Deeper than primes - Continuation

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doronshadmi

Penultimate Amazing
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Posted By: Tricky

Notion #1:

If we use partitions in order to define Entropy, then a multiset (a repetition of the same identity) has an entropy that is equivalent to the number of the repetitions that exists within it.

Since a set has no repetitions, it has no entropy.

Let us examine the partitions that exist within any given n > 1

{x} = Full entropy
{x} = Intermediate entropy
{x} = No entropy

2
---
{1,1}


3
---
{1,1,1}
{2,1}


4
---
{1,1,1,1}
{2,1,1}
{2,2}
{3,1}


5
---
{1,1,1,1,1}
{2,1,1,1}
{2,2,1}
{3,1,1}
{3,2}
{4,1}


6
--
{1,1,1,1,1,1}
{2,1,1,1,1}
{2,2,1,1}
{2,2,2}
{3,1,1,1}
{3,2,1}
{3,3}
{4,1,1}
{4,2}
{5,1}


7
---
{1,1,1,1,1,1,1}
{2,1,1,1,1,1}
{2,2,1,1,1}
{2,2,2,1}
{3,1,1,1,1}
{3,2,1,1}
{3,2,2}
{4,1,1,1}
{4,2,1}
{5,1,1}
{5,2}
{6,1}

...

As can be seen, Prime numbers have the least entropy, from this point of view.




Notion #2:

If we understand the Sieve of Eratosthenes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_of_Eratosthenes ) as a whole\part framework, than number 0 is the most dense part of it, and the set of primes is the least dense part of it.

In order to see it, let as represent the Sieve of Eratosthenes by non-finite frequencies notated by half circles, along a non-finite straight-line.

The first frequency is the non-finite collection of half circles that are representing the frequency level 1.

The next frequency is the non-finite collection of half circles that are representing the frequency level 2.

….

The next frequency is the non-finite collection of half circles that are representing the frequency level n.

Etc., … etc. …

Since the non-finite frequencies are synchronized with each other in Zero point, then 0 is the most dense part of the Sieve of Eratosthenes.

The least dense part of the Sieve of Eratosthenes is the set of prime numbers, because each prime number is a synchronization between no more than 3 frequencies, which are level 0, level 1 and the level of the prime itself.

Here is the diagram of the Sieve of Eratosthenes, represented as non-finite levels of synchronized half circles:

Tedarim6.jpg


At the left side of this diagram we can see the Zero point, and the first 20 primes are mareked along the 0_level line.

-------------------------------------------------------

The non-local ur-element is the maximum entropy of itself (no differences can be found within it). Also a local ur-element is the maximum entropy of itself (no differences can be found within it).

Maximum entropy exists in both non-locality and locality, but they are opposite by their self nature, so if non-locality and locality are associated, then a non-entropic domain is created.

The history of such a domain is written by symmetry, where at the first stage symmetry is so strong that no outcome of this domain has a unique identity, and all we have is a superposition of identities.

Symmetry is collapsed because the opposite properties of non-locality and locality are expressed more and more until each local ur-element has a unique identity of its own.

This uniqueness, which is anti-entropic by nature, cannot exist without the association between the non-local and the local.

Opposite properties do not contradict each other, if they are based on NXOR connective.

A NXOR connective enables the existence of NXOR\XOR logic (non-locality and locality are associated, and associated realms have more than one entropy level).

A XOR connective does not enable the existence of NXOR\XOR logic (non-locality and locality are isolated, and isolated realms have maximum entropy).

Please read pages 13-14 of my work called Eventors ( http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/Eventors.pdf ).

I think that the organic approach (the associations between the non-local and the local) is the accurate way to understand the realm that we are an inseparable part of it.

--------------------------------------------------

Let us re-examine these cases:

Case 1: associated realms have more than one entropy level.

Case 2: isolated realms have maximum entropy.

In case 1 NXOR is associated with XOR and we get an open realm because both NXOR and XOR go beyond their self state of maximum (and opposite state of) entropy.

In case 2 there is no association between NXOR and XOR, and each opposite is closed upon its own maximum entropy, and nothing exists beyond these closed and isolated opposite maximum entropies.

In a complementary realm, each opposite is opened to an "off spring" outcome, which is beyond its own isolated state (an isolated realm has maximum entropy).

About dimensions:

If an organic realm is the result of the associations between the non-local and the local, than our measurement tools must express this association.

For example, let us take the place value method.

If we look at it from both parallel and serial points of view, we get a fractal-like structure, which is a mixed pattern of both parallel and serial parts upon finite/non-finite scales.

Let us examine this structure by using bases 2,3 and 4:

234.jpg


The traditional place value system is based only on the serial broken-symmetry building-block, which is used to define non-finite fractals upon non-finite scale levels, where the structure of each fractal is determine by the serial broken-symmetry building-block that is used.

Furthermore, the traditional method ignores the whole/part relations that exists in such fractals and uses single paths along them as measurements tools, for example:
Pi representation in base 10 is a single path along a base 10 fractal, and this single path is notated as 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510 …
where each numeral represents a different scale level along this fractal.

The organic approach changes at least two things here:

1) The fractal-like structure is based on both parallel and serial building-blocks.

2) There can be simultaneously more than a one path , and as a result our measurement tool is not limited to a single path of numerals, but it can be a tree of several paths made of several building-blocks with different symmetrical states, which simultaneously determine the structure of what I call Organic fraction. Here is an example of an organic fraction that is based on different bulging-blocks taken from bases 2,3 and 4:

ONNfrac.jpg


So as can be seen, the 4D model is just the standard approach to start with.

In order to deal with Organic fractions, a parallel/serial Turing-like model has to be formulated.

I am in a state of "Michael Faraday"-like* here that seeks for "James Clerk Maxwell"-like** in order to do that.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday
** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell

I think that since non-locality is involved here, then any formulation of Organic fractions must be incomplete and therefore open (this is a positive interpretation of Gödel's work).

Please read this message to Prof. Mandelbrot http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/2Mandelbrot.pdf .

In my opinion, meaningful frameworks exist as long as there is a difference between X-model and X (which is also a positive interpretation of Gödel's work).
 
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Your pulpit talk is the only thing in the universe which is not finite, coz it became infinitely boring.
Since I care about your infinite boring of my work, you are going right away to my ignore list, bye.

Welcome to the club epix.

Any bets on how long before Doron has everyone even remotely willing to reply to him on his “ignore list”?
 
It has to be stressed that the first post does not represent the developments that were done for the past 4 years of this thread.

Also all the links (Wikipedia is excluded) of the first post are not available anymore because Yahoo closed Geocities.

So the following links are some of the last developments with are related to concepts like Entropy, Complexity, Unity awareness, and the Mathematical science as a comprehensive framework of Ethics (in terms of evolutionary scale) and formal Logic:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7617572&postcount=16472

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7672352&postcount=16583

----------------

I wish to share with you my reasoning about the concept of Complexity, and how it is related to Ethics and Logic.

It is well known that one of the most powerful tools that our civilization uses is The Mathematical Science.

One of the main reasons of the efficiency of this science is the universal principles that stand at its foundations.

Because of these universal principles our civilization achieved its current technology, but the motivations and use of these technologies are not based on universal principles.

In my opinion non-universal principles that are fragmented to different cultures, religions, nations etc… + technology that is derived from universal principles, is a very dangerous cocktail that may lead us to self-made destruction.

In my opinion one of the ways to reduce the chance of self-made destruction is to define a universal framework that may be used as a common base ground for both Ethics and Logical reasoning.

For the past 30 years I am trying to develop such a framework, and this goal is definitely beyond the abilities of a single person.

Anyway, I wish to share with you some of my last results (and please forgive me about my English (my language is Hebrew)) which draw some sketches of this universal framework.

I call this framework Organic Mathematics, or OM.

OM ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/17039028/OMDP ) demonstrates Direct Perception ( Unity awareness, as demonstrated by analogy in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7672352&postcount=16583 ) as the common foundation of both Intuition and Logical reasoning. Furthermore, Direct Perception is actually the base ground of any mantel activity, whether it is expressed by senses, emotions, or logical reasoning.

Direct Perception is actually the silent presence of any mantel activity, which enables to bridge our ethical aspects with our logical\technological aspects under a one framework.

The lack of Direct Perception as the base ground of a powerful language like the mathematical science, can easily lead us to manipulate deeper forces of Nature, which are not balanced by universal ethical principles (universal ethical principles must not be limited to any particular religion, culture or civilization).

In my opinion if our species will not learn very soon how to develop the universal bridge between Ethics and Logics under a one comprehensive framework, we shell not survive further manipulations of Nature's forces.

Please look at:

Mathematics As a Tool For Survival:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16547236/EEM

and http://www.scribd.com/doc/16669828/EtikaE
for clearer representation of my argument (and again, sorry about my English).

More comprehensive papers abut this subject are:

Zeno's Achilles\Tortoise Race and Reconsiderations of Some Mathematical Paradigms
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21967511/TOC-NEW2

Organic Mathematics (A Non-formal Introduction):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16542245/OMPT

ORGANIC MATHEMATICS, Proposing a way to solve Hilbert's 6th Problem:
http://ijpam.eu/contents/2008-49-3/5/5.pdf [1]

[1] Moshe Klein, Doron Shadmi : Organic Mathematics, International Journal of Pure and Applied Mathematics, volume 49 No. 3 2008, 329-340
 
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Welcome to the club epix.

Any bets on how long before Doron has everyone even remotely willing to reply to him on his “ignore list”?
You can "hack" into Doron's Ignore List and un-ignore yourself pretty quickly. Just peruse again his "Foreword," which includes the map that shows you how to get to his Ignore List. Here is a lovely pond with young woods nearby.
Pi representation in base 10 is a single path along a base 10 fractal, and this single path is notated as 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 10 …
where each numeral represents a different scale level along this fractal.
At that time, Doron didn't suspect that his pupils suffer from "complete lack of visual_spacial skills" and so he didn't include the visual_spacial rendition of the Pi fractal. Maybe he thought that his intriguing opening would captivate his audience to the point of googling up the fractal to see its intricacies. But the attempt leads to uncertainty.
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-97491.html

Obviously, the curiosity of seeing Pi fractal grows when one realizes that the word fractal wasn't chosen randomly: fractal --> fraction --> division --> Cantor dust

gasket1.gif


Since Pi is an infinite number, it cannot be broken or divided the way the classic fractals can or self-repeated on a diminishing scale. In order to negotiate this obstacle take the digits of Pi 314159265..., break them apart and, voila, here is the fractal 3 1 4 1 5 9 2 6 5... Simple.

Interestingly enough, there are options to various quasi-fractals and it took a PhD to identify such a case:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lves-riddle-Britains-complex-crop-circle.html

Now it takes a few key strokes more (describing Doron's inability to grasp the concept of a fractal) and "Enter" to get un-ignored. But I don't want to venture that far coz I cherish my membership in that club.
 
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Do you think that any afford to develop a comprehensive scientific framework, which enables Ethics and formal Logic to be its consistent factors, is important?

I'd like to keep an open mind about the subject - as I try to do with most subjects - but I have to say, up until this point I haven't yet been convinced of the validity / worthiness of OM. Some may say it's because I don't have the training in mathematics that I need to "get" OM, or I'm not thinking correctly in order to understand the topic, but let me share a quick (relevant) story.

When I was attending grad school for a chemistry degree, we candidates had to have a four person faculty committee. This committee would judge our thesis defense and all of our presentations over the four years. The regulations were that the four members were:

1. Our thesis advisor
2. Another professor in the same specialty (organic chemistry)
3. Another professor in the same general area (chemistry)
4. A professor from the University but in a different field (mechanical engineering, in my case)

I sent my thesis (300+ pages) to member #4 in preparation for my thesis defense. She replied that she was definitely not going to bother reading the document, because it was so far outside her field that she probably couldn't understand much of it anyway, it being a highly technical document with a lot of specialized vocabulary. She asked that I send her a one page email that clearly + concisely outlined a real world application of my research, and for me to explain to her in an educated but simple to understand manner how my research would enable / make possible this actual application. To do so, she argued, would show that I had a very high level of understanding of the material, and would also make things accessible to her.

That's what I asked for months ago in this thread: an example of what OM could do, broken down into simple language. I'm not the only person who has asked for this. In response, I got a quick reply that basically said "this work won't be appreciated in my lifetime, it's too much work for one person to do, etc".

Well, I think that poster was right...I probably won't appreciate this work in my lifetime, either. I'm prepared to think differently - every scientist should be prepared to do that! But I'm going to need a short, easy to understand, result - of some consequence - before I can even make that evaluation.
 
I'd like to keep an open mind about the subject - as I try to do with most subjects - but I have to say, up until this point I haven't yet been convinced of the validity / worthiness of OM. Some may say it's because I don't have the training in mathematics that I need to "get" OM, or I'm not thinking correctly in order to understand the topic, but let me share a quick (relevant) story.

When I was attending grad school for a chemistry degree, we candidates had to have a four person faculty committee. This committee would judge our thesis defense and all of our presentations over the four years. The regulations were that the four members were:

1. Our thesis advisor
2. Another professor in the same specialty (organic chemistry)
3. Another professor in the same general area (chemistry)
4. A professor from the University but in a different field (mechanical engineering, in my case)

I sent my thesis (300+ pages) to member #4 in preparation for my thesis defense. She replied that she was definitely not going to bother reading the document, because it was so far outside her field that she probably couldn't understand much of it anyway, it being a highly technical document with a lot of specialized vocabulary. She asked that I send her a one page email that clearly + concisely outlined a real world application of my research, and for me to explain to her in an educated but simple to understand manner how my research would enable / make possible this actual application. To do so, she argued, would show that I had a very high level of understanding of the material, and would also make things accessible to her.

That's what I asked for months ago in this thread: an example of what OM could do, broken down into simple language. I'm not the only person who has asked for this. In response, I got a quick reply that basically said "this work won't be appreciated in my lifetime, it's too much work for one person to do, etc".

Well, I think that poster was right...I probably won't appreciate this work in my lifetime, either. I'm prepared to think differently - every scientist should be prepared to do that! But I'm going to need a short, easy to understand, result - of some consequence - before I can even make that evaluation.
Thank you for your reply, it helps me to understand your view of how a successful communication about a given subject can be done, and I actually agree with you.

In my opinion the current dichotomy between our Ethical skills and our Logical\Technological skills leading us very quickly to one of the dead ends to the Evolution.

The following document http://www.scribd.com/doc/16547236/EEM briefly describes my motivations and the actual impotence of my work by avoiding as much as possible "(300+ pages) highly technical document with a lot of specialized vocabulary".

Before we deal with http://www.scribd.com/doc/16547236/EEM, please this time answer to the following question by one (or more) of the following answers (please answer to this question by avoiding my work, at this stage):

Do you think that any afford to develop a comprehensive scientific framework, which enables Ethics and formal Logic to be its consistent factors, is important?

Answer A: No.

Answer B: Yes.

Answer C: Your question is not clear enough.

Answer D: I don't know.


Thank you.
 
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Do you think that any afford to develop a comprehensive scientific framework, which enables Ethics and formal Logic to be its consistent factors, is important?


Well, certainly for an effort that works towards developing something that is neither comprehensive nor involving any sort of scientific framework, and that includes no ethics nor formal logic as factors, consistently or otherwise, the answer would be a resounding, "No!"
 
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Before we deal with http://www.scribd.com/doc/16547236/EEM, please this time answer to the following question by one (or more) of the following answers (please answer to this question by avoiding my work, at this stage):

Do you think that any afford to develop a comprehensive scientific framework, which enables Ethics and formal Logic to be its consistent factors, is important?

Answer A: No.

Answer B: Yes.

Answer C: Your question is not clear enough.

Answer D: I don't know.


Thank you.

By avoiding your work (at this stage, like you say), the answer to your question (in my opinion) is B: Yes. I think the development of any new mental framework built sturdily on sound scientific principles is important, and a good thing. It may or may not be a valuable thing, that has to be judged by the ability of the framework to open up new areas of thinking (previously inaccessible) or the ability of the framework to make previously difficult problems simpler.

I'm definitely with you so far - yes, the formation of a new framework of thinking is certainly a worthwhile goal and I applaud you for trying something so ambitious. I'm definitely not convinced, however, that you are coming anywhere near your goal. Which makes me sad :( because you've obviously put a great deal of work into this.

Just from the opening lines of one of your works, I read something similar to this (pardon the paraphrasing): "Without combining ethics and logic into one framework, I am afraid that mankind will not survive the effects of Nature" - something to that effect, anyways. If your theory is going to have such a dramatic effect on our society, that it's literally going to be our saviour, surely there must be some tangible effect of your theory that you can point to - even at this early stage of development. Something that is so profoundly new and powerful that it hints at the promise of great things to come. Something that transcends pure mathematics and whose worth is obvious to everyone. That's what I've been after, is that one example that makes everyone stop and say "...wow".
 
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By avoiding your work (at this stage, like you say), the answer to your question (in my opinion) is B: Yes. I think the development of any new mental framework built sturdily on sound scientific principles is important, and a good thing. It may or may not be a valuable thing, that has to be judged by the ability of the framework to open up new areas of thinking (previously inaccessible) or the ability of the framework to make previously difficult problems simpler.

I'm definitely with you so far - yes, the formation of a new framework of thinking is certainly a worthwhile goal and I applaud you for trying something so ambitious. I'm definitely not convinced, however, that you are coming anywhere near your goal. Which makes me sad :( because you've obviously put a great deal of work into this.

Just from the opening lines of one of your works, I read something similar to this (pardon the paraphrasing): "Without combining ethics and logic into one framework, I am afraid that mankind will not survive the effects of Nature" - something to that effect, anyways. If your theory is going to have such a dramatic effect on our society, that it's literally going to be our saviour, surely there must be some tangible effect of your theory that you can point to - even at this early stage of development. Something that is so profoundly new and powerful that it hints at the promise of great things to come. Something that transcends pure mathematics and whose worth is obvious to everyone. That's what I've been after, is that one example that makes everyone stop and say "...wow".
Do you think that the current dichotomy between our Ethical skills and our Logical\Technological skills leading us to one of the dead ends to the Evolution?
 
By avoiding your work (at this stage, like you say), the answer to your question (in my opinion) is B: Yes. I think the development of any new mental framework built sturdily on sound scientific principles is important, and a good thing. It may or may not be a valuable thing, that has to be judged by the ability of the framework to open up new areas of thinking (previously inaccessible) or the ability of the framework to make previously difficult problems simpler.

I'm definitely with you so far - yes, the formation of a new framework of thinking is certainly a worthwhile goal and I applaud you for trying something so ambitious. I'm definitely not convinced, however, that you are coming anywhere near your goal. Which makes me sad :( because you've obviously put a great deal of work into this.

Just from the opening lines of one of your works, I read something similar to this (pardon the paraphrasing): "Without combining ethics and logic into one framework, I am afraid that mankind will not survive the effects of Nature" - something to that effect, anyways. If your theory is going to have such a dramatic effect on our society, that it's literally going to be our saviour, surely there must be some tangible effect of your theory that you can point to - even at this early stage of development. Something that is so profoundly new and powerful that it hints at the promise of great things to come. Something that transcends pure mathematics and whose worth is obvious to everyone. That's what I've been after, is that one example that makes everyone stop and say "...wow".
Here is my main claim (I think that it is very simple and no "wow" is involved here):
doronshadmi said:
It is well known that one of the most powerful tools that our civilization uses is The Mathematical Science.

One of the main reasons of the efficiency of this science is the universal principles that stand at its foundations.

Because of these universal principles our civilization achieved its current technology, but the motivations and use of these technologies are not based on universal principles.

In my opinion non-universal principles that are fragmented to different cultures, religions, nations etc… + technology that is derived from universal principles, is a very dangerous cocktail that may lead us to self-made destruction.

In my opinion one of the ways to reduce the chance of self-made destruction is to define a universal framework that may be used as a common base ground for both Ethics and Logical reasoning.


Do you think that the current dichotomy (as claimed above) between our Ethical skills and our Logical\Technological skills can lead us to one of the dead ends to the Evolution?
 
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Here is my main claim (I think that it is very simple and no "wow" is involved here):



Do you think that the current dichotomy (as claimed above) between our Ethical skills and our Logical\Technological skills can lead us to one of the dead ends to the Evolution?

I think that anytime there is a mismatch between ethics and technology, there is the potential for trouble. Some of the worst horrors of the last century were carried out by very unlikely people. Some genuinely had good intentions, and then technology made things too easy and too quick, and very quickly those good intentions turned into bad intentions - sort of a slippery slope. They didn't have the ethical background needed to be able to say not only "How can we do this?" but also "Should we do this?". To paraphrase a saying I've heard before, "If you give someone the power of a God, you better hope they have the wisdom and morals of a God to match".

So yes...speaking very generally, I recognize that we're at a difficult point for our society. We're experiencing these technological growing pains when the line between good and bad becomes a little muddled, and sometimes it's not completely clear if a given technology should be pursued or not, or if it's "right" to pursue a certain area of research.

That's speaking about technology. Hard, rock-solid examples - don't give a maniac a gun, sort of thing. Don't release genetically-engineered mosquitos into the wild in order to more efficiently spread a vaccine, because you have no idea what the consequences might be.

What I fail to see, is how any of this has anything to do with mathematics. I agree that there is often a disconnect between ethics and actions, and that it could and often does cause great harm. I don't see how mathematics enters into this at all. You talk about combining ethics and logic - I don't necessarily agree that they should be combined, even if they could be. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be (see examples above). I would support any effort that places more weight on the side of considering ramifications of actions that are taken, so long as it doesn't unduly slow down the progress of science (we can't discuss things in committee for 150 years - we have to move forwards).

It seems that I'm not seeing the connection here, I'd appreciate some help. Ethics and mathematics, being combined? Why? Spend more time on ethics, if needed - if there are ethical questions / debates in mathematics, and I don't know if there are or not. Give ethics its due consideration and respect, taking everything into account, and then make a decision as to whether the research / project / technology should be pursued, and to what extent. Then, switch 100% of your effort into reaching that goal, or preventing yourself from doing anything along those lines, depending on what your ethical reasoning tells you is proper. Even if ethics and mathematics / logic could be combined - and I'm a far way away from being convinced that they could be - you'd have this weird amalgam, and I don't see how it would bring anything new to the table. I also don't see how it would help a person function better. If anything, it seems to be clouding the waters.
 
Why are you "far way away from being convinced that they could be"?

Because they're two different animals. Ethics answers questions about morality - whether something is morally right or wrong, good or bad. Mathematics doesn't answer questions about morality, it simply is. Math tells me that c^2=a^2 + b^2, but it doesn't tell me whether it's a "good" thing or an "evil" thing that c^2 has that value.

So we have two things that are fundamentally different, and we're trying to mix them. In chemistry, we usually need some degree of compatibility in order to mix two things together, or they separate. Trying to mix math and ethics would seem to be a similar situation. And as I say, if you did manage to mix them together, would it be any more valuable than the two components separately? Or would it just be a hopeless mixture of noncompatible parts?
 
Because they're two different animals. Ethics answers questions about morality - whether something is morally right or wrong, good or bad. Mathematics doesn't answer questions about morality, it simply is. Math tells me that c^2=a^2 + b^2, but it doesn't tell me whether it's a "good" thing or an "evil" thing that c^2 has that value.
That's not true. Mathematics, especially the Pythagorean theorem, does address the issue of mortality:
Pythagoras’ religious and scientific views were, in his opinion, inseparably interconnected. Religiously, Pythagoras was a believer of metempsychosis. He believed in transmigration, or the reincarnation of the soul again and again into the bodies of humans, animals, or vegetables until it became immortal. His ideas of reincarnation were influenced by ancient Greek religion. Heraclides Ponticus reports the story that Pythagoras claimed that he had lived four lives that he could remember in detail, and, according to Xenophanes, Pythagoras heard the cry of his dead friend in the bark of a dog.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras#Religion_and_science

Btw, I never use the omnipresent Pythagorean theorem, coz it was conceived by a delusional pagan freak who obviously couldn't think straight and so the formula and its proof is very likely wrong. Religion, science and mathematics simply don't mix - I trust the opinion of the top thinkers:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221346
 
Because they're two different animals. Ethics answers questions about morality - whether something is morally right or wrong, good or bad. Mathematics doesn't answer questions about morality, it simply is. Math tells me that c^2=a^2 + b^2, but it doesn't tell me whether it's a "good" thing or an "evil" thing that c^2 has that value.

So we have two things that are fundamentally different, and we're trying to mix them. In chemistry, we usually need some degree of compatibility in order to mix two things together, or they separate. Trying to mix math and ethics would seem to be a similar situation. And as I say, if you did manage to mix them together, would it be any more valuable than the two components separately? Or would it just be a hopeless mixture of noncompatible parts?
Do you think that Mathematics is based on universal principles?
 
Pythagorean theorem is named after Greek philosopher and mathematician Pythagoras, even though he wasn't the one who conceived the formula that computes the length of the hypothenuse of a right angled triangle - he just promoted it, coz his friend who actually made the discovery lacked the necessary credibility for that task. The history tells us that . . .
Pythagoras’ religious and scientific views were, in his opinion, inseparably interconnected. Religiously, Pythagoras was a believer of metempsychosis. He believed in transmigration, or the reincarnation of the soul again and again into the bodies of humans, animals, or vegetables until it became immortal. His ideas of reincarnation were influenced by ancient Greek religion. Heraclides Ponticus reports the story that Pythagoras claimed that he had lived four lives that he could remember in detail, and, according to Xenophanes, Pythagoras heard the cry of his dead friend in the bark of a dog.
A detailed account of the highlighted further tells us . . .

Bark! Bark! Pyth! Bark!

:confused:

Bark! Hey, Pyth! Don't you recognize me?

Pitus Bullus! Is that you?

Of course it's me. I'm so glad that I've found you. I did some thinking, you know. Just check this out:

d2 = o2 + g2.
 
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My view is close some how to Sam Harris' view about Ethics and Science (I disagree with Sam Harris about Free will if he gets it at the level of thoughts).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_(author)

http://lifewithoutfaith.com/?p=3384

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More about Free will

Actually as long as one's awareness is at the level of thoughts (and this is how Sam Harris gets awareness, for example: "This, he thinks, is intuitive; "trains of thought...convey the apparent reality of choices, freely made. But from a deeper perspective...thoughts simply arise (what else could they do?)" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Landscape:_How_Science_Can_Determine_Human_Values )), he\she is not aware of their calm source, which is the simplest state of awareness. Without being aware of the simplest state of awareness, one has no actual Free will because any aware thought has a finer level of unaware thought, so actual awareness (and actual Free will) is achieved only from the finest level of awareness, which is naturally free of thoughts (the finest level of awareness is not itself a thought).

Thoughts are infinitely many possible expressions of Free will, which is actually achieved only if one's awareness transcendents the level of expressions and directly aware of the finest level of awareness, which is not itself a thought.
 
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No it isn't, Sam Harris makes no self-contradictory "belongs to AND does not belong to" claims. Stop lying Doron and stop simply trying to conflate your self-contradictory nonsense with work done by others.

e = m*c2
conflat+e = m*c2 = a2+b2
 
So in other words Doron, you *don't* have a simple, easy to understand example that a normal, well educated but ordinary individual (myself) would find truly amazing.

Thanks, that's all I needed to know...

P.S. You may want to tone down some of the opening paragraphs of your documents, because I was expecting something much more, and I'm sure others were as well.

Onwards!
 
So in other words Doron, you *don't* have a simple, easy to understand example that a normal, well educated but ordinary individual (myself) would find truly amazing.

Thanks, that's all I needed to know...

P.S. You may want to tone down some of the opening paragraphs of your documents, because I was expecting something much more, and I'm sure others were as well.

Onwards!
PiedPiper, you did not answer to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7689633&postcount=19 , which can lead you to get things that are truly amazing, exactly because they are so close to you until your awareness misses them.

For example, if one tries to get the following paragraphs only at the level of thoughts
doronshadmi said:
Without being aware of the simplest state of awareness, one has no actual Free will because any aware thought has a finer level of unaware thought, so actual awareness (and actual Free will) is achieved only from the finest level of awareness, which is naturally free of thoughts (the finest level of awareness is not itself a thought).
doronshadmi said:
Thoughts are infinitely many possible expressions of Free will, which is actually achieved only if one's awareness transcendents the level of expressions and directly aware of the finest level of awareness, which is not itself a thought.
he/she is not directly aware of the finest level of awareness, which is not itself a thought and it is the actual (and non-subjective) source of Free will.

The level of thoughts is like a map that guides you to some actual place, but you do not reach the actual place at the level of the map.

In order to reach the actual place you have to go beyond the level of the map.

The same case is about thoughts, they are like a map, but in order to reach their non-subjective source your awareness has to transcendent them in order to directly reach the simplest state of awareness, which is itself not a thought or collection of thoughts.
 
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Ah, not aware of awareness, amazing, and “a finer level of unaware thought” “which is itself not a thought or collection of thoughts”, stupendous. As expected Doron the only thing that remains consistent about your transcendental musing is their self-inconsistency.
 
PiedPiper, you did not answer to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7689633&postcount=19 , which can lead you to get things that are truly amazing, exactly because they are so close to you until your awareness misses them.

For example, if one tries to get the following paragraphs only at the level of thoughts


he/she is not directly aware of the finest level of awareness, which is not itself a thought and it is the actual (and non-subjective) source of Free will.

The level of thoughts is like a map that guides you to some actual place, but you do not reach the actual place at the level of the map.

In order to reach the actual place you have to go beyond the level of the map.

The same case is about thoughts, they are like a map, but in order to reach their non-subjective source your awareness has to transcendent them in order to directly reach the simplest state of awareness, which is itself not a thought or collection of thoughts.

Nicely put:)
 
In addition to post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7694417&postcount=26 , if one uses the following diagram

[qimg]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3296/5721561558_c5b78c3152_b.jpg[/qimg]

one easily gets the difference between being finer (the level of curved lines) and being finest (the level of the straight line).

So your "being finest" is not "being finer"? Your purported difference, attempting to exclude your "being finest" from your "being finer", is simply, explicitly and expectedly self-contradictory. Just to give to a hint "being finest" explicitly asserts that it is "being finer" than anything else. As such you explicitly ascribe your own "level of the straight line" to your own "level of curved lines".

I thought Doron was ignoring you, The Man.

Evidently, as usual, he is mainly just ignoring himself and in that deliberate ignorance of himself takes himself as profound, "being finest" without "being finer".


Reminds me of "The Sphinx" from "Mystery Men".


 
So your "being finest" is not "being finer"? Your purported difference, attempting to exclude your "being finest" from your "being finer", is simply, explicitly and expectedly self-contradictory. Just to give to a hint "being finest" explicitly asserts that it is "being finer" than anything else. As such you explicitly ascribe your own "level of the straight line" to your own "level of curved lines".
The study of turbo-superlatives is usually initiated after the number of traffic tickets satisfies the Mosquer-Altarnikoff inequality.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,899019,00.html
 
In addition to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7703657&postcount=28 it must be stressed that no finer curved lines can reach the finest state of straight line, no matter how many finer levels of curved lines are involved.

The transition between a collection of curved lines and a straight line is always resulted by a finite amount of such collection.

This finite amount is exactly the naturally open (and therefore non-entropic) space for ever finer levels of curved lines that can't be (can't reach the state of) a straight line.

Also the transition between curved or straight line and a point, is always resulted by a finite amount of points (there is no homeomorphism between 0-dimensional space and 1-dimensioanl space).

So the same principle holds by the inability of collection of points to fully cover a given line (straight or curved), exactly because such collection does not have the power of the continuum of a line, no matter how many point are involved.

Some example: An object is considered as a circle only if pi (circumference\diameter) is found, so by following this reasoning a point or a straight are not circles, so a point is smaller than any circle but it is not the smallest circle, and a straight line is bigger than any circle but it is not the biggest circle.

Exactly as no collection of smaller or bigger circles reach the state of a point or a straight line, so is the case between a collection of curved lines and a straight line, or a collection of points on straight or curved line.

These notions are known only by using verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial skills.
 
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The transition between a collection of curved lines and a straight line is always resulted by a finite amount of such collection.

In this single statement Doron again exposes his lack of understanding of mathematical concepts (limits in this case) and basic mathematical terms (curve). There is not end to his lack of understanding it would seem.

...
These notions are known only by using verbal_symbolic AND visual_spatial skills.

No, these notions are known only to those who use unfounded fabrication as a substitute for knowledge.
 
In addition to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7713240&postcount=35 it must be stressed that "traditional" mathematics (which is actually based on verbal_symbolic skills) can't comprehend the inaccessibility of, for example, any amount of circles to the state of a point (we get a non-finite collection of ever finer convergent circles) or the inaccessibility of any amount of circles to the state of a straight line (we get a non-finite collection of ever wider divergent circles).

Infinite interpolation or extrapolation can't be known by using only verbal_symbolic skills, and unfortunately this is exactly the (in)ability of "traditional" mathematics comprehend this profound subject.

Cantor's awareness, which is closed under the concept of Collection, simply missed the right notion of aleph-0 or omega, which actually transcendent the concept of Collection.

As a result the concept of Collection has no choice but to use the non-elegant garbage can of proper classes.
 
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In addition to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7703657&postcount=28 it must be stressed that no finer curved lines can reach the finest state of straight line, no matter how many finer levels of curved lines are involved.

The transition between a collection of curved lines and a straight line is always resulted by a finite amount of such collection.


Wait, first it was “no finer curved lines can reach the finest state of straight line, no matter how many finer levels of curved lines are involved.”, then it is “The transition between a collection of curved lines and a straight line is always resulted by a finite amount of such collection.”? So which is it never “no matter how many finer levels of curved lines are involved.” or “always” “by a finite amount of such collection”?

Do you seriously propose resolving the self-contradiction of your “being finest” not “being finer” by simply claiming that your “no matter how many” “transition” “is always resulted by a finite amount of such collection”?

As always Doron how can anyone even possibly agree with you when you expressly and empathically just can’t agree with yourself? Simply Disagreeing with yourself again (about your “no matter how many” yet “always” “finite” “transition”) in no way makes your pervious disagreement with yourself (about your “finest” that’s expressly not “finer”) any less, well, disagreeable. The only thing more ridiculous than these self-contradictory assertions is your obvious expectation that the former self-contradictory assertion should somehow mitigate the latter.
 
In addition to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7714133&postcount=37, a reasoning that is based only on verbal_symbolic skills, can't comprehend the result of the transition of finer states to the finest state (which is resulted by a finite collection that no one of its objects is the finest state) and the inaccessibility of finitely or infinitely (which is any amount of) finer states to the finest state (where in the case of infinitely finer states, no transition to the finest state is involved).

Using only Verbal_symbolic_only skills has devastating results on the mathematical science in general, and on the mind of some Verbal_symbolic_only skill(er), in particular.
 
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In addition to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7714133&postcount=37, a reasoning that is based only on verbal_symbolic skills, can't comprehend the result of the transition of finer states to the finest state (which is resulted by a finite collection that no one of its objects is the finest state) and the inaccessibility of finitely or infinitely (which is any amount of) finer states to the finest state (where in the case of infinitely finer states, no transition to the finest state is involved).

Using only Verbal_symbolic_only skills has devastating results on the mathematical science.


Translation: "Even though I make up stuff out of my own ignorance, and it is all horribly, horribly wrong, I can pretend it is correct by declaring it beyond the abilities of anyone who sees it for the junk it is."
 
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