• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yet there's a serious point underlying Wroclaw's post. It's that Holocaust deniers are viewed as virtually on a par with paedophiles by a significant proportion of western society.

The reactions you have provoked here, on multiple threads, bear this out. So this isn't being insulting, it's just a statement of fact, an objective observation.

All Wroclaw did was put it into joke form, which seemed very appropriate given how you had just admitted that you had failed to excite the interest of pro-Palestinian activists.

It makes you wonder what it is about the holocaust that makes people so emotionally committed to it that they'd be as angry at somebody who said six million Jews weren't exterminated as they would at somebody who fondled their four year old in a public restroom.

Now somebody who says the Vikings discovered North America before Columbus, or maybe one of those Flat Earth people--those people are as sick and twisted as pedophiles. But I think deniers are more akin to serial killers--you know, what with they way we murder the memory of the victims by saying they weren't murdered....
 
Sorry, Multivac, I don't believe you, some aspect of your story is false.

There is no way that a rational unbiased human being can learn that the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz was 'created' after the war by the Poles and not be surprised at a minimum. Or learn that the hoax gas chamber at Majdanek has an unbarred plate glass window. Or learn that the stone plaque at Auschwitz saying that 4 million persons were killed there was replaced in 1989 (approx.) by one that says the number is 1.5 million. Anyone who doesn't react with at least confusion if not outright skepticism to those easily verifiable facts is either brain dead or a shill.

Saggy, this is at least the second time you have called me a liar. What part of my "story" don't you believe?

The gas chamber at Auschwitz wasn't "created" after the war, it was re-created after the war as the original had been destroyed. Why is this so hard to understand?

Why would I react with confusion to the number on the sign changing? it seems obvious to me that the original number was an over estimation, and that further research showed the number to be lower than originally thought. I would have been confused if the number had been found to be wrong but the sign hadn't been changed.

I am neither brain dead, nor a shill, I simply do not share your hatred for jews.
 
I have no trouble reconciling the urban myth with Irving's analysis. If what Irving says is true, we have one person (who happens to be Jewish) issuing disinformation. That's not evidence of a conspiracy. I think you and I look at the same thing and see it differently. You see a Jewish conspiracy. I see a wealthy minority influencing our political agenda. Even Nick Terry acknowledges the influence of the Jewish community in shaping the holocaust agenda. It doesn't require any sort of conspiracy to create the myth of the holocaust. It requires, as Butz has said, nothing more than people lying about their enemies. For me, who promotes the holocaust and for what purpose isn't important. What's important for me is what is true and what isn't.

Since you believe the holocaust is the product a Jewish conspiracy, do you believe that anything about it is true? Was the whole thing created out of nothing?

Engaging in semantic games isn't going to get you out of the conspiracy hole. "People lying about their enemies" implies that deliberate, conscious mistruths were put forward. In which case, conspiracy. And that requires some proof to be accepted.

As soon as you say someone is lying, then it is fairly incumbent on you to identify what the precise lies are, otherwise it's simply well-poisoning, and doesn't advance 'the truth' which is supposedly so important to you.

And btw there's no such thing as "the holocaust agenda". The term is completely meaningless. You're conflating about a dozen different issues. For someone who supposedly prizes truth, it says a lot about you that you are so willing to resort to the blancmange mode of argument.
 
It makes you wonder what it is about the holocaust that makes people so emotionally committed to it that they'd be as angry at somebody who said six million Jews weren't exterminated as they would at somebody who fondled their four year old in a public restroom.

Now somebody who says the Vikings discovered North America before Columbus, or maybe one of those Flat Earth people--those people are as sick and twisted as pedophiles. But I think deniers are more akin to serial killers--you know, what with they way we murder the memory of the victims by saying they weren't murdered....
Of course, you are giving less than half the story, aren't you?

Or are you trying to say with a straight face that denial is not tied up with anti-semitism?

There have been, of course, revisions of the death toll in the Holocaust (e.g., Hilberg's 5.1 million Jewish victims) and, to take just one more example of real revisionism, the decision-making for the European-wide program of extermination has been argued over (timing, mechanisms, etc.) - and the work that led to these challenges to earlier historiography was taken as serious historical work, not as something like criminal activity. Because the revisions were based on sound methodology, work with sources, and all the other normal ways history is done. You know that, but write about something else.

And deniers, wrapped up in anti-semitism, often mocking the victims, and many of whom come across as apologists for war crimes and mass murder, well, yes, they are seen by and large as anti-semitic apologists for mass murder, in a special pariah category all their own, to be frank. Because their work is worse than shoddy, it is dishonest - and because they are the ones driven by an agenda.

You can whine and complain all you want, but until you guys do serious history and not some version of "I am not really interested in tracking down Jews who don't wish to be found - so long as they aren't beneath the sandy soil of Treblinka I have no further interest in their welfare, beyond a confidence that their fate has been happy" or "Once all the homogeneous races have been mongrelized into one brown mass and dummed down to the level of the African Negro the Jews will finally be able to control the world. Unfortunately for them this will never happen and Aryan scientists will eventually be able to catalogue the Jew as an extinct species" or "Why are Jews such lying scumbags? maybe one of the jewish posters here can explain why their tribe is so given to making up this kind of crap? Is it just for money, revenge, or is there some kind of pleasure in deceit in and for itself that the jews experience when they lie?" or "How much longer can this shameless creature continue to defend Jewish evil in the world whilst pretending to be a 100% assimilated atheist?" or "The final order for this type of disrespect for a fallen hero of Rudolf Hess’s rank can only have come from the top in Germany. Angela Merkel, is a treacherous red whore and I welcome the rapidly approaching Day of The Rope for all of her kind" or, commenting on the shooting of US Representative Giffords in Arizona, "A Jewish Congresswoman who would not vote to protect Arizona from illegal immigrants, a judge with political aspirations who had allowed a patriotic rancher to be sued by a Mexican organisation for daring to impede illegal’s crossing and destroying land on his ranch, and a child whose mind had already been completely poisoned by her liberal parents. Those people are no loss to any wholesome, principled society."

To see what drives the response to "revisionists," all you need to do is read recent comments on this very board about "an ethnic group, well known for pushing the envelop" or LGR's dishonesty with sources (to take just one example, a day or two ago misquoting Longerich intentionally). Put together mendacity and anti-semitism, throw in a bit of nostalgia for the Third Reich - and, really, you have trouble understanding the negative reaction to what denial offers?
 
Last edited:
The vehement hatred spewed at people who question the holocaust and the ever increasing number of countries that actually outlaw questioning the holocaust don't do anything to reduce my suspicion. Truth doesn't need to be legislated.

It's truly cute how deniers think that use of hyperbole is legitimate when they do it, but woe betide anyone else who might use it.

'ever increasing number of countries' - could we have a graph or table, please, with a proper time line and numbers of countries per year. I don't think anyone has passed any such laws in quite a few years and the number really doesn't seem to be growing. In fact it remains firmly stuck at low double figures vs 180 or so countries worldwide. And many of those that have any such laws legislate against genocide denial as a whole, or prosecute for incitement to racial hatred.

"They are persecuting us!" sounds a lot less convincing when it's perfectly clear that in the US, you're not persecuted at all. You're just ignored and occasionally reviled.
 
I have no trouble reconciling the urban myth with Irving's analysis. If what Irving says is true, we have one person (who happens to be Jewish) issuing disinformation. That's not evidence of a conspiracy. I think you and I look at the same thing and see it differently. You see a Jewish conspiracy. I see a wealthy minority influencing our political agenda. Even Nick Terry acknowledges the influence of the Jewish community in shaping the holocaust agenda. It doesn't require any sort of conspiracy to create the myth of the holocaust. It requires, as Butz has said, nothing more than people lying about their enemies. For me, who promotes the holocaust and for what purpose isn't important. What's important for me is what is true and what isn't.

Since you believe the holocaust is the product a Jewish conspiracy, do you believe that anything about it is true? Was the whole thing created out of nothing?

If what Irving says is true, we have one person (who happens to be Jewish) issuing disinformation.

This disinformation was created by the Jewish Polish Underground working with the World Jewish Congress. The World Jewish Congress worked relentlessly through the war to disseminate disinformation. That's a demonstrated conspiracy.

Since you believe the holocaust is the product a Jewish conspiracy, do you believe that anything about it is true? Was the whole thing created out of nothing?


This is a loaded and idiotic question. No reason to go further but I will ad that the three main components of the holohoax,
1. the Nazis planned and attempted to exterminate the European Jews
2. the Nazis build gas chambers
3. the Nazis killed six million Jews for being Jews
are categorically false. The number of Jews killed by the Nazis solely because they were Jews is zero.

And, I'll add, the USHMM, Yad Vashem, the Auschwitz Museum, are prima facie proof of a Jewish conspiracy to promote the holohoax.
 
This disinformation was created by the Jewish Polish Underground working with the World Jewish Congress. The World Jewish Congress worked relentlessly through the war to disseminate disinformation. That's a demonstrated conspiracy.
.
Might be, if one accepted your these that the information wasn't true was supported by anything except bald assertion.

As it is, your white sheet is showing.
.
This is a loaded and idiotic question. No reason to go further but I will ad that the three main components of the holohoax,
1. the Nazis planned and attempted to exterminate the European Jews
2. the Nazis build gas chambers
3. the Nazis killed six million Jews for being Jews
are categorically false. The number of Jews killed by the Nazis solely because they were Jews is zero.
.
Great, then -- you should have no problems documenting what happened to "Korchak's children".
.
And, I'll add, the USHMM, Yad Vashem, the Auschwitz Museum, are prima facie proof of a Jewish conspiracy to promote the holohoax.
.
No, they are proof of a campaign to educate the public on the topic, thereby countering denier lies about the Holocaust.

You know, like the ones you regularly post here, and never get around to addressing being corrected on?
.
 
Last edited:
This disinformation was created by the Jewish Polish Underground working with the World Jewish Congress. The World Jewish Congress worked relentlessly through the war to disseminate disinformation. That's a demonstrated conspiracy.
(1) What was the disinformation knowingly disseminated as false? And, yes, I mean for you to be specific, showing what was disseminated, when, by whom - and how it can be shown to be false information which those communicating it knew to be false when they communicated it.
The number of Jews killed by the Nazis solely because they were Jews is zero.
(2) We have been discussing mass murders at Ponar. Why were Jews being murdered there in summer and fall 1941? What does the Jaeger report say about this?
 
Last edited:
No reason to go further but I will add that the three main components of the holohoax,
1. the Nazis planned and attempted to exterminate the European Jews
2. the Nazis build gas chambers
3. the Nazis killed six million Jews for being Jews
are categorically false. The number of Jews killed by the Nazis solely because they were Jews is zero.


Were it not for the love that surpasseth all understanding, that is, my love for bacon, I'd convert to Judaism just irritate people like you.

Despite the utility of this thread, Mr. Saggy's quote demonstrates why it should be locked. You could have an incontrovertible fuhrerbefehl and it would still be waved away as faffle...
 
So how many were killed for other reasons?
Perhaps Saggy will lead a discussion on these two terms, judenfrei and judenrein, and what the National Socialists meant by them, the methods by which places became judenfrei or judenrein, the consequences to the people involved, and so on.
 
. . . I will ad that the three main components of the holohoax,
1. the Nazis planned and attempted to exterminate the European Jews
2. the Nazis build gas chambers
3. the Nazis killed six million Jews for being Jews
are categorically false. The number of Jews killed by the Nazis solely because they were Jews is zero.

And, I'll add, the USHMM, Yad Vashem, the Auschwitz Museum, are prima facie proof of a Jewish conspiracy to promote the holohoax.
And, to show the complete idiocy of this statement of Saggy's, I will re-post (with added emphasis) some summaries of what German defendants said about the mass murders on the witness stand at one of the Nuremberg trials:
Testimony at the Einsatzgruppen trial, from the defendants in their defense, would differ to your characterization of the mass slaughter of Jews as anti-partisan, although the defendants tried to offer this defense:

Erwin Schulz, head of EK-5 under Rasch, said the following on the stand:
- the killings of civilians were military actions undertaken in war
- the killings were legal because they didn't violate the international laws of warfare
- he had not heard of a Fuhrer-order for civilian murders in the eastern campaigns, thus his actions were not covered by the Fuhrer's orders
- the order to murder all civilian Jews in the massacres came to him in mid-August 1941 from Otto Rasch (EG-C)

Defendant Willy Seibert (EG-D under Ohlendorf), in questioning about his awareness of the criminality of murdering unarmed civilians, testified as follows at trial:
- he "simply didn't know anymore" what was illegal and what was legal in terms of killings during wartime
- killing based on superior orders during war must not be murder
- still, if ordered by superiors to shoot his parents, "I would not do so . . . it is inhuman to ask a son to shoot his parents," implying that it was not inhuman to ask an Aryan to shoot Jews, his squad having done this

While testifying in the same trial, defendant Werner Braune, who headed EK11b, said
- there was a Fuhrerbefehl to murder Jews
- the reason for Hitler's order was to protect the security of Germany because "Jews in the East were the decisive bearers of communism and its illegal manner of fighting"
- "the vast majority [of Jews] supported Bolshevism"
- true, if the majority of Jews supported Bolshevism, a minority didn't
- the minority of Jews not supporting Bolshevism was "ten, twenty, or thirty percent"
- these Jewish non-supporters of Bolshevism were killed along with the supporters of Bolshevism because, when it came to saving them, "the possibility did not exist"

Defendant Adolf Ott (EK 7b) testified that
- his Kommando shot only Jews who were proven to be engaged in partisan actions or sabotage
- despite this stipulation, "every Jew who was apprehended had to be shot. Never mind whether he was a perpetrator or not."
 
Last edited:
And, to show the complete idiocy of this statement of Saggy's, I will re-post (with added emphasis) some summaries of what German defendants said about the mass murders on the witness stand at one of the Nuremberg trials:

If we accept testimony as proof, then I can show you plenty of proof that aliens landed in the US midwest in large numbers in the 1950s.

You have to start with the bodies. For example, the massacres committed by the NKVD at Katyn and Vinnitsa are well documented by excavations and forensic investigations. However the hoax Nazi massacre at Babi Yar is documented only by testimony, much of which is contradictory and absurd on its face.

The holohoax cannot produce a single body of a gassed Jew. It cannot produce a single credible Jewish eyewitness. The 'physical evidence', the hoax gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek, is absurd on its face. It is a complete hoax.
 
If we accept testimony as proof, then I can show you plenty of proof that aliens landed in the US midwest in large numbers in the 1950s.

You have to start with the bodies. For example, the massacres committed by the NKVD at Katyn and Vinnitsa are well documented by excavations and forensic investigations. However the hoax Nazi massacre at Babi Yar is documented only by testimony, much of which is contradictory and absurd on its face.

The holohoax cannot produce a single body of a gassed Jew. It cannot produce a single credible Jewish eyewitness. The 'physical evidence', the hoax gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek, is absurd on its face. It is a complete hoax.
Of course, we do not have to start with the bodies. Of course, as I have linked earlier to work done by Roberto Muehlenkamp on remains at execution sites, you ignore physical evidence of mass murder. Of course, we do not accept just any witness statements as proof; we correlate multiple witness statements and we correlate testimony with documents and physical evidence. Of course, repeating that there is not a single credible Jewish witness (as though witnesses should be divided into Jews and non-Jews!) and your mantra about hoax gas chambers, ignoring the facts (which you have been told repeatedly), may make you believe yourself but is certainly not persuasive to anyone examining the documentation and other sources.

So, since you know all this, what do you make of the testimony at the Einsatzgruppen trial? Why did EG leaders testify as they did? What did the documentary evidence show?
 
If we accept testimony as proof, then I can show you plenty of proof that aliens landed in the US midwest in large numbers in the 1950s.

But, as pointed out by me before and by Nick yesterday, there is no alien testimony and no alien documents. Therefore, it's a false comparison.

You have to start with the bodies. For example, the massacres committed by the NKVD at Katyn and Vinnitsa are well documented by excavations and forensic investigations.

Two investigations both carried out by a very politically motivated government. Why should we accept them?

However the hoax Nazi massacre at Babi Yar is documented only by testimony, much of which is contradictory and absurd on its face.

Please demonstrate "contradictory" testimony about Babi Yar.

The holohoax cannot produce a single body of a gassed Jew.

That you would accept.

It cannot produce a single credible Jewish eyewitness.

That you would accept.

The 'physical evidence', the hoax gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek, is absurd on its face.

You're not allowed to limit the scope of evidence under discussion. If I want to discuss the myriad forms of evidence proving that Krema II had a gas chamber that was used extensively, proving that relies on neither the gas chamber at Auschwitz I nor the gas chambers at Majdanek.

It is a complete hoax.

Good thing you don't repeat yourself.
 
Yes, I'd like to hear Saggy discuss the evidence at the Einsatzgruppen trial. But remember: The Holocaust on the Eastern front is not his forté.
 
Yes, I'd like to hear Saggy discuss the evidence at the Einsatzgruppen trial. But remember: The Holocaust on the Eastern front is not his forté.
Which doesn't stop him from denying it and doing his "see no evil, hear no evil" act when confronted by sources for it.
 
Also, kinda evokes the question of what other Holocaust there really was other than the one of the Eastern Front. I understand there were deportations and sporadic massacres elsewhere, but the brunt of the Holocaust took place on the Nazi-Soviet front and its environs. That's Holocaust 101, but it seems to be beyond Saggy's ken.
 
If we accept testimony as proof, then I can show you plenty of proof that aliens landed in the US midwest in large numbers in the 1950s.

You have to start with the bodies. For example, the massacres committed by the NKVD at Katyn and Vinnitsa are well documented by excavations and forensic investigations. However the hoax Nazi massacre at Babi Yar is documented only by testimony, much of which is contradictory and absurd on its face.

The holohoax cannot produce a single body of a gassed Jew. It cannot produce a single credible Jewish eyewitness. The 'physical evidence', the hoax gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek, is absurd on its face. It is a complete hoax.
Also, you forgot to reply to these 2 questions:

(1) What was the disinformation knowingly disseminated as false? And, yes, I mean for you to be specific, showing what was disseminated, when, by whom - and how it can be shown to be false information which those communicating it knew to be false when they communicated it.

(2) We have been discussing mass murders at Ponar. Why were Jews being murdered there in summer and fall 1941? What does the Jaeger report say about this?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom