First of all, you are the one who keeps using the d-word. If you want to convince people that Nazi Germany had a policy of exterminating all the Jews, you need evidence of that. Not evidence that they were deported.
Stop being silly. By 1942, and in a great many cases, Jews from many places in Europe were brought to the place of execution by deportation. The trains were taking victims in their 1000s to death camps. If you don't know this part of the "official" story, you are worse off than I imagined.
This is not to say that every transport went to a death camp or that, even by 1942, the only means of death was gassing. Open-air shootings, for example, continued - and re-escalated, for example, in Belorussia. But deportation was a step in the extermination process for over 2.5 million Jews.
Your little "deportation versus death" game is both silly and a dead-end. You are either deeply ignorant of the "official" story - or trolling pathetically.
If you want to ask "where did they all go?" and you want an answer more substantial than "they went the same place the two and half million Auschwitz victims went in 1989" you need to provide evidence they were there to start with.
Not exactly. You need to show why the census and other population data are wrong, if you want to make the case that large numbers of Jews were not in Vilna, Lodz, Warsaw, Kiev, and Riga. There are good estimates of the numbers of Jews in each of these cities for various times throughout WW2. If you doubt them, please show us why and correct the demographers and historians.
You seem to doubting, to take one example we have been discussing, that 60,000+ Jews lived in Vilna in June 1941. If you are, please state that you are and explain why. Here is my take on Vilna, which you will also need to keep in mind:
The Germans' 403rd Security Division recorded 80,000 Jews in Vilno when it occupied the city in July 1941 - probably an overestimate but clearly indicating that 10s of 1000s of Jews lived in Vilna at the time. And Jaeger's maths have 21,000+ Jews murdered by EK 3 from 8 August to end of November. So, understanding your gambit, picked up from denier literature, the game "were Jews there in the first place?" runs into a little difficulty in Vilna and the other cities you won't discuss. In the case of Vilna, as you can see, it is that various census data, summarized in Arad and elsewhere AND German sources put the number of Jews in the city when the Germans occupied it at over 60,000 - and that various German and other sources give specific numbers of Jews reduced, let's say, from that starting population. That is what you need to deal with, not your other confused speculation.
Team holocaust has failed completely in providing an accounting of the Jews in Europe before the war and after the war.
I don't know about Team Holocaust or the discussion you refer to. At any rate, you are bringing up something you and I haven't discussed - I would prefer we go through Vilna and the four other cities I mentioned before we get too far afield. As you recall, I asked you in detail about Vilna and the four other cities; I did that for a purpose, which was to have a focused discussion where we can look at a manageable number of sources. Before you confuse yourself, let's stick with those examples. Heck, I'd be happy if you could focus on Vilna and finish that discussion properly before we move onto Lodz, Warsaw, Kiev, and Riga. Again, we have seen that more than 60,000 Jews lived in Vilna in June 1941 and that Karl Jaeger accounted for 21,000+ deaths - and other German documents add to that total. Kindly explain the fate of these Jews, which I estimated to be 33,000 in number. If my maths are off, show me where - keeping in mind that you are contending with German as well as other sources.
See, you simply don't have any meaningful population statistics upon which you can estimate Jewish population losses.
What I see is lots of waffle from you and your continuing to dodge questions about specific cases. Everyone else sees it too - I am guessing even you are aware that you are dodging. You keep trying to run away from the Jaeger Report, what happened to Jews in specific cities, and your own claims by changing the subject and muddying the waters. Fail.
So for the moronic "where did they go?" gambit to have any relevance you need to provide an one-to-one accounting of the Jewish population showing us where the Jews who survived went so we know who is missing and who isn't.
No. First, there is no gambit. You claimed that the Jews were "removed from Europe" - I simply asked the next logical question, "To where?" To help focus the discussion, I named five cities in which the Jewish population was greatly reduced during the war years. You can dispute this observation - but you can't dispute it by discussing Hungary and European demographics; you have to discuss the specifics of each city. So I offered to start easy, with just Vilna. I laid out my understanding of the data and am happy to source in more detail whatever you'd like. I also showed that German sources alone tally a reduction in 1941 of Vilna's Jewish population by close to 30,000 - and putting these sources together with others we get to 33,000. I explained that Jaeger and Stahlecker, both German officers, described the means of reduction as shootings, not removal to somewhere from Europe.
Second, I do not have to do a one-to-one accounting of anything. We can keep at the level of summation and have a reasonable and meaningful discussion about this. Of course, there are lists of Jews missing from Vilna, but we do not have to go into each individual. We can certainly dig into a sample of individual cases. But to begin with, you have to show the problems with the census and German population estimates for Vilna. Again, keep in mind that the 403rd Security Division put the number of Vilna Jews at 80,000 in June 1941 - and that Jaeger put the number at 15,000 in December 1941. Jewish sources are more "favorable" to the Nazis - putting the Jewish population at around 57,000 - 60,000 when the Germans occupied Vilna and estimating about 20,000 Jewish residents in December 1941. That in weeks and weeks of this you have been unable to come up with a single specific or intelligent hint of where these 37,000 - 40,000 "missing" Jews went - and try covering up with bluster about pre- and post-war counts of Jews across Europe - is telling.
Third, if (and I realize that your focusing on this and giving a specific answer is very unlikely), if you do try to explain the fate of Vilna's Jews, I have also asked that you tell us how you derived your thinking. This means that you have to do more than suppose or speculate about what might have happened - you have to provide sources (data, witness accounts, documents, etc.) and, given that the Jaeger and Stahlecker reports exist, not to mention witness accounts, all of these, every single bit of evidence we've discussed so far contrary to your speculation and claims, you also need to show what these documents tell us and why the way historians have interpreted them is wrong. You seem to be doing all you can to avoid giving your alternative account, your sources for it, and your explanation of the sources I've cited. I know why. So do you.
You are grasping at straws here, and I think you know it. Posting answers, cribbed from denier claims, to another discussion (about European demographics) in place of replying to my specific questions about Vilna and four other cities is really bottom of the barrel. If you don't know what happened in Vilna and elsewhere, you are safer sticking with your previous reply: "I don't know and I don't care" is how it went, IIRC.
