Primitivism Discussion

quixotecoyote said:
I'm pretty sure constructing and assembling heavy machinery is currently less physically demanding than road construction.
Click to expand...

Seriously? You're pretty sure that there's no backbreaking work left? Do you know any working class people in developed countries, let alone those children who stoop over rubbish heaps trying to survive in your global economy? Is this another localised position? "Well nobody in my home does backbreaking work?". Somebody does backbreaking work to keep you there. Those alive (who would, let's concede, be fewer in number, have less books and possibly live less long than at present) could be doing the wabbit hunting and meal grinding that broke nobody's back, if it wasn't for the primitiviphobes who insisted on those 'below' them doing some backbreaking work for the benefit of all (and by 'all', I mean 'some'. Or rather 'a few').
 
jiggeryqua said:
Seriously? You're pretty sure that there's no backbreaking work left? Do you know any working class people in developed countries, let alone those children who stoop over rubbish heaps trying to survive in your global economy? Is this another localised position? "Well nobody in my home does backbreaking work?". Somebody does backbreaking work to keep you there. Those alive (who would, let's concede, be fewer in number, have less books and possibly live less long than at present) could be doing the wabbit hunting and meal grinding that broke nobody's back, if it wasn't for the primitiviphobes who insisted on those 'below' them doing some backbreaking work for the benefit of all (and by 'all', I mean 'some'. Or rather 'a few').
Click to expand...

I'm looking at this post.

Then I look back at the post it responded to:

I'm pretty sure constructing and assembling heavy machinery is currently less physically demanding than road construction
Click to expand...

I'm at a loss as to why you think what you wrote related to what I wrote.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Or you could live in the real world where people are trying to make a genuine difference.

I would rather have everyone on roughly the same tier of development as the first world, but as it stands today because of the decisions of the past, we aren't in that place and that sucks. What that means however, is that we should strive to raise up those who live in disadvantaged areas, be they poverty stricken areas of the West or third world countries and push them slowly but surely towards a modern standard of living.

I think it's criminal that your average Kenyan doesn't get to benefit from much modern medicine. I see the solution to the imbalance as lifting the Kenyan to our level without denying ourselves out of a sense of martyrdom. You seem to see this as being elitist, simply because I realistically acknowledge that we are a privileged few.

Give me a reason that I should give up modern medicine, the only reason I am alive today, purely because others have no access to it. Why should I die just because they do too? Isn't it better to use it when you can and help others get it to rather than denying ourselves out of some self-righteous sense that we shouldn't be so elitist as to use what medicine we can?
Click to expand...

See my argument above (though it was couched as an anecdote about 'development', it was an argument nonetheles. The only way they could have what you have is if they came and robbed it back).
 
quixotecoyote said:
I'm looking at this post.

Then I look back at the post it responded to:



I'm at a loss as to why you think what you wrote related to what I wrote.
Click to expand...

That's because you've selectively quoted yourself! Wouldn't it be funny if that was the first time that had happened! I contend your primitiviphobic lifestyle is constructed on the back of primitives. I have least been consistent in that. That you limit your enquiry to work that is not backbreaking is perplexing. I'm at a loss as to why you think that could relate to what I wrote.
 
jiggeryqua said:
That's because you've selectively quoted yourself!
Click to expand...

Liar.


Wouldn't it be funny if that was the first time that had happened! I contend your primitiviphobic lifestyle is constructed on the back of primitives. I have least been consistent in that. That you limit your enquiry to work that is not backbreaking is perplexing. I'm at a loss as to why you think that could relate to what I wrote.
Click to expand...
Incoherent.
 
Yeah he's trolling.


Moving back to the people who want to have a serious discussion....
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Well, are you?
Click to expand...

No. Sometimes people disagree with you and they're not joking. I know! Crazy, ain't it? There's people who appear to all intents and purposes to be intelligent and yet they still disagree with you. Clearly, you aren't unintelligent, so either they're 'pseudo-intellectual' (I think I may be conflating threads, sorry) or they're pulling your leg. That, or there's still some things that intelligence hasn't established unequivocably and which remain open to debate. I'm happy to debate them, even if people want to heckle with 'Oh yeah, hah hah, you're just having us on, very good, very funny, properly intelligent people don't make jokes, intelligence is a serious business.

Talking of serious business, can Africa develop as the developed countries did, without raping Africa, as the developed countries did? Seriously, can technology be built without backbreaking work by relative primitives?
 
jiggeryqua said:
No. Sometimes people disagree with you and they're not joking. I know! Crazy, ain't it? There's people who appear to all intents and purposes to be intelligent and yet they still disagree with you. Clearly, you aren't unintelligent, so either they're 'pseudo-intellectual' (I think I may be conflating threads, sorry) or they're pulling your leg. That, or there's still some things that intelligence hasn't established unequivocably and which remain open to debate. I'm happy to debate them, even if people want to heckle with 'Oh yeah, hah hah, you're just having us on, very good, very funny, properly intelligent people don't make jokes, intelligence is a serious business.

Talking of serious business, can Africa develop as the developed countries did, without raping Africa, as the developed countries did? Seriously, can technology be built without backbreaking work by relative primitives?
Click to expand...
There's a difference between disagreeing with me and raving incoherently whilst effectively insisting that if I don't stop using the modern medicine that's kept me alive these last 23 years I might as well have raped Africa myself. Honestly, if you aren't trolling for laughs, you're an absolute lunatic.


ETA: In fact, your incoherent ramblings have such little basis in reality I'm wondering if you aren't trying to make primitivists look bad.
 
Last edited:
quixotecoyote said:
Liar.
Click to expand...

Ah, there we are then. How do you propose we establish the facts? Or did you expect your accusation to stand unquestioned? You selectively quoted yourself. That was my claim, to which you answer 'liar'. But you selected part of your post to quote. You selectively quoted yourself. Turns out I was telling the truth. Which makes your 'liar' a lie. Liar.[/quote]


quixotecoyote said:
Incoherent.
Click to expand...

Well if you want to boast about your limited understanding, so be it. I could say 'try a little harder', but if you're one of those people who shouts at foreigners in your own language that probably won't help.
 
jiggeryqua said:
Ah, there we are then. How do you propose we establish the facts? Or did you expect your accusation to stand unquestioned? You selectively quoted yourself. That was my claim, to which you answer 'liar'. But you selected part of your post to quote. You selectively quoted yourself. Turns out I was telling the truth. Which makes your 'liar' a lie. Liar.
Click to expand...

You could establish that you are not a liar by comparing the post you say I selectively quoted to the original and highlighting any parts I left out.

Well, in theory. In practice that won't make you look any better.

If you are drunk posting, now would probably be a good time to take a break.
 
Last edited:
MarkCorrigan said:
There's a difference between disagreeing with me and raving incoherently whilst effectively insisting that if I don't stop using the modern medicine that's kept me alive these last 23 years I might as well have raped Africa myself. Honestly, if you aren't trolling for laughs, you're an absolute lunatic.


ETA: In fact, your incoherent ramblings have such little basis in reality I'm wondering if you aren't trying to make primitivists look bad.
Click to expand...

Bless. I apologised in PM for the flippant comment in a community thread that you took exception to. No need to hold a grudge. There may well be people in your audience who'll buy your interpretation of this exchange, and I don't seriously expect to be inviting you round for dinner any time soon, but I assure you I'm not playing for laughs. Perhaps you could come up with some sound arguments, rather than just trying to disparage me?
 
quixotecoyote said:
You could establish that you are not a liar by comparing the quote you say I selectively quoted to the original and highlighting any parts I left out.

Well, in theory. In practice that won't make you look any better.

If you are drunk posting, now would probably be a good time to take a break.
Click to expand...

Aw, bless, you added the drunk bit in between my clicking 'reply' and your quote appearing in my reply box. How cool is that.

