Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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Michael Mozina said:
And yet if this 'reconnection' is taking place inside of a current carrying plasma, it's not simply magnetic lines doing the connecting, and Alfven's "particle" (actually not Alfven's orientation, he cited the relevant first authors) or circuit orientation of double layer energy transfers apply. In fact he claimed that the existence of a double layer inside that reconnection region put another nail in the reconnection coffin.

This all comes right back to kinetic energy and kinetic energy transfer between *PARTICLES*. The transfer of photon kinetic energy transfer of the stored magnetic field energy into charged particles is called "induction". The kinetic energy transfer between particles inside the double layer has nothing to do with magnetic lines "disconnecting' or "reconnecting'. If those "lines" are merely current carrying filaments, it's just as valid to treat it as a "circuit", and look at it in terms of "circuit energy".
Click to expand...

And when exactly are you going to explain the observations by e.g. Runov et al. (the paper I quoted) with a set of circuits, how is the circuit going to accelerate the plasma in a direction perpendicular to the magnetic field direction, etc etc.

Assume that I am a stupid idiot and need to be explained the basics of this circuit reconnection, because Carlqvist does not describe this it just discusses how twisted magnetic fields can be unwound with a double layer. And then, of course there is the strong doubt by Alfvén that MRx might be true anyway, to quote from his 1973 JGR paper:

HA said:
In case the magnetic field varies with time, the geometry near neutral points may change in such a way that it is legitimate to speak of a 'field-line reconnection.' We cannot exclude the possibility that some of the field-line reconnection formalism may be applicable, but this remains to be proved. In fact, of the most conspicuous nonstationary phenomena, magnetic substorms are explained by current disruption (survey by Boström [1974]).
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and indeed, all the observations made these days in-situ show exactly what the mathematical models predicted, and with the upcoming MMS mission, there will be an electron scale view of MRx, which we have not been able to observe in nature.
 
Here is the relevant quote from Alfven from Cosmic Plasma:

113 .3. `MAGNETIC MERGING' THEORIES

What we have found means that we can describe plasma phenomena inside a finite volume only if no electric current crosses the surface. In the terminology of the magnetic field description, this means that we can describe plasma phenomena inside a finite volume only if the perpendicular component of the curl is zero at every point of the surface.
All theories of `magnetic merging' (or `field line reconnection') which do not satisfy this criterion are misleading or erroneous, and deserve no attention . This does not mean that all papers in which `magnetic merging' is used are of no interest, because there exist some good papers (e .g., Hill, 1975) in which the term is merely a synonym for "current sheet acceleration ."
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Michael Mozina said:
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1974ApJ...190..467L/0000467.000.html

Why? You refuse to acknowledge or deal with anything that has already been presented. Your handwaves will not make the material go away.
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It has already been shown that the Lee paper does not support the crackpot notion that electrical discharges are or cause CMEs and solar flares. No such claim was made within the paper and no such conclusion was reached. The flaws were described within the paper. It would be ignorance, stupidity, or a lie to suggest that paper supports the claim.
 
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tusenfem said:
And when exactly are you going to explain the observations by e.g. Runov et al. (the paper I quoted) with a set of circuits, how is the circuit going to accelerate the plasma in a direction perpendicular to the magnetic field direction, etc etc.
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The only way that is going to happen is if a double layer forms between the two 'circuits'. The double layer acceleration process will ultimately result in a rewiring of the circuits.
 
Michael Mozina said:
GeeMack said:
To get the thread back on track it would be good to see some quantitative objective support, none of which has been provided yet, for the claim that electrical discharges are or cause CMEs and solar flares.
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http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1974ApJ...190..467L/0000467.000.html
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The paper in question was written without the benefit of the huge volume of solar observation data that's been generated over the last 35 years. The closest thing I can find to support for electric-discharge CMEs is in the conclusion (P.479), which includes the line "It is shown that a number of similarities between the two [laboratory discharge and solar flare] exist, and these are believed to be due to the fact that some specific physical processes involved in both cases are of similar origin."

Do you feel that this provides compelling support for the idea that CMEs are electrical discharges?

The paper also said "However, the factors of 109-1010 difference in the electron density may imply that the two plasmas under consideration belong to completely different regimes . . ." (P. 477-478).

Do you feel that this might undercut the confidence that the paper demonstrates that CMEs are electrical discharges?
 
GeeMack said:
As stated above, it would be a ignorance, stupidity, or a lie to suggest that paper objectively supports the claim that electrical discharges are, or are the cause of, solar flares and CMEs.
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How is it that you continually get away with unprofessional crap?

It is ignorance, stupidity and/or a lie to claim Lee's work *DOES NOT* support a discharge theory. In fact there are *MANY* similarities noted by Lee which you simply handwaved at. Denial won't make it go away GM.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Where? You handwaved at it with less than a single paragraph. In fact all you did was parot Lee's statements and ignore his findings altogether.

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1974ApJ...190..467L/0000467.000.html

Notice all those iron lines or are you in hard core denial?
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It has already been shown that the Lee paper does not support the crackpot notion that electrical discharges are or cause CMEs and solar flares. No such claim was made within the paper and no such conclusion was reached. It is, of course, highly conceivable that people wholly unqualified to understand science... or English... or math... might misinterpret it to mean something it does not. That seems to happen a lot with crackpot claims. But no, there is no such objective conclusion to be found in that paper.

I stand by my previous position that it would be ignorance, stupidity, or a lie to suggest that paper objectively supports the claim that electrical discharges are or cause CMEs and solar flares. No electric Sun proponent I've ever seen had the qualifications necessary to second guess Lee on his own conclusion. Perhaps an independent objective assessment by a professional in the field of plasma or solar physics could put it in a different light. But continuing to post the link and rant about how it does support a crackpot claim is a lot like spamming the forum, it's dishonest, and it certainly isn't productive.
 
dasmiller said:
The paper in question was written without the benefit of the huge volume of solar observation data that's been generated over the last 35 years. The closest thing I can find to support for electric-discharge CMEs is in the conclusion (P.479), which includes the line "It is shown that a number of similarities between the two [laboratory discharge and solar flare] exist, and these are believed to be due to the fact that some specific physical processes involved in both cases are of similar origin."

Do you feel that this provides compelling support for the idea that CMEs are electrical discharges?
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That depends on how one defines a "discharge" in plasmas.

Peratt, Anthony L .
Physics of the plasma universe/Anthony L . Peratt .
ISBN 0-387-97575-6


1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent prαesses such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation. As an example, multi-terawatt pulsed-power generators on earth rely on strong electrical discharges to produce intense particle beams, Χrays, and microωανes . Megajoules of energy are electrically stored in capacitor banks, whose volume may encompass 250 m^3 . This energy is then transferred to a discharge regίοn, located many meters from the source, vi α a transmission line.

The discharge region, or load, encompαsses at most a few cubic centimeters of space, and is the site of high-variability, intense, electromagnetic radiatιοη (Figure 1 .2) .On earth, lightning is another example of the discharge mechanism at work where electr-o-static energy is stored in clouds whose volume may be of the order of 3,000 km3. This energy is released in a few cubic meters of the discharge channel.

The aurora is a discharge caused by the bombardment of atoms in the upper atmosphere by 1–20 keV electrons and 200 keV ions spirιlling down the earth's magnetic field lines at high latitudes . Here, the electric field accelerating the charged particles derιves from plasma moving across the earth's dipole magnetic field lines many earth radii into the magnetosphere .
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The paper also said "However, the factors of 109-1010 difference in the electron density may imply that the two plasmas under consideration belong to completely different regimes . . ." (P. 477-478).


Do you feel that this might undercut the confidence that the paper demonstrates that CMEs are electrical discharges?
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Not at all. It's simply a matter of "scaling" and plasma behaviors tend to scale quite well.
 
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Michael Mozina said:
It is ignorance, stupidity and/or a lie to claim Lee's work *DOES NOT* support a discharge theory. In fact there are *MANY* similarities noted by Lee which you simply handwaved at.
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You still do not understand Lee's paper. It does not mention electrical discharges on the Sun at all.
Solar-flare and laboratory plasma phenomena (1974)
No mention of electrical discharges.
​
Just plasma discharges and the discharge currents used to create the plasma.
The abstract mentions discharges.
The introduction to the paper makes it clear that they are talking about plasma discharges
As reported here, a simple laboratory plasma discharge, which is believed to have a number of phenomenological similarities with solar flares, has been studied in order to demonstrate that some of the physical processes involved could be common to both cases.
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FYI MM: a discharge of plasma is called a plasma discharge.


It is quite ignorant to claim that Lee's work *DOES* support an electrical discharge in plasma theory anywhere in the universe when
  1. By definition electrical discharges cannot happen in plasmas (they are conductive).
  2. The paper does not mention electrical discharges in plasma :jaw-dropp!
 
Reality Check said:
You still do not understand Lee's paper. It does not mention electrical discharges on the Sun at all.
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Oy Vey....

Seeing as how Perratt worked for Los Alamos, with plasmas of many types, perhaps you would be so kind as to explain what is wrong with Perratt's definition of a electrical discharge through plasma, and what's wrong with this explanation of a flare?

Same book by the way:


2 .6.2 Currents in the Solar Atmosphere

The solar atmosphere consists of a highly conducting plasma in which vertical currents of about 10"-1 0 12 A are common in active regions where solar flares occur. For a current of 1= 3 x 10 " A flowing in a filament of radius a 106 m, /z = 0 .1 Α m2. The length of the filament is l =108m and passes mainly thrοugh the lower corona in a looρconnecting twο foot-prints in the photosphere. The coronal plasma density and temperature is taken to be n, = 10 16 m3and T=100 eV (1 06 K) (Table 1 .3) and uniformly distrίbuted across the filament so that differential kinetic pressure term Δ W k (a) is negligible. Hence,

I(a) is roughly = 3 X 10^11 A
N(a) is rough = 6 X 10^28m^-1

...
Click to expand...

He does the equations too, but frankly I'm going to let you suffer because it didn't translate well from PDF to html, it will make you want to read the book and maybe you should read it for yourself. I'll warn you it's probably *REALLY* expensive these days since it's now out of print. :)
 
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Michael Mozina said:
Seeing as how Perratt worked for Los Alamos, with plasmas of many types, perhaps you would be so kind as to explain what is wrong with Perratt's definition of a electrical discharge through plasma, and what's wrong with this explanation of a flare?

Same book by the way:


2 .6.2 Currents in the Solar Atmosphere

The solar atmosphere consists of a highly conducting plasma in which vertical currents of about 10"-1 0 12 A are common in active regions where solar flares occur. For a current of 1= 3 x 10 " A flowing in a filament of radius a 106 m, /z = 0 .1 ? m2. The length of the filament is l =108m and passes mainly thr?ugh the lower corona in a loo?connecting tw? foot-prints in the photosphere. The coronal plasma density and temperature is taken to be n, = 10 16 m3and T=100 eV (1 06 K) (Table 1 .3) and uniformly distr?buted across the filament so that differential kinetic pressure term ? W k (a) is negligible. Hence,

I(a) is roughly = 3 X 10^11 A
N(a) is rough = 6 X 10^28m^-1

...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Of course nothing in that mentions an electrical discharge.

Oh, and that phrase "electrical discharge through plasma" only gets a single Google hit in English. And that looks to be from some electric Sun nutter babbling on the Space.com forum. Maybe Perratt's "definition" is being dishonestly misinterpreted by the crackpots. Maybe he actually knew that an electrical discharge requires the breakdown of a dielectric medium, and that an electrical discharge by definition wouldn't be going through plasma since plasma is a conductor.
 
Can you state the difference between a electrical current and a discharge

Michael Mozina said:
Oy Vey....
Click to expand...
Indeed Oy Vey....
As I stated you are wrong about Lees paper - no electrical discharges are mentioned. I take it that you agree now since you have gone onto showing that you cannot understand Perratt.

You have a quote from Perratt that also does not mention electrical discharges :jaw-dropp!
2 .6.2 Currents in the Solar Atmosphere

The solar atmosphere consists of a highly conducting plasma in which vertical currents of about 10"-1 0 12 A are common in active regions where solar flares occur. For a current of 1= 3 x 10 " A flowing in a filament of radius a 106 m, /z = 0 .1 Α m2. The length of the filament is l =108m and passes mainly thrοugh the lower corona in a looρconnecting twο foot-prints in the photosphere. The coronal plasma density and temperature is taken to be n, = 10 16 m3and T=100 eV (1 06 K) (Table 1 .3) and uniformly distrίbuted across the filament so that differential kinetic pressure term Δ W k (a) is negligible. Hence,

I(a) is roughly = 3 X 10^11 A
N(a) is rough = 6 X 10^28m^-1
Click to expand...
(my emphasis added)


In summary:
  • A plasma discharge (Lees paper) is not an electrical discharge. It is a discharge of plasma.
  • An electrical discharge is a current allowed by the breakdown of a dielectric media. Without a dielectric media that breaks down you cannot have an electric discharge.
  • A current through a plasma is an electrical current.
A serious question for you MM:
First asked 7 December 2010
Can you state the difference between a electrical current and a discharge?

Have a think about why are there electrical currents in the wires in your computer and not electrical discharges.
(a small hint: try researching what an electrical discharge is and what it requires)
 
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GeeMack said:
Of course nothing in that mentions an electrical discharge.
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Did you miss the quote I posted earlier by Peratt, or are you just in denial of what he said?

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma
An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation. As an example, multi-terawatt pulsed-power generators on earth rely on strong electrical discharges to produce intense particle beams, Χrays, and microwανes . Megajoules of energy are electrically stored in capacitor banks, whose volume may encompass 250 m^3 . This energy is then transferred to a discharge regίοn, located many meters from the source, viα a transmission line.

The discharge region, or load, encompasses at most a few cubic centimeters of space, and is the site of high-variability, intense, electromagnetic radiation (Figure 1 .2). On earth, lightning is another example of the discharge mechanism at work where electrostatic energy is stored in clouds whose volume may be of the order of 3,000 km3. This energy is released in a few cubic meters of the discharge channel.
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Do you see the words "electrical" and "discharge" in there anywhere in yellow?
 
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Michael Mozina said:
Did you miss the quote I posted earlier by Perratt, or are you just in denial of what he said?
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That is the first time that you quoted section 1.5
Did you miss that Perratt simplifies the term "electrical discharge"?
An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy.
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The standard definition is
An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy between two objects at different electrical potentials allowed by a the breakdown of a separating dielecric media to a conductive phase.
Did you also notice:
The discharge region, or load, encompαsses at most a few cubic centimeters of space
Click to expand...
So are solar flares are now a few centimeters in volume?

Did you also notice
On earth, lightning is another example of the discharge mechanism at work where electr-o-static energy is stored in clouds whose volume may be of the order of 3,000 km3.
Click to expand...
Lightning is definitely not electrical discharge in a plasma. It is an electrical discharge that creates plasma.

Could this paragraph be about how electrical discharges create plasma?
MM: Quote where Perratt actuall states that cosmic plasma has electrical discharges within it. The physics and mathematics related to it would also be nice.
 
Oh for crying out loud....

I found you a direct quote that by *DEFINITION* makes a solar flare an "electrical discharge", from a guy that works with plasmas at Los Alamos, and the two of you *STILL* want to argue?!?
 
Michael Mozina said:
Did you miss the quote I posted earlier by Perratt, or are you just in denial of what he said?
Click to expand...


I said nothing in that previous quote mentioned an electrical discharge, and it didn't, the persistent uncivil and dishonest and inference that I'm denying something notwithstanding.

Do you see the words "electrical" and "discharge" in there anywhere in yellow?
Click to expand...


I see the words "electrical" and "discharge". I also see an explanation of a discharge, but it appears that Peratt may be a crappy communicator and mangled the title of the comment, because nothing in the quote specifies that any electrical discharges are going through any plasma. I'm certainly not responsible for Peratt's deficient language skills and/or the apparent inability of the electric Sun wackos to understand what they read. I'm not responsible for the oversights, the ignorance, the misinterpretations, or the dishonest quote mining that crackpots might do to try to support their otherwise unsupportable claims. The burden of proof is on the folks making the ridiculous claims, and when they fail at that responsibility, the arguments have failed.
 
Michael Mozina said:
The only way that is going to happen is if a double layer forms between the two 'circuits'. The double layer acceleration process will ultimately result in a rewiring of the circuits.
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Double layers cannot accelerate particles in a direction perpendicular to the magnetic field, so next guess please. How about magnetic tension?

How exactly is this double layer going to form between two circuits (and why is circuit in single quote marks, does that mean another mozina redefinition of the word circuit?). And which two circuits are that?

MM, if you have a model of this so called circuit reconnection, than it would be easiest if you would just put it here, so anyone can read and understand it.

Your lack of presenting this model shows you have no model and have to make it up on the go.

Ah well, colour me surprised.
 
Michael Mozina said:
He does the equations too, but frankly I'm going to let you suffer because it didn't translate well from PDF to html, it will make you want to read the book and maybe you should read it for yourself. I'll warn you it's probably *REALLY* expensive these days since it's now out of print. :)
Click to expand...

Not really, you can get a pdf of the book for nothing.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Oh for crying out loud....

I found you a direct quote that by *DEFINITION* makes a solar flare an "electrical discharge", from a guy that works with plasmas at Los Alamos, and the two of you *STILL* want to argue?!?
Click to expand...


The quote provided does not make a solar flare an electrical discharge. Reality Check just pointed out within the quote, "The discharge region, or load, encompasses at most a few cubic centimeters of space [...]". A few cubic centimeters of space? A solar flare? Really? As with Lee's paper, it would be ignorance, stupidity, or a lie to suggest those comments objectively support the claim that electrical discharges are or are the cause of CMEs and solar flares.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Peratt, Anthony L .
Physics of the plasma universe/Anthony L . Peratt .
ISBN 0-387-97575-6
Click to expand...

Michael Mozina said:
He does the equations too, but frankly I'm going to let you suffer because it didn't translate well from PDF to html,
Click to expand...
Please identify the specific equations you consider relevant, and explain why you believe those specific equations are relevant.

Michael Mozina said:
it will make you want to read the book and maybe you should read it for yourself. I'll warn you it's probably *REALLY* expensive these days since it's now out of print. :)
Click to expand...
No problem. The passage you've been citing also appears, word for word, in section 3.2 of a paper that's available online:

A.L.Peratt. Advances in Numerical Modeling of Astrophysical and Space Plasmas. Astrophysics and Space Science 242 (1-2), 93-163.
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1996Ap&SS.242...93P/0000093.000.html

That paper also contains 118 numbered equations, plus quite a few unnumbered equations. When you discuss the equations, I suggest you identify them using the numbers in that online paper instead of using the out-of-print book that's expensive and hard to obtain.

Michael Mozina said:
Do you see the words "electrical" and "discharge" in there anywhere in yellow?
Click to expand...
I see Perratt saying that an electrical discharge occurs when there is a breakdown in "the energy transmission medium". It appears to me that Perratt is referring to a breakdown of the dielectric, so the passage you've been quoting would appear to support GeeMack and RealityCheck's definition of electrical discharge.
 
GeeMack said:
I see the words "electrical" and "discharge". I also see an explanation of a discharge,
Click to expand...

So are you ready to rescind your ridiculously false claim yet?

There is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.
Click to expand...

Notice what an electrical discharge is:

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.
Click to expand...

By *DEFINITION* a solar flare is an example *OF* an "electrical discharge" in plasma.


but it appears that Peratt may be a crappy communicator
Click to expand...

I don't suppose you read his book either, did you?

and mangled the title of the comment, because nothing in the quote specifies that any electrical discharges are going through any plasma.
Click to expand...

Didn't you see that commentary about rapid rises of temperatures, ionization, pinches, filaments, stuff like that?

I'm certainly not responsible for Peratt's deficient language skills
Click to expand...

