Merged Discussion of the moon landing "hoax"

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hal5001 said:
The same David Icke who wore turquoise shellsuits for two years in the early 90's because he believed them to give him cosmic energetic powers?:)
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And appeared on the UKs biggest chat show saying he was the son of God.
 
watch the screen top left, no astronaut. No movement whatsoever.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFMpmjEv9o0

The upper left image is too small to make out any movement. The main screen which blows it up shows the movement. I see lots of movement. How can you say there's no movement?

This is what you pro-Apoll people do when you're cornered. You talk nonsense with an authoritative patronizing attitude until the issue blows over. Then you go on as if nothing had happened and the issue gets buried deep in the thread.

Your main underlying strategy seems to be to bury this issue.
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5237480&postcount=2245

You know that nobody is buying your lame explanations for the movement of Collins' jacket corner so all you can do is try to bury the issue.

The same David Icke who wore turquoise shellsuits for two years in the early 90's because he believed them to give him cosmic energetic powers?
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My theory is that David Icke works for the government. His function is to associate serious conspiracy theories with wacky theories to discredit them. If a guy who believes in reptilians and wears special clothes that he thinks give him cosmic powers says the moon missions were faked, it helps to discredit the whole hoax theory. This whole thing about alien bases on the moon is another one of the governments ideas to muddy the waters and draw attention away from the idea that it was hoaxed because the theory that they don't go back because of alien bases there assumes they really went.

David Shaler is another government puppet.
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#s...gc.r_pw.&fp=905e9081899b75b1&biw=1440&bih=756

He started out as a serious 9/11 truther. After he'd become well known, he started claiming divinity. It's all an act. He helps make people think that all 9/11 truthers are wacky just like David Icke helps make people think all moon hoax-believers are wacky.

The evidence that they faked the moon missions is crushing and the only way you can sway people's opinions is to try to keep people from seeing it by burying it when people post it.
http://www.politicalforum.com/moon-...n-missions-were-faked-studio.html#post3989720
 
He started out as a serious 9/11 truther. After he'd become well known, he started claiming divinity. It's all an act. He helps make people think that all 9/11 truthers are wacky just like David Icke helps make people think all moon hoax-believers are wacky.
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Thats how whackjobbery starts, they start of small and work upwards.
 
FatFreddy88 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFMpmjEv9o0

The upper left image is too small to make out any movement. The main screen which blows it up shows the movement. I see lots of movement. How can you say there's no movement?
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Ha ha. Listen to you doing a complete reverse on your previous contention of a doctored video!

I said there was no movement between the times indicated. Then suddenly, movement when the astronaut appears, six feet away at least. The main screen is what shows no movement, the little screen shows the astronaut out of shot.

This is what you pro-Apoll people do when you're cornered. You talk nonsense with an authoritative patronizing attitude until the issue blows over.
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This is what you do on every forum where you get cornered. You stick your head in the sand and ignore completely irrefutable evidence that your insane spam is wrong.

You consistently ignore every question aimed at you, despite numerous requests. You were asked to list the items you felt were "crushing evidence", but all you do is repeat your spammed link over and over.

Then you go on as if nothing had happened and the issue gets buried deep in the thread.
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The issue has been resolved, you had your butt kicked.

1. The videos demonstrated movement at six feet away and 4 feet away, debunking your "wall of air". You were asked to cite evidence for this, but refuse every time you are asked.

2. After denying the movement, by saying the videos were doctored, you provided a video that supposedly refuted the 2 videos made by the user betamax101, which actually confirmed the exact same movement.

3. You then contended (back peddling and contradicting yourself!!) that there were movements after all:rolleyes: but that they are drafts of air.

4. I showed using your video, that before the astronaut arrived, there was clearly no movement.

5. You say you can see clear movement now, despite the fact that the video you presented between 1 min 3 seconds and 1 min 5 seconds doesn't move at all.

Truly, you are a very sad person who is incapable of conceding defeat.

You lost, really badly and obviously, and everybody can see that.

Your main underlying strategy seems to be to bury this issue.
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My main underlying strategy is to refute your theory. Yours, however, is to obfuscate and tap dance around, and deny everything. Spam link removed from quote.

You know that nobody is buying your lame explanations for the movement of Collins' jacket corner so all you can do is try to bury the issue.
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On the contrary, I expect every single person who sees the videos produced to counter your claims, and listens to the arguments presented will see you are quite barking mad.

1. You were presented with 3 videos, that showed the cuffs hovering on Collins' arm, the sleeves also clearly with air in them and floating, the back of his jacket all puffed up and billowing as he moved, his dogtags floating in front of him moving from side to side, his body rising up weightless and a knee high / waist high square object also floating.

2. You denied that the tags were floating when they were. You haven't acknowledged the back of his jacket puffed up. You tap danced around his cuffs and sleeves obviously floating. You denied his body raising with something along the lines of "his knees were bent", and you flat out denied the knee object as moving at all.

3. After a few back and forth posts, you then uttered the (backpeddling and contradictory) phrase "if it turns out there was floating":rolleyes: they filmed it on a plane and got careless!!

4. Since the flight of these planes changes between weightless and progresses up to twice gravity in a very short time, having weightless signs and gravity at the same time is impossible. These planes don't flip back and forth to make your ridiculous shoehorned theory fit.

......just like David Icke helps make people think all moon hoax-believers are wacky.
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We don't need David Icke to help with that.

The evidence that they faked the moon missions is crushing......
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The only thing crushed around here, is every single argument you have presented. All you can do is ignore it and fake blindness.

Spam link removed from your quote.

Now, in a list of short bullet points, list some "crushing evidence".

n.b. Let's take it as read that everyone has seen your link, which doesn't list anything not seen and dismantled over and over again.

My prediction is that you will refuse to do this, because you will be taken apart on every single point.
 
FatFreddy88 said:
Have you seen this video of David Icke's?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1485155465058882626#

They argue the moon hoax in that video but they also argue some wacky theories about mile-long space creatures. The people who made that video were trying to discredit the hoax theory by associating it with wacky theories. David Icke seems to be part of the controlled opposition. The objective of the moderators on that forum is to make sure that the moon hoax threads show that the pro-Apollo people are winning the debates. I started a thread about the flag waving with a long analysis that dealt with all the theories such as static electricity and vibration and the moderator deleted it as soon as he saw it. If someone puts forth some good evidence that the pro-Apollo posters can't obfuscate on a thread, the pro-Apollo posters bury it with their BS the moderator helps them do it.

Here's some of the stuff that happened on the David Icke forum.
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144487&page=54
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Isn't that the point? Your post get deleted from one of the most loony sites on the web because they are worse than the "normal" wingnut posts over there.
FatFreddy88 said:
By the way, I said the same thing about the video "Secret Space" at the "Unexplained Mysteries" forum and they simply deleted my post.
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Can't say I blame them.
 
FatFreddy88 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFMpmjEv9o0

The upper left image is too small to make out any movement. The main screen which blows it up shows the movement. I see lots of movement. How can you say there's no movement?

This is what you pro-Apoll people do when you're cornered. You talk nonsense with an authoritative patronizing attitude until the issue blows over. Then you go on as if nothing had happened and the issue gets buried deep in the thread.

Your main underlying strategy seems to be to bury this issue.
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5237480&postcount=2245

You know that nobody is buying your lame explanations for the movement of Collins' jacket corner so all you can do is try to bury the issue.


My theory is that David Icke works for the government. His function is to associate serious conspiracy theories with wacky theories to discredit them. If a guy who believes in reptilians and wears special clothes that he thinks give him cosmic powers says the moon missions were faked, it helps to discredit the whole hoax theory. This whole thing about alien bases on the moon is another one of the governments ideas to muddy the waters and draw attention away from the idea that it was hoaxed because the theory that they don't go back because of alien bases there assumes they really went.

David Shaler is another government puppet.
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#s...gc.r_pw.&fp=905e9081899b75b1&biw=1440&bih=756

He started out as a serious 9/11 truther. After he'd become well known, he started claiming divinity. It's all an act. He helps make people think that all 9/11 truthers are wacky just like David Icke helps make people think all moon hoax-believers are wacky.
The evidence that they faked the moon missions is crushing and the only way you can sway people's opinions is to try to keep people from seeing it by burying it when people post it.
http://www.politicalforum.com/moon-...n-missions-were-faked-studio.html#post3989720
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It's working.

:dl:
 
I for one am waiting for the list of crushing evidence that the moon landings were hoaxed.
 
FatFreddy88 said:
Jay Windley and all the regular posters at the Clavius forum know the moon missions were faked.
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Wrong. I don't speak for Jay, but I have been a regular poster at apollohoax, though not so much lately. I do not think the Apollo missions were faked; quite the opposite, in fact. I also have the education and relevant professional experience to evaluate a significant amount of the Apollo record, unlike you. Of course, if you wish to cite relevant educational or professional experience, you are most welcome to do so.

FatFreddy88 said:
Clavius is a government damage-control site. It was probably thought up by a public-relations agency. Here's some info on the Clavius forum. <link spam deleted>
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Also wrong. Clavius is produced by one individual, on his own time and own dime. If you have actual relevant evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it here, if you can actually make a coherent argument in your own words. No one is obliged to indulge your link-spamming.
 
sts60 said:
Wrong. I don't speak for Jay, but I have been a regular poster at apollohoax, though not so much lately. I do not think the Apollo missions were faked; quite the opposite, in fact. I also have the education and relevant professional experience to evaluate a significant amount of the Apollo record, unlike you. Of course, if you wish to cite relevant educational or professional experience, you are most welcome to do so.



Also wrong. Clavius is produced by one individual, on his own time and own dime. If you have actual relevant evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it here, if you can actually make a coherent argument in your own words. No one is obliged to indulge your link-spamming.
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I am also a poster on Apollohoax and a Mod on BAUT. Like STS60 I do not think the Apollo missions were faked.
 
Since davidc/rocky/FF88 can't come up with a coherent narrative of why or how Apollo was "hoaxed", and can't provide any evidence for the truly vast program that would have been required to pull off the hoax not only at the time, but for the decades since, and clearly doesn't grasp the Apollo record, or the technical, managerial, or historical aspects involved, and has to deny large chunks of physics and engineering to support his notions, and has to appeal to everyone - not just all the scientists and engineers and satellite builders and operators in the world - who doesn't agree with him as being part of the Grand Conspiracy, there's really no point in arguing about the YouTube snippets and claims he regurgitates from conspiracist web sites. The problem isn't that his claims are wrong; it's that he hasn't even gotten to the point where being wrong even matters.

Really, the only interesting point is why he must believe that the Apollo missions were faked, despite not really knowing anything about them. Is it a religious thing? Is he angry that the U.S. accomplished this? Does he simply not like the idea that humans could realize the dream of thousands of generations and travel to another world? Is it an inferiority complex? Who knows? Maybe even he doesn't know.
 
sts60 said:
Since davidc/rocky/FF88 can't come up with a coherent narrative of why or how Apollo was "hoaxed", and can't provide any evidence for the truly vast program that would have been required to pull off the hoax not only at the time, but for the decades since, and clearly doesn't grasp the Apollo record, or the technical, managerial, or historical aspects involved, and has to deny large chunks of physics and engineering to support his notions, and has to appeal to everyone - not just all the scientists and engineers and satellite builders and operators in the world - who doesn't agree with him as being part of the Grand Conspiracy, there's really no point in arguing about the YouTube snippets and claims he regurgitates from conspiracist web sites. The problem isn't that his claims are wrong; it's that he hasn't even gotten to the point where being wrong even matters.

Really, the only interesting point is why he must believe that the Apollo missions were faked, despite not really knowing anything about them. Is it a religious thing? Is he angry that the U.S. accomplished this? Does he simply not like the idea that humans could realize the dream of thousands of generations and travel to another world? Is it an inferiority complex? Who knows? Maybe even he doesn't know.
Click to expand...

It's a conceit. I'm guessing that his life isn't going as planned (whose does?) and the consolation prize is this fantasy he's built wherein he's part of a privileged elite who know the truth. The rest of us are just drones who go along with the "system" and live quite comfortable lives of ignorance. We're "Sheeple" if you will. He might even think that he's going to lead a revolution where the truth will come out and he'll topple the Illuminati, NWO, Masons, Rotary Club International or whoever he thinks is secretly in charge.
 
 
sts60 said:
Since davidc/rocky/FF88 can't come up with a coherent narrative of why or how Apollo was "hoaxed", and can't provide any evidence for the truly vast program that would have been required to pull off the hoax not only at the time, but for the decades since, and clearly doesn't grasp the Apollo record, or the technical, managerial, or historical aspects involved, and has to deny large chunks of physics and engineering to support his notions, and has to appeal to everyone - not just all the scientists and engineers and satellite builders and operators in the world - who doesn't agree with him as being part of the Grand Conspiracy, there's really no point in arguing about the YouTube snippets and claims he regurgitates from conspiracist web sites. The problem isn't that his claims are wrong; it's that he hasn't even gotten to the point where being wrong even matters.

Really, the only interesting point is why he must believe that the Apollo missions were faked, despite not really knowing anything about them. Is it a religious thing? Is he angry that the U.S. accomplished this? Does he simply not like the idea that humans could realize the dream of thousands of generations and travel to another world? Is it an inferiority complex? Who knows? Maybe even he doesn't know.
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Actually, that is interesting.

He has painted himself into a corner where he must invent whatever justification is needed for his position.

I wonder why he has?
 
FatFreddy88 said:
<snip>

Watch it fast before it goes off-line.
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Yes FF the MiB are just around the corner, waiting to take down videos. Sure they are. Those guys in the white coats, why they are just there to "help" you.
FatFreddy88 said:
Right now I'm watching Jarrah White's new series about the moon rocks.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MoonFaker:+Moon+Rocks+Revisited&aq=f
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Ya mean the ones where he just makes stuff up?

FatFreddy88 said:
Here's some more stuff about the rocks.
http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/atmosphaerenfahrt/28_moon-stones-from-Earth-ENGL.html
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MoonFaker:+Exhibit+D&aq=f
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AQQHTjeMkA
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Here is the thing.

Rocks are dense.

You should avoid rocks as you would sink and drown.
 
abaddon said:
Actually, that is interesting.

He has painted himself into a corner where he must invent whatever justification is needed for his position.

I wonder why he has?
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His modus operandi, is deny everything, seagull posting and accuse everybody of being in on "it". The number of questions and posts he has ignored is quite numerous now.

The video I put up in my last post, demonstrated how he contradicts himself, with some real shoot yourself in the foot stuff.

Despite being asked to summarise his top ten, he still keeps ignoring this and assuming his linkbarf does that.

Collins' jacket has been completely refuted, in every possible way, and now, his "atmosphere explanation" is also kicked in the teeth by his own mentor Jawwa.

Watch this, it really is quite wonderfully self debunking of JW...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JixGapxKURc
 
Erock said:
His modus operandi, is deny everything, seagull posting and accuse everybody of being in on "it". The number of questions and posts he has ignored is quite numerous now.

The video I put up in my last post, demonstrated how he contradicts himself, with some real shoot yourself in the foot stuff.

Despite being asked to summarise his top ten, he still keeps ignoring this and assuming his linkbarf does that.

Collins' jacket has been completely refuted, in every possible way, and now, his "atmosphere explanation" is also kicked in the teeth by his own mentor Jawwa.

Watch this, it really is quite wonderfully self debunking of JW...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JixGapxKURc
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Those made me LOL. Thanx.
 
FatFreddy88 said:
Here's something for any objective people who may be lurking. <link spam deleted>
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Do you really want to appeal to the "lurkers" again? That didn't work very well for you when you tried that on apollohoax. Nineteen "lurkers" responded and every one of them said you were wrong; a few questioned your sanity.

FatFreddy88 said:
Watch it fast before it goes off-line.
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Breathless appeal to paranoia noted. No one cares unless there is a violation of YouTube's TOS. There are no secret government MIB enforcers scouring the Internet for hoax claims.

But, amusingly, you immediately contradict your own implication by spamming more links to conspiracist YouTube videos...
FatFreddy88 said:
Right now I'm watching Jarrah White's new series about the moon rocks. <more link spam removed>
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Isn't that the kid who thought that a "polar orbit" meant a spaceship hiding by circling above one of Earth's poles? Nice source. I'm not really interested in watching idiot YouTube videos. Why don't you make an argument of your own, or at least put the claim in to words, and provide some evidence for it?

FatFreddy88 said:
Here's some more stuff about the rocks.
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More link spam, more lack of a coherent argument.

As I noted above, you're not even to the point yet where constantly being wrong even matters. This is because you can't put together a coherent narrative, let alone get the facts right or provide any evidence for your claim, or in general demonstrate any understanding of the subject.

So why don't you put some of the effort you spend Googling conspiracist web sites and videos into actually learning something about the subject? Why the absolute refusal to try to understand it before issuing knee-jerk denials and accusing everyone who doesn't agree with you of being part of some vast conspiracy? Is it a religious thing? Are you angry that the U.S. did it? Or what?

By the way, you're still wrong on this little gem:
FatFreddy88 said:
Jay Windley and all the regular posters at the Clavius forum know the moon missions were faked.
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?
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In fact, two apollohoax regulars (myself and Captain Swoop) both pointed out that we "know" nothing of the sort. Feel free to issue a correction.
 
I'm also an ApolloHoax regular - well, lurker, mostly - and I also do not "know" the missions were faked; quite the opposite, really - as well as one of the folks who delurked there in response to "FatFreddy88"'s appeal to lurkers.
 
sts60 said:
In fact, two apollohoax regulars (myself and Captain Swoop) both pointed out that we "know" nothing of the sort. Feel free to issue a correction.
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I'll add my name to the "list". I've "known" Jay for more than 8 years, and what freddy is saying is SO wrong...

Freddy, why would you post something that could almost instantly be debunked??...doesn't bode well to your investigative "skill set".
 
Craig4 said:
It's a conceit. I'm guessing that his life isn't going as planned (whose does?) and the consolation prize is this fantasy he's built wherein he's part of a privileged elite who know the truth. The rest of us are just drones who go along with the "system" and live quite comfortable lives of ignorance. We're "Sheeple" if you will. He might even think that he's going to lead a revolution where the truth will come out and he'll topple the Illuminati, NWO, Masons, Rotary Club International or whoever he thinks is secretly in charge.
Click to expand...

Or, as I like to say it" Conspiracy Theories are the opiates of the self-impressed.
 
FatFreddy88 said:
Here's something for any objective people who may be lurking.
http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/?action=view&current=Roverplantsreflector.mp4

Watch it fast before it goes off-line.

Right now I'm watching Jarrah White's new series about the moon rocks.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MoonFaker:+Moon+Rocks+Revisited&aq=f

Here's some more stuff about the rocks.
http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/atmosphaerenfahrt/28_moon-stones-from-Earth-ENGL.html
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MoonFaker:+Exhibit+D&aq=f
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AQQHTjeMkA
Click to expand...

A lurker here. Get back to reality. Find a new hobby,the Moon landings happened.
 
JohnG said:
I suppose you haven't even briefly considered the possibility that Icke and his followers are completely sincere in their beliefs and that they think you are the disinfo agent attempting to discredit them by saying "wacky" things?

No, no of course you haven't. That's what makes it funnier...and sadder. By all means carry on. It's perversely entertaining for the rest of us to observe. Sort of like watching Aliens vs. Predator...though in this case Jawas vs. Ewoks might be more apt.
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It's always fun to watch people projecting, isn't it?
 
To grmcdorman and dafydd.

Look at the jacket corner in the first video and the straps in the second video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fqdB1b53jc
(00:50 time mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofwzby1c7o
(3:17 time mark)

Does it look to you like both movements are in the same environment?

Does the movment of these jacket corners look different from the movement of Collins' jacket corner?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTNGNW5Evs4

Does this look to you like the same environment that Collins is in.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TejsnPThmd4


Are any of you pro-Apollo people even going to watch Jarrah's new series on the rocks?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MoonFaker:+Moon+Rocks+Revisited&aq=f
 
FatFreddy88, this was discussed to death on ApolloHoax and here:
  1. It is not "clearly" in gravity.
  2. Even were it so, it only indicates that one item is questionable. To prove the Apollo missions were faked, you must prove the positive: an alternative narrative supported by evidence. No one to date has done so.
Your assertions are hogwash, to borrow one of Jay Windley's favourite phrases.
 
It is not "clearly" in gravity.
Even were it so, it only indicates that one item is questionable. To prove the Apollo missions were faked, you must prove the positive: an alternative narrative supported by evidence. No one to date has done so.

Your assertions are hogwash, to borrow one of Jay Windley's favourite phrases.
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You didn't address the actual questions. Please address the actual questions.
 
Nitpicking real or imagined "anomalies" in videos and images is not very convincing to me in light of the entire weight of evidence that the missions happened as advertised, IMO. FatFreddy88 you'll certainly not find much support on ANY real skeptic's forum, I'm afraid.

You might as well be declaring that the Normandy Invasion was a hoax by showing us pictures from it that "just don't look right".
 
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Nitpicking real or imagined "anomalies" in videos and images is not very convincing to me in light of the entire weight of evidence that the missions happened as advertised, IMO. FatFreddy88 you'll certainly not find much support on ANY real skeptic's forum, I'm afraid.
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Translation-

If I try to obfuscate that clear evidence that Collins was in gravity, I'll just end up looking silly so I'd better tap dance around and avoid addressing the actual questions.
 
FatFreddy88 said:
Translation-

If I try to obfuscate that clear evidence that Collins was in gravity, I'll just end up looking silly so I'd better tap dance around and avoid addressing the actual questions.
Click to expand...

Correct translation: You are completely owned. Those videos demonstrated that every single piece of so called evidence you presented was cobblers.

The tags float in mid air. The cuffs hover off of his sleeve. The back of his jacket billows about. He rises with no visible support.

Troll.
 
FatFreddy88 said:
Translation-

If I try to obfuscate that clear evidence that Collins was in gravity, I'll just end up looking silly so I'd better tap dance around and avoid addressing the actual questions.
Click to expand...

O really? So you want to go there, huh? Well then, the actual translation is I, and just about everybody else on Earth who isn't in your delightfully irrational cult, could give a crap about your little questions. You are wrong, and horribly so. The landings happened, and the evidence to support them is copious and incontrovertible. It is you and a tiny group of idiots against the world.

There is absolutely NOTHING you can do about that reality.
 
FatFreddy88 said:
Look at the jacket corner in the first video and the straps in the second video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fqdB1b53jc
(00:50 time mark)
Click to expand...

I just watched the part of the video you mentioned and the jacket does not show signs of gravity, quite the opposite in fact. Look at the section above the flap (just above where the pocket opening is typically located) - it stays afloat away from his body. If the flap were in gravity it would pull on the rest of the jacket and flatten out the bulge.

No question about it, this video shows a lack of gravity.
[resume lurking]
 
The back of his jacket billows about.
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Billowing is not a sign of zero-G. If the jacket were loose in the back with nothing under it, it would bounce up and down on his back in zero-G.

Now tell us why the straps in this video have no tendency to go down...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofwzby1c7o
(3:17 time mark)

...and the corner of Collins' jacket has a tendency to go down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fqdB1b53jc
(00:50 time mark)

Just answer the questions. Don't tap dance around and avoid them.
 
Look at the section above the flap (just above where the pocket opening is typically located) - it stays afloat away from his body. If the flap were in gravity it would pull on the rest of the jacket and flatten out the bulge.
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There are wrinkles in the jacket because it appears to be tied in the back at his belt. I can't see how it stays afloat away from his body. The bulge is between wrinkles.

Now tell us why the straps in this video have no tendency to go down...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofwzby1c7o
(3:17 time mark)

...and the jacket corner in this video has a tendency to go down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fqdB1b53jc
(00:50 time mark)

Do you think it's because of the same reason that these jacket corners have no tendency to go down?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTNGNW5Evs4

Tell us why these jacket corners don't have a tendency to go down and Collins' does.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TejsnPThmd4
 
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