You're right, I could go to the effort of showing that you lifted a sentence from a longer post, and you could hope that I don't and that nobody goes back and sees that you did. I'll settle for not bothering, and not bothering about the opinion of those that don't scroll back to say 'oh yeah, he selectively quoted himself and then claimed he didn't and then floundered a bit and then settled for claiming the other fella was drunk'. Do you really live in a world where people don't tell the truth to you?
 
jiggeryqua said:
Aw, bless, you added the drunk bit in between my clicking 'reply' and your quote appearing in my reply box. How cool is that.

You're right, I could go to the effort of showing that you lifted a sentence from a longer post, and you could hope that I don't and that nobody goes back and sees that you did. I'll settle for not bothering, and not bothering about the opinion of those that don't scroll back to say 'oh yeah, he selectively quoted himself and then claimed he didn't and then floundered a bit and then settled for claiming the other fella was drunk'. Do you really live in a world where people don't tell the truth to you?
Click to expand...


Goodbye little lying troll. You've ceased to amuse me for the evening.
 
I just wanted to thank all for the discussion, and encourage everyone to keep it as friendly as possible.

I don't know about anyone else but, I am drunk (internet high five) and tired so will be going to sleep now, I will address some of the open topics tomorrow. Also, I will try to post a brief summary of my position which may allow for more targeted conversation.

Sincerely, thank you all for your contribution.
 
jiggeryqua said:
Bless. I apologised in PM for the flippant comment in a community thread that you took exception to. No need to hold a grudge. There may well be people in your audience who'll buy your interpretation of this exchange, and I don't seriously expect to be inviting you round for dinner any time soon, but I assure you I'm not playing for laughs. Perhaps you could come up with some sound arguments, rather than just trying to disparage me?
Click to expand...
First of all, I didn't "take offence" to anything. I realised it was a poorly thought out joke and I moved on. Why are you bringing it up? What, I can't decide that your incoherent ravings are incoherent without bearing a grudge?

Secondly, you seem to be making the following claims:

1. Modern society is built on the backs of Third World countries, mostly African ones.

2. This continues into the modern day, with abuse of African people and resources by the West.

3. I am advocating for the abuse of the third world because I refuse to give up modern medicine.

4. My refusal to give up modern medicine is also evidence that I want to keep the third world down so I can continue my current standard of living for a select few only.

5. It's only possible for non industrialised nations to rise to an industrialised status by subjugating others as they were once subjugated.


If any of those statements do not adhere to your beliefs, then tell me where I am wrong and I will correct them.




Adressing them one by one, I fully agree that number 1 is absolutely without doubt true. I completely agree that a large part of why my country is where it is now is by abuse of third world countries, which led to them being third world. I think this is tragic, because it didn't have to be that way, but it is how it is.

Number 2 is partly true, but it also doesn't have to be. I'd rather increase funding into impoverished and less developed areas considerably, use the UN's reach and resources to help growth and education in these countries, and prevent as much as possible corporations and other entities from abusing the vulnerable. It isn't an easy option, but it's what I believe is the right one.

Number 3 is simply insane. In no way is my use of medicine advocating "the rape of Africa" or any other abuse of a third world nation. Would you rather my parents let me die immediately after I was born? Refusing to use modern comforts and benefits doesn't help anyone. It's no more helping the people in the third world than it is helping me make a rocket powered by eggs. It's simply foolhardy to insist that we let people die just because the modern world was built upon the backs of others.

4 is a direct contradiction of my words in this very thread. I want everyone to have access to the top quality medical care that I do, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to stop using it in protest. All that would get me is dead, and I'd rather not die right now thank you. Ever heard of the phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? It's most apt here.


5 is simply not true at all. It's entirely possible to industrialise without subjugating others and raping the land. Is it easy? No. Is it possible to do it totally painlessly? No, but no one would think it needs to be surely? Given the rise in available technology in the very recent past, things are possible now that would not have been possible during the rise of the Western powers. Science has come on so much more since then, and e need to embrace it and use it, not hide it away because our nations have a shameful past.


What does the developing world need? Well it needs money, it needs resources, it needs power and it needs education.

Money is easy, although it's not often easy to make sure it gets to the right people. A streamlining of aid funds and help from the UN to ensure that the money gets to where it's needed would help dramatically, I'd imagine.

Resources are not so easy, but far from impossible, since there is a large amount to go around of most things. It's not like we're running out of iron or anything, and Africa has a large amount of natural resources of it's own. Currently the problem is getting them out of the hands of tyrants and warlords and getting them to the people in the areas that could benefit more from them. The West should and must pay a fairer price for the resources of the developed world and is beginning to make small but real steps towards doing so. Once the trade is fair again, Africa should steadily improve in this category too, nd that will help them get more money.

Power is the easiest of the lot, but shouldn't be implemented too soon. Nuclear reactors and renewable energy sources such as solar, while expensive, would be able to power Africa for thousands of years to come. Ok, it won't be easy getting the West to part with it's power sources so easily, but it can be done and should be done. Training (which also falls under education) should be given in the areas to ensure that the locals don't need outside help for long after startup, or even beforehand if the training programs are begun early enough. Once the power is online, Africa will have surmounted a huge step towards becoming more economically developed.

The final and most important category is education. This is both the easiest and the hardest category to implement, because while we live in an age where knowledge is so far advanced that we can sit maybe thousands of miles from one another and hold this conversation, or share ideas and facts, the dissemination to other places is far from fair or even. What is needed is some way of putting Western educators in to train African educators. If the African education system is properly funded, purged of corruption, and takes place in a more economically stable system, it will rocket away quite quite easily. The people of the third world are not stupid, they simply need the chances that we in the West get.

All four of those can be implemented by the West. We sure as hell did indeed put them in the hole they are in now, and we can, with lots of money, enormous controlled and concentrated effort, we really can help the less economically developed countries to help themselves, and while it won't be a utopian process, it doesn't have to be as blood-soaked or as manipulative as the rise of the West was, simply because the West has risen above it's old, dare I say more primitive self.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
First of all, I didn't "take offence" to anything. I realised it was a poorly thought out joke and I moved on. Why are you bringing it up? What, I can't decide that your incoherent ravings are incoherent without bearing a grudge?

Secondly, you seem to be making the following claims:

1. Modern society is built on the backs of Third World countries, mostly African ones.

2. This continues into the modern day, with abuse of African people and resources by the West.

3. I am advocating for the abuse of the third world because I refuse to give up modern medicine.

4. My refusal to give up modern medicine is also evidence that I want to keep the third world down so I can continue my current standard of living for a select few only.

5. It's only possible for non industrialised nations to rise to an industrialised status by subjugating others as they were once subjugated.


If any of those statements do not adhere to your beliefs, then tell me where I am wrong and I will correct them.




Adressing them one by one, I fully agree that number 1 is absolutely without doubt true. I completely agree that a large part of why my country is where it is now is by abuse of third world countries, which led to them being third world. I think this is tragic, because it didn't have to be that way, but it is how it is.

Number 2 is partly true, but it also doesn't have to be. I'd rather increase funding into impoverished and less developed areas considerably, use the UN's reach and resources to help growth and education in these countries, and prevent as much as possible corporations and other entities from abusing the vulnerable. It isn't an easy option, but it's what I believe is the right one.

Number 3 is simply insane. In no way is my use of medicine advocating "the rape of Africa" or any other abuse of a third world nation. Would you rather my parents let me die immediately after I was born? Refusing to use modern comforts and benefits doesn't help anyone. It's no more helping the people in the third world than it is helping me make a rocket powered by eggs. It's simply foolhardy to insist that we let people die just because the modern world was built upon the backs of others.

4 is a direct contradiction of my words in this very thread. I want everyone to have access to the top quality medical care that I do, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to stop using it in protest. All that would get me is dead, and I'd rather not die right now thank you. Ever heard of the phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? It's most apt here.


5 is simply not true at all. It's entirely possible to industrialise without subjugating others and raping the land. Is it easy? No. Is it possible to do it totally painlessly? No, but no one would think it needs to be surely? Given the rise in available technology in the very recent past, things are possible now that would not have been possible during the rise of the Western powers. Science has come on so much more since then, and e need to embrace it and use it, not hide it away because our nations have a shameful past.


What does the developing world need? Well it needs money, it needs resources, it needs power and it needs education.

Money is easy, although it's not often easy to make sure it gets to the right people. A streamlining of aid funds and help from the UN to ensure that the money gets to where it's needed would help dramatically, I'd imagine.

Resources are not so easy, but far from impossible, since there is a large amount to go around of most things. It's not like we're running out of iron or anything, and Africa has a large amount of natural resources of it's own. Currently the problem is getting them out of the hands of tyrants and warlords and getting them to the people in the areas that could benefit more from them. The West should and must pay a fairer price for the resources of the developed world and is beginning to make small but real steps towards doing so. Once the trade is fair again, Africa should steadily improve in this category too, nd that will help them get more money.

Power is the easiest of the lot, but shouldn't be implemented too soon. Nuclear reactors and renewable energy sources such as solar, while expensive, would be able to power Africa for thousands of years to come. Ok, it won't be easy getting the West to part with it's power sources so easily, but it can be done and should be done. Training (which also falls under education) should be given in the areas to ensure that the locals don't need outside help for long after startup, or even beforehand if the training programs are begun early enough. Once the power is online, Africa will have surmounted a huge step towards becoming more economically developed.

The final and most important category is education. This is both the easiest and the hardest category to implement, because while we live in an age where knowledge is so far advanced that we can sit maybe thousands of miles from one another and hold this conversation, or share ideas and facts, the dissemination to other places is far from fair or even. What is needed is some way of putting Western educators in to train African educators. If the African education system is properly funded, purged of corruption, and takes place in a more economically stable system, it will rocket away quite quite easily. The people of the third world are not stupid, they simply need the chances that we in the West get.

All four of those can be implemented by the West. We sure as hell did indeed put them in the hole they are in now, and we can, with lots of money, enormous controlled and concentrated effort, we really can help the less economically developed countries to help themselves, and while it won't be a utopian process, it doesn't have to be as blood-soaked or as manipulative as the rise of the West was, simply because the West has risen above it's old, dare I say more primitive self.
Click to expand...

Well, there's a lot to be said for verbosity. Let's see how much of it I can be fagged to deal with.

No, you don't have to be holding a grudge to decide I'm 'incoherent'. That someone so obviously intelligent dismisses an opposing position as 'incoherent' saddens me, but you're right, it may not be a grudge. It may just be that you are unafraid to admit that your intelligence is limited and you cannot make sense of an attempt to communicate. As I mentioned, that does strike me as not dissimilar to the sort of chap that shouts 'oy, abdul, let's have some more poppadoms over here'. But perhaps there's a third option I haven't seen. Perhaps you're drunk? Who knows.

'Number 3' is not not only insane, it's also fictional. That it strikes you as insane may be because you invented it... It may be true (it likely is) that not exploiting Africa (then or now) would result in the death of children. Children die. Now. In your advanced, developed, primitiviphobic world. Most of them in Africa, I'd wager. Those that live will likely be engaged in backbreaking work to satisfy your developed economy.

'Number 4' is too, I think. I'm not sure what you're saying there (which is only one step away from ordering poppadoms from Abdul, I grant you, but at least I didn't suggest you must be drunk).

Number 5 makes more sense, before it gets bogged down in inventing things that I might think. My development point still holds - Africa cannot follow the developed world's path precisely. That same lecturer (of anecdote fame) celebrated 'trickle down' economics. If only the priviliged few hadn't built a bath with such high sides, so that relatively little wealth slopped over and trickled down.

"Money is easy". Yeah, right. Tell me you're not quite near the apex of the pyramid. Money is easy... It has to come from somewhere, though. Will it come from the budget that kept you alive? Or the budget that kept someone else alive?

"It's not like we're running out of iron or anything". Or anything? We're running out of everything. Finite world, infinite imagination. Reality will win out.

I appreciate your earnest desire to do the right thing by Africa, but not only drunks disagree with your earnest belief that it will happen soon enough, almost by accident. I'd disagree with you sober, too, and the fact that your first recall is to call me 'drunk' says something.

Your final point is tried and tested. They called them 'missionaries' at the time (and still do, I fear).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom