You may have delusions about a "impotent sky entity" in your head but there is no such thing in science.
Your ignorance that dark energy has nothing to do with a religious deity is still astounding through. This persistent delusion is just confirming that the answer to Are you aware that you are still showing the symptoms of a crank? remains no.

Whereas an ordinary EM field has a direct empirical connection to acceleration. A cosmological EM field slows down the expansion of the universe. We detect the opposite effect. Thus a cosmological EM field is not a possible cause of the observed acceleration.

Whereas an ordinary gravitational field has a direct empirical connection to acceleration. A gravitational field that includes a non-zero cosmological constant (or one of several other fields added to GR) speeds up the expansion of the universe. We detect this happening. Thus dark energy is a set of possible cuases of the acceleration.

Do you recognize and accept that distinction, yes or no?
 
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Let me clarify a bit here, because just saying that sounds odd to me, and I wrote it. What I mean is, how can we be sure this is a real person, and not some performance artist doing this for laughs?

If it's a performance artist, he's quite dedicated to the persona.

He's managed to get his name attached to some papers by a professor from Rolla, Missouri (the papers are crap, but they exist), and there's a web page for a small business that Michael Mozina runs. So there is evidence external to this debate that a person by the name "Michael Mozina" exists.

In principle, this person could just be pulling our collective legs. But I don't think so. This has been going on for too long, and while Michael's beliefs are absurd, they're consistent (in the sense that he continues to express the same ideas, not in the sense that they form a logically coherent picture). I don't think a performance artist would have both the endurance and consistency of someone with real delusions.

But anyways, I do have a vague question regarding the topic at hand: (Keep in mind I'm a layman at science. Interested in it, but only educated up to the high school level, though hopefully shortly I'll be remedying that!) Under what we know now of the universe, is it possible that there are sections of it that obey different physical laws? If so, how would we know just from observations?

Yes, it's possible. Whether or not its detectable depends on exactly how you think the laws change. I don't remember the details, but certain sorts of changes (like varying speed of light) should leave signatures that would be observable, and which we don't detect. I think stuff like changing ratios in atomic emission line energies.
 
Distant laws of physics

How can we be certain that Michael Mozina is real?
As Ziggurat says, we have evidence that he is not that particular kind of fake person. We do have 4 papers appearing in 2005 and 1 in 2009 by Mozina (Mozina papers linked here), and he runs his own website The Surface of the Sun where he promotes his silly idea about an iron laden sun. And of course he is quite industrious, posting on many boards over several years. Quite an obsession for a "not-real" person.

Under what we know now of the universe, is it possible that there are sections of it that obey different physical laws? If so, how would we know just from observations?
We assume that the entire observable universe obeys the same fundamental laws of physics. While we can't say that we know this for a fact (hence it does qualify as an assumption), we can say both that it is a reasonable assumption and that there are no known observations that are inconsistent with this assumption. Keep in mind that in saying all this, we must remember that there is no good reason to assume that we actually know what all of those fundamental laws of physics are.

One good way to test this assumption is spectroscopy. We can study the spectra of atoms & molecules in great detail in laboratory settings, and then compare those observations with astronomical observations of atoms & molecules that are very far away. There are no apparent exceptions to the rule that those distant atoms & molecules share precisely the same spectral characteristics as the atoms & molecules we observe in laboratories. Those spectral characteristics are know to be quite sensitive to the form of the laws of physics, so that determination is strong evidence that the laws of physics (at least the laws of atomic & molecular physics, and quantum mechanics) are of the same form far away as they are nearby, but whether of not the "fundamental constants" such as the fine structure constant are the same everywhere is a matter of debate at the moment.

Another good way to probe the distant laws of physics is through gravity. Here the dark matter problem has brought the law of gravity under discussion. Are the observed effects caused by additional matter that we just can't see (dark matter), or are they the result of law of gravity slightly different than we thought (modified gravity), or perhaps some mix of the two? In this case, it's not that we think the law of gravity is different there than it is here, but more that the true law of gravity might include a long range component that we have not been able in the past to see with enough precision to detect. But the assumption that there is more matter than we can readily see is much more accepted at the moment, primarily because it is a much simpler assumption than requiring the law of gravity to be modified, and that observation thus far is consistent with this simpler assumption.

