Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

Tim Eastman has written a revised version of his Cosmic Agnostisism paper, which is a good read and cites lots of plasma cosmology.

Cosmic Agnosticism, Revisited
Timothy E. Eastman, Ph.D.
Plasmas International, 1225 Edgevale Road Silver Spring, MD 20910

http://journalofcosmology.com/Multiverse5.html



:scarper:

:)

Consider for example, the basic premise of all BB models and most of their contenders, i.e. the requirement that in the "beginning" all of matter was concentrated into a singularity, in which space is not just infinitesimally small, but where there is no space at all, such that the amount of energy stored at the singularity also becomes infinite. In addition, as size decreases, energy levels increase and so does gravity. Yet, whether for the standard model or quantum physics, a subatomic, or quantum theory of gravity does not yet exist. At the singularity, and using "black holes" as an example, how is gravity overcome so as to give rise to an expanding universe that does not immediately fall back into itself? So far, no one has explained how the initial bang was ignited. — George Gamow himself (one of the BB originators) considered this as a major problem for BB (G. Gamow, personal communication, 1968).
The fact that there is no reconcilliation for the sigularity between GR and QM is not a problem for the Big Bang, it describes the conditions after the sigularity, if that is what it was.

More later
 
No I do, just due their null (rather near insignificant) masses they are not often referred to as matter.
By whom would that be? They are matter.
And baryonic matter is made up of smaller parts. Wherther or not they themselves are baryonic is kind of arbitrary.

You said this and yo are wrong in stating it moving the goals posts does not help your original statement
"rather Non-baryonic matter, is by definition different from the ordinary matter observed anywhere on earth"

Nope, non-baryonic matter is observed frequently.
 
careful, someones getting dangerously close to asking questions that will get very different answers according to who replies, which in itself reveals something about the clarity of the theory in question :)

over and out [for now]

Careful Zeuzzz, you do not want to actually get to close to data and evidence, because your lack of either reveals the lack of theory.

Do you care to show us where you showed something of Plasma Cosmology that had any numeric meaning? Or data and evidence to back it up?
 
Zeuzzz said:
Dancing David said:
And the statement about non-baryoic matter is sort of ignorant, there is non-baryonic matter here on earth. DUH.

I guess Zuezzz does'nt believe in leptons of nutrinos.
No I do, just due their null (rather near insignificant) masses they are not often referred to as matter.
Cite?
Bump.

How did you form the conclusion that, because leptons and neutrinos have "null (rather near insignificant) masses they are not often referred to as matter"?

Did you read it somewhere perhaps?
 
careful, someones getting dangerously close to asking questions that will get very different answers according to who replies, which in itself reveals something about the clarity of the theory in question :)

over and out [for now]
What "very different answers according to who replies" have you seen, Z?

How clearly does Eastman (seem to) understand "the theory in question", Z?
 
PC/EU theory however is not threatened by the discovery of "mature" galaxies and clusters like your theory. It's much more "flexible" in that respect. It's all 100% physics, as opposed to mainstream theory which is only 4% actual physics, and 96 percent 'gap filler'.
Where, pray tell, can one read the details of galaxy formation and evolution, according to "PC/EU theory"?
 
It seems Z, MM, and tensordyne have abandoned this thread.

I wonder why?


That'll happen when the crackpots realize that they can't troll anyone with their nonsense anymore. As long as someone is willing to indulge them by responding to their sciency sounding BS they'll keep at it. But when everyone has busted them and they can't get away with their lies or get other people to jump through hoops for them, they leave like a bunch of little girls running from a spider. No guts. SOP. I've seen Michael do it on several occasions.
 
That'll happen when the crackpots realize that they can't troll anyone with their nonsense anymore. As long as someone is willing to indulge them by responding to their sciency sounding BS they'll keep at it. But when everyone has busted them and they can't get away with their lies or get other people to jump through hoops for them, they leave like a bunch of little girls running from a spider. No guts. SOP. I've seen Michael do it on several occasions.
I think the three are quite different.

tensordyne, for example, seems to had an interest in some alternative explanations he came across somewhere, and didn't really have the tools to understand what he read. Having exchanged a few posts with some regulars here, I think his subsequent absence may be due to realising that things were not quite as painted by PC (or EU) proponents.
 
Zeuzzz: Can you provide citations for your "cool plasma" assertion

Bump
First asked 19 May 2010
Zeuzzz:
Can you provide citations for the huge amount of "cool plasma" in galaxy clusters that is enough to explain dark matter?

Why did this "cool plasma" not act like the rest of the plasma in the cluster: collide and heat up?

Relatively cool plasma also emits radiation. When astonomers look at galaxy clusters thay do this in various wavelengths. This allows them to measure that in clusters 5-20% of the visible matter is in the galaxies with the rest in the intracluster medium.
 
No rc, I cant. Well I dont have the time atm anyway. Plus ive sort of given up on plasma cosmology, as a philisophical framework for future cosmologies of similar ideas its a great novel approach. But the plasma cosmology I grew to know as this thread progressed I ended up being able to debunk myself, which of course Im far too arrogant to be exact or even mention these in this thread, but safe to say that if held up to the standards and complexity of the only other theory in town, The Big Bang, plasma cosmology falls flat on its face. Funding? Bah. Dont ask me, ask Lerner, or the signatories of the cosmology statement.
 
Plasma is cool stuff (well usually hot) but there are the range effects.

Lerner at one time though black holes could not exist in galactic centers as well.
 
If anyone really cares deeply about it, why not go and actually study the proper fields of science that deal with it?


They might not be able to afford education.

I've studied it for a while. And im not impressed with the current "standard model" and some of the things it implies, at all. Make your own minds up, just make sure its a valid internally consistant provable scientific framework that can be tested, falsified and makes accurate predicitions, and not just some weird unprovable theory thats basically as good as religion.
 
Do you have one to propose?


Not my own, I just prefer Plasma Cosmology, as over the years all the predictions it has made based on its starting assumptions and numerous publications have shown with time to be much more accurate than BBT predictions, and plasma cosmology uses drastically less free parameters. Plus PC does not violate any of the basic laws of physics like BBT. Its predictions for the CMB from plasma filaments are more accurate, it light element abundances predictions based on steller surface plasma properties are many orders of magnitude more accurate, the filamentary plasma origin of large scale structures and the origin of the cosmic microwave background in a "radio fog" of dense plasma filaments have now been demonstrated. It looks like a winner to me.

http://bigbangneverhappened.org/p27.htm
 
Not my own, I just prefer Plasma Cosmology

Never heard of it. How is this field generally received in the physics community?

If the theorie's predictions have been demonstrated, as you claim, shouldn't it have created ripples in the science community by now?
 
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If the theorie's predictions have been demonstrated, as you claim, shouldn't it have created ripples in the science community by now?


Based on its superior predictive power, better more scientifically sound starting assumptions and the fact that we now know that 99.99% of the matter in the universe is infact matter in a plasma state (not solid, liquid, or gas, like was assumed when the Big Bang theory and the standard model for the sun and stars was formulated) and thus the universe should obey primarily complex plasma physics, dependent on the charge separation in space plasma, not fluid and gas equations that the big bang and solar models are based on.

The problem is this. When the Big Bang was first proposed (as a joke by cosmologist fred hoyle "it just went "bang!" everything from nothing" he said, or something similar) the equivalent of a messiah came to answer all these big questions cosmologists had been struggling with for years*. Paradoxical as a beginning in time from nothing is, if you assume this then you can work from there very easily. Soon people were expanding on the idea, new research was funded, huge facilities built, billions invested, all to try to discover more about the magical CMB and expansion and what it might tell us about the origin of the universe.

The effect was very weird. Scientists starting coming over all religous about this issue*. They had started to put all this work and effort into the idea of a definitive beginning in time for the universe, so any time someone pointed out that the laws of physics as we know do not allow the big bang to happen it really seemed to touch a nerve. Instead of the main cosmologists at the time being honest with the public they instead started to give the impression that they had worked out the biggest mystery in the universe. Us primitive apes, despite all our fancy equipment, arcane mathematical abstractions and all these hypothetical entities never discovered on earth, are basically clutching in the dark, Big Bang models are still riddled with assumptions and issues. Yet instead of evaluating the different frameworks they could approach cosmology from they ploughed on with the models they had started based on expansion and the CMB. So within a few years textbooks in schools were being published with Big Bang theory work as if it was fact. University courses were set up, millions goes into new investment. And the only real evidence for it was in their interpretation of the data they use to prove expansion, and apparently the homogeneity of the microwave part of the em spectrum means something amazingly cool and big bangy (depending on how you interpret the data!)

I might as well find a pattern in a part of the EM spectrum thats not been studied much, assign that huge universal significance, and then combine this with light data from galaxy clusters to prove once and for all that these two tiny nit picks of data are amazingly significant on a cosmological scale, and everything else can just be explained later by more mundane local things like pulsars or stars. :rolleyes:

Even mention at uni that the Big Bang never happened and you'll be a laughing stock. Its just accepted fact. But show one of the people laughing an alternative explanation for the origin of the CMB by one of the various scientists that have made such models, or one of the better tired light related theories to put inflation into doubt, and they will just go kinda quiet.

The Big Bang based projects get billions. Literally billions to send satellites up to study the data in space they have chosen to be significant. Funny thing is that plasma cosmology, despite getting hardly any funding at all, has used THEIR data, and found out that their predictions are still better to this day! If plasma cosmology was taken seriously by the religious zealots that seem to think that the Big Bang is the only theory allowed in town they could send satellites up to actually find what they want to. They are still doing well using the Big Bang based data though. But as it is they publish the work and models, buts its completely ignored by the "mainstream" cosmology community. )

Heres the *uncensored* plasma cosmology Wikipedia. It was taken down by admins at wikipedia that did not like the fact that the big bang had a competing theory that seemed to get far much more right with far simpler ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plasma_cosmology&oldid=88918621

Overview

Plasma cosmology posits that the most important feature of the universe is that the matter it contains is composed almost entirely of astrophysical plasma. The state of matter known as plasma is an electrically-conductive collection of charged particles, possibly together with neutral particles or dust, that exhibits collective behavior and that responds as a whole to electromagnetic forces. The charged particles are usually ions and electrons resulting from heating a gas. Stars and the interstellar medium are composed of plasma of different densities. Plasma physics is uncontroversially accepted to play an important role in many astrophysical phenomena.

The basic assumptions of plasma cosmology which differ from standard cosmology are:

1. Since the universe is nearly all plasma, electromagnetic forces are equal in importance with gravitation on all scales.[10].
2. An origin in time for the universe is rejected,[11] due to causality arguments and rejection of ex nihilo models as a stealth form of creationism.[12]
3. Since every part of the universe we observe is evolving, it assumes that the universe itself is evolving as well, though a scalar expansion as predicted from the FRW metric is not accepted as part of this evolution (see static universe).

Plasma cosmology advocates emphasize the links between physical processes observable in laboratories on Earth and those that govern the cosmos; as many cosmological processes as possible are explained by the behavior of a plasma in the laboratory.[13] Proponents contrast this with the big bang theory which has over the course of its existence required the introduction of such features as inflation, dark matter and dark energy that have not been detectable yet in laboratory experiments.[14]

While plasma cosmology has never had the support of most astronomers or physicists, a few researchers have continued to promote and develop the approach, and publish in special issues of the IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science (See for example issues in 2000, 2003 and 2007). The level of detail in the development of big bang cosmology is not rivalled by that seen in plasma cosmology, evidenced by the quantity of scientific papers published regarding the two approaches.



* The Big Bang Religion: Scientists Speak For Themselves
http://home.pacbell.net/skeptica/religion.html
Every culture has had myths about how the world began. In modern times, we are very technological and we have our scientific version. And it turns out that science's version is more incredible than any myth anyone ever made.

Then, last week, American scientists announced the discovery of radiation patterns in space that may mark the beginning of time itself. Said astrophysicist George Smoot, leader of the research team: "If you're religious, it's like looking at God. The order is so beautiful and the symmetry so beautiful that you think there is some design behind it."

Whatever caused the rapid expansion of the universe following the Big Bang--the same forces caused tiny ripples. Because if you try to do something too fast, you shake a little. God might be the designer.
--Maclean's, May 4, 1992 (the three above quotes are by George Smoot).


"It is a mystical experience, like a religious experience," Smoot said, reflecting the unscientific thoughts he had allowed himself in recent days, after the rigorous analysis of data was well behind him. "It really is like finding the driving mechanism for the universe, and isn't that what God is?" --(San Jose Mercury News, May 12, 1992. Story by John Noble Wilford of the New York Times.)


"By studying the way objects attract each other," Lange goes on, "we can come to the conclusion that there must be something [in the universe] that isn't normal matter, something that's some new form of matter. And any particle that exists--that God put in from the beginning--if it's stable, would still be around in great abundance.” --Andrew Lange (April 26, 1991 issue of the East Bay Express: "The Revenge of the WIMPS" an article by Steve Heimoff on current cosmology. This article centers on the U.C. Berkeley Lange Group, "a group of instructors, graduate students, and department assistants, organized under assistant professor of physics Andrew Lange.”)


The evolution of the universe from nothing is described by the big bang theory.
--astrophysicists Fang Li Zhi and Li Shu Xian, (Creation of the Universe, World Scientific, 1989)


What is the ultimate solution to the origin of the Universe? The answers provided by the astronomers are disconcerting and remarkable. Most remarkable of all is the fact that in science, as in the Bible, the world begins with an act of creation.
--astronomer Robert Jastrow, (Until the Sun Dies, 1977) p

To the contrary, "creation out of nothing" is a concept unique to Western religions. In traditional Western religious thought, the conception of a creator of the world is a conception of God. Indeed, creation of the world "out of nothing" is the ultimate religious statement because God is the only actor....
--Rev. Bill McLean, et al., Plaintiffs, v. The Arkansas Board of Education, et al., Defendants. No. LR C 81 322., United States District Court, E.D. Arkansas, W.D., January 5, 1982.

Concepts concerning...a supreme being of some sort are manifestly religious....These concepts do not shed that religiosity merely because they are presented as philosophy or as a science... Malnak v. Yogi, 440 F.Supp. 1284, 1322 (D.N.J. 1977); aff’d per curiam, 592 F.2d 197 (3d Cir. 1979).


Mr. Wouk also raises an interesting issue regarding creationism. My complaint that fundamentalist creationism is inspired by big bang creationism (Physics Today, April 1983) was echoed recently by John Maddox, who writes in his August 10, 1989, Nature editorial, "Creationists and those of similar persuasions seeking support for their opinions have ample justification in the doctrine of the Big Bang”. --Anthony Peratt (The Sciences, July/August 1990)


The Astronomy Book Club interviews the author of The Mind of God, the book by Professor Paul Davies:

Q: At one point in THE MIND OF GOD you ask, "If we can never get a handle on the laws [of nature] except through their manifestation in physical phenomena, what right have we got to attribute to them an independent [transcendent] existence?" What's the answer?

A: It's clear that at a certain point one has to take a metaphysical position. We're never going to tell from our investigations of the world whether these laws have an independent existence or not. But if the laws don't have an independent existence, then we can never appeal to them to explain how the Universe came into existence, because it's only if there are transcendent, independent laws capable of bringing the Universe into being and sustaining its existence through time that we can even conceive of an explanation for the origin of the Universe.

It is pretty transparent that Davies’ "transcendent, independent laws" are his words for God. p
 
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I don't believe there is a conspiracy to stifle the plasma theory. If it works better to explain the universe, it will be adopted.

You're sounding like an Intelligent Design proponent, or the usual woo proponent.
 
That's just wrong. Virtual particles, with their energy, are created all the time all around you.


Sorry your wrong, even when a virtual particle is created the energy has merely been transferred from one form to another. Usually by a gluon. Could be a photon, a w- particle, many things. You should check out some feyman diagrams, they explain it all very well.

feynm5.gif


The current understanding is that the net energy in the universe is very very close to zero. So whatever issues you have with the Big Bang, you should scratch conservation of energy off the list.


I don't exactly follow.
Are you speaking about the zero point field here?
 
You're sounding like an Intelligent Design proponent, or the usual woo proponent.


Cool. Attack the messenger :rolleyes:

This could last a while.

*sigh*

If you have issues with ANY plasma cosmology publication published in various peer reviewed journals (astrophysics and space science, IEEE transactions on plasma science, astronomy and astrophysics, are the main ones) then please quote it and have a good old laugh. If your correct I'll have a good old laugh about my naivity too. You can even get the laughing hyena out on me if its a genuine whopper of a mistake.
 
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I don't believe there is a conspiracy to stifle the plasma theory. If it works better to explain the universe, it will be adopted.


I don't believe its a conscious conspiracy either, it just seems to be the way that the dominant paradigm has developed, and the scientific institutions around this. Funding problems have really been quite biased for a theory that has more accurate predictions on many variables then the other one does. They have literally got nothing, apart from some funding to build a small dense plasma focus device derived from plasma properties and constants first worked out in the original formulation of plasma cosmology. http://lawrencevilleplasmaphysics.com/index.php?pr=Dense_Plasma_Focus
 
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I'm just saying that we should wait and see how your theory holds up in the scientific community. Normally, if it's any good, it should pass and be accepted.

Playing the victim card doesn't help.
 
Cool. Attack the messenger :rolleyes:

This could last a while.

*sigh*

If you have issues with ANY plasma cosmology publication published in various peer reviewed journals (astrophysics and space science, IEEE transactions on plasma science, astronomy and astrophysics, are the main ones) then please quote it and have a good old laugh. If your correct I'll have a good old laugh about my nativity too. You can even get the laughing hyena out on me if its a genuine whopper of a mistake.

:D You must be missing the Science section.:D
 
I'm just saying that we should wait and see how your theory holds up in the scientific community. Normally, if it's any good, it should pass and be accepted.

Playing the victim card doesn't help.
.
It wasn't all that long ago that the number of "fundamental particles" was exceeding 200, if memory serves.
Seems like every cloud chamber experiment found "new" ones.
Sanity finally prevailed over the "publish or perish" frenzy and most of these were demoted to merely different energy states of a lot fewer particles.
If plasma cosmology does a good job, fine, but it won't affect the price of gas.
 
I understand your feelings. The gaps are there to stay. The universe is too big for humans to know everything about. Scientists have filled in a lot of the gaps but there will always be things they don't know about. They will keep trying to understand but from what little I personally know it turns out that the more you learn the more you discover things that you don't know. For every mystery you solve theres another one waiting around the corner.


Thats why I'll happily say that current plasma cosmology is, in the big picture, just as much a load of hogwash as the big bang theory. Its just the best we can do at the moment to try to understand these titanic questions. And after comparing the two im firmly in the PC crowd.

The thrill is in the mystery. You dont have to fill it in with religion. Fill it in with science, even fringe science. Most main scientific models started off as fringe theories.

Its far better to come up with a scientific hypothesis to explain the mystery than to fill the mysteries with some sort of omnipotent god you've dreampt up, or been indoctrinated to believe in.
 
Thats why I'll happily say that current plasma cosmology is, in the big picture, just as much a load of hogwash as the big bang theory. Its just the best we can do at the moment to try to understand these titanic questions. And after comparing the two im firmly in the PC crowd.
Current plasma cosmology is in fact "a load of hogwash"
However you are mistaken in trying to compare the PC hogwash with the scientific theory of the big band with its many successes (and a couple of mysteries).

Its far better to come up with a scientific hypothesis to explain the mystery than to fill the mysteries with some sort of omnipotent god you've dreampt up, or been indoctrinated to believe in.
I agree - the "some sort of omnipotent god" that PC cosmologists are indoctrinated with makes them seem ridiculous.

Luckily the big bang theory is a scientific hypothesis with string evidence for it and predictions that have (mostly) been verified. That makes it into a scientific theory.
 
The problem is this. When the Big Bang was first proposed (as a joke by cosmologist fred hoyle "it just went "bang!" everything from nothing" he said, or something similar)

Fred Hoyle called it the Big Bang to make fun of the theory.He was quite cheesed off when the name caught on.He opposed it on philosophical grounds,not scientific.Don't tell me I'm wrong because I have a documentary on my computer in which he says that.He ended up with egg on his face as the evidence for the Big Bang began to mount up,especially the cosmic background radiation.He did some great work in the field of heavier elements forming in stars,but he was wrong about the Big Bang.
 
Not my own, I just prefer Plasma Cosmology, as over the years all the predictions it has made based on its starting assumptions and numerous publications have shown with time to be much more accurate than BBT predictions, and plasma cosmology uses drastically less free parameters.
Lerners 2004 review has already been addressed in this thread. It is out of date and mostly wrong.

Plasma cosomlogy has shown with time to be totally unable to predict the details of the cosmic background radiation.

Plus PC does not violate any of the basic laws of physics like BBT.
Wrong:
  • BBT does not violate any of the basic laws of physics.
  • PC does violate the basic laws of physics, e.g. plasma physics (see Debye length).
Its predictions for the CMB from plasma filaments are more accurate, it light element abundances predictions based on steller surface plasma properties are many orders of magnitude more accurate, the filamentary plasma origin of large scale structures and the origin of the cosmic microwave background in a "radio fog" of dense plasma filaments have now been demonstrated. It looks like a winner to me.

http://bigbangneverhappened.org/p27.htm
Errors in the "The Big Bang Never Happened"
Its predictions
  • for "CMB from plasma filaments" is nonexistant.
  • for the light element abundances are physically dubious.
  • the filamentary structure of the universe is not predicted at all. It is assumed in PC that because plasma forms filaments on small scales that the same happens on cosmic scales.
  • for the origin of the CMB does not fit the observations.
It looks like a loser to me.
 
Most main scientific models started off as fringe theories.

N, Zeuzzz, this is simply wrong. Scientific models often start out very speculative, but that's different from fringe. Plasma cosmology remains fringe not because it's speculative, but because it's fundamentally incompatible with observations.
 
Not my own, I just prefer Plasma Cosmology, as over the years all the predictions it has made based on its starting assumptions and numerous publications have shown with time to be much more accurate than BBT predictions

That's untrue, as thousands of posts on this forum attest. Plasma cosmology fails miserably to explain the basic observations we've made of the cosmos; as a result it is ruled out with extremely high confidence.

Plus PC does not violate any of the basic laws of physics like BBT.

The BBT is a consequence of the basic laws of physics as they are understood today. Specifically, it is a prediction of general relativity. It does not violate any known law of physics.
 
Based on its superior predictive power

That's some epistemological closure, Zeuzzz. The only people who think PC has predictive power are the people who don't know enough math to know what that means. That sentence keeps coming up over and over---from you, Sol88, Mozina, etc.---but the only evidence for it is the circle of acolytes citing each other saying it.

PC will have predictive power when you can take 4/5ths of modern cosmology data (pick four of: SNe, CMB, CMBpol, LSS, weak lensing) and use them to predict the other one. This is mathematically exactly equivalent to asking "does PC have a chi^2/dof of ~1, or worse?" on these five datasets. Lots of different models, not just LCDM, have subjected themselves to this test (see http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/map/dr4/parameters.cfm). Only LCDM passes. Why isn't PC on that list, Zeuzzz? Because the claim to be "predictive" is baloney, and the claim that LCDM is not predictive is ignorance.

