Scott Sommers
Illuminator
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Most detailed scientific papers for and against controlled demolition
- Thread starter Zeuzzz
- Start date
How can someone be on a fence, between reality and fantasy? 911 truth is entirely fiction.
911 truth is like Zeitgeist, agitprop, and lies. 911 truth, evidence free, fooling those who lack knowledge.
People who don't understand 911 will not understand a new "independent inquiry" and they never read the studies already done; asking for a new investigation is a sign of shallow research and woo. Did you exit the rabbit hole and land in 911 truth fantasy-land?
LOL, there was no controlled demolition, the evidence proves it. You have been fooled by idiots in 911 truth.
Papers, 911 truth failed to find them in 9 years, were they looking?
Some old independent investigations - the ones 911 truth never found...
Modeling pre-evacuation delay by occupants in World Trade Center Towers 1 and 2 on September 11, 2001
Kuligowski, E.D., Mileti, D.S. 2008 Fire Safety Journal
World Trade Center building disaster: Stimulus for innovations
Kodur, V.K.R. 2008 Indian Concrete Journal 82 (1), pp. 23-31
A collective undergraduate class project reconstructing the September 11, 2001 world trade center fire
Marshall, A., Quintiere, J. 2007 ASEE Annual Conference and Exposition, Conference Proceedings
"A new era": The limits of engineering expertise in a post-9/11 world
Pfatteicher, S.K.A. 2007 International Symposium on Technology and Society, Proceedings, art. no. 4362228
Progressive collapse of the World Trade Center: Simple analysis
Seffen, K.A. 2008 Journal of Engineering Mechanics 134 (2), pp. 125-132
Scale modeling of the 96th floor of world trade center tower 1
Wang, M., Chang, P., Quintiere, J., Marshall, A. 2007 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities 21 (6), pp. 414-421
Failure of welded floor truss connections from the exterior wall during collapse of the world trade center towers
Banovic, S.W., Siewert, T.A. 2007 Welding Journal (Miami, Fla) 86 (9), pp. 263-s-272-s
The collapse of the world trade center towers: A metallurgist's view
Gayle, F.W. 2007 MRS Bulletin 32 (9), pp. 710-716
Building code changes reflect world trade center investigation
Hansen, B. 2007 Civil Engineering 77 (9), pp. 22+24-25
The structural steel of the World Trade Center towers
Gayle, F.W., Banovic, S.W., Foecke, T., Fields, R.J., Luecke, W.E., McColskey, J.D., McCown, C., Siewert, T.A. 2006 Journal of Failure Analysis and Prevention 6 (5), pp. 5-8
Progressive collapse of structures: Annotated bibliography and comparison of codes and standards
Mohamed, O.A. 2006 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities 20 (4), art. no. 001604QCF, pp. 418-425
A simple model of the World Trade Center fireball dynamics
Baum, H.R., Rehm, R.G., Quintiere, J.G. 2005 Proceedings of the Combustion Institute 30 II, pp. 2247-2254
Impact of the Boeing 767 Aircraft into the World Trade Center
Karim, M.R., Hoo Fatt, M.S. 2005 Journal of Engineering Mechanics 131 (10), pp. 1066-1072
High-fidelity simulation of large-scale structures
Hoffmann, C., Sameh, A., Grama, A. 2005 Lecture Notes in Computer Science 3515 (II), pp. 664-671
Collapses of the world trade center towers
[No author name available] 2005 Indian Concrete Journal 79 (8), pp. 11-16
Industry updates: Fireproofing, staircases cited in World Trade Center report
[No author name available] 2005 Journal of Failure Analysis and Prevention 5 (4), pp. 34
September 11 and fracture mechanics - A retrospective
Cherepanov, G.P. 2005 International Journal of Fracture 132 (2), pp. L25-L26
Structural responses of World Trade Center under aircraft attacks
Omika, Y., Fukuzawa, E., Koshika, N., Morikawa, H., Fukuda, R. 2005 Journal of Structural Engineering 131 (1), pp. 6-15
Impact of the 2001 World Trade Center attack on critical interdependent infrastructures
Mendonça, D., Lee II, E.E., Wallace, W.A. 2004 Conference Proceedings - IEEE International Conference on Systems, Man and Cybernetics 5, pp. 4053-4058
Use of high-efficiency energy absorbing device to arrest progressive collapse of tall building
Zhou, Q., Yu, T.X. 2004 Journal of Engineering Mechanics 130 (10), pp. 1177-1187
Progressive analysis procedure for progressive collapse
Marjanishvili, S.M. 2004 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities 18 (2), pp. 79-85
Lessons learned on improving resistance of buildings to terrorist attacks
Corley, W.G. 2004 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities 18 (2), pp. 68-78
Anatomy of a disaster: A structural investigation of the World Trade Center collapses
Abboud, N., Levy, M., Tennant, D., Mould, J., Levine, H., King, S., Ekwueme, C., (...), Hart, G. 2003 Forensic Engineering, Proceedings of the Congress, pp. 360-370
World Trade Center disaster: Damage/debris assessment
Thater, G.G., Panariello, G.F., Cuoco, D.A. 2003 Forensic Engineering, Proceedings of the Congress, pp. 383-392
How did the WTC towers collapse: A new theory
Usmani, A.S., Chung, Y.C., Torero, J.L. 2003 Fire Safety Journal 38 (6), pp. 501-533
Microstructural analysis of the steels from Buildings 7, & 1 or 2 from the World Trade Center
Biederman, R.R., Sullivan, E.M., Sisson Jr., R.D., Vander Voort, G.F. 2003 Microscopy and Microanalysis 9 (SUPPL. 2), pp. 550-551
Brannigan, F.L.
"WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 4, (2002): 145-150.
Analysis of the thermal exposure in the impact areas of the World Trade Center terrorist attacks
Beyler, C., White, D., Peatross, M., Trellis, J., Li, S., Luers, A., Hopkins, D. 2003 Forensic Engineering, Proceedings of the Congress, pp. 371-382
Clifton, Charles G.
Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers
HERA: Innovation in Metals. 2001. 13 December 2001.
"Construction and Collapse Factors"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002): 106-108.
Bazant, Z.P., & Zhou, Y.
"Addendum to 'Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? - Simple Analysis" (pdf)
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 3, (2002): 369-370.
Corbett, G.P.
"Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002.): 133-135.
"Dissecting the Collapses"
Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72, no. 5, (2002): 36-46.
Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C.
"Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation"
JOM v. 53, no. 12, (2001): 8-12.
Federal Emergency Management Agency, Therese McAllister, report editor.
World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, Preliminary Observations, and Recommendations
(also available on-line)
Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A.
"Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center"
The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1, (2003): 45-48.
"Collapse Lessons"
Fire Engineering v. 155, no. 10, (2002): 97-103
Marechaux, T.G.
"TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering"
JOM, v. 54, no. 4, (2002): 13-17.
Monahan, B.
"World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations"
Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3, (2002): 134-135.
Newland, D.E., & Cebon, D.
"Could the World Trade Center Have Been Modified to Prevent Its Collapse?"
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 7, (2002):795-800.
National Instititue of Stamdards and Technology: Congressional and Legislative Affairs
“Learning from 9/11: Understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center”
Statement of Dr. Arden L. Bement, Jr., before Committee of Science House of Representatives, United States Congress on March 6, 2002.
Pinsker, Lisa, M.
"Applying Geology at the World Trade Center Site"
Geotimes v. 46, no. 11, (2001).
The print copy has 3-D images.
Public Broadcasting Station (PBS)
Why the Towers Fell: A Companion Website to the Television Documentary.
NOVA (Science Programming On Air and Online)
Post, N.M.
"No Code Changes Recommended in World Trade Center Report"
ENR v. 248, no. 14, (2002): 14.
Post, N.M.
"Study Absolves Twin Tower Trusses, Fireproofing"
ENR v. 249, no. 19, (2002): 12-14.
The University of Sydney, Department of Civil Engineering
World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects
A resource site.
"WTC Engineers Credit Design in Saving Thousands of Lives"
ENR v. 247, no. 16, (2001): 12.
Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C. Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse ? Science, Engineering, and Speculation JOM v. 53 N°12 2001
Clifton, Charles G., Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers, Innovation in Metals 2001
Pinsker, Lisa, M. Applying Geology at the World Trade Center Site Geotimes v. 46, no. 11 2001
Zdenek P. Bazant, Yong Zhou Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse ? - Simple Analysis Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128 N°1 2002
Anne Powell Dissecting the Collapses Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72 N°5 2002
Quintiere, J.G.; di Marzo, M.; Becker, R. A suggested cause of the fire-induced collapse of the World Trade Towers, Fire Safety Journal v. 37 Issue 7 2002
Newland, D. E.; Cebon, D. Could the world trade center have been modified to prevent its collapse ? Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128 Issue 7 2002
Monahan, B. World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3 2002
Brannigan, F.L. WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings Fire Engineering v.155 no. 4 2002
Fema Construction and Collapse Factors Fire Engineering v.155 no. 10 2002
Corbett, G.P. Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster Fire Engineering v.155 no. 10 2002
Norman J. Glover Collapse Lessons Fire Engineering v. 155 no. 10 2002
Burgess, I.W. Fire Resistance of Framed Buildings Physics Education v. 37 (5) 2002
Marechaux, T.G. TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering JOM v. 54, no. 4 2002
Wierzbicki, T.; Teng, X How the airplane wing cut through the exterior columns of the World Trade Center Journal of Impact Engineering v. 28 2003
Usmani, A. S.; Chung, Y. C.; Torero, J. L How did the WTC towers collapse ? A new theory Fire Safety Journal v. 38 2003
Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A. Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1 2003
Biederman, R.R., Sullivan, E.M., Sisson Jr., R.D., Vander Voort, Microstructural analysis of the steels from Buildings 7, & 1 or 2 from the World Trade Center Microscopy and Microanalysis v. 9 2003
Gayle, Frank W.; Banovic, Stephen W. Tim. Foecke The Structural Steel of the World Trade Center Towers Advanced Materials & Processes v. 162 no10 2004
Nadine M. WTC Findings Uphold Structural Design ENR v. 253 no17 2004
Marjanishvili, S.M. Progressive analysis procedure for progressive collapse Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities v. 18 (2) 2004
Corley, W.G. Lessons learned on improving resistance of buildings to terrorist attacks Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities v. 18 (2) 2004
Zhou, Q., Yu, T.X. Use of high-efficiency energy absorbing device to arrest progressive collapse of tall building Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 130 (10) 2004
Karim, Mohammed R.; Fatt, Michelle S. Hoo Impact of the Boeing 767 Aircraft into the World Trade Center. Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 131 Issue 10 2005
Usmani, A. S Stability of the World Trade Center Twin Towers Structural Frame in Multiple Floor Fires Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 131 Issue 6 2005
Omika, Yukihiro.; Fukuzawa, Eiji. Koshika, Norihide Structural Responses of World Trade Center under Aircraft Attacks Journal of Structural Engineering v. 131 no1 2005
Chang, Jeremy; Buchanan, Andrew H.; Moss, Peter J Effect of insulation on the fire behaviour of steel floor trusses Fire and Materials v.29 : 4 2005
Abolhassan, Genady P. Cherepanov September 11 And Fracture Mechanics, a Retrospective International Journal of Fracture v. 132 No. 2 2005
Baum, H.R., Rehm, R.G., Quintiere, J.G. A simple model of the World Trade Center fireball dynamics Proceedings of the Combustion Institute 2005
G. Flint, A.S. Usmani, S. Lamont, J. Torero and B. Lane, Effect of fire on composite long span truss floor systems Journal of Constructional Steel Research v. 62 (4) 2006
Gayle, F.W., Banovic, S.W., Foecke, T., Fields, R.J., Luecke, W.E., McColskey, J.D., McCown, C., Siewert, T.A. The structural steel of the World Trade Center towers Journal of Failure Analysis and Prevention v. 6 (5) 2006
Mohamed, O.A. Progressive collapse of structures: Annotated bibliography and comparison of codes and standards Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities v. 20 (4) 2006
Zdenek P. Bazant, Mathieu Verdure Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 133 No. 3 2007
Banovic, S.W., Siewert, T.A. Failure of welded floor truss connections from the exterior wall during collapse of the world trade center towers Welding Journal v. 86 (9) 2007
Gayle, F.W. The collapse of the world trade center towers: A metallurgist's view MRS Bulletin v. 32 (9) 2007
Hansen, B. Building code changes reflect world trade center investigation Civil Engineering v. 77 (9) 2007
Graeme Flint, Asif Usmani, Susan Lamont, Barbara Lane, and Jose Torero Structural Response of Tall Buildings to Multiple Floor Fires Journal of Structural Engineering v. 133 Issue 12 2007
Ayhan Irfanoglu, Christoph M. Hoffmann An Engineering Perspective of the Collapse of WTC-1, Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities v. 22 No. 1 2008
Keith A. Seffen Progressive Collapse of the World Trade Centre: a Simple Analysis Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 134 No. 2 2008
Zdenek P. Bazant, Jia-Liang Le, Frank R. Greening, David B. Benson What Did and Did not Cause Collapse of WTC Twin Towers in New York Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 134 2008
Cherepanov, G.P. Collapse of towers as applied to September 11 events Materials Science v. 44 2008
Kuligowski, E.D., Mileti, D.S. Modeling pre-evacuation delay by occupants in World Trade Center Towers 1 and 2 on September 11 Fire Safety Journal 2008
Kodur, V.K.R. World Trade Center building disaster: Stimulus for innovations Indian Concrete Journal v. 82 2008
Ming Wang, Peter Chang, James Quintiere, and Andre Marshall Scale Modeling of the 96th Floor of World Trade Center Tower 1 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities v. 21 Issue 6
Genady P. Cherepanov Mechanics of the WTC collapse International Journal of Fracture v. 141 No. 1-2
B.A. Izzuddin, A.G. Vlassis, A.Y. Elghazouli, D.A. Nethercot Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to sudden column loss — Part I: Simplified assessment framework Engineering Structures v. 30, Issue 5 2008
A.G. Vlassis, B.A. Izzuddin, A.Y. Elghazouli, D.A. Nethercot Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to sudden column loss—Part II: Application Engineering Structures v. 30, Issue 5 2008
Jeom Kee Paik, Bong Ju Kim Progressive collapse analysis of thin-walled box columns Thin-Walled Structures v. 46, Issue 5 2008
Cheol-Ho Lee, Seonwoong Kim, Kyu-Hong Han, Kyungkoo Lee Simplified nonlinear progressive collapse analysis of welded steel moment frames Journal of Constructional Steel Research v. 65 Issue 5 2009
Feng Fu, Progressive collapse analysis of high-rise building with 3-D finite element modeling method Journal of Constructional Steel Research in press 2009
A.G. Vlassis, B.A. Izzuddin, A.Y. Elghazouli, D.A. Nethercot, Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to failed floor impact Engineering Structures in press 2009
Santiago Pujol, J. Paul Smith-Pardo A new perspective on the effects of abrupt column removal Engineering Structures, v. 31, Issue 4 2009
Hyun-Su Kim, Jinkoo Kim, Da-Woon An Development of integrated system for progressive collapse analysis of building structures considering dynamic effects Advances in Engineering Software v.40, Issue 1 2009
Jinkoo Kim, Taewan Kim, Assessment of progressive collapse-resisting capacity of steel moment frames Journal of Constructional Steel Research v.65, Issue 1 2009
And some conferences:
Lu Xinzheng, Jiang Jianjing Simulation for the Collapse of WTC after Aeroplane Impact International Conference on Protection of Structures 2002
Dr. Arden L. Bement, Jr. “Learning from 9/11: Understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center” Committee of Science House of Representatives 2002
Abboud, N., M. Levy, D. Tennant, J. Mould, H. Levine, S. King, C. Ekwueme, A. Jain, G. Hart. Anatomy of a Disaster: A Structural Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapses Third Congress on Forensic Engineering 2003
Beyler, C., D. White, M. Peatross, J. Trellis, S. Li, A. Luers, D. Hopkin Analysis of the Thermal Exposure in the Impact Areas of the World Trade Center Terrorist Attacks Third Congress on Forensic Engineering 2003
Thater, G. G.; Panariello, G. F.; Cuoco, D. A. World Trade Center Disaster: Damage/Debris Assessment Third Congress on Forensic Engineering 2003
Choi, S.K., Burgess, I.W. and Plank, R.J. The Behaviour of Lightweight Composite Floor Trusses in Fire Designing Structures for Fire 2003
Venkatash K. R. Kodur Role of fire resistance issues in the collapse of the Twin Towers International Conference on Tall Buildings 2003
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl World Trade Center Collapse, Field Investigation and Analysis the Ninth Arab Structural Engineering Conference 2003
Mendonça, D., Lee II, E.E., Wallace, W.A. Impact of the 2001 World Trade Center attack on critical interdependent infrastructures IEEE International Conference on Systems 2004
Kuldeep Prasad and Howard R. Baum Coupled fire dynamics and thermal response of complex building structures Proceedings of the Combustion Institute 2005
Jowsey et all Determination of Fire Induced Collapse Mechanisms in Steel Framed Structures 4th European Conference on Steel and Composite Structures 2005
Usmani et all Collapse scenarios of WTC 1 & 2 with extension to generic tall buildings Congress on Fire Safety in Tall Buildings 2006
Marshall, A., Quintiere, J. A collective undergraduate class project reconstructing the September 11, 2001 world trade center fire ASEE Annual Conference and Exposition 2007
Pfatteicher, S.K.A "A new era": The limits of engineering expertise in a post-9/11 world International Symposium on Technology and Society 2007
Razdolsky, L. Fire load in a steel building design 4th International Structural Engineering and Construction Conference 2008
Rini, D., Lamont, S. Performance based structural fire engineering for modern building design Structures Congress 2008
There is more studies, hundreds are proprietary, but you can buy them.
After you finish these papers and study the conference notes; if you are still on the fence, you are not going to fall for rational work on 911, and you will prefer the Zeitgeist, agitprop kind of woo.
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
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I hope you never sit on a jury. Your ability to judge facts and evidence is sorely lacking.
TruthersLie
This space for rent.
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You intentionally keep misquoting my name. That is a rules violation. I would like you to stop it stundieErgo
I've given you that list. I have NEVER ONCE said that the list of peer reviewed papers "supports Bazant" or "supports NIST." I have stated that those 100 papers support PARTS of the ENTIRE official narrative. I have stated that those papers show that peer review gets you in the game to discuss your ideas. Then I ask a simple question. How many peer reviewed papers have truthers EVER managed to get published? I conceed the 14 points "paper" (which is crap), I conceed the 6 "SCADS" "papers" even though I question their scientific methodology. I ask for peer reviewed ENGINEERING/PHYSICS papers... Do you have any? Didn't think so.
"scoreboard. scoreboard. scoreboard."
You have tried to hand wave it away completely and utterly failed. YOur argument fell into its own footprint at the speed of ignorance.
Have you yet figured out
into vs onto?
essentially vs actually
center of mass?
What allowed the caracas tower to remain standing?
And from your latest gem... you need to look up "minor" because it doesn't mean what you think it means.
I've given you that list. I have NEVER ONCE said that the list of peer reviewed papers "supports Bazant" or "supports NIST." I have stated that those 100 papers support PARTS of the ENTIRE official narrative. I have stated that those papers show that peer review gets you in the game to discuss your ideas. Then I ask a simple question. How many peer reviewed papers have truthers EVER managed to get published? I conceed the 14 points "paper" (which is crap), I conceed the 6 "SCADS" "papers" even though I question their scientific methodology. I ask for peer reviewed ENGINEERING/PHYSICS papers... Do you have any? Didn't think so.
"scoreboard. scoreboard. scoreboard."
You have tried to hand wave it away completely and utterly failed. YOur argument fell into its own footprint at the speed of ignorance.
Have you yet figured out
into vs onto?
essentially vs actually
center of mass?
What allowed the caracas tower to remain standing?
And from your latest gem... you need to look up "minor" because it doesn't mean what you think it means.
TruthersLie
This space for rent.
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Personally I think he was being generous. I generally think that many of the "twoof" and good ole
I could be wrong.
P'doh used to claim he had a masters in mathematics (and I personally saw no reason to doubt it.) If only he would talk to that "old bitter mechanical engineer" he knew because he would have been put on the right track. Oh well.
Scott Sommers
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2009
- Messages
- 3,866
I am a PhD candidate in Educational Psychology in a Mandarin-taught program where I study measurement and test design. I am the the co-director of what is probably the largest non-proprietary language test in the world. I have writen several books and articles on Taiwan history and given dozens of academic and non-academic presentations on education in Taiwan.
This is all pretty easy to find with a simple web search. But I guess our Truther friends here has shown once again how committed they are to posting real facts.
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Scott,
Uh, yeah, he is. IMO, of course.
That opinion was built over many, many posts. Not just yours.
It's not unbelievable in the slightest. Lots of people, even smart people, even college grads, even teachers, believe some really dumb stuff.
Your academic chauvinism is showing.
There are cases, like this one, where you one is MORE inclined to believe something idiotic if one is a college student or grad.
Most folks with no background whatsoever are willing to listen to the experts. It's the folks with a little bit of knowledge (physics students, high school teachers & engineers in unrelated disciplines) that crash & burn because they think they know enough to assess the arguments.
The problem is not a lack of understanding of structural engineering. Nor is it lack of basic smarts.
The real problems are 1) dysfunctional epistemologies, 2) raging cases of adolescent distrust of all authority, 3) out of control intellectual egos, and occasionally 4) clinical paranoia.
The "ego" part is exactly what trips up folks like Steven Jones, David Chandler, Tony Szamboti, etc.
I think that this could be a superb "teaching opportunity".
Not for structural engineering.
For general epistemology.
A MUCH more valuable, more widely applicable lesson.
Uh, yeah, he is. IMO, of course.
That opinion was built over many, many posts. Not just yours.
It's not unbelievable in the slightest. Lots of people, even smart people, even college grads, even teachers, believe some really dumb stuff.
Your academic chauvinism is showing.
There are cases, like this one, where you one is MORE inclined to believe something idiotic if one is a college student or grad.
Most folks with no background whatsoever are willing to listen to the experts. It's the folks with a little bit of knowledge (physics students, high school teachers & engineers in unrelated disciplines) that crash & burn because they think they know enough to assess the arguments.
The problem is not a lack of understanding of structural engineering. Nor is it lack of basic smarts.
The real problems are 1) dysfunctional epistemologies, 2) raging cases of adolescent distrust of all authority, 3) out of control intellectual egos, and occasionally 4) clinical paranoia.
The "ego" part is exactly what trips up folks like Steven Jones, David Chandler, Tony Szamboti, etc.
I think that this could be a superb "teaching opportunity".
Not for structural engineering.
For general epistemology.
A MUCH more valuable, more widely applicable lesson.
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Scott Sommers
Illuminator
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Actually, I am not making an elite statement. Nor is this intended as an insult. This is an empirical fact. I have surveyed thousands of people who claim to believe in this 911-conspiracy-type-stuff. This is almost completely true. Most Truthers that I know have dropped out of college and some number of them work at Wal-Mart or similar types of retail stores. Other very common occupations are low-level software programming and technical people in the music/broadcast industry. Steve Jones and the group you cite are the rare exception. In an earlier discussion, I drew the comparison with military organizations that are run at the top by very well-educated elites but are overwhelmingly staffed by the poorly educated. Truther groups are much the same.
In fact, these well-educated Truthers you talk about have very little to do with Truthing anymore. Gage appeared at the 911 conspiracy memorial organized by We Are Change last September 2010. You can read about the composition of WAC in my article published by Skeptic Magazine that appears in my signature.
Go join Facebook groups that cater to Truthers and become their friends'.There are several conspiracy-oriented webcast that also have Facebook groups. We are talking hundreds or thousands of people now. Go monitor these guys for a while. Chat with them. Phone in to their webcast. You won't be disagreeing with me anymore.
I agree with you completely. I don't have the patience or position for this. Conspiracy theories like this are not found among my students, friends or contacts. I doubt there is much chance for them here.
I do agree my energy would be much more effectively spent trying to reach the people that I'm calling names. I personally lack the initiative to do this, and I agree that this is a personal weakness as an educator and a scientist.
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ergo
Illuminator
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Edited by kmortis:
Removed personal remarks
Does Skeptic Magazine know about this bogus list of published papers, most of which have nothing to do with the current official collapse explanation? Do they know that you consort with people online who habitually lie and fabricate so-called "facts" about 9/11, including the veracity and relevance of this list? Do they know this list gets adulterated and spammed, most recently, as you can see above, with double and triple entries of the same irrelevant papers?
Are they aware that there is currently no outside scientific corroboration of Bazant's "crush down, crush up" theory of structural collapse which has been used to explain the destruction of the towers? Are they aware of this? If they're not, I guess someone should probably make them aware.
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TruthersLie
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Then feel free to show skeptic magazine, or any other peer reviewed journal that the current understanding is incorrect.
what are you waiting for
You could be the HERO of the truth movement.
Come on Ergo, please publish something. Anything. The twoof needs you.
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Regarding Cherepanov's "Fracture Wave" theory:
I have no idea of Cherepanov's stature in the theoretical mechanics field. I looked up his theories about 2 years ago when I first heard of them. I never heard his name in any of my materials or fracture mechanics classes.
They don't apply to the towers. They don't apply to steel, period. (Perhaps at ultracryogenic temperatures.
They apply to brittle, very low toughness (i.e., energy absorption capacity) materials. Like a few specialized glasses & a curiosity called "Duke (Something's) Drops", IIRC. This last item is made by dropping molten glass into water. It forms tiny drops that look like tadpoles. A round head and a long, long tail. The strange thing about them is that the heads are really, really tough, like tempered glass. But a huge amount of residual stress is formed when the shrinking head jets out the tail during cooling. So you can smash the head, and it will survive. But if you merely flick the tail, the whole thing will blow apart.
Fracture wave have never been seen in steel (AFAIK). Steel, especially structural steel, is specifically chosen for large structures because it is ductile and has a very high toughness. I remember also reading this critique of his work, (which, coming out of Northwestern, I assume is by Bazant) and agreeing with it.
There were no fracture waves at the WTC towers. Otherwise, the whole structure, top to bottom, would have exploded into tiny shards of steel in a few tens of milliseconds. All the way to the base.
This did not happen.
Cherepanov knows that this did not happen. I read some of his writings on his website, and thought that he's a little loose in the loafers and politically driven.
JMO on Cherepanov's motives. But his theory is irrelevant to 9/11.
tk
I have no idea of Cherepanov's stature in the theoretical mechanics field. I looked up his theories about 2 years ago when I first heard of them. I never heard his name in any of my materials or fracture mechanics classes.
They don't apply to the towers. They don't apply to steel, period. (Perhaps at ultracryogenic temperatures.
They apply to brittle, very low toughness (i.e., energy absorption capacity) materials. Like a few specialized glasses & a curiosity called "Duke (Something's) Drops", IIRC. This last item is made by dropping molten glass into water. It forms tiny drops that look like tadpoles. A round head and a long, long tail. The strange thing about them is that the heads are really, really tough, like tempered glass. But a huge amount of residual stress is formed when the shrinking head jets out the tail during cooling. So you can smash the head, and it will survive. But if you merely flick the tail, the whole thing will blow apart.
Fracture wave have never been seen in steel (AFAIK). Steel, especially structural steel, is specifically chosen for large structures because it is ductile and has a very high toughness. I remember also reading this critique of his work, (which, coming out of Northwestern, I assume is by Bazant) and agreeing with it.
There were no fracture waves at the WTC towers. Otherwise, the whole structure, top to bottom, would have exploded into tiny shards of steel in a few tens of milliseconds. All the way to the base.
This did not happen.
Cherepanov knows that this did not happen. I read some of his writings on his website, and thought that he's a little loose in the loafers and politically driven.
JMO on Cherepanov's motives. But his theory is irrelevant to 9/11.
tk
ImANiceGuy
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Ergo,
Why hasn't anyone come forward from the Controlled Demolition companies admitting that they're the ones that "rigged" all 3 WTC buildings?
If you claim that it's a conspiracy & they were paid "hush money", then that's not the way a conspiracy works.
So far, in over 9 yrs., not a single CD expert has come forward to claim that they "did it".
Unsound logic: If an "inside job" took place on 9/11, then someone would have confessed to it. Therfore, it did not happen.
I chose to replace "CD" with the term "Inside job" in my example above, because I am not a proponent of CD conspiracies.
My personal stance does not negate the incorrect reasoning.
There was no inside job. Because you don't have the same CD delusion as other people who failed to figure out 911, does not mean you have any evidence. In fact you share the same evidence for your afraid to say what happened delusions as all of 911 truth; zero.
It is not that someone would confess, it is a fact if it was an inside job there would be evidence for the idiotic schemes 911 truth puts forth; no one knows your fantasy, so you are correct, your plot may be inside job super secret, not able to solve! The big inside job, which you can't share because of ...? Why? What is your big inside job lie? Plot? Scam?
As for the government being able to do an inside job like 911, they could, but I doubt anyone one in the United States is willing to cut pilot throats, and crash planes into buildings. I doubt anyone would sign up for committing suicide to kill people like it was done on 911. It was done by 19 people, and the evidence proves it, the evidence you and 911 truth fail to comprehend. The demolition delusion is far out, and only a few morons believe it, and no one has evidence for it as you have discovered.
911 truth has to ignore all of the independent studies, papers, works, and more to come up with their delusional claims on 911. Are you too afraid to define and explain your crazy claims, and offer rebuttal to the many works already done? 911 truth only product is failure; they will succeed for a 10th year, evidence free and moving into the salad years of perpetual stupidity.
^
Incredibly dishonest answer to a simple and straight-forward question.
The markings of a true believer trying to pretend he is open-minded.
Be careful not to get any hemorrhoids.
ImANiceGuy
Critical Thinker
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Please take my criticism constructively. I understand you are very passionate about the 9/11 issue; this doesn't excuse ridiculous posting. I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't read your posts anymore. Hell, I don't have to read them, they're all the same.
I'm hoping you read this with an open mind and reply thoughtfully, but I am fully expecting an energetic, unchanged typical B'nut post. Please prove me wrong so I can be proud of you too. Also, if theres anything you want to know about me B'nut....just ask, I'll respond honestly.
There was no inside job. Because you don't have the same CD delusion as other people who failed to figure out 911, does not mean you have any evidence. In fact you share the same evidence for your afraid to say what happened delusions as all of 911 truth; zero.
This sentence is not making any sense...
It is not that someone would confess, it is a fact if it was an inside job there would be evidence for the idiotic schemes 911 truth puts forth; no one knows your fantasy, so you are correct, your plot may be inside job super secret, not able to solve! The big inside job, which you can't share because of ...? Why? What is your big inside job lie? Plot? Scam?
1) Chewy said very clearly that it is about someone confessing.
2) What exactly do you want to know from me? Set up a thread.Ask away
As for the government being able to do an inside job like 911, they could, but I doubt anyone one in the United States is willing to cut pilot throats, and crash planes into buildings. I doubt anyone would sign up for committing suicide to kill people like it was done on 911. It was done by 19 people, and the evidence proves it, the evidence you and 911 truth fail to comprehend. The demolition delusion is far out, and only a few morons believe it, and no one has evidence for it as you have discovered.
1) Argument from incredulity noted. (Certain to never be called on faulty logic by other debunker/skeptic members. As long as you're making a point in their favor.)
2) So we agree there is no evidence for CD. Shouldn't you be proud of me?
911 truth has to ignore all of the independent studies, papers, works, and more to come up with their delusional claims on 911. Are you too afraid to define and explain your crazy claims, and offer rebuttal to the many works already done? 911 truth only product is failure; they will succeed for a 10th year, evidence free and moving into the salad years of perpetual stupidity.
Don't forget how many websited they've producedAlso, their main product is profit, not truth.
I'm hoping you read this with an open mind and reply thoughtfully, but I am fully expecting an energetic, unchanged typical B'nut post. Please prove me wrong so I can be proud of you too. Also, if theres anything you want to know about me B'nut....just ask, I'll respond honestly.
ImANiceGuy
Critical Thinker
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Contrarily, I would hope for Zeuzz x 12 on my jury!