So the bottom line really is that we can see the universe, starting here and all the way out to many billions of light years distance. Over those distances, our observations are consistent with the fundamental assumption that the laws of physics billions of light years away are the same in form as they are here.
 
Hey everybody! I'm coming in late, here. I've taken the last five days (!) to read this thread, front to back. It's been considerably enlightening and informative. I do have a question, though. How can we be certain that Michael Mozina is real?

Let me clarify a bit here, because just saying that sounds odd to me, and I wrote it. What I mean is, how can we be sure this is a real person, and not some performance artist doing this for laughs? After reading all his posts from the day he's hopped in here, I've been noticing that each and every one of his replies is finely tuned to appear as though it is a caricature of a pseudoscience loving crackpot. A caricature, I say, and I think, not real. There's someone writing these posts, certainly. But I don't think the person we imagine is the one doing the writing. It's almost as if it's being written by someone playing a part. Who knows, it's possible, and in my mind, quite likely that this Mozina person is just someone's hobby to inject a few laughs into his or her day.

I don't know. I have my doubts.


He's real. This has been going on for years, since 2002 at least. His arguments from ignorance, arguments from incredulity, arguments from lies, deflecting the burden of proof, his world class evasion techniques, his refusal to answer simple direct questions, his disdain for legitimate science, his math phobia, his hero worship of dead scientists, all of it. Nothing Michael presents as an argument here is new, not even sorta new. It's all reruns of reruns, Gilligan's Island and I Love Lucy, but only funny in the most pathetic way.
 
I've taken the last five days (!) to read this thread, front to back.

Dear god.

How can we be certain that Michael Mozina is real?

I think it would be very easy to write a Mozbot that could seamlessly take over for the real live Mozina (assuming there is one, that is). Any self-respecting performance artist, on the other hand, would long since have gone insane.

Under what we know now of the universe, is it possible that there are sections of it that obey different physical laws? If so, how would we know just from observations?

Yes, it is. In fact in some modern theories one expects such regions to exist (more precisely, the "low energy" laws of physics vary from region to region - but all the different versions are governed by a single unified theory that simply has many different possible phases). If we come in contact with such a region, we could learn about it. But if it's too far away, we're out of luck.
 
He's real. This has been going on for years, since 2002 at least. His arguments from ignorance, arguments from incredulity, arguments from lies, deflecting the burden of proof, his world class evasion techniques, his refusal to answer simple direct questions, his disdain for legitimate science, his math phobia, his hero worship of dead scientists, all of it. Nothing Michael presents as an argument here is new, not even sorta new. It's all reruns of reruns, Gilligan's Island and I Love Lucy, but only funny in the most pathetic way.

Gasp! If Dante were alive today he would have a Mozina level!:degrin:
 
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Honesty II

I think there's overwhelming empirical evidence to support the hypothesis that MM frequently, and consciously, lies.
The only one lying around here is you, and you're only lying to yourself. This "destroy the messenger" style of debate is the first "lie". It's not an honest debate tactic. It's a pitifully weak method of debate, but apparently it's all you've got.
Is it not somewhat ironic that, in the midst of accusing someone else of lying, Mozina lies? Reading this, someone might think that poor Mozina suffers the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, nobly presenting real science in the face of peasants who never say or do anything, except to revert to personal assaults on him to avoid any real discussion. But of course the real truth is quite the opposite, which Mozina surely knows. It is Mozina who so consistently presents pseudo-scientific word-salad arguments and so consistently reverts to personal insults in order to avoid any real discussion.

Mozina says, "It's not an honest debate tactic", but as I have already pointed out in detail (e.g., Honesty, What is "Empirical Science"? VII, What is "Empirical Science"? IV), it is Mozina who dishonestly refuses to acknowledge his wholesale re-definition of the basic concept of empiricism, just to avoid any meaningful discussion.

Mozina says, " ... but apparently it's all you've got". Really? see, for instance, W.D. Clinger's posts Maxwell's equations and magnetic reconnection, mathematical prerequisites, mathematical prerequisites, part 2, or mathematical prerequisites, part 3. Is there really nothing there except egregious personal insult? Or is there a concrete discussion of real science, which Mozina has thus far chosen to ignore?

And what about my own posts? See, for instance, Dark Energy and Empirical Science II (and the many posts linked therein) or Dark Matter and Science V (and the many posts linked therein). And my posts on magnetic reconnection, e.g., Magnetic Reconnection Redux XI, Magnetic Reconnection Redux X, or Comments on Magnetic Reconnection III. And my posts on the iron sun idea, e.g., No Iron "Surface" for the Sun, The Great Iron Layer or Iron Sun Surface Thermodynamically Impossible V. Are these posts nothing but personal ad-hominem attacks of no other substance? Or perhaps there is some real science content, to which Mozina has never made any viable response?

There are many more examples from many more posters, all of whom have dealt fairly with Mozina, only to be repaid with insults and then being ignored.

The pitifully weak, dishonest debating around here comes from Mozina, and Mozina alone. He will not acknowledge his blatant re-definition of the concept of empiricism, while at the same time accusing others of not being empirical because they do not conform to his prejudiced version of same. His choice to replace genuine, honest inquiry and rational science with a prejudiced, irrational, infallible doctrine of faith is indeed his choice. He has nothing to complain about when it is his own free choice that brings no comfort. All he has to do is change to the extent of preferring an honest & open inquiry. It's amazing how fast something like that will change the circumstances of any discussion.
 
Maybe this fascinating discussion, of quantum metastability events and vacuum bubbles, could be taken to a different (new) thread?
 
GeeMack said:
[...]
Michael Mozina said:
I don't have to understand all the math related to Maxwell's equations to see EM fields *DO* something in the real world. It's only because your invisible sky entities don't show up on Earth that you're insisting some "math" relates to your sky entities somewhere "out there" where I can't get to. Your sky entities are impotent on Earth and they will forever be impotent on Earth so they will forever be based of faith in sky entities that have no measurable effect on humans. That's a "religion", not empirical physics. Your problem is not related to math, it's related to your lack of a cause/effect demonstration of concept. No amount of math is going to fix your empirical physics problem.
I don't have any invisible sky entities. Do you really think lying helps you make a compelling argument? Don't you find it the least bit odd that you are a known liar and you've never once been able to convince a single professional scientist that anything you have to say is more than a pile of manure? Could there be a link? Were Alfvén, Bruce, and Birkeland liars?
I think there's overwhelming empirical evidence to support the hypothesis that MM frequently, and consciously, lies.

However, there's also a profound gulf in basic communication; wrt this: "I don't have to understand all the math related to Maxwell's equations to see EM fields *DO* something in the real world."

What are these "EM fields" of which MM speaks? What is it that one actually observes, empirically, in the lab, in controlled experiments?

Well, there's fridge magnets, electric motors, x-rays, CCDs, radio, discharges, polarised light, waveguides, particle-wave duality, and a lot more besides.

What is it about these amazingly different phenomena that permits us to describe (many of) them in terms of "EM fields", and electromagnetism in general?

The answer is math; specifically Maxwell's equations and QED. Sadly, MM does not understand this; to him, apparently, all these diverse phenomena are, in a very basic, intuitive, sense, "electromagnetism". But could MM demonstrate the deep relationship between, say, a fridge magnet and a double-slit experiment? Without maths? I don't know, but I have my doubts.

In other words, "EM fields" exist only wrt the math that describes them, Maxwell's equations, say. Shorn of the math, what is there? Only a diverse list of well-observed phenomena, with few, or no, connections between and among them.

Now MM may be quite sincere in believing that he can, in fact, understand what "EM fields" are, or what electromagnetism is. However, because he does not recognise - even refuses to recognise - that unless and until he grasps the math, what he believes is a delusion, a fantasy. In this restricted sense, MM is not lying.
There's something deeply ironic that lurked just below the surface, in my post; ironic wrt MM's "EM fields", electromagnetism, and MM's apparent delusion/fantasy.

What is it?

Why it's none other than our fave - not at all invisible - friend, the Casimir effect! :D

Here is an example of something quintessentially mozperical (thanks to Tim Thompson for this handy term): it is demonstrated in the lab, under controlled conditions, right here on Earth.

Better: it is an exquisite example of "see[ing] EM fields *DO* something in the real world"! :)

Even better: the "EM fields" cause acceleration!! :eek:

So where's the irony? Well, in MM's telling of this experiment, the acceleration is not caused by "EM fields"; indeed, in at least one of MM's telling of this (i.e. his "explanation"), there are no "EM fields" present at all.

But how do we *know* that "EM fields" are *DOING* something in this (real world) experiment? Well, we know because we understand "all the math related to Maxwell's equations"1. Without understanding that math, we'd have no way to tell (short of some sort of religious intuition).

And to get to that understanding, we need to use the concept of pressure; and to use that concept, we need to have a quantitative, objective, independently verifiable, robust definition of pressure.

And that definition, of necessity, involves math.

And we all know that MM has shown - many times, in many threads here - that he does not even understand the necessity of such a definition, much less accept the one found in standard textbooks.

In short, in at least one case, MM cannot "see EM fields *DO[ING]* something in the real world", even when it is a perfect examples of mozpericism.

1 Actually, QED, since the Casimir effect is a quantum-world phenomenon; however, at the level I'm discussing this, the fine details are not relevant ... all I'm doing is linking an observed (mozperical!) phenomenon to "electromagnetism", and showing that MM's oft repeated stance is internally inconsistent (and worse).
 
That is over the edge into the realm of stupidity, Michael Mozina. Dark energy is actually called ... dark energy :jaw-dropp!

Your statement is meaningless RC. The statement "dark energy is the 'cause' of acceleration" is a "statement of faith" in your dark religion. There is no empirical cause/effect link between acceleration and "dark energy'. You could call it RC's magic energy. That doesn't mean that RC's magic energy is real or is actually the empirical "cause' of anything.
 
I believe they call it Dark Energy because it hasn't been directly observed. Hence, dark. If you don't like the name that badly, I think you could get away with just referring to it as "unknown energy". It's just a label. But, is it the label, or the hypothesis of its existance, specifically, that you do not like?
 
There's something deeply ironic that lurked just below the surface, in my post; ironic wrt MM's "EM fields", electromagnetism, and MM's apparent delusion/fantasy.

What is it?

Why it's none other than our fave - not at all invisible - friend, the Casimir effect! :D

Here is an example of something quintessentially mozperical (thanks to Tim Thompson for this handy term): it is demonstrated in the lab, under controlled conditions, right here on Earth.

Better: it is an exquisite example of "see[ing] EM fields *DO* something in the real world"! :)

Even better: the "EM fields" cause acceleration!! :eek:

So where's the irony? Well, in MM's telling of this experiment, the acceleration is not caused by "EM fields"; indeed, in at least one of MM's telling of this (i.e. his "explanation"), there are no "EM fields" present at all.

But how do we *know* that "EM fields" are *DOING* something in this (real world) experiment? Well, we know because we understand "all the math related to Maxwell's equations"1. Without understanding that math, we'd have no way to tell (short of some sort of religious intuition).

And to get to that understanding, we need to use the concept of pressure; and to use that concept, we need to have a quantitative, objective, independently verifiable, robust definition of pressure.

And that definition, of necessity, involves math.

And we all know that MM has shown - many times, in many threads here - that he does not even understand the necessity of such a definition, much less accept the one found in standard textbooks.

In short, in at least one case, MM cannot "see EM fields *DO[ING]* something in the real world", even when it is a perfect examples of mozpericism.

1 Actually, QED, since the Casimir effect is a quantum-world phenomenon; however, at the level I'm discussing this, the fine details are not relevant ... all I'm doing is linking an observed (mozperical!) phenomenon to "electromagnetism", and showing that MM's oft repeated stance is internally inconsistent (and worse).

In truth DRD, your dark entities are as impotent on Earth as any religious entity. They are identical in their effect upon me as a human being. They only purpose your invisible deities seem to serve is to prop up your otherwise falsified little dark religion. Acceleration has nothing to do with your invisible friends. That acceleration may be very real, but your invisible friends are not real, they have no effect on anything outside of your head, and they don't *do* squat in the lab.

You can bitch about me all you like, but I'm simply pointing out that the dark emperor has no empirical clothes on.
 
I believe they call it Dark Energy because it hasn't been directly observed.

The term 'cosmic acceleration' is a logical term for an unexplained acceleration. You can't however claim "cosmic acceleration is the cause of cosmic acceleration.' Their word games just start with the name.

The problem from my perspective is that they can't explain solar wind acceleration either, and they dont' seem to 'see' the energy that is responsible for it, so should we call that "dark energy"?

It's just a label. But, is it the label, or the hypothesis of its existance, specifically, that you do not like?

But we learned earlier that it is *NOT* just a label. There are actually very "specific' ad hoc properties being assigned to it now. It's not only 'dark', it has a truly mythical form of "negative pressure" as well. When do these ad hoc properties end and when do we simply admit we're just ignorant of the empirical cause?
 
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In truth DRD, your dark entities are as impotent on Earth as any religious entity. They are identical in their effect upon me as a human being. They only purpose your invisible deities seem to serve is to prop up your otherwise falsified little dark religion. Acceleration has nothing to do with your invisible friends. That acceleration may be very real, but your invisible friends are not real, they have no effect on anything outside of your head, and they don't *do* squat in the lab.

You can bitch about me all you like, but I'm simply pointing out that the dark emperor has no empirical clothes on.

Here's how I understand it:

1.) Something caused the universe to expand at superluminal speeds at the beginning of time.
2.) Something is causing the universe to expand.
3.) The speed of the expansion is accelerating.
4.) The cause of the above is hypothesized, but unknown. (With the exception of #1)
5.) It would have taken, and still take, massive amounts of energy to cause the universe to continue to expand.
6.) The source or mechanism of this energy is not observable.
7.) Placeholder term "Dark Energy" used to reference this process.
8.) Hypothetical expansion processes created that make predictions to be confirmed or refuted.
9.) Confirmation or nonconfirmation strengthens or weakens various each hypothesis.
10.) Bit by bit, our understanding of the universe improves.

Where do you see a problem in any of that? How would you do it different?
 
Is it not somewhat ironic that, in the midst of accusing someone else of lying, Mozina lies?.

Tim, your whole game seems to be "destroy the messenger" and pure denial. There's really no denying the empirical difference between an EM field and your mythical negative pressure mythos. One shows up in the lab, while the other is as impotent on Earth as any pantheon god. Rather than just "fess up' and admit your whole "religion' is based on "faith in the unseen" (in the lab), you're going to spend all your time and efforts bashing the messenger. Sorry Tim, your dark metaphysical emperor has no empirical clothes on. It's not my fault, that's just cold hard empirical fact. Your dark energy is completely and utterly empirically useless, and useless outside of your region.
 
Michael, I'm a layman at this sort of thing, and I managed to wrap my head around the idea of negative pressure. It's really not that difficult to comprehend.
 
Michael, I'm a layman at this sort of thing, and I managed to wrap my head around the idea of negative pressure. It's really not that difficult to comprehend.

:) It's evidently a lot more complicated than they realize. :)

If you've been following this conversation (it's actually taken place in a lot of different threads now), they've been trying to suggest that the EM field *CANNOT* cause 'negative pressure" and it is therefore ruled out as 'dark energy'. They however turn right around and cite the Casimir effect as an example of 'negative pressure in a vacuum". The Casimir effect however is directly related to the EM field since plastics don't attract or repulse like metals.

Now Mister Earl, they can claim EM fields *CAN* cause "negative pressure", or they can claim they don't, but they can't have it both ways. Which is it?
 
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