ETA: Likewise: the Standard Solar Model predicted, in the ordinary "we calculated it before it was observed" sense that even statistical neophytes can understand, that the Sun should emit a certain number of neutrinos. This 1960s-era prediction very precisely matches the modern data (from SNO) with no tweaking whatsoever. If you use a spectrometer to measure the Sun's metals content, and plug them into the SSM's equation-of-state (which is, yes, a plasma equation of state, and yes, obeys the laws of physics regarding pressure and radiation-transport and whatnot), you precisely predict---no tweaking---the Sun's seismological oscillation modes. That's predictive. The one time I saw a PC helioseisemology "prediction" it was complete nonsense.

better more scientifically sound starting assumptions

Nope. To illustrate:

(not solid, liquid, or gas, like was assumed when the Big Bang theory and the standard model for the sun and stars was formulated)

Have you ever seen a Big Bang model? Have you ever seen a solar model? They're plasma all the way down. The CMB is a set of photons emitted from a rapidly-cooling plasma. The Alpha-Bethe-Gamow paper is nucleosynthesis in a plasma. The Standard Solar Model---does the name Saha mean anything to you? Before there was a theory of stars, there was a theory of the plasma physics of stars.

In other words: Zeuzzz, this "criticism" of mainstream theory is utterly made-up nonsense. It's like saying "I reject the theory of quantum mechanics because it ignores electrons."

Anyway---who cares what the genesis of the idea is? I don't care whether Emden included plasma in his solar model of 1907. That's not where I get my solar models from, I get them from modern calculations containing as much microphysics as we know. Why do you care whether Emden's 1907 book had accurate plasma physics? (My German is pretty weak, but I think that's the plasma equation of state on page 457 of Gaskugeln: Anwendungen der mechanischen Wärmetheorie auf kosmologische und meteorologische Probleme). If you think that Emden was the first and the last person to think about stellar interiors, you're wrong.

It's like saying "I reject the atomic theory of matter, because Democritus had no way of knowing about technetium."

and thus the universe should obey primarily complex plasma physics, dependent on the charge separation in space plasma, not fluid and gas equations that the big bang and solar models are based on.

And here's the usual wrong thing again. "Fluid and gas equations" are a subset of the plasma equations. Plasma has a pressure, mass density, temperature, viscosity, enthalpy, and so on just like a fluid. Do you think it doesn't? Why do you think that? If so you're wrong.

It can also, under some circumstances, have more complex behaviors---or it can not. (Pressure is always there. Mass density is always there. Convection is sometimes there. So far, that's all stuff that both gas and plasma does. But Alfven waves are sometimes there---they're plasma-only. The physics seems to be telling us that they're important in the Solar Wind but not in the interior. Charge separation is extremely rare---in fact charge separation is easier in an insulating gas (thunderstorms) than in a plasma---and there's no evidence whatosever that charge separations are important anywhere on or in the Sun.

You don't get to tell stars that they should have charge-separation---that's not how physics works. You have to look at the initial conditions and see whether something causes the charge separation. As far I can tell, PC's only reasons for rejecting gas-like-pressure and favoring charge-separation is:

a) Alfven spent more time talking about plasma-specific stuff than about pressure and hydro, therefore I am going to talk about plasma specific stuff and pretend the pressure/hydro isn't there.

b) If we said that Alfven's stuff wasn't important, we'd have to pack up and go home, so it had better be the most important thing.
 
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Based on its superior predictive power, better more scientifically sound starting assumptions and the fact that we now know that 99.99% of the matter in the universe is infact matter in a plasma state (not solid, liquid, or gas, like was assumed when the Big Bang theory and the standard model for the sun and stars was formulated) and thus the universe should obey primarily complex plasma physics, dependent on the charge separation in space plasma, not fluid and gas equations

What precisely do you think the term "fluid" means, Zeuzzz? Perhaps you think "fluid" means "liquid", but in physics, it doesn't. Plasma is a fluid. So why on earth would anyone with any sense object to using fluid equations to describe a fluid?
 
Missed this bit of woo:
Based on its superior predictive power, better more scientifically sound starting assumptions and the fact that we now know that 99.99% of the matter in the universe is infact matter in a plasma state (not solid, liquid, or gas, like was assumed when the Big Bang theory and the standard model for the sun and stars was formulated) and thus the universe should obey primarily complex plasma physics, dependent on the charge separation in space plasma, not fluid and gas equations that the big bang and solar models are based on.
As noted in previous posts: PC is notably inferior in is predictive power.
You are displaying a bit of ignorance: Plasma physics just happens to be based on fluid and gas equations!

The problem is this. When the Big Bang was first proposed (as a joke by cosmologist fred hoyle "it just went "bang!" everything from nothing" he said, or something similar) the equivalent of a messiah came to answer all these big questions cosmologists had been struggling with for years*.
Wrong
  • Fred Hoyle just created a new name for BBT.
  • The Big Bang was around for about 30 years before it was called Big Bang.
  • The Big Bang theory is a scientific theory. It exists so long as there is evidence for it and no longer.
    The reason that it is accepted is not because of your delusion that it is somehow religious. It is because it has done what other accepted scientific theories have done - survived the cut and thrust of scientific debate.
Paradoxical as a beginning in time from nothing is, if you assume this then you can work from there very easily.
This implies that you think that BBT describes the orgin of the universe. This is not true.

The effect was very weird. Scientists starting coming over all religous about this issue*.
The effect was very ordinary. Scientists starting coming over all curious about this issue as scientists do. This is despite you citing a web site full of cherry picked quotes. It ignores the millions of non-religious lines of text that there are about the BBT. Try reading scientific cosmology papers something.

...snipped rant...
Even mention at uni that the Big Bang never happened and you'll be a laughing stock. Its just accepted fact. But show one of the people laughing an alternative explanation for the origin of the CMB by one of the various scientists that have made such models, or one of the better tired light related theories to put inflation into doubt, and they will just go kinda quiet.
Wrong - it is taught as an accepted scientific theory (not fact). In actual fact typical undergraduate classes go through the history of cosmological theories.

The Big Bang based projects get billions. Literally billions to send satellites up to study the data in space they have chosen to be significant.
So?
Are you saying that we should not investigate the universe?

Heres the *uncensored* plasma cosmology Wikipedia. It was taken down by admins at wikipedia that did not like the fact that the big bang had a competing theory that seemed to get far much more right with far simpler ideas.
And your evidence that the admins took it down because of their personal opionions about cosmology is?

In fact you are wrong. The Plasma cosmology page exists, just without the pc woo (note the small letters). The previous version of it that you link to seems to have been rejected by the admins because of an editing war between Eric Lerner and other editors.
 
Wooooooooooop.

ere we go again. I need to come up with some sort of ticket system so I can deal with you one by one and not get lambasted with 20 posts in reply to each of mine.

Before I take the plunge I might as well give you all something to debunk for the next page or two while im at work. The trouble is that anything I say now I may as well just go back and copy / paste what I've already said. If I feel that it was ignored (like most of my links seemingly were) I may do just that.

These few publications have taken my eye recently. Mainly as they, and many other papers it would seem, are finally stating exactly the same ideas proposed years back by plasma cosmology (albeit by varying, yet still conceptually similar, phenomenon). Don't let your knee jerk reaction to the title cloud your judgment.

Observational evidence favors a static universe
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010arXiv1009.0953C
Cosmology and Extragalactic Astrophysics, September 5, 2010.

ABSTRACT

The common attribute of all Big Bang cosmologies is that they are based on the assumption that the universe is expanding. However examination of the evidence for this expansion clearly favours a static universe. The major topics considered are: Tolman surface brightness, angular size, type 1a supernovae, gamma ray bursts, galaxy distributions, quasar distributions, X-ray background radiation, cosmic microwave back-ground radiation, radio source counts, quasar variability and the Butcher–Oemler effect. An analysis of the best raw data for these topics shows that they are consistent with expansion only if there is evolution that cancels the effects of expansion. An alternate cosmology, curvature cosmology, is in full agreement with the raw data. This tired-light cosmology predicts a well defined static and stable universe and is fully described. It not only predicts accurate values for the Hubble constant and the temperature of cosmic microwave background radiation but shows excellent agreement with most of the topics considered. Curvature cosmology also predicts the deficiency in solar neutrino production rate and can explain the anomalous acceleration of Pioneer 10.
Key words: cosmology: observations, large-scale structure of universe, theory


And page 31 of this one maybe worth skimming (depending on your level of understanding, this one is a simplified overview);
THE NUCLEAR, PLASMA, AND RADIATION UNIVERSE
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/mragheb/w...he Nuclear, Plasma and Radiation Universe.pdf


There are a few mistakes I picked up on. And I hate the recent trend (usually done by "we nearly know it all now" scientists) of trying to link completely disparate problems with various new models in one go, there are so many other paradoxes to choose from yet its always the slight neutrino deficiency, pioneer 10 and the temperature of the CMB which they try to explain and link. The temparature of CMB is not even important unless you assign it a special meaning. All you need is a banal explanation for its temperature, uniformity and various other properties and you can get onto the other much more interesting and varied properties of the rest of the EM spectrum.


Bah. I say the fact that current models imply that most of the universe is made of something we have no experimental scientific evidence for, other than some inferences resting on the assumption that gravity behaves the same throughout the entire extent of the universe irrespective of location or force scaling. We are still far from proving beyond doubt the specifics of the cosmological principle, or if universality truly always holds for gravity. The scale that gravity has been shown to be consistent with models is absolutely tiny compared to the rest of the universe.


In his excellent, critically acclaimed, book on the worrying situation of theoretical physics, Lee Smolin gives an example of the mechanism that leads to such a narrowing of our view:


“The possibility - that we are wrong about Newton’s laws, and by extension general relativity - is too scary to contemplate.” (page 15).


There are major problems with the applicability of Newtons law of gravitation. This law is the sole reason why cosmology/astronomy is filled with so many unresolved problems, most notably dark matter and dark energy. Rarely are dark matter and dark energy seen as problems with gravity, but that is exactly what they are, entities invoked to try to explain the plethora of objects in space that do not follow the gravitational model of an exclusively attractive field.


There is no definitive law for gravity at all scales. Newtonian gravity is accurately measured and proven with the bounds of the solar system. However, Newtonian gravity remains untested in other areas. All we have is the formula. This formula has been used to determine the mass of the Earth, we don't even know the valid range for Newtonian gravity. To get the mass of another planet in our solar system you have to use the value used for the Earth or sun. And to work out the tremendously important value of G you then have to use MEG, using the mass of the Earth, under the presumption it is correct, and then other methods using the suns mass are derived again from MEG. So when people say that a distant object in orbit is a certain mass and they thus know the gravitational forces involved etc, this is more an assumption than a fact, depending on the value of G and the mass of the sun or earth.


Oh to hell with it. Cut. Snip. Paste. Dont ignore my main points this time though!



Zeuzzz said:
So from an experimental viewpoint, Newtons law runs into various problems even right here on Earth. Who knows what problems it faces when extrapolated to the large scale constituents of the universe.


Since gravity was related by Einstein to the geometry of space-time (whatever the hell that physically is) gravity has received support from various tests, such as the perihelion of mercury, and others. However, the following quote from a very popular book on astronomy, is quite remarkable:


Galactic dynamics (page 635)

"It is worth remembering that all of the discussion so far has been based on the premise that Newtonian gravity and general relativity are correct on large scales. In fact, there is little or no direct evidence that conventional theories of gravity are correct on scales much larger than a parsec or so. Newtonian gravity works extremely well on scales of ∼ 10^14cm (the solar system).
(...) It is principally the elegance of general relativity and its success in solar system tests that lead us to the bold extrapolation that the gravitational interaction has the form GM/r2 on the scales 10^21 − 10^26cm..."

[....]


The above cited 'bold extrapolation' of gravity seems to have encountered problems even in the solar system now, with the pioneer and voyager anomalies, so it seems very naive to presume that gravity functions how we currently model it when applied to much larger scales.


Many tests show that gravity obeys an inverse square law in terms of distance, but little work has been done on observations that test the dependence on the field mass, M. Since mass estimates of the whole universe depend on it, determining the absolute value of G is kinda important. The thing is that they all tend to give different values for G, and whereas other (fundamental) constants in nature achieve an accuracy of over 12 decimal places the value of the gravitational constant lags behind with far greater uncertainty, with only about 3-4 decimal places remaining undisputed by various methods. This indicates that we still have a lot to learn about the true nature of gravity.


A lot of work has been done on determining the value of G. What seems lacking however are test which test the spatial and temporal dependence of G, which can also be used to test Newtons law as well. At the atomic level, although you can work out the ratio of electric and gravitational forces at 2.27x1039 (respectively), this has never been measured as particles this size are too light to be used as field masses. Gravity is amazingly illusive at this small scale, and remains so right up to much larger scales. At the standard laboratory scale the torsion balance is the usual method, done usually over a distance of 10 – 30 cm, which is the method used by originally by cavendish, which has changed very little to this day. One further method is by using a superconducting gravimeter and a moving mass (see http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0957-0233/10/6/311).


And that’s about it from methods of determining G directly. We only have direct confirmation of this law over a very small scale range, from laboratory to geological size, it is presumed from this that it applies exactly to all other scales. Other larger scale methods like satellite based experiment’s to find the value of G, such as LLG, are in fact finding the product MEG, using the mass of the Earth, under the presumption it is correct, and other larger scale estimates use generally use the mass of the sun (inferred from the mass of the Earth) to determine G.


Another interesting way to test gravity would be check the dependency of Newtons law on the amount of field mass in question. Which is an idea lacking much experimental verification too. When M = m (in F=GMm/r2) the law becomes symmetric, but a deviation for large masses would not violate the equivalence principle, at least within its experimental constraints which apply mostly to test masses. It is often claimed that any physical theory has to be linear in the weak-field-limit, but this cannot be definitively proven, mainly due to the amazingly weak nature of gravity making tests for this very hard. We just perform an extrapolation of our mathematical methods, which should be tested. There are plenty of ways to test the r2 term in Newtons law, but testing the exponent 1 on M is much more difficult to prove.


Torsion balance experiments typically use masses in the range 5 – 20 Kg, and this is the mass at which we base our most accurate measurements of G. And this mass range goes up to about 107 Kg with lake experiments to measure gravity (see: Determination of the gravitational constant with a lake experiment.), which achieved results close to laboratory values, but not to such a high degree of accuracy. Generally, the more mass is used the less reliable the value becomes. And when you get to the solar system scale satellite data of planetary orbits can not be used to find the field mass dependence of Newtons law (ie, the exponent of M not equal to 1 in F=GMm/r2) as the same data is used to measure the mass. You can use Keplers law to test the validity of the inverse square relationship, but this can not reveal an exponent of M different from 1. This problem stems from not being able to find independent mass estimates of these larger scale objects (apart from some very crude methods with a very high amount of uncertainty), and so from the mass range of the moon \earth (1023 kg) all the way up to sun, no accurate test for this exists. When dealing with the galactic scale (from 1039 to 1044) you run into the same problem of not having independent mass estimates. And this applies to all scales above the solar system. Solar mass to light ratio measurements for galaxies do not fit the dynamically determined mass, and so dark matter is invented to explain this failure of Newton’s law. And right up on the cosmological scale Newtons law fails, and so dark energy is invoked to explain the anomalies. So over time Newtons law has been patched up with numerous ad hoc solutions, but maybe instead of just assuming these entities exist and can explain away everything we should just consider that the law of gravity is plain wrong when applied to large scales. This is where theories like MOND and others come in. And while MOND presents more problems than it solves (in my opinion), it has been very useful in pointing out another problem with Newtons law, that it is poorly tested for accelerations below 10−10ms−2.


I think that it is highly likely that the hierarchy of structures in the universe, the lab, earth, solar system, galactic, cosmic does not stop at the laws that we use in the solar system but requires a corresponding hierarchy of theories. Inventing new entities and new free parameters to simulations will not be sufficient; this type of approach seems to me to be a modern day version of the epicycles of Ptolemy. Extrapolating theories beyond their true testable scope should be avoided, unless we want to walk down the path of ever more complex theories piled up ontop of each other in an attempt to try to hold on to the basic law underlying them all, this type of approach merits a warning from history.



The amount of research that is done in cosmology based on this unverified extrapolation of gravity over some 14 orders of magnitude is quite a remarkable spectacle.


There are considerable gaps in our knowledge about how gravity functions at large scales. Take a look at this graph for example;


http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6536/gravityvd8.jpg


Generally objects fall into three groups at different scales. The group on the left are the only area where direct absolute measurements of G are possible, from tiny scales up to geological scales. Everything else on this table, from our satellites up to super-massive black holes are extrapolations of Newtons law that remain to be tested, as even the middle group are testing Keplers law rather than Newtons. For the group on the right, none of them offer any sort of undisputable evidence for Newtons law, without having to invoke quantities such as dark matter or energy. To put it simply, tests of the field mass dependence are entirely determined by only 1-2 independent types of experiments on the small scale. The extrapolation to the other larger objects is assumed.


The interesting thing about Maxwells electromagnetism is that it is not like gravity, it is scale invariant. Gravity has no effect on that atomic scale. But it does on the solar scale. And it is assumed to be the only force that can effect even larger scales. But the sheer amount of large scale objects that do not obey Newtons law by their shape and structure, certainly imply that other forces are at work on the large scale. And now we know that plasma is so pervasive in the universe, something not known when most gravitational models were invented back when they thought that space was a void of empty space, EM forces in plasma are the obvious candidate to explain these objects.
 
And your evidence that the admins took it down because of their personal opionions about cosmology is?


The multitude of pages in the discussion section where their motives are all too clear. Their rules are supposed to be to let peer reviewed work onto wiki sites only, plus a few press releases. They fail, after dozens of pages of quotes and links, to even recognize one recent plasma cosmology publication, whether in "astrophysics and space science" or an IEEE journal. All they will let on there are old, dated, wrong publications that relate to Alfven. By Wikipedia rules they are quite clearly breaking them, as they do not give a reason, let alone a scientific reason, to not allow people to reference peer reviewed work from reputable journals. Their excuse seems to be "umm well I haven't heard about this theory in this journal, I was only taught about the Big Bang, so this theory must be being ignored by professional scientists so completely wrong".

Most professional scientists dont ignore models they dont like. They may cite them, refute them, or reply to them indirectly. The fact that they have not been able to find ONE peer reviewed refutation of any plasma cosmology material speaks absolute volumes. Scientists must read it and pretty much agree, else there would be rebuttals.

Oddly they let Ed wrights article "errors in the big bang never happened" on there, which is not peer reviewed (and was refuted promptly by lerner anyway) yet wont let a single modern peer reviewed plasma cosmology publication on there.

In fact you are wrong. The Plasma cosmology page exists


Correction, the plasma cosmology page that only references now falsified old models and things relevant to Alfven exists.

The previous version of it that you link to seems to have been rejected by the admins because of an editing war between Eric Lerner and other editors.


Yeah a great decision. They seemed to be quite alarmed with how much material there was to PC when Lerner wrote that detailed article. Due to his persistence in trying to post the interesting studies from various journals that offered an alternative to their Big Bang based ideas that they could not refute without looking like they were just blatantly censoring good science they had no choice but to ban him.

Naturally this sort of behavior ensures wikipedias credibility. As long as all the people that are world leading experts in any field are banned from the respective wiki articles for knowing too much about the subject and doing a really good job at updating it with the most recent journal literture I guess we can all rest assured that either some complete novice will try instead, or someone who will personally gain from stopping such material being public.

Take a look at the wiki user "scienceappologist", see his controversial history, his articles about how "The Big Bang is the foundation of modern science, how dare people question it", his confrontational and rude reviews on amazon of PC journals and books [which he often writes one day after they start selling (he obviously does not read them)] and judge who out of him and Lerner is more impartial. I'm amazed hes still a moderator to be frank. He is a personal friend of moderator Art Carlson, who has managed to stop him being sacked on numerous occasions if I recall correctly.

Cant be arsed to reply to anything else.
 
oh yea id disregard anything above that was copied from the philosophy section, I tend to let my woo filter down considerably when in that forum. And might have exaggerated a few lil things.
 
To make my point about the bias in the wiki article this is a brief simplified section I added, complete with references from reputable journals that have yet to be refuted in the literature. It was promptly taken down because it uses the work of a top expert in plasma cosmology ... "It leans very strongly to Lerner's flavor of PC" :rolleyes: Guess we'll have to put up with people that dont even know what they are talking about writing the rest of the article, so not just me.

Main Differences

The main differences in predictions the cosmologies have made are as follows;[26]

Big Bang Theory: The universe has a time of creation. Plasma Cosmology: The universe is assumed infinite in time and constantly evolving. [27]

Big Bang Theory: The universe originated from a highly homogeneous state and will remain largely so in the future. Plasma Cosmology: The universe is filamentary and clumpy. The large scale structure of the cosmos will not be homogeneous but highly filamentary.[28][29]

Big Bang Theory: CMB radiation will be isotropic. Plasma Cosmology: The CMB will not be as isotropic, as the syncrotron scattering process creates an isotropic formation, estimating the GeV of electrons to be inversely proportional to distance in the range 1-400 mpc. And the observed radio luminosity will fall as D-0.36, in excellent agreement with observations.[30]

Big Bang Theory: The anisotropy of the CBR will be random. Plasma Cosmology: The anisotropy of the CBR will show a strong preferred orientation in the sky. Mainly due to magnetic anisotropy which occurs in a plasma, so that its magnetic field is oriented in a preferred direction.[31][32]

Citations:

[26] Lerner, E.J Two world systems revisited: a comparison of plasma cosmology and the Big Bang Plasma Science, IEEE Transactions on, Dec. 2003, Volume: 31, Issue: 6, Part 1, On page(s): 1268- 1275

[27] Hannes Alfven, Cosmology: Myth or Science? J. Astrophys. Astr. (1984) 5, 79–98

[28] E.J. Lerner, "Radio Absorption by the Intergalactic Medium" The Astrophysical Journal, Vol. 361, pp. 63-68, Sept. 20, 1990.

[29] E.J. Lerner, "Confirmation of radio absorption by the intergalactic medium Astrophysics and Space Science (ISSN 0004-640X), vol. 207, no. 1, p. 17-26

[30] E.J. Lerner, "Radio Absorption by the Intergalactic Medium" The Astrophysical Journal, Vol. 361, pp. 63-68, Sept. 20, 1990.

[31] E.J. Lerner, "Magnetic Vortex Filaments, Universal Invariants and the Fundamental Constants" IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Special Issue on Cosmic Plasma, Vol. PS-14, No. 6, Dec. 1986, pp. 690-702.

[32] Lerner, Eric J, Intergalactic Radio Absorption and the COBE Data Astrophysics and Space Science, Volume 227, Issue 1-2, pp. 61-81
 

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