Excuse me? The only "deficiency" around here is your unwillingness to accept reality.

and/or the apparent inability of the electric Sun wackos to understand what they read.
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Well, I for one read the work. Did you read his book or is this another installment of "The Clairvoyant Physicist"?

I'm not responsible for the oversights, the ignorance, the misinterpretations, or the dishonest quote mining that crackpots might do to try to support their otherwise unsupportable claims. The burden of proof is on the folks making the ridiculous claims, and when they fail at that responsibility, the arguments have failed.
Click to expand...

I have provided you with Bruces work. You handwaved at it. I provided you with Lee's work. You did the same. I provided you with Peratt's work, you handwave at it too. I provided you quotes from Alfven explaining that "current carrying" plasmas make "reconnection" completely unnecessary since induction and circuits works perfectly to explain such behaviors.

I have provided you with a direct quote from a plasma physicist from Los Alamos that demonstrates that by definition a flare *IS* an "electrical discharge". All the denial in the world won't make those papers and books go away GM.
 
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Michael Mozina said:
So are you ready to rescind your ridiculously false claim yet?
Click to expand...


The claim that nothing in this passage mentions an electrical discharge?...

2 .6.2 Currents in the Solar Atmosphere

The solar atmosphere consists of a highly conducting plasma in which vertical currents of about 10"-1 0 12 A are common in active regions where solar flares occur. For a current of 1= 3 x 10 " A flowing in a filament of radius a 106 m, /z = 0 .1 ? m2. The length of the filament is l =108m and passes mainly thr?ugh the lower corona in a loo?connecting tw? foot-prints in the photosphere. The coronal plasma density and temperature is taken to be n, = 10 16 m3and T=100 eV (1 06 K) (Table 1 .3) and uniformly distr?buted across the filament so that differential kinetic pressure term ? W k (a) is negligible. Hence,

I(a) is roughly = 3 X 10^11 A
N(a) is rough = 6 X 10^28m^-1

...
Click to expand...

Nothing in that mentions an electrical discharge.

Notice what an electrical discharge is:
1 .5 Electr?cal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.
Click to expand...


By *DEFINITION* a solar flare is an example *OF* an "electrical discharge" in plasma.
Click to expand...


Nowhere in there does it say anything about solar or flares of any sort, and nothing but a single word in the heading mentions plasma. So no, it doesn't mention solar flares at all, so it can't possibly mean a solar flare is an example of anything. It would be ignorance, stupidity, or a lie to suggest that comment objectively supports the claim that electrical discharges are or are the cause of CMEs and solar flares.

I don't suppose you read his book either, did you?
Click to expand...


No comments from the book have yet supported the silly claim that electrical discharges are or cause solar flares and CMEs. I don't see any reason to read a whole book if the very best quotes the cranks can offer fail so miserably to support the crackpot conjectures. Now maybe if there was some compelling reason, like a shred of objective support.

Didn't you see that commentary about rapid rises of temperatures, ionization, pinches, filaments, stuff like that?
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Stuff like that? That may be how crackpots and cranks do science, but it's not how legitimate scientists do science. I don't see a couple of words and radically and dishonestly assume they must mean some cockamamie claim is true. That's not how it's done by any real scientist.

Excuse me? The only "deficiency" around here is your unwillingness to accept reality.
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The persistent uncivil personal attacks are, as always, noted.

Well, I for one read the work.
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Having read something does not support the claim that electrical discharges are or cause CMEs and solar flares. Many people read many things without having the qualifications to understand them.

Did you read his book or is this another installment of "The Clairvoyant Physicist"?
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The persistent uncivil personal attacks are, as always, noted.

I have provided you with Bruces work. You handwaved at it. I provided you with Lee's work. You did the same. I provided you with Peratt's work, you handwave at it too. I provided you quotes from Alfven explaining that "current carrying" plasmas make "reconnection" completely unnecessary since induction and circuits works perfectly to explain such behaviors.
Click to expand...


Since the reference material provided has been critically refuted as support for the crackpot electric Sun claim, it has not been hand waved, therefore the comment above is a lie.

I have provided you with a direct quote from a plasma physicist from Los Alamos that demonstrates that by definition a flare *IS* an "electrical discharge". All the denial in the world won't make those papers and books go away GM.
Click to expand...


It would be ignorance, stupidity, or a lie to suggest that the Peratt comments provided objectively support the claim that electrical discharges are or are the cause of CMEs and solar flares.

So apparently everything the electric Sun proponents have to offer has been provided. If there's anything else, not a repeat, something new that hasn't been brought up, that would be grand. If not, the claim seems to have failed.
 
GeeMack said:
The claim that nothing in this passage mentions an electrical discharge?.
Click to expand...

Here is Peratt's definition of an "Electrical discharge *IN* (as in inside of, through, etc) Cosmic Plasma*:

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.
Click to expand...

Which part in yellow do you NOT understand about "electrical discharges" *IN* cosmic plasmas?
 
As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating,
Click to expand...

Rapid heating like plasmas going from a "luke warm" 5700K up to *MILLIONS* of degrees kelvin. There's your sign.

ionization,
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Ionization like neon, carbon, iron and nickel that reach *ABSURDLY HIGH* ionization states inside those coronal loops. There's your second sign.

the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels,
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AKA "magnetic ropes/magnetic flux tubes/circuits/current flows/pinches/coronal loops". There's your third sign.

particle acceleration,
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Flares accelerate charged particles to a high percentage of the speed of light. Forth sign.

and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.
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You mean like gamma rays, x-rays, iron ions galore? Fifth sign!

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like duck, eat like a duck, and poops like a duck, don't you think that maybe, just maybe it's a duck?
 
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There is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.
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Ready to rescind that claim yet? Whom shall I believe, you or the guy that works with plasma on a daily basis?

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.
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By Peratt's definition a flare *IS* an "electrical discharge".
 
Alfven desribes this "threshhold" at the double layer conference.

D. The Energy Situation in Sweden and Exploding Double Layers

In Sweden the waterpower is located in the north, and the industry in the south. The transfer of power between these regions over a distance of about 1000 km was first done with a.c. When it was realized that d.c. transmission would be cheaper, mercury rectifiers were developed. It turned out that such a system normally worked well, but it happened now and then that the rectifiers produced enormous over-voltages so that fat electrical sparks filled the rectifying station and did considerable harm. In order to get rid of this, a collaboration started between the rectifier constructors and some plasma physicists at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm.

An arc rectifier must have a very low pressure of mercury vapor in order to stand the high back voltages during half of the a.c. cycle. On the other hand, it must be able to carry large currents during the other half-cycle. It turned out that these two requirements were conflicting, because at a very low pressure the plasma could not carry enough current. If the current density is too high, an exploding double layer may be formed. This means that in the plasma a region of high vacuum is produced: the plasma refuses to carry any current at all. At the sudden interruption of the 1000 km inductance produces enormous over-voltages, which may be destructive.
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That's what Peratt means when he describes a "threshold".

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.
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Michael Mozina said:
That's what Peratt means when he describes a "threshold".
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No, actually, it's not. In the former case, the transition is from a conducting state to an insulating state with increasing current. In the latter case, the transition is from an insulating state to a conducting state with increasing field. Those aren't the same at all.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Oh for crying out loud....

I found you a direct quote that by *DEFINITION* makes a solar flare an "electrical discharge", from a guy that works with plasmas at Los Alamos, and the two of you *STILL* want to argue?!?
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Oh for crying out loud....

You found us a direct quote that by *DEFINITION* makes an electrical discharge a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy.
That same quote talks about centimeter volumes for these discharges and lightning.
The context of the text looks like the generation of laboratory plasma using electrical discharges.

Only in your imagination does this make a solar flare an "electrical discharge".

Anyone who knows the definition of a electrical discharge can understand that Perratt has left out the dielectric media part and will *STILL* argue with you.

But you can prove us wrong: Quote the part of the book where Perratt goes on to actually describe electrical discharges in plasmas, e.g. the physical processes and hopefully the mathematics.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Here is Peratt's definition of an "Electrical discharge *IN* (as in inside of, through, etc) Cosmic Plasma*:

1 .5 Electrical Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.
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Which part in yellow do you NOT understand about "electrical discharges" *IN* cosmic plasmas?
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No part in yellow says anything about "electrical discharges *IN* cosmic plasmas". Nothing. I've read it several times and it still says: "An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy." That's all it says, thirteen words, no cosmic, no plasma. It would be a lie, ignorant, insane, or just plain stupid for anyone with elementary English speaking skills to argue that it suggests electrical discharges cause solar flares and CMEs.

It looks like everything the electric Sun proponents have to offer has been provided. If there's anything else that isn't a rerun, something new that hasn't been brought up, that would be great. Otherwise the claim that electrical discharges cause CMEs and solar flares remains unsupported.
 
GeeMack said:
No part in yellow says anything about "electrical discharges *IN* cosmic plasmas". Nothing.
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Let's try again then:

1 .5 Electrical Discharges in Cosmic Plasma An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.
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Which part in yellow do you *NOW* not understand?
 
Second question:

Do you think that all "discharge" processes magically stop the moment *SOME* material is ionized by an arc discharge?

Third question:

Have you ever used an arc welder before?

Forth question:

What *DO* you do for a living that somehow makes you an "expert" on the proper application of MHD theory *WITHOUT* having to have even bothered to read Alfven's work, or Peratt's work?

Fifth question:

What did Alfven mean by the term "circuit" in reference to events in space?
 
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Where are Peratt's many pages of the physics and mathematics of electrical discharges

Michael Mozina said:
Are you ready to rescind this false claim yet?
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GeeMack and I have nothing to rescind.

By definition it is impossible for an electrical discharge to occur without the breakdown of a dielectric media. Plasmas are conductive and not dielectric media. It is impossible for an electric discharge to happen with plasma. Thus there is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.

Even Anthony Peratt agrees with us as you quoted.
1 .5 Electrical Discharges in Cosmic Plasma
An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.
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Also see Advances in numerical modeling of astrophysical and space plasmas (PDF)where he seems to repeat that page from his book.
  1. "An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy".
  2. "This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium."
The first sentence is what happens during the discharge.
The second sentence is what is required, i.e. the breakdown of the "energy transmission medium". Breakdown in electrical engineering means the transition of an insulating medium to a conducting medium. Conductive medium like plasma cannot break down since they are already broken!

The page never mentions electrical discharges inside plasmas. The closest to that is the section title above. It does mention
  • the generation of particle beams, X-rays and microwaves
  • lightning is noted as "the discharge mechanism at work"!
  • aurora
He seems to be describing the role of electrical discharges in plasma physics, i.e. to generate plasma.

The confirmation of this is the fact that this section is only one page in his book Cosmic Plasma. The table of contents has no other reference to electrical discharges.
So Micheal Mozina:
First Asked 7 December 2010
Where are Anthony Peratt's many pages of the physics and mathematics of electrical discharges within plasma?

I think he is still alive - maybe you can contact him to ask him to cinform that he meant electric discharges in plasma, why his book ignores then except on that one page (according to you MM) and why he ignored such an Nobel Prize winning discovery.
 
Reality Check said:
GeeMack and I have nothing to rescind.
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So you have some special knowledge that allows you to *KNOW* with absolute certainty that no discharge processes are involved in flares? Please provide evidence to support that *CLAIM* of knowledge. YEC'er tend to handwave away tons of evidence of evolutionary theory. What they *NEVER* do is produce evidence to support their claims of knowledge.

By definition it is impossible for an electrical discharge to occur without the breakdown of a dielectric media. Plasmas are conductive and not dielectric media.
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That statement is not true according to Alfven:

If the current density is too high, an exploding double layer may be formed. This means that in the plasma a region of high vacuum is produced: the plasma refuses to carry any current at all. At the sudden interruption of the 1000 km inductance produces enormous over-voltages, which may be destructive.
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Which part of that statement did you not understand?
 
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Please answer this question too RC....

Do you think that all "discharge" processes magically stop the moment *SOME* material is ionized by an arc discharge?